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Offline nevaenuffbass

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Guardians vs Dire avengers: discussion
« on: June 22, 2013, 12:44:22 AM »
There is some conversation around regarding which is the superior troop choice: Guardians or dire avengers. I thought I'd oylines the pros / cons of each to trigger a discussion.
Some avid mathhammerers may want to chime in - undoubtedly they'll conclude that guardians are better value, as they get the same number of shots, at the same BS and S for less. But I don't think it is at all that simple.

Reasons for taking guardians
- Cheaper per model
- Can take a weapon platform, meaning the unit becomes more versatile - able to target vehicles etc
- Can take a warlock
Good combo - 20 guardians, 2 weapon platforms, warlock with conceal, aegis defence line, quadgun, farseer support if required. This combo still unlocks a wave serpent, even if they can't start in it. From the start of your turn one, they could have a 2+ cover save most of the time (warlock has to cast conceal, re-rollable should you get fortune). Their weapon platform / quadgun means that they'll probably be impacting the game with 12 reliable mid-strength shots each turn. This combo costs 355 points (not including farseer) though.
Bear in mind that this combo is particularly vulnerable to anything that ignores cover - my blood angels drop pod army would love to drop some flamer templates on it quick-smart and heldrakes will probably be able to cover a chunk of them with it's torrent. Also, there is no way to improve the only decent probability of conceal going off.

Problems with guardians
Short range. This is mitigated to some extent by battle focus. But only some extent. Also, if you are jumping out of a serpent, arguably it is less relevant.
No save against boltguns and most small arms within the game.
Not as cheap as is commonly believed. The points/model goes up when you include the weapon platform

My impression: Guardians probably get the most improved status in the new dex (or second best after jetbikes). But most improved should not be confused with best.

Dire Avengers
Reasons for:
1. longer range weapons. In my experience thus far, the range is the biggest reason for taking avengers. Most, if not all of their shooting happens further away than a Guardian can shoot, and with battlefocus, I find that these guys synergise well with jbikes / serpents, - they are able to keep up generally.
2. better armour save. It's not MEQ standard, although can be if you include exarch. While it doesn't make these guys tough, it means that unless you are taking fire from high strenght or specialised weapons, at least you are getting an armour save.
3. better Ld. By one point. Not a biggie.
4. Exarch. Well I don't actually advocate taking an exarch, but i suppose the shimmershield could be helpful. If you happen to be taking a named combat character, there are worse buddies for him than the avengers with exarch to draw the challenge, but there are better places as well (scorpions)
5. Cheapest way to unlock a serpent (if you take 5)

Reasons against
1. More costly than guardians (marginally, 1 pt per model, assuming 10 taken and a weapon platform)
2. Benefits mean nothing if they never jump out of a serpent
3. Limited to anti-infantry role.

In my experience, avengers remain the best unit for firing a bladestorm on an enemy. They can do it from further than guardians, and occupy less space than jetbikes, so can normally get more shots on target. Off topic, but their ability to unlock and embark a wave serpent is something jbikes can't do (relevant in context of heldrakes).

Summary: I think that avengers are a better choice than guardians in most situations. Guardians provide an expensive way to have some anti-vehicle and can get an impressive cover save when combined well. I think there are cheaper and better ways to get B Lances, scatter lasers and shuriken cannons into an army. My experience is that the extra range is important given our vulnerability to assault and the limits on vehicle movement when you disembark.

I look forward to reading your thoughts

In the interests of avoiding copyright problems, I've dummied out the stats. --Koval
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 01:08:30 AM by Autarch Koval'andril »

Offline Partninja

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Re: Guardians vs Dire avengers: discussion
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2013, 01:42:58 AM »
There is no best. It will depend on your list and what role they will fill.

Guardian defenders are still very much a back line unit for me. Take two squads minimum and keep them in my DZ on objective(s). Supporting with a longer range gun, usually a lance now, to help with AT. When an enemy gets close enough, 20 shurican catapults with new bladestorm and a more accurate guardian is something to worry about. Larger squads of 20 with two HWs lead by an Avatar can be used more aggressively.

