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Author Topic: The Mattler's Mathhammer: Eldar Anti-Air  (Read 1479 times)

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Offline The Mattler

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The Mattler's Mathhammer: Eldar Anti-Air
« on: June 13, 2013, 11:51:13 PM »
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  • Similar to my post on War Walker configurations, I thought I'd write up a summary of the more obvious AA options in the new Eldar Codex.  If you do these calculations on your own, and believe that you've found errors in my work, please let me know so that 1) I can correct the number in this post, 2) I can improve my methods, and 3) I can share more accurate and useful unit evaluation tools with you in the future.  In particular, if you have a proposal for another Eldar unit with decent AA, I'll add it to this post as an edit.

    I've listed each unit with its points spent per hull point removed, as well as the points spent per Explodes! result, against AV10, AV11, and AV12.  The first thing you should notice is the average number of points to cause an explosion is so high that each unit is has almost certainly destroyed the vehicle by stripping hull points before an explosion can occur.  That is not to say that vehicles don't explode, but it is rare enough that it isn't worth claiming that weapon AP is a significant factor against vehicles when you are choosing units for a list.  The second point of interest is that, unlike the War Walker post, I have not provided the actual numbers for these units attacking other targets; it is sufficient to say that the War Walker configurations are inferior to Scatterlaser + Starcannon build, the Dark Reapers can kill most infantry and MCs efficiently, the Warp Spiders can shred almost anything, Wave Serpents are deadlier than Fire Prisms to almost all targets (I'm not kidding), and Crimson Hunters are best used against your opponent's toughest units.  Finally, the AA calculations contain no saves of any kind from the Flyers; if you want to transform the numbers for a 5+ save, multiply the values I've given by 1.5 (because the number of glancing/penetrating hits is multiplied by 2/3).  Just don't do it for the Reapers unless you're shooting a Heldrake, Nightwing Interceptor, Phoenix Bomber, anything cloaked by a Ravenwing Darkshroud (etc.).

    Note: due to the large numbers of platforms that can sport multiple S6 weapons with different APs, ranges, and rates of fire, I will not add any to the list beyond the War Walkers with 2 Scatterlasers; that means no Vyper, Hornet, or other War Walker shenanigans.   The transformations are really easy to do, so work them out yourself.  For example, to figure it out the numbers for a Hornet with 2 Scatterlasers, divide the points cost of said Hornet by the cost the War Walker with 2 Scatterlasers, then multiply the result by the pts/HP removed from each target by the War Walker.  Don't bother with the pts/Explodes! number, since it's not worth planning around.  Due to weapon pricing, all other matched pairs of S6 weapons on a War Walker will be less efficient at killing Flyers than the 2 Scatterlasers in both the regular and re-rolled circumstances.  Mixed S6 weapons that include a Scatterlaser will be more efficient than 2 Scatterlasers without a re-roll, but less efficient than 2 Scatterlasers with a re-roll.

    War Walkers w/2 Eldar Missile Launchers, Flakk Missiles (x2)
    AV10 123.75/HP; 990.00/EX
    AV11 165.00/HP; 1485.00/EX
    AV12 247.50/HP; 2970.00/EX
    It turns out that the only War Walker configuration Phil Kelly built from the ground up to kill Flyers is also the worst tool for the job.  Not only is this unit an embarrassing testament to Mr. Kelly's inability to handle simple fractions, it's extortionate cost also makes it a poor choice against all other targets.  Pinning does not redeem the Eldar Missile Launcher's almost insulting expense.

    War Walkers w/2 Scatterlasers
    AV10 105.00/HP; 918.75/EX
    AV11 157.50/HP; 1837.50/EX
    AV12 472.50/HP; Glance Only/EX
    With the exception of shooting AV12, these War Walkers are actually better than those with 2 Eldar Missile Launchers, especially considering how much better they fare against other targets.  If you have a Farseer to give these War Walkers a re-roll, they become a good anti-air option (see the other entry farther down this list), but otherwise I'd recommend sticking with a Scatterlaser + Starcannon for other targets, and taking more dedicated anti-air.

