News:

Login  |  Register

Author Topic: Stealth Suits - Uses and tactics or not.  (Read 3551 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Halollet

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 387
  • Country: ca
  • My halo grew a mullet...
  • Armies: Grey Knights, Guard, Sisters, Tau, & Tyranids
Stealth Suits - Uses and tactics or not.
« on: July 12, 2013, 08:08:27 AM »
Stealth suits.

I used to love these guys.  They could get close and lay down a lot of fire especially with a small pack of gun drones around them.  But nowadays, even with their free +1 shot, they seem to be over shadowed by everything else.  First off, they're competing for space in an army list against the versatile crisis suit and the badass riptide.  Next, for their points cost, I can get 3 firewarriors which can shot more and farther with only a -1 to their armour save in comparison.  The inability to give them all fusion is a problem too.  With only 2 per unit it pales in comparison to a single crisis suit with TL Fusion/Fusion deep striking in.  Their stealth ability is meh at best since there's no need to fire heavy weapons at them, they're low toughness, MEQ save, and small unit will only last so long a regular infantry fire.

So... what can we do with these guys?  Do we just shelve them until the next codex?

Thoughts?
One sure mark of a fool is to dismiss anything that falls outside of his experience as being impossible.

Offline Wyddr

  • Author Eminence: Hereticus Liber Daemonica | Fio'shas Shi
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4978
  • Country: us
    • My blog about SF/F stuff
  • Armies: Daemons, Imperial Fists, Tau, Ksons, Vostroyans
Re: Stealth Suits - Uses and tactics or not.
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2013, 08:17:38 AM »
I think they are exactly as good as they were before, if not better (supporting fire, easier to get support systems, more shots, etc.). Their only issue is slot competition with Riptides/Crisis Suits. We've been over the comparison between them and firewarriors exhaustively in other threads, but suffice to say that they do things firewarriors can't.

They shouldn't be carrying any fusion blasters at all, really--not their role. The Stealth ability works quite well when they are in cover, when they suddenly gain a TEQ save.

I don't use them primarily because my army theme doesn't fit with them and using more XV8s and Riptides does. If I were to run a stealth-themed or static list, though, they'd probably find a place. They are handy and versatile and the latest book has done nothing to change that. 

Offline Halollet

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 387
  • Country: ca
  • My halo grew a mullet...
  • Armies: Grey Knights, Guard, Sisters, Tau, & Tyranids
Re: Stealth Suits - Uses and tactics or not.
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2013, 10:47:50 AM »
I think they are exactly as good as they were before, if not better (supporting fire, easier to get support systems, more shots, etc.). Their only issue is slot competition with Riptides/Crisis Suits. We've been over the comparison between them and firewarriors exhaustively in other threads, but suffice to say that they do things firewarriors can't.

They shouldn't be carrying any fusion blasters at all, really--not their role. The Stealth ability works quite well when they are in cover, when they suddenly gain a TEQ save.

I don't use them primarily because my army theme doesn't fit with them and using more XV8s and Riptides does. If I were to run a stealth-themed or static list, though, they'd probably find a place. They are handy and versatile and the latest book has done nothing to change that.

And that there is the biggest problem that I see.  What do they bring to the table that's worth not taking another unit of crisis suits/riptide. 

But from what you mention it does seem the best way to use them is to infiltrate them into some cover right in the face of the enemy and get a lot of shots at their front line and then hop away if anything gets close.  I do kinda like it, but again I have to give up something else for that.
One sure mark of a fool is to dismiss anything that falls outside of his experience as being impossible.

Offline Wiggus

  • Happiness is Mandatory
  • Ancient
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2557
  • Country: gb
  • For the greater good!!!!!
Re: Stealth Suits - Uses and tactics or not.
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2013, 02:04:11 PM »
I always run 6 and two fusions with larget locks gives me a reliable shot at dropping a tank a turn with the increased melta range and long as i use a markerlight or two the 16 burst cannon shots is enough to pulverise an infantry unit. As was said you just need to make sure your in cover. I cant seem to get crisis in my list these days between my heavy supports (2 HH and either a skyray of sniper squad) my FA (pathfinders bomber and drones, soon to be fusion pirahnas.) i dont have a great deal of points for elites. I manage to stretch to a riptide and 6 man stealth. i find my crisis just draw lascannon fire which is insta killing them and with only 3 in a unit i can afford that kinda heat hell im not even running a crisis suit commander these days and ive yet to lose with my new Tau.
My name is Steven Wilson
My friends call me Wiggy
My enemies call me Mr Wilson
You may call me Sir!
'Who Dares Wins'
'Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6'
'I love being a writer; I just dont like the paper work'
'Don't make me angry, you wont like it when im angry'

Offline Wyddr

  • Author Eminence: Hereticus Liber Daemonica | Fio'shas Shi
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4978
  • Country: us
    • My blog about SF/F stuff
  • Armies: Daemons, Imperial Fists, Tau, Ksons, Vostroyans
Re: Stealth Suits - Uses and tactics or not.
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2013, 04:59:58 PM »
To compare Stealths with XV8s and Riptides, here's my take:

-Stealths are more casualty-resistant than XV8s. Lascannons or other instakilling weapons, for instance, do a lot of damage to XV8s, but much much
less to stealths. Stealths can afford to lose a guy or two and still work well, whereas losing 2 of a 3-man XV8 team basically cripples them. They fare better against heavy weapons than Riptides, too.

-Stealths put out greater weight of fire than Riptides and make better anti-horde weapons.

-Stealths Infiltrate, which is a massive deployment advantage, even if you just start them in your deployment zone after all. They can outflank (and very reliably, thanks to Acute Senses), which is very useful for an ambush-centric unit like them. Neither the Riptide nor the XV8 can compete with this advantage. If you were to put together an army full of Kroot, Stealths, and a variety of Eldar allies, you could probably rig something up that would deploy *entirely* as infiltrators. Big advantage.

-Stealths are better platforms for certain support systems than either Riptides or XV8s. The Advanced Targeting System, for instance, is very handy on Stealths, as is the overwatch boosting thing (can't remember it's name at the moment). They are often in the position to shoot up objective holders, to displace enemies from objectives, and even to assault weakened squads from objectives. In this role, the ability to pick off squad leaders or special weapons and to present counter assaulters with potent overwatch attacks makes them pretty handy. This is something XV8s and Riptides are rarely in position to do.

I think they definitely have a place. It depends upon overall list composition, for instance. I know that Riptides and Crisis suits are the no-brainers, but I feel a better understanding of what Stealths can do (particularly for static lists) would see them used more often.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 09:45:01 PM by Wyddr, Evil Space Marine »

Offline Wiggus

  • Happiness is Mandatory
  • Ancient
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2557
  • Country: gb
  • For the greater good!!!!!
Re: Stealth Suits - Uses and tactics or not.
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2013, 05:09:24 PM »
Ive just spent the last 6 weeks selling old crisis on ebay i got 6 left and probably sold at least 9 probably got another 3 or 4 to sell. i never see my self using more than 6 now and even then it tends to be in games of 2.5k +
My name is Steven Wilson
My friends call me Wiggy
My enemies call me Mr Wilson
You may call me Sir!
'Who Dares Wins'
'Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6'
'I love being a writer; I just dont like the paper work'
'Don't make me angry, you wont like it when im angry'

Offline Wyddr

  • Author Eminence: Hereticus Liber Daemonica | Fio'shas Shi
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4978
  • Country: us
    • My blog about SF/F stuff
  • Armies: Daemons, Imperial Fists, Tau, Ksons, Vostroyans
Re: Stealth Suits - Uses and tactics or not.
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2013, 09:47:56 PM »
I run 6 crisis + a commander plus a Riptide in a 1750. When I hit lower point levels, though, the Stealths frequently show up. They are good for their points and very versatile, which makes them great buys in low-point games. XV8s and Riptides aren't quite the same bargain--they are usually kitted to one or two things (maybe) and cost about as much as they're worth. They are, of course, very good, but Stealths are more of a bargain option.

Offline ith

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Country: us
  • I <3 40k Online!
Re: Stealth Suits - Uses and tactics or not.
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2013, 04:55:35 PM »
They can outflank (and very reliably, thanks to Acute Senses), which is very useful for an ambush-centric unit like them.

Question, where are they getting Acute Senses from?  I'm not seeing it as part of the unit's special rules nor as part of the suit's abilities.

I pretty much always take a unit of Stealth Suits with only Burst Cannons.  They're pretty survivable when hopping from cover to cover and once they've helped take out my opponent's troops, their mobility helps them start getting rear armor shots.

At the same time, their performance for me has pretty much directly been proportional to the amount of area terrain on the board.  Not really surprising but it's interesting to see how much their effectiveness changes simply because one or two forests were either moved or removed.

Offline Frgsinwntr

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1058
  • Sisters burn
Re: Stealth Suits - Uses and tactics or not.
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2013, 11:52:34 AM »
so... there are few things here I have to say about stealth suits.

First off they are a utility unit.  They are not meant to put out the punishment the other units in the slot put out... they also should be used for a very specific reason.  To help get your outflanking models where you want them.

There is a piece of wargear the stealth suits have in them that other suits don't (stealth field genereators) and their is a piece of wargear they have access to that they have the best way to get it where you want it... the positional relay.

Now crisis teams and riptides can both buy this wargear... but they don't infiltrate.   This means that the stealth suits can infiltrate behind enemy lines, within 6 inches of their board edge and allows you to bring in units from behind them.  In this current edition of the game... bringing on 20-60 kroot from behind is HUGE.  You're opponent who wants to close on you has to deal with the kroot (or the stealth suits on turn 1), meaning they have to turn away from the rest of your force. 

The stealth suit with their stealth field generator will be very tough to dislodge since they will have a 2+ coversave if you put them in area terrain making this small 95 point unit a must target first turn... PLUS... you only need to be within 6 inches of the back edge... meaning your stealth suits make your opponent spread out instead of being concentrated...

You could do the same thing with crisis suits... but... you have to start on your board max distance out, move 6, run, then hope for a big jet pack assault phase move... meaning you wasted a turn of shooting... or the kroot won't make it on AND its a bigger investment.  this will only really work well on vangaurd deployment and not at all on hammer and anvil or dawn of warm. 

You could do the same thing with a riptide... but... you have to start on the board, NOVA charge for the 4d6inch assault move, and RUN in the shooting phase (unless this is done during vanguard in which case you can still shoot and most likely make it).  This will only not work on hammer and anvil.

But the stealth suits will work on EVERY deployment type.  After they do their job and get the kroot where you want them THEN they go about shooting things up.

Your opponent brought all mech you say?  In this edition?  Well... I guess the time has come to keep them in YOUR deployment zone, and then use their positional relay to control which side of the board they outflank from (if you want)

So yea... in short if you want to run stealth suits, there are a few lists you can Build to specifically allow them to do cool things as a utility unit.

If you want them to be a damage unit... don't look here...  they can't outperform the crisis suits, firewarrior teams, riptides, or even kroot on a point for point basis... what they do allow you more than these other units however is to have board control. 

A list I would possibly try this out with at 1850 (assuming NOVA as the standard points tourny)
HQ   Commander with, CnC node, drone controller, vectored retros, multispectrum, neuroweb (goes with crisis marker/drone markers)
HQ   Commander with puretide, iridium armor, two missile pod (goes with Broad sides)
HQ   Bodyguard, 2 crisis, 2 missilepods each, target locks, 4 marker drones
Elite   1 riptide with Early warning/Ion/SMS
Elite   1 riptide with Early warning/Ion/SMS
Elite   3 stealth suits, positional relay
Troops   6 firewarriors in a devil fish with smart missiles
Troops   20 kroot
Troops   20 kroot
Troops   20 kroot
Heavy   3 broadsides with high yeild missile pods and SMS, all 3 with target locks, 6 missile drones
Heavy   Skyray with SMS and BSF

The firewarriors in devil fish stay in your deployment, the fish is there to make them last longer, and give cover to crisis team turn 1
« Last Edit: July 14, 2013, 12:37:00 PM by Frgsinwntr »
Chain swords are awesome.  The only way would be cooler is if they had tits and were on fire.

Offline Halollet

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 387
  • Country: ca
  • My halo grew a mullet...
  • Armies: Grey Knights, Guard, Sisters, Tau, & Tyranids
Re: Stealth Suits - Uses and tactics or not.
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2013, 02:04:23 PM »
*snip*

Ahhh... You know I completely forgot about that piece of equipment.  I really like that tactic!  Lots o' fun!

However I wouldn't just do kroot.  I would take units of 15 kroot + 2 krootox, and pathfinders with Rail Rifles.

I'll have to contemplate the possibilities of this.  Thanks!
One sure mark of a fool is to dismiss anything that falls outside of his experience as being impossible.

Offline Frgsinwntr

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1058
  • Sisters burn
Re: Stealth Suits - Uses and tactics or not.
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2013, 12:23:38 PM »
*snip*

Ahhh... You know I completely forgot about that piece of equipment.  I really like that tactic!  Lots o' fun!

However I wouldn't just do kroot.  I would take units of 15 kroot + 2 krootox, and pathfinders with Rail Rifles.

I'll have to contemplate the possibilities of this.  Thanks!

the krootoxs are a good addition since they have str 7 vs rear armor and are rapid fire... but they make the unit a bigger point sink.  The rail rifles wouldn't be as good as the ion rifles... the ion can shoot and move with out snap fire. 
Chain swords are awesome.  The only way would be cooler is if they had tits and were on fire.

Offline Wyddr

  • Author Eminence: Hereticus Liber Daemonica | Fio'shas Shi
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4978
  • Country: us
    • My blog about SF/F stuff
  • Armies: Daemons, Imperial Fists, Tau, Ksons, Vostroyans
Re: Stealth Suits - Uses and tactics or not.
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2013, 01:04:41 PM »
They can outflank (and very reliably, thanks to Acute Senses), which is very useful for an ambush-centric unit like them.

Question, where are they getting Acute Senses from?  I'm not seeing it as part of the unit's special rules nor as part of the suit's abilities.

Whoops! I was thinking the last edition of Stealth Suits--apologies. Got my editions mixed up for a second.

Offline ArchonRoc

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 79
  • Fear the Shadows, Despise the Night
Re: Stealth Suits - Uses and tactics or not.
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2013, 11:23:50 PM »
Again, a little late to the party, but don't forget about the homing beacons. That what I use the stealth suits for. Between a few of those, recon-fish, or ethereals, let's me DS several crisis squads without worry of scattering almost anywhere I need them to be.

Plus the 2+ cover they get for popping behind a friendly squad, and the supporting fire they can offer, they have some uses.

--Roc

Offline Sayt

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1338
  • Country: 00
  • The Devil you think you know.
Re: Stealth Suits - Uses and tactics or not.
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2013, 06:44:31 PM »
*snip*

Ahhh... You know I completely forgot about that piece of equipment.  I really like that tactic!  Lots o' fun!

However I wouldn't just do kroot.  I would take units of 15 kroot + 2 krootox, and pathfinders with Rail Rifles.

I'll have to contemplate the possibilities of this.  Thanks!

the krootoxs are a good addition since they have str 7 vs rear armor and are rapid fire... but they make the unit a bigger point sink.  The rail rifles wouldn't be as good as the ion rifles... the ion can shoot and move with out snap fire.

I don't have my codex on me right now, but I'm 98% sure that Railrifles changed from heavy to rapid fire between editions, so the difference between them is, I think, down to the local meta.  If you see a lot of Orks, Nids and Guard, I'd probably go Ion Rifles for the Overcharge mode/high strength and good enough AP.  If you mostly see MEQ, I'd go with the Rails.

As for Stealth suits, I'm pondering a utility unit of six, a 'Vre in the back with Positional Relay and Homing beacon, 2 with Fusions and Target lock, and the rest with bursts and Counterfires.  The plan is to hidh behind enemy lines, and guide in deep striking Crisis teams and a Firewarrior fish with Darkstrider in for the ride.  It's an expensive unit, to be sure, and I'm not sure if it's worth it yet, but I think it has potential to make a significant difference.

Offline Wyddr

  • Author Eminence: Hereticus Liber Daemonica | Fio'shas Shi
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4978
  • Country: us
    • My blog about SF/F stuff
  • Armies: Daemons, Imperial Fists, Tau, Ksons, Vostroyans
Re: Stealth Suits - Uses and tactics or not.
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2013, 09:07:42 PM »
You could drop the fusions, the target locks, and the counterfires in that unit and still have a pretty effective unit that does the job you need. It's really tempting to waste points on toys with the Tau, but they don't usually need half the stuff people give them. The Stealth's jump packs are often sufficient to avoid assault, and a unit that wants to stick by a board edge to use its Positional Relay isn't the best thing to go hunting tanks, anyway. Besides, Stealths are good at getting side/rear armor shots, anyway, which is often enough to cripple or kill a lot of different tanks.

 


Powered by EzPortal