Dire Avengers are more of a mid-field or front line unit. With the combination of their longer range and battle focus they can keep shooting, and stay out of close combats. The better armor save will help them stick around. If they do manage to get stuck in CC, counter charge and again better armor save helps a lot.

Really, you shouldn't only take one or the other. Unless sticking to a strict theme you should really use both. Even in an Ulthwe army you can field a unit of Avengers, and a Biel-Tan army can still use a guardian squad or two.

Offline The Mattler

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Re: Guardians vs Dire avengers: discussion
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2013, 02:12:13 AM »
I don't want to just copy/paste a huge post here, so I recommend reading Reply #39 in this thread: The problem of Dire Avengers Pay special attention to the Damage Over Time section.  Replies #42, #47, and #54 flesh out the core ideas I put forth in Reply #39, as well as address some criticisms.  If I had to summarize the difference between Guardian Defenders and Dire Avengers, it would be this excerpt from Reply #39, and the math to back up these claims is in that post as well.
Quote
4) Compared to Dire Avengers, Guardian Defenders are a poor choice in terms of damage over time due to their lower armour and shorter weapon range.  If you advance with them, they are inferior at trading fire, and if you hold them back to camp objectives, they aren't applying enough of their firepower to the battle to justify their cost.  Besides, Dire Avengers can easily Run for late-game objectives without sacrificing firepower; they only need to reach them by Turn 5.

Good combo - 20 guardians, 2 weapon platforms, warlock with conceal, aegis defence line, quadgun, farseer support if required.
If that sort of firepower is what you're looking for, why not use 10 Dire Avengers + 10 Warp Spiders for 320pts?  The Wave Serpent is still a possibility, and can actually load the Troops into it, but you miss out on the Quad Gun.  Fortunately, the Quad Gun is easily handed off to a unit of Dark Reapers, who don't mind spending plenty of time in the backfield.  Short range weapons should be used aggressively, so it would be a shame to tie up 20 Shuriken Catapults behind an Aegis Defense Line.

My impression: Guardians probably get the most improved status in the new dex (or second best after jetbikes). But most improved should not be confused with best.
This is off topic, but I think Swooping Hawks probably have the largest relative buff from one Codex to the next: 23.8% reduction in cost combined with a 50% increase in firepower (more if you include the improvements to their grenades packs, Herald of Victory, and the Sunrifle giving them one of the few usable Exarchs).  Back on topic, Guardians tend to look amazing in a vacuum, even in the last Codex, but once you take a full account of their terrible range and armour, plus expected movement over several turns, they're actually awful. *plugs Reply #39 again* ;)
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Guardians vs Dire avengers: discussion
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2013, 06:32:47 AM »
For ease of reference this is a direct link to reply number 39 which the Mattler cites above.

I'm still not convinced that Dire Avengers are superior enough to Guardians in terms of pure fire power (they are a better all rounder unit) to warrant taking them.  Yes, I've read all the maths, and seen those arguments, but I prefer qualitative (i.e. actual gaming experience) comparison in situations like this.  I haven't had an opportunity to test Guardians and Dire Avengers in a comparable role yet, but the only way I can see Dire Avengers holding the advantage is to ensure that they use their additional range to keep them out of trouble, which should give them a slight edge over the Guardians.
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Offline Halfpast_Yellow

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Re: Guardians vs Dire avengers: discussion
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2013, 10:34:20 AM »
Played both units in every game so far.

Kiting with Avengers is easy. Kiting with Guardians is not.


Offline Irisado

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Re: Guardians vs Dire avengers: discussion
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2013, 11:58:39 AM »
Kiting with Avengers is easy. Kiting with Guardians is not.

Could you explain what you mean by this?

I can only assume that you mean some kind of mechanised hit and run style shooting tactic using Wave Serpents as the mode of delivery, but beyond that I've no clue what the term means.
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Offline Koval, Master Verispex

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Re: Guardians vs Dire avengers: discussion
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2013, 12:35:11 PM »
Having come across kiting in MMO games, I gather that it's a tactic where you lead an enemy on a merry dance so that you can bring your full strength to bear, but they can't because they've got to chase after you. The longer your reach and the greater your manoeuverability, the easier it is.

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Re: Guardians vs Dire avengers: discussion
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2013, 01:01:06 PM »
In other words, it's what I would call hit and run attacks.  That makes more sense to me, thanks for the explanation.