    War Walkers w/Scatterlaser, Eldar Missile Launcher (x1)
    AV10 105.33/HP; 880.80/EX
    AV11 146.80/HP; 1452.82/EX
    AV12 242.14/HP; 4144.60/EX
    The Scatterlaser's high rate of fire and Laser Lock makes this option a little more practical against Flyers, as well as other targets.  If you insist on taking Eldar Missile Launchers in your army, this is the least crazy way to do it, but that doesn't make it good.

    3 Dark Reapers w/Exarch, Fast Shot, Night Vision, Aegis Defense Line, Icarus Lascannon
    AV10 105.88/HP; 415.38/EX
    AV11 133.33/HP; 540.00/EX
    AV12 180.00/HP; 720.00/EX
    These numbers are worse than they appear because if you bother to field this terrible AA squad, you'll probably bulk it up to have at least 5 Dark Reapers, which lowers its AA efficiency; frankly this squad is just anti-infantry with token AA thrown in.  The Icarus Lascannon is a pathetic shadow of the Quad Gun, so add one to a unit of Dark Reapers only if your Quad Gun model got crushed underfoot or took a particularly disastrous tumble from tabletop to floor.

    Warp Spiders
    AV10 85.50/HP; 684.00/EX
    AV11 114.00/HP; 1026.00/EX
    AV12 171.00/HP; 2052.00/EX
    It turns out that, aside from AV14, there's nothing a Warp Spider can't kill.  Although you won't be taking Warp Spiders as dedicated AA, they can make Flyer pay for showing up in their weapon range.  Speaking of which, since Flyers tend to advance at least 18" onto the board, the Warp Spiders have a good chance to respond on the turn immediately following the Flyer's arrival.

    3 Dark Reapers w/Exarch, Fast Shot, Night Vision, Eldar Missile Launcher, Flakk Missiles, Aegis Defense Line, Quad Gun
    AV10 63.45/HP; 517.96/EX
    AV11 86.33/HP; 810.00/EX
    AV12 135.00/HP; 1620.00/EX
    Like the Dark Reapers with the Icarus Lascannon above, the numbers for this squad are deceptive; this configuration is the minimum to get good AA in a Dark Reaper squad, but I don't expect to field it this small.  I'd recommend adding at least 2 more Dark Reapers, which will boost the squad's firepower against non-vehicles and provide ablative wounds to protect the Exarch and Quad Gun operator.  Adding those Reapers does dilute the AA efficiency, though, making this squad less effective against Flyers per point than the next entry... 

    Wave Serpent w/Twin-linked Scatterlasers, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-field
    AV10 78.77/HP; 671.58/EX
    AV11 111.93/HP; 1159.72/EX
    AV12 193.28/HP; 4245.23/EX
    Who would have guessed that, barring re-rolls bestowed by a Farseer, the most efficient non-Flyer AA in the Eldar Codex would be its dedicated transport?  These numbers assume that the Wave Serpent is firing its energy shield, but that's not much of a drawback considering that the transport will be attacking Flyers on the second or third turn.  That means that the Wave Serpent would have already dropped off its passengers, and so no longer needs its shield to prevent Shaken and Stunned results that might ruin your disembarked unit's shooting.  The fact that the shield's firing mode ignores cover is the icing on the cake when it comes to shooting down Flyers, and it is more efficient at killing infantry and light vehicles than the Fire Prism (and I had such high hopes for the Fire Prism...).

    3 War Walkers w/2 Scatterlasers + Guide/Prescience
    AV10 68.18/HP; 613.64/EX
    AV11 102.27/HP; 1227.27/EX
    AV12 204.55/HP; Glance Only/EX
    These numbers assume a full squad of 10 Warp Spiders, plus 1/3 of a Farseer w/Eldar Jetbike and Singing Spear because I assume that the Farseer is using the other two powers elsewhere.  It's not surprising that units with low BS, or are forced to fire Snap Shots, benefit the most from re-rolls. 

