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Author Topic: Gaming Sad Puppies Was Re: Cool Stuff You've Seen Outside of 40kOnline  (Read 3288 times)

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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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If the Sad Puppies reviewed books

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What is this fallen world even coming to. First we had science fiction books with stuff that no one cares about in them alongside the spaceships but now the clique of SJW bullies has decreed we must put up with science fiction books that donít even have the spaceships in them.

The hell with that! I say we break the clique and make it so that anyone can read any book they want, and then books like this wonít exist anymore.

Reading this book it is obvious that the author was relying more on demographic appeal than quality storytelling, a fact that is only confirmed when you realize that The Little Prince was written by a Frenchman. It is well-known that the French have been Stalinists ever since they were conquered by Hitler. Did you know that Hitler was a leftist? They teach kids in school that Fascism is the opposite of Stalinism but Hitler and Stalin agreed to carve up the world between them and they would have got away with it if it wasnít for Godís America.

Also - http://www.alexandraerin.com/2015/05/sprb-the-monster-at-the-end-of-this-book/
« Last Edit: May 6, 2015, 04:50:20 PM by The GrimSqueaker »
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Offline Wyddr

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Oh, God, don't get me started on the whole Sad Puppies thing. It was pretty much all anybody talked about when I was out in LA.

Eric Flint has the right of it.

In short: the Puppies are idiots, none of this ultimately makes any difference, and getting a Hugo award (while nice) is nowhere near as important as actually selling books. Everybody should put on their big boy pants (to borrow Scalzi's phrase) and just nominate whoever they think is best and vote accordingly, end-of.

Offline Sir_Godspeed

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I read a little bit about before I realized it's yet another pointless storm-in-a-cup "controversy" that I honestly can't be bothered wasting my energy on, like #GamerGate (which, I'll admit, I have some sympathy for, but far from enough to die defending their omnishambles of a hill).

Offline Wyddr

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Gamergate is a totally different kettle of fish. That's an organized campaign of rather unsavoury chap, what-ho old bean?s sending death threats to women because said women have refused to submit to their supposed "role" in society.

The Sad Puppies are a bunch of conservatives wishing scifi was all about white men in space (or, more broadly, things exploding in space, usually featuring white men) and organizing a voting slate for the Hugos which, while perhaps not in the spirit of the award, isn't expressly criminal or villainous. That subhuman troglodytes like Vox Day have sought to make alliance with them is unseemly, but the leaders of the movement (Torgersen, Corriea), while disagreeable, do not rise to the level of the Gamergaters by any measure.

Offline Sir_Godspeed

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Gamergate is a totally different kettle of fish. That's an organized campaign of rather unsavoury chap, what-ho old bean?s sending death threats to women because said women have refused to submit to their supposed "role" in society.

Honestly, it's mostly confused straight guys of varied degrees of paranoia towards anyone directing a sociocritical view at video games. Like most other things born on 'chan message boards they're not really organized beyond smaller cliques, along certain self-appointed spokespeople, and ultimately after a (very) vaguely defined hashtag.

The anger is definitely gendered, regardless of what some apologists may claim (but that's been going on since before Gamergate, Anita Sarkeesian's nightmare goes back to 2012, and, just as an example, online atheist communities have been griping over feminists entering their largely male-dominated forums for a good while, culminating in large controversies around 2011,) but the problem with these kinds of amorphous "movements" is that whenever issues of doxxing and threats arise, assigning guilt becomes a headache, since certain segments of the "movement" will strongly condemn these actions, while others relish in them and push on for more, and there is no leadership to actually enforce an agenda or proclaim a platform.

Heck, I saw long threads on GamerGate related boards on reddit fully convinced that third party members had been doing the doxxing just to give them a bad name, or the even more insanely paranoid, that the women doxxed had done it themselves to get sympathy (the poster of the doxxed details was repeatedly told to go beslubber themselves). However, with that kind of self-proclaimed total lack of liability, that's when you leave the arena open for its detractors to define the "movement's" rason d'etre and its public image.

Here's probably the most level-headed assesment of the group/blob/thing (and while it agrees with some of the criticisms directed towards online journalism, it's not particularly positive):

I Was Summoned by #GamerGate; Hereís What I Saw | | Observer

Anyways, seems like at least one prominent GamerGate proponent has been identified as being in on the attempt to hijack the Hugos (Theodore Beale aka Vox Day), and I'd honestly be surprised if the overlap wasn't at least somewhat prominent.
« Last Edit: May 9, 2015, 08:52:12 AM by Sir_Godspeed »

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Correia directly contacted Gamergate for support.