That being the case, it is easier to use Dire Avengers in that role, owing to the range, but Guardians would still make a decent cut price option for players how can employ the tactic successfully with a far narrower margin for error.
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Offline MRC

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Re: Guardians vs Dire avengers: discussion
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2013, 02:14:43 PM »
I think you might also need to consider the HQ your army is taking:

Avatar - Strong CC threat and fearless bubble, great for footdar list that like to move. Based on that, I would give Dire Avengers the edge, since they are better in a foot-slogging role, with their enhanced range, better armor, and access to a potential Invul Save

Farseer - Great force multiplier HQ, especially with Divination, as he can add to the unit durability and firepower. Given that the buffs are the same no matter the unit size, I would give Guardians the edge with a Farseer, since they can potentially benefit a squad double the size of a max DA unit with all of the Farseer buffs.

Spiritseer - Again, another force-multiplier unit, albeit similar to the Warlock that Guardians can take naturally. That said, he has higher leadership and access to more than one power, so much more reliable in casting and also in getting useful psychic abilities. Given that many of the powers from Runes of Battle either buff friendly CC or debuff enemy CC, Avengers can take advantage of this more since they are naturally better at CC than guardians (leadership, armor, counterattack, Exarch, etc.), though still not a good dedicated melee unit. As for the other Runes of Battle powers, I would argue that they provide greater advantage to Dire Avengers (i.e. turning DA armor into MEQs is better than turning Guardian armor into Storm Trooper, running further is even better for the DAs since they can either shoot and hide better or run and then shoot at even longer range, etc.). Overall, while really designed to support melee troops and/or Wraith units, I think a Spiritseer HQ lends itself to taking DA over Guardians.

Autarch - More of a support character, either in melee (i.e. bike, Mantle, special CC weapons) or on the backline (man the Icarus with high BS while modifying resrves beg=hind a fortification). In this sense, I think the advantage leans towards Guardians, who are often either camping on a backfield objective with Heavy Weapons and a ADL or are meching forward in a Wave Serpent and need some melee counter-attack/distraction support when they jump out at Rapid Fire range to shoot their catapults.

Not going into Special Characters, but obviously they can greatly impact the choice of DAs vs Guardians as primary Troops when taking into account the abilities/rules they grant to their squad, the WL traits they bring, and the impact on maneuver/shooting/combat they can have (i.e. imagine Karandras jumping out of a WS with a squad of Guardians and a Warlock.... potential strong cover save in the open due to Stealth/Shrouded (and brutal one in actual cover), great at taking down monsters, unshakeable morale, ability to tank enemy shooting with Karandras, and a scary good melee capability (something you don't normally associate with Guardians) due to big Scorpion Himself... he can basically ace an entire MEQ or TEQ squad single-handedly, especially if they were soften up by Bladestormin' Shurikan catapults beforehand.

Offline The Mattler

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Re: Guardians vs Dire avengers: discussion
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2013, 08:00:14 PM »
That being the case, it is easier to use Dire Avengers in that role, owing to the range, but Guardians would still make a decent cut price option for players how can employ the tactic successfully with a far narrower margin for error.
My objection to using the Guardians in that manner is that there isn't a margin of error as such; the Guardians just get exposed to too much firepower.  The range of the DAs allows them to move up, kill a few models, and be guaranteed to be over 18" away using their Run move (97.22-100% success rate), meaning that they'll be out of reach of opposing Rapid Fire retaliation.  The DAs could choose to Run before or after firing and still be relatively safe from the unit they just shot; they could even Run only 3" and escape Pulse Rifle Rapid Fire (88.89% success rate).  For Guardians to pull off the same trick, they have to kill everything within their (shorter) weapon range, then Run 6" to escape the reach of Rapid Fire (30.56% success rate), and they can't escape the aforementioned Pulse Rifles unless the whole unit manages to hide from LOS.