    Firestorm w/Shuriken Cannon
    AV10 65.14/HP; 586.29/EX
    AV11 97.71/HP; 1052.31/EX
    AV12 195.43/HP; Glance Only/EX
    Since the Firestorm is designed from the ground up to shoot down Flyers, it's no surprise that it makes such a strong showing.  Unfortunately, shooting Flyers is the only thing it can do better than most units.  War Walkers, Vypers, and especially Hornets produce far more mobile firepower against ground targets, a Wave Serpent is a much better transport, and it brings plenty of supplemental anti-air firepower to the table alongside the Crimson Hunter, the most efficient anti-air option in the Codex.  Competition for Heavy Support slots also marginalizes the Firestorm.

    10 Warp Spiders + Guide/Prescience
    AV10 56.45/HP; 451.64/EX
    AV11 75.27/HP; 677.45/EX
    AV12 112.91/HP; 1354.91/EX
    Similar to the War Walker example above, the numbers here are based on the 10-man squad with some of a Farseer's attention.  The difference is that Warp Spiders are great on their own, whereas the War Walkers with 2 Scatterlasers are generally inferior to War Walkers with Scatterlaser + Starcannon.

    Crimson Hunter
    AV10 61.71/HP; 231.43/EX
    AV11 67.50/HP; 270.00/EX
    AV12 80.00/HP; 360.00/EX
    You knew this one was coming.  The Crimson Hunter is by far the most efficient tool the Eldar have to destroy AV12 Flyers.  It's strengths and weaknesses are obvious, so I won't go into them in detail, but if you're in the habit of using them, an Autarch will go a long way to ensure that they get to apply their firepower where they need it, as well as survive long enough to do so.

    Crimson Hunter Exarch w/2 Brightlances
    AV10 54.00/HP; 208.29/EX
    AV11 60.75/HP; 243.00/EX
    AV12 72.00/HP; 324.00/EX
    There's not much to add here; it's just a more efficient version of the Crimson Hunter.

    Crimson Hunter Exarch w/2 Starcannons
    AV10 41.99/HP; 171.53/EX
    AV11 54.00/HP; 253.57/EX
    AV12 79.35/HP; 648.00/EX
    The Starcannon variant gets a 28.60% boost against AV10 and a 12.50% boost against AV11 while giving up 9.26% of its firepower against AV12; it also loses 60% of it's firepower against AV13 and 75% of its firepower against AV14.  Long story short, if you're worried about Heldrakes, Vendettas, and Stormravens, Land Raiders, Leman Russ front armour, and Necrons in general, take the Brightlances, but otherwise the Starcannons will serve you very well indeed.  Personally, I'd take the Brightlances just because the rest of the Eldar firepower can wreck AV10 and AV11 with ease.

    That's all for this instalment, although I will happily edit this post to include your suggestions for good AA I might have missed, or to address in detail any special considerations that might arise.  Have fun! :)
    « Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 09:09:00 PM by The Mattler »

    Offline Koval, Master Verispex

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    Re: Eldar AA Options: Comparison with Numbers
    « Reply #1 on: June 14, 2013, 02:36:41 AM »
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  • Out of interest, how about just a Fast Shot Reaper Exarch (and some mates, obviously!), with no flakk missile launcher, but sitting behind an Icarus Lascannon?

    While I'm here, are those numbers for the Reapers accounting for their rangefinders, or do they not need to?

    Offline nevaenuffbass

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    Re: Eldar AA Options: Comparison with Numbers
    « Reply #2 on: June 14, 2013, 02:56:57 AM »
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  • Wow mate, you have too much time!! Not to say I don't appreciate what you are doing.

    I think it is worth adding that wave serpents and warp spiders have many uses aside from AA, whereas many other choices don't.

