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Author Topic: My Old Lists Got Nerfed and I'm Facing Tau  (Read 2309 times)

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Offline Wyldhunt

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My Old Lists Got Nerfed and I'm Facing Tau
« on: February 1, 2014, 05:58:04 PM »
So I haven't been using my dark eldar much lately, but I've missed them.  Unfortunately, my most regular opponent has chosen to pick up Tau for the new edition.  Basic Tau guns can pop my precious raiders at a distance, and my webway portals and wych cult lists have both become relatively hard to use this edition. So! I have a couple questions for my fellow true kin.

A.) Is there a good way to make webway/wych cult lists work this edition? I know wyches haven't gotten worse so much as they've just changed, but against Tau, they still have certain challenges to overcome.

B.)  What have you found works well against Tau?

Offline faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)

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Re: My Old Lists Got Nerfed and I'm Facing Tau
« Reply #1 on: February 2, 2014, 02:36:57 PM »
Our codex forbids raiders that take Retrofire jets to have units disembark after deepstriking - however, Duke simply allows them to DS; hence no such restriction.

I find that WWP lists can work well with this.

So, what your saying is it's not your fault you look stupid by using words you don't get?
Flawless logic.

Offline Galef

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Re: My Old Lists Got Nerfed and I'm Facing Tau
« Reply #2 on: February 2, 2014, 09:39:11 PM »
Our codex forbids raiders that take Retrofire jets to have units disembark after deepstriking - however, Duke simply allows them to DS; hence no such restriction.

Vehicles that DS count as moving Cruising speed. Units can only disembark if a vehicle move Combat speed.

@Wyldhunt: Unfortunaley, Wyches can almost never assault Tau. With their Supporting fire rule, you will get 2-3 units worth of Overwatch. Wyches just can't handle that amount of punishment.

However, Venom spam w/ Night shields can work quite well vs. Tau. You just to make sure to stay outside most of their range weapons (re: Fire warriors) and blast away everything else.

The strength of DE in this edition (and last edition) is MSU (multiple small units). You need to make a list with target saturation. Make sure that whatever kills your units costs twice what that unit did.
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Offline faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)

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Re: My Old Lists Got Nerfed and I'm Facing Tau
« Reply #3 on: February 2, 2014, 10:25:13 PM »

Vehicles that DS count as moving Cruising speed. Units can only disembark if a vehicle move Combat speed.

Double check the DS USR
So, what your saying is it's not your fault you look stupid by using words you don't get?
Flawless logic.

Offline RapierSix2587

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Re: My Old Lists Got Nerfed and I'm Facing Tau
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2014, 11:30:31 PM »
You can't deep strike a vehicle and then charge out of it, ever! otherwise BA Land Raiders could DS then you could charge your 15 strong DC out with a Chaplin.. And no one would allow that, so unless your willing to allow (for example) my BA list with 3 LR Crusaders full of Assault Marines and DC and Terminators, then no.. Your not allowed to do it in any tournament, or even in friendly games, it's against the rules, which by the way, are very clear, I don't now if this forum allows for what page of the rule book it is on, but read up the rules for charge from vehicles, deep striking, and dismounting, I've actually had my DE mate use this on my Tau, needless to say he tries it on everyone

Offline faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)

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Re: My Old Lists Got Nerfed and I'm Facing Tau
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2014, 11:25:05 AM »
You can't deep strike a vehicle and then charge out of it, ever! otherwise BA Land Raiders could DS then you could charge your 15 strong DC out with a Chaplin.. And no one would allow that, so unless your willing to allow (for example) my BA list with 3 LR Crusaders full of Assault Marines and DC and Terminators, then no.. Your not allowed to do it in any tournament, or even in friendly games, it's against the rules, which by the way, are very clear, I don't now if this forum allows for what page of the rule book it is on, but read up the rules for charge from vehicles, deep striking, and dismounting, I've actually had my DE mate use this on my Tau, needless to say he tries it on everyone

When were any of us talking about charging after deepstrike?

The topic was disembarking after deepstrike. Please don't create a straw man for you to attack.


As for the tactic, the idea would be to ds a small wrack squad, with hammey and WWP - disembark, and drop the portal.  Next turn, you have a portal in the enemy back field.
So, what your saying is it's not your fault you look stupid by using words you don't get?
Flawless logic.

Offline RapierSix2587

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Re: My Old Lists Got Nerfed and I'm Facing Tau
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2014, 01:32:35 PM »
I know that, but it is all regarding the same thing, disembarking from vehicles after Deep Striking, is not possible, unless it has a special rule, like Drop Pods! Other then that if you read (all of it too) Pg . 79 and Pg. 43 (haven't got it in front of ms but it's the whole page about Deep Striking, it says that vehicles coins as moving at cruising speed (except walkers, I think) then if you look at the rules for disembarking of Pg. 79 it very clearly states that you cannot dismount a transport if it moves at cruising speed, there very clear about it, no disembarking, no charging (even if it's open topped or has assault ramps, none of it, like I said my mates Duke DE army, he tries that all the time on people, none of the proper players play with him anymore cause he keeps trying to make us let him use it, but yeah, short answer is no you can't use that tactic, not legally of course

So unfortunately that tactic won't work, otherwise it would be over powered (play the big DE Vs. IG game in the back of the rule book with the portal and you will understand why)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 04:12:25 PM by RapierSix2587 »

Offline faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)

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Re: My Old Lists Got Nerfed and I'm Facing Tau
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2014, 10:13:07 PM »
Quote
...deep strike units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deepstriking transport... - pg 36 of the rule book
Emphasis mine.

btw- in my book page 36, not 43 is the deepstrike rule. I am using the large rule book, don't know if that makes a difference.