Sinboy on Twitter: "Just in case it's deleted, here's Correia courting
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Offline Wyddr

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Correia directly contacted Gamergate for support.

Sinboy on Twitter: "Just in case it's deleted, here's Correia courting

Blerg. Wasn't aware of that, in particular.

@Godspeed: I've yet to hear much in the way of honest criticism of the media from Gamer Gaters, myself. Mostly just the death threats and misogyny. Of course, I'm only a casual observer. 

Offline Sir_Godspeed

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@Godspeed: I've yet to hear much in the way of honest criticism of the media from Gamer Gaters, myself. Mostly just the death threats and misogyny. Of course, I'm only a casual observer.

Eh... It's a fairly jumbled mess, due to the reasons outlined before. If I'm to distill the criticisms to a few simple points (most of which are raised by more eloquent people than #GG in my opinion), I'd do something like this:

- Online gaming review sites are sustained by ads for the same games that they are reviewing. This creates an essentially perpetual conflict of interests.

- There is a widespread culture in gaming journalism for reviewers and journalists to receive gifts and "goody bags" as part of their review accesses, again, this might raise questions of bribery.

- There is allegedly widespread coordination of talking points aiming for a reviewing paradigm-shift with more sociocultural elements of a cultural-liberal/progressive ideology between sites as supposedly revealed by some leaked e-mails (which I haven't bothered reading) and the large amount of articles that declared "Gamers to be a dead identity" following the harassment controversy of Zoey Quinn. Kotaku, Gamasutra, Buzzfeed, Destructoid and Polygon all released articles expressing similar sentiments to each other on the same day (28th of August, 2014). #GG-members took this as verification of the point made above (that there is a deliberate agenda and an aim at creating a specific discourse), and they interpret it as being reviews less on behalf on the consumer, and they feel that there is a loss of "objectivity". (needless to say, this is an area of much contention. What is objectivity anyway? Is that even possibly or desireable? What about consumers who consider sociocultural considerations to be important to their purchase? Etc. etc.)

I'm sure there are tons of others, but as noted before, I haven't dug extremely deep and the whole ordeal mostly depresses me. I do have some sympathies with these issues, but I don't care enough to wade into it - as pointed out in my first post on the matter. :P


Also Wyddr, sorry for derailing your adulations with this mire of crap. :)

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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As someone who has been following it as more than a casual observer, the issue wasn't the claims but what was done about them. As Wyddr mentioned, it wasn't, and still isn't, pretty. Essentially GG rapidly turned into their own version of an Animal Wrongs group. The message gets lost when it's wrapped around a brick thrown threw your window.

I'll split the thread so people wanting happy fun times don't have to wade through this.
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Offline Sir_Godspeed

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I agree with that. I don't think any sane observer disagrees. I was just asked if there was any cogently formed criticism within the movement, and I pointed out what I knew.

Offline Wyddr

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Eric Flint continues to kick ass and take names.

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But you know what? I never once pissed and moaned and groaned about it. I took it for granted because I knew from the outset that if you set yourself in really sharp opposition to the powers-that-be ó Iím talking about the real Powers-That-Be ó you are bound to pay a price for it. Thatís been true in every society back to the Stone Age. I know it ó and every real fighter for social justice knows it.

          So shut up. Listening to you right-wingers piss and moan about being victimized because you donít get nominated for Hugo awards is tiresome. You are the biggest wusses who ever walked the face of the earth.

Oh snap!

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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He speaks as a person who's been beaten up, attacked, and arrested for his political beliefs at that.
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Offline Sir_Godspeed

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I've never really taken the time to look into the system of the Hugo Awards, but aren't they literally a popularity contest for paying members?

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Disclaimer - I've been a voting member for a few years.

You have to be a paid member to vote in the current year. Get in early and you're able to nominate and vote for the current year. No pay, not vote.

You don't have to appear at the con to vote, merely be an associate member (like I am).

I've never really taken the time to look into the system of the Hugo Awards, but aren't they literally a popularity contest for paying members?

Just like many other awards. Can you vote on the Oscars?
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If you can't make fun of something, it's probably not worth taking seriously.

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Offline Spectral Arbor

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Next year's awards should have a category for the biggest downer of a thread. I think that this springing from Cool Stuff from outside 40k should be the initial nominee.