    Could you perhaps look at the crimson hunter exarch with starcannons, and warp spiders if they have guide on them? If you have yet more time? I ask as I as I suspect that both will actually be the best yet against AV10-11. (don't forget that the hunter re-rolls failed glance / pen, so the more shots is probably better than the extra strength)
    « Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 02:58:09 AM by nevaenuffbass »

    Offline The Mattler

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    Re: Eldar AA Options: Comparison with Numbers
    « Reply #3 on: June 14, 2013, 10:56:39 AM »
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  • Out of interest, how about just a Fast Shot Reaper Exarch (and some mates, obviously!), with no flakk missile launcher, but sitting behind an Icarus Lascannon?
    It's really awful, but I added it to the original post for the sake of comparison.

    While I'm here, are those numbers for the Reapers accounting for their rangefinders, or do they not need to?
    The AA calculations contain no saves of any kind from the Flyers; if you want to transform the numbers for a 5+ save, multiply the values I've given by 1.5 (just don't do it for the Reapers unless you're shooting a Heldrake, Nightwing Interceptor, Phoenix Bomber, anything cloaked by a Ravenwing Darkshroud, etc.).  (Added to original post.)

    I think it is worth adding that wave serpents and warp spiders have many uses aside from AA, whereas many other choices don't.
    I mentioned that in the opening paragraph, as well as in some of the entries.  The only units in the list that have no real use are the War Walkers (which can get much more effective weapon configurations).

    Could you perhaps look at the crimson hunter exarch with starcannons, and warp spiders if they have guide on them? If you have yet more time? I ask as I as I suspect that both will actually be the best yet against AV10-11. (don't forget that the hunter re-rolls failed glance / pen, so the more shots is probably better than the extra strength)
    The Crimson Hunter Exarch with Starcannons is really nasty against AV10 and AV11, so I added it to the original post.  Dropping the Brightlances limits its ability to threaten AV13 and AV14, though.

    Providing re-rolls to models with high Ballistic Skill usually results in a drop in efficiency because the cost of the re-roll is disproportionate to the % increase in firepower.  For example, a Crimson Hunter Exarch w/2 Starcannons firing at AV10 with a re-roll loses ~9% of its efficiency while paying 22.22% more in points (which is a third of a Farseer w/Eldar Jetbike and Singing Spear because I assume that the Farseer is using the other two powers elsewhere).  The Warp Spiders, however, are firing Snap Shots, so they get huge benefit from re-rolls, almost doubling their damage output (edited into original post).

    Oddly enough, I did forget the Skyhunter rule, so I edited the original post accordingly; the Crimson Hunter's AA is nothing short of terrifying.

    Offline Koval, Master Verispex

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    Re: Eldar AA Options: Comparison with Numbers
    « Reply #4 on: June 14, 2013, 11:22:26 AM »
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  • The Crimson Hunter Exarch with Starcannons is really nasty against AV10 and AV11, so I added it to the original post.  Dropping the Brightlances limits its ability to threaten AV13 and AV14, though.
    To be fair, as the thread's about anti-air, there shouldn't be that many AV13 or AV14 flyers going around (unless that thing about the Night Shroud having quantum shielding wasn't a load of internet guff -- not having IA12, I can't easily check).

    Offline stezerok

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    Re: The Mattler's Mathhammer: Eldar Anti-Air
    « Reply #5 on: June 14, 2013, 11:37:07 AM »
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  • Mind crunching the numbers for Warwalkers with Scatter Laser/Bright Lance? We should expect the pts/HP to be more efficient than the SL/ML solely due to costing less, but the pts/Ex should be quite a bit more efficient methinks.  :)

    Offline Partninja

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    Re: Eldar AA Options: Comparison with Numbers
    « Reply #6 on: June 14, 2013, 12:22:13 PM »
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  • The Crimson Hunter Exarch with Starcannons is really nasty against AV10 and AV11, so I added it to the original post.  Dropping the Brightlances limits its ability to threaten AV13 and AV14, though.
    To be fair, as the thread's about anti-air, there shouldn't be that many AV13 or AV14 flyers going around (unless that thing about the Night Shroud having quantum shielding wasn't a load of internet guff -- not having IA12, I can't easily check).