It does, however, specify that they may not charge.

It does indeed say that they moved at cruising speed, and page 79 give the restrictions for disembarking, but the special rule to allow it is in the rules for the deepstriking itself.

Sorry to say, but your friend is right if he has been deepstriking, and disembarking to deploy a portal.
So, what your saying is it's not your fault you look stupid by using words you don't get?
Flawless logic.

Offline RapierSix2587

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Re: My Old Lists Got Nerfed and I'm Facing Tau
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2014, 10:41:24 PM »
Then does that mean I can Deep Strike my Land Raiders, then deploy my 15 man DC with Bolters to add to the pain? Or Deep Strike my Hades Drill and then have my 5 man Flamer squad dismount and open up? I will have to re read this when I get home, I am sorry if I am wrong, I will let you know later tonight (about 5 - 6 hours)

Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: My Old Lists Got Nerfed and I'm Facing Tau
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2014, 08:29:49 PM »
Then does that mean I can Deep Strike my Land Raiders, then deploy my 15 man DC with Bolters to add to the pain? Or Deep Strike my Hades Drill and then have my 5 man Flamer squad dismount and open up? I will have to re read this when I get home, I am sorry if I am wrong, I will let you know later tonight (about 5 - 6 hours)

I don't have the BRB on me, but isn't there a rule about models not being able to shoot if their transport went faster than combat speed?  So if a deepstriking transport counts as moving at cruising speed, models that got out of it wouldn't be able to shoot.

Offline faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)

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Re: My Old Lists Got Nerfed and I'm Facing Tau
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2014, 09:23:54 AM »
Pg 78, under the Heading Fire Points will give you the difference between shooting at Combat, Cruising, and Flat out.
So, what your saying is it's not your fault you look stupid by using words you don't get?
Flawless logic.

Offline Galef

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Re: My Old Lists Got Nerfed and I'm Facing Tau
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2014, 12:56:27 PM »

Vehicles that DS count as moving Cruising speed. Units can only disembark if a vehicle move Combat speed.

Double check the DS USR

I just did, and I checked the rule for Drop Pods.  Drop Pods have a rule specifically forcing units to disembark once the pod drops.  This is the ONLY reason that the note on pg. 36 mentions disembarking from Deep Strike.

It is not allowing the disembarkation, but rather a exception to a unit not being able to move after deep strike.

Since transports count as moving at Cruising speed after Deep Strike and units can only disembark after moving Combat Speed, no disembark is allowed after Deep Strike unless SPECIFICALLY noted otherwise (e.g. Drop Pods)
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: My Old Lists Got Nerfed and I'm Facing Tau
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2014, 01:54:14 PM »
Okay, here's the sticky wicket:

The Deep Strike USR implies that units may disembark from deep striking vehicles by laying out the rules for units that do so.
The rules for Transports state that units may only disembark from vehicles moving 6" or less.
The Deep Strike USR states that deep striking vehicles count as having moved at Cruising Speed.

Now, what is interesting is that the transport rules do not specify 'Combat Speed' or 'Cruising Speed'--they just say 6" or less. A deep striking transport is not actually moving any number of inches.

So, on the one hand 'Cruising Speed' is defined as greater than 6", which implies that units can't disembark. However, a deep striking transport has not actually moved any distance, which would seem to imply disembarkation is possible, especially given the rules for it under the Deep Strike USR.

I'm inclined to say that, RAW, Cruising Speed means 6"+ which means no disembarkation barring special vehicles like Drop Pods which override the rule. That seems to be the cleanest interpretation.

Offline Revener

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Re: My Old Lists Got Nerfed and I'm Facing Tau
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2014, 09:12:41 AM »
Then I  have the question: Why would any sane DE player want to disembark and get shot up when its safer inside the raider even if it is made out of paper :)   And since you can only snap shot anyway  why not do it from inside the vehicle.

Drop, snap shot, get shot at, disembark in your turn, charge.

Anyway......

Offline Wyddr

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Re: My Old Lists Got Nerfed and I'm Facing Tau
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2014, 12:15:03 PM »
When you disembark, you aren't taking snap shots anymore.

Offline RapierSix2587

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Re: My Old Lists Got Nerfed and I'm Facing Tau
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2014, 06:19:58 PM »
Guys.. Your bending the rules, it states (I don't have the Rulebook here at work) something about Cruising Speed is moving more then 6" so if Deep Strike says "counts as moving at Cruising Speed, then it's moved more then 6" I mean even fluff wise they just fell from the sky, that's further then 6", plus I tried it with my BA at a game last week at my local GW, and 2 of our main tournament guys said it can't be done, our walking Rulebook said it coundnt, and everyone at our store said that, cause there are so many things that can get OP that way, but yeah, at least in my store/tournament environment and most of Australia (one of our national guys, Jason or something I think) say it's not possible

 


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