Or instead of a downer, the thread that took the sharpest turn into a dark alley. Something like that? :)

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Well, it was moved from the Tavern and the originating and the moving were both my actions.

I think we can just say, all together, This is Why we Can't Have Nice Things.
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Offline Spectral Arbor

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In all fairness, my previous post is spammy. Not that I have much to add, but I'll give it a shot.

My personal interest in awards being given out is that it helps me to find things that other people find interesting / awesome. It helps to make a shorter list of, "What should I be looking at?" Books in particular. I mean, you can't judge a book by its cover, but how else are you going to pick what to read unless you read it and then decide?

I don't want to waste my time on something. I don't have enough. Only an estimated 50 years or so left. So I look at awards / top 10 lists for ideas. Sometimes I'll grab something off the shelf, because the jacket looks cool, but then I'm back to hoping about a book based on its cover. I guess I know that awards are inherently insular, and that the potential for corruption is there, but I don't have much else to go on. No author is going to put a "bad" review on their jacket, right?

I always kind of liked the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy's view of elections. Anyone capable of getting themselves elected to office is probably the worst person for the job. Better to have unknown, brilliant minds working behind the scenes for the betterment of the Galaxy than some shmuck that people happen to like.

As to GamerGate, it's a sad tale, but not representative of everyone that games. Not that I game, but really you're looking at the same thing most anywhere an opinion is formed. Some people get vocal. They get attention, they seem like a bigger deal than they are. Really, who hasn't issued a death threat on the internet? I know I've gotten plenty of cease and desist orders, myself. ;)

Is it anything new? Disc Jockeys used to get swaged, now they can't. If gaming reviews ever want to become more legit, they'll have to do the same. And swear off the blackjack and hookers. Ah, just forget about the legitness and blackjack.

Is that a pop culture reference, or misogyny? I guess it depends on whether you think I'm a child of the early 80's or not.

PS: I thought that the Sad Puppies thing was satire? Maybe I'm just missing something.

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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PS: I thought that the Sad Puppies thing was satire? Maybe I'm just missing something.

If only. No, it's actually supposed to be a meaningful gesture to restore balance amongst the force  SF & fantasy novels. There are actually two groups who claim separation - the Sad Puppies led by authors Brad R. Torgersen and Larry Correia and then there's the Rabid Puppies which are led by a wretch of a human being who is so far to the right he doesn't think women should vote (no joke). While you mention book covers, that's actually an argument one of them made, that now days you just can't trust a book with space ships on the cover to be about space ship war porn and not a social commentary regarding gender rights, in space.

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Offline Sir_Godspeed

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Disclaimer - I've been a voting member for a few years.

You have to be a paid member to vote in the current year. Get in early and you're able to nominate and vote for the current year. No pay, not vote.

You don't have to appear at the con to vote, merely be an associate member (like I am).

I've never really taken the time to look into the system of the Hugo Awards, but aren't they literally a popularity contest for paying members?

Just like many other awards. Can you vote on the Oscars?

Woah, feel like I touched a nerve there. :P

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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It's an argument that's been made oft times before.  ;) Same as whether one should review the same product as you advertise, it's common across all the industries basically.

Edit
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  Thomas Kratman says:
Fairly? Oh, I don't believe that. Maybe someone does, but that someone is not me. Moreover, anyone who does believe it would believe it anyway, just as anyone who does not never would have. Rather, I am pretty sure that you simply took your hint from any number of SJWs - perhaps the File770 collection - to sabotage the sundry puppies as you were able.

In my case, however, you cannot sabotage anything. Others want Hugos. I want the Hugos utterly destroyed, No Awarded in perpetuity. I want "Aces and Eights." I want the village destroyed and don't care in the slightest about saving it. The best way to accomplish that is for the SJW types to succeed in getting general No Award votes this time around. So make it a one star and vote "no award."

By the way, "Man" _is_ the collective term for humans. I will have no truck with modern day linguistic matricide; I will not cater to Newspeak. Moreover, a librarian, more than most, should be ashamed to be a linguistically matricidal Newspeaker, herself.

Sounds like a pleasant chap.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 06:14:35 PM by The GrimSqueaker »
Quote from: @TracyAuGoGO
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If you can't make fun of something, it's probably not worth taking seriously.

You have to love the smell of science in the morning. It smells of learning.... or perhaps a gas leak.

 


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