    The lances help with AV13/14 tanks. So the dual purpose is being considered.

    Offline The Mattler

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    Re: Eldar AA Options: Comparison with Numbers
    « Reply #7 on: June 14, 2013, 12:36:21 PM »
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  • To be fair, as the thread's about anti-air, there shouldn't be that many AV13 or AV14 flyers going around (unless that thing about the Night Shroud having quantum shielding wasn't a load of internet guff -- not having IA12, I can't easily check).
    Although I didn't go into detail comparing the efficiency of each listed unit against non-Flyer targets, such versatility is a huge factor in list-building.  One of the best properties of many rules in the new Eldar Codex is that many units are specialized against particular targets without forsaking their ability to kill anything else; Bladestorm and Monofilament are two amazing levellers in that respect.  The Crimson Hunter with 2 Brightlances is an important source of damage in the Codex against AV13 and AV14, especially at long range.  There are multiple Necron and CSM players at my LGS, so that firepower niche is crucial.

    Mind crunching the numbers for Warwalkers with Scatter Laser/Bright Lance? We should expect the pts/HP to be more efficient than the SL/ML solely due to costing less, but the pts/Ex should be quite a bit more efficient methinks.  :)

    That would be the case if the Brightlance also had Skyfire, but it doesn't.  I'm not going to be adding it to the original post because it's neither an intended anti-air option, nor a good one.  For example, the average points spent by that configuration to remove a hull point from an AV10 Flyer is 131.54, making it worse than all of the other options listed.

    Offline Maximus31192

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    Re: The Mattler's Mathhammer: Eldar Anti-Air
    « Reply #8 on: June 15, 2013, 02:47:02 AM »
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  • What about Hornets? Would love to see the mathammer on hornet AA. I'm thinking either 2 pulse lasers or 2 scatter lasers or 1 one of each. Don't forget Hornets pay the old prices for heavy weapons so bright lances and starcannons are prohibitively expensive.

    Cheers.
    « Last Edit: June 15, 2013, 10:54:22 AM by Maximus31192 »

    Offline nevaenuffbass

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    Re: The Mattler's Mathhammer: Eldar Anti-Air
    « Reply #9 on: June 15, 2013, 05:32:26 AM »
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  • Mattler, if you feel like it, another interesting set of stats would be the  points to inflict a GEQ/MEQ/TEQ wound from our basic troops shooting: guiardians, jetbikes, avengers, serpents (scatter/shuri), swooping hawks, warp spiders, dark reapers.

    Of course, only if you can be bothered.

    Offline The Mattler

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    Re: The Mattler's Mathhammer: Eldar Anti-Air
    « Reply #10 on: June 15, 2013, 11:46:30 AM »
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  • What about Hornets? Would love to see the mathammer on hornet AA. I'm think either 2 pulse lasers or 2 scatter lasers. Don't forget Hornets pay the old prices for heavy weapons so bright lances and starcannons are prohibitively expensive.
    I added a note to the original post to address the pile of S6 weapon configurations, but long story short, the Hornet with 2 Scatterlasers will be less efficient by ~20% than the War Walker equivalent (although it will be tougher, so take that into account).  Hornets with 2 Pulse Lasers are terrible at anti-air; for example, they pay 225.00 pts/HP without a re-roll and 135.82 pts/HP with a re-roll (that's with a full squadron to maximize the Farseer's effect).  See this thread for a quick comparison of some Hornet builds, which are still worth taking over Vypers: A place for hornets?