Quote
Farseer - Great force multiplier HQ, especially with Divination, as he can add to the unit durability and firepower. Given that the buffs are the same no matter the unit size, I would give Guardians the edge with a Farseer, since they can potentially benefit a squad double the size of a max DA unit with all of the Farseer buffs.
While I agree with the principle that the Farseer's re-rolls should be used in such a way that they benefit the most models possible, on the tabletop it would be difficult to get 20 Guardians into weapon range compared to 10 Dire Avengers, and the resulting clumped formation would be very vulnerable to blast and template weapons.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 08:11:22 PM by The Mattler »
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Guardians vs Dire avengers: discussion
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2013, 07:00:36 AM »
Mounted:
As noted Guardians are more fragile than avengers, especially against bolters and other standard troop weapons, hence they need the protection of a serpent more than the avengers, while avengers can reach further with their weapons than the Guardians even when mounted it's not such a big issue, since if you can't reach them by 1 turn maneuvering, those extra inches from their gun does not do much, it's 24+D6 vs 18+D6 for one turn and for two turns it's 54+D6 vs 48+D6 which is almost a negligible difference in my book.

What made avengers good when mounted last codex was their increased rate of fire each second turn which worked well with jumping in and out of transport, that is no more. Sure you can use them like that now, but there is no synergy in it any more.

On foot:
Avengers range matters a lot here, and allows them to kite outside of rapid fire, pistol and charge range, and do not have to rely on cover and/or a flimsy warlock. Sure the Guardians can be taken in larger units but the benefits are almost eaten up by the clumsiness of such a large unit on the table, and they are even more fragile and hence should not be used as cannon fodder, not even in cover.

Conclusion:
Avengers are best on foot and Guardians are best mounted, Except for possibly the DAVU.
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Offline Halfpast_Yellow

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Re: Guardians vs Dire avengers: discussion
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2013, 08:12:30 AM »
Ugh, I haven't played an MMO in a long time, didn't realise I was slipping into MMO terms :/

To be fair to Guardian Defenders in the range debate, when we're talking inches, they do have one small advantage - the platform easily extends their kill range to the rear models of an enemy unit, meaning the rest of the catapult's only have to reach the closest model, position accordingly. Dire Avengers as a contrast, must extend a model to within 18" of the rearmost model, which can drag them closer. This is if you have designs on killing everything with that round of fire of course and not just giving a unit a haircut.

I'm a bit eh over mounted Guardian Defenders. Sure a serpent can deliver them, then they die. Without a reliable Destructor, I'm not sure what the point is?

I will still take 8 mounted Dire Avengers over 12 Guardian Defenders (equivalent points, nothing wrong with 9 or 10) if I'm trying to take shuriken fire to an opponent's deployment zone, because Avengers can deliver that on turn one or two, and require attention to shift from there. Even with their improved abilities Guardian Defenders aren't dangerous enough to be used as a suicide squad.

What I have found Guardian Defenders (it's in the name!) good for is having a single larger unit overwatch a spot the enemy wants to go, whether it be objective or chokepoint or both. A couple of missile Launchers or Brightlances keeps them in the game, and they cover a lot of the Heavy Support choices nicely under their umbrella.

« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 08:13:48 AM by Halfpast_Yellow »

Offline nevaenuffbass

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Re: Guardians vs Dire avengers: discussion
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2013, 08:52:48 AM »
I suppose another key difference is that guardians can be taken in squad sizes up to 20, making them harder to shift, and less likely to need a morale test. They are a great bunker for a farseer.

Offline Irisado

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Re: Guardians vs Dire avengers: discussion
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2013, 09:55:01 AM »
Large squads of Guardians can take a bit of punishment before taking a morale test, but they are very vulnerable to blasts, and templates, and rather unwieldy to move.  They don't work for me, but if you've got a massive amount of 4+ cover to make use of, then they can be quite hard to shift if you can keep template weapons at arm's length.
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Re: Guardians vs Dire avengers: discussion
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2013, 10:45:20 AM »
meh, why would you mount guardian defenders? the whole point of defenders is that they sit back in cover with a warlock and fire the heavy weapon platforms.
if i'm mounting up guardians, it means i'm not using the heavy weapons platforms for at least 1 turn, if not more. If i want to use a squad in a transport to fire shuriken weaponry, i'd rather have the armour save and increased range. those boys are going in hot and will be going to score objectives so need to be able to dish punishment and take some in return. the shimmershield is great for this, no matter how bad the punishment gets, you're still getting a save.