    Mattler, if you feel like it, another interesting set of stats would be the  points to inflict a GEQ/MEQ/TEQ wound from our basic troops shooting: guiardians, jetbikes, avengers, serpents (scatter/shuri), swooping hawks, warp spiders, dark reapers.
    I've already crunched all of those numbers for every non-HQ unit in the Codex, finding pts/wound stats against 13 different toughness/save combinations.  Don't worry, you'll see them when I get round to posting them. ;)


    Offline Pershore

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    Re: The Mattler's Mathhammer: Eldar Anti-Air
    « Reply #11 on: June 17, 2013, 06:15:45 PM »
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  • Which is the best scoring unit at AA?  9 Jetbikes with 3 Shuriken Cannons and Guide/Prescience I presume?

    Offline Narse

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    Re: The Mattler\'s Mathhammer: Eldar Anti-Air
    « Reply #12 on: June 17, 2013, 09:46:03 PM »
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  • It would probably be wraithguard.

    Post Merge: June 18, 2013, 01:01:07 AM
    In the future, please use the modify button. Double posting is against the forum rules, and for that reason, the system merged your posts.

    I had a friend do some statistical analysis on some more eldar anti-air options.  So, I can't comment on the science except to say he ran 10,000 rolls instead of actually calculating the percentages (for some strange reason).  Anyway this seemed to be a good place to post the results.


    In summation, Wave Serpent with Scatter Lasers + Serpent Shield has a 12.8% chance of exploding a destroying Flyer.
    In summation, a Guided Crimson Hunter has a 66% chance of destroying a Helldrake, and is rather insane at destroying weaker flyers.  Also, Guide > Exarch, and without Guide or Exarch killing the Helldrake is down to 51%.


    He also goes onto to test other things such as Warwalker squads vs flyers, all the Wave Serpent with Scatters + Serpent Shield vs various flyer AV's, and Crimson Hunter vs various flyer AV's.  Results below.
    [spoiler]
    These are assuming that any pen other than a 6 is disregarded and that they always evade for a jink save. A boom is just the plane wrecking from glancing to death or exploding. Each set was done with 10,000 trial runs. The first percentage is your chance to hit with the scatter laser, second is with the serpent shield, third is the chance to boom the plane and the last number is the average number of hull points lost by the plane.

    AV 10
    totalScatterHits: 3089.0
    totalShieldHits: 2721.77142857
    totalBooms: 2236
    totalHullPoints: 12274
    30.89 % 27.2177142857 % 22.36 % 1.2274

    AV 11
    totalScatterHits: 3050.5
    totalShieldHits: 2704.86190476
    totalBooms: 1286
    totalHullPoints: 8789
    30.505 % 27.0486190476 % 12.86 % 0.8789

    AV 12
    totalScatterHits: 3069.5
    totalShieldHits: 2767.68809524
    totalBooms: 554
    totalHullPoints: 5481
    30.695 % 27.6768809524 % 5.54 % 0.5481

    Heldrake
    totalScatterHits: 3023.0
    totalShieldHits: 2721.08571429
    totalBooms: 294
    totalHullPoints: 4009
    30.23 % 27.2108571429 % 2.94 % 0.4009



    Crimson Hunter stats with chances with guide and/or an exarch

    AV10
    totalHits: 6681.5
    totalBooms: 6588
    totalHullPoints: 23396
    66.815 % 65.88 % 2.3396

    With Guide
    totalHits: 8931.5
    totalBooms: 8295
    totalHullPoints: 32024
    89.315 % 82.95 % 3.2024

    With Exarch
    totalHits: 8322.75
    totalBooms: 7801
    totalHullPoints: 29646
    83.2275 % 78.01 % 2.9646

    With Guide and Exarch
    totalHits: 9720.5
    totalBooms: 8698
    totalHullPoints: 34557
    97.205 % 86.98 % 3.4557

    AV11
    totalHits: 6674.5
    totalBooms: 6039
    totalHullPoints: 22381
    66.745 % 60.39 % 2.2381

    With Guide
    totalHits: 8899.75
    totalBooms: 7708
    totalHullPoints: 29875
    88.9975 % 77.08 % 2.9875

    With Exarch
    totalHits: 8347.75
    totalBooms: 7364
    totalHullPoints: 28169
    83.4775 % 73.64 % 2.8169

    With Guide and Exarch
    totalHits: 9723.0
    totalBooms: 8192
    totalHullPoints: 32345
    97.23 % 81.92 % 3.2345

    AV12
    totalHits: 6679.75
    totalBooms: 5153
    totalHullPoints: 19729
    66.7975 % 51.53 % 1.9729

    With Guide
    totalHits: 8878.25
    totalBooms: 6719
    totalHullPoints: 26438
    88.7825 % 67.19 % 2.6438

    With Exarch
    totalHits: 8364.75
    totalBooms: 6335
    totalHullPoints: 24878
    83.6475 % 63.35 % 2.4878

    With Guide and Exarch
    totalHits: 9715.25
    totalBooms: 7277
    totalHullPoints: 28805
    97.1525 % 72.77 % 2.8805

    Guide > then Exarch.



    The above is War Walkers that get rerolls from guide or prescience.  The left percentage makes no sense. Disregard.
     AV10
    Scatter Lasers
    totalHits: 73259
    totalBooms: 5337
    totalHullPoints: 24602
    732.59 % 53.37 % 2.4602

    Bright Lances
    totalHits: 18293
    totalBooms: 3589
    totalHullPoints: 10151
    182.93 % 35.89 % 1.0151

    AV11
    Scatter Lasers
    totalHits: 73196
    totalBooms: 2903
    totalHullPoints: 16119
    731.96 % 29.03 % 1.6119

    Bright Lances
    totalHits: 18537
    totalBooms: 2809
    totalHullPoints: 8216
    185.37 % 28.09 % 0.8216

    AV12
    Scatter Lasers
    totalHits: 73213
    totalBooms: 471
    totalHullPoints: 8093
    732.13 % 4.71 % 0.8093

    Bright Lances
    totalHits: 18159
    totalBooms: 1876
    totalHullPoints: 6023
    181.59 % 18.76 % 0.6023
    [/spoiler]
    « Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 01:01:07 AM by Narse »
    Tournament Record with new Eldar
    14-2-2, with 2 first place finishes, and a 2nd in a GT

    Tournament Record with Old Eldar
    6-2

    Offline The Mattler

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    Re: The Mattler's Mathhammer: Eldar Anti-Air
    « Reply #13 on: June 18, 2013, 12:29:28 PM »
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  • That's also a valid approach, as it gives you an idea of what a unit can do on a per-model basis instead of per-point.  I do have a couple of questions/comments, though.

    1) While it is expected that Guide does more damage than the Exarch upgrade for the Crimson Hunter (getting a 88.89% hit chance vs. 83.33%), it also costs an extra 12.50% of the Crimson Hunter's base cost compared to the Exarch upgrade.  Still, it's fine if you really need that extra assurance in the moment, but be careful not to rely on it, lest someone pick off the Farseer.

    2) Why is there no mention of a Shuriken Cannon on the Wave Serpents?

    Offline Pershore

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    Re: The Mattler\'s Mathhammer: Eldar Anti-Air
    « Reply #14 on: June 18, 2013, 04:21:40 PM »
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  • It would probably be wraithguard.
    I had a friend do some statistical analysis on some more eldar anti-air options.  So, I can't comment on the science except to say he ran 10,000 rolls instead of actually calculating the percentages (for some strange reason). 
    D'oh, I forgot about Wraithguard, yes, if you want to unlock them and can get the range to work then they're definitely on top.

    If' you're interested in statistics, it sounds like your friend was running a Monte Carlo analysis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Carlo_method

    Offline Narse

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    Re: The Mattler's Mathhammer: Eldar Anti-Air
    « Reply #15 on: June 19, 2013, 12:14:36 AM