for guardians, i might as well skip the platform if mounted and give them 2 melta guns, as these are significantly more effective than 1 weapons platform.
The 10 storm guardians still die just as quickly to basic weaponry as the defenders, but can now reliably take out tanks. To be fair, if you must, you can still give them a conceal-lock. he can cast on the unit before they disembark so they still get a 5+ cover save in the open and are much more capable at AT work than the same size squad of defenders.
they perform a totally different role to avengers and i've been running 10 stormies alongside my avengers successfully

Offline Irisado

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Re: Guardians vs Dire avengers: discussion
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2013, 11:31:47 AM »
meh, why would you mount guardian defenders? the whole point of defenders is that they sit back in cover with a warlock and fire the heavy weapon platforms.

Guardians are not meant just to hold back.  The idea is that, when used on foot, they provide mobile fire support.  You hold them back initially, and then advance them as the game progresses.  They're not ideally suited to holding objectives in your deployment zone, because they can't respond to long range fire being directed their way in this situation.  Yes, you can have other units, such as Dire Avengers, in a more aggressive role, but I still find that I get more from Defender Guardians when I don't just use them as deployment objective holders.

For me, Dire Avengers, and Guardians, are both midfield fire support units, and this is why I think that they are directly comparable in so many ways.  Dire Avengers are more of a hit and run style infantry unit, thanks to their superior range, but with battle focus, both can be used in a pretty similar way as the game progresses.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 11:43:21 AM by Irisado »
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Offline Halfpast_Yellow

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Re: Guardians vs Dire avengers: discussion
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2013, 12:31:00 PM »
Dire Avengers are kings of the midfield compared to Guardians, I just don't see it.

Unless you have perfectly spaced cover types to hop between, an alive warlock successfully casting conceal, cover saves are allowed, and your opponent is happy to play your game, they just can't effectively trade blows with their shuriken catapults without being shot up or assaulted, when you're fighting on no man's land or enemy turf.

The many catapults really great to have hanging around when a Trygon pops up, or Mephiston falls out of a Stormraven, but if you're looking to utilise shuriken on both attack and defense, the true discussion is Dire Avengers vs Windrider Jetbikes.

Compare 6 Bikes with two cannons to 10 Avengers. That's a hard one to pick.

Offline Irisado

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Re: Guardians vs Dire avengers: discussion
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2013, 01:19:01 PM »
Unless you have perfectly spaced cover types to hop between, an alive warlock successfully casting conceal, cover saves are allowed, and your opponent is happy to play your game, they just can't effectively trade blows with their shuriken catapults without being shot up or assaulted, when you're fighting on no man's land or enemy turf.

They can if the board you're playing on has quite a bit cover, particularly with help from battle focus.  Much depends on the units you pair them with too, but that's beyond the scope of this thread, so I'm not going to discuss that.

I agree, however, that Dire Avengers are much easier to use in this role though, and are likely to be preferred by the majority of players.
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Offline Spirit of Kurnous

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Re: Guardians vs Dire avengers: discussion
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2013, 01:33:49 PM »
much prefer my avengers, main thing been said is that avengers get a save against bolters.

also avengers can soot the marines straight after being shot themselves, sometimes before. guardians usually have to take 3 bolter shots per marine (unless you roll a 6 for run) before they even get to fire back.

also always take the exarch with disarm, awesome for holding up units, characters etc as I have found so far.
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Re: Guardians vs Dire avengers: discussion
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2013, 09:13:20 AM »
the true discussion is Dire Avengers vs Windrider Jetbikes.

Compare 6 Bikes with two cannons to 10 Avengers. That's a hard one to pick.

Hmmm. I take both. I find they work well together. Between battle focus and the assault move (usually backwards) they keep up with each other. I really enjoy the way they work together. If the current codex had been released when I modelled and painted my jbikes, I'd ahve given them avanger bodies and heads. Mounted aspect warriors. Sorry, i digress.

If I had to choose to take all of one and not the other, I'd probably go the avengers, but that is because 1. I like aspect warriors and 2. they unlock wave serpents. But I'd miss the turn 5/6 objective / linebreaker snatching.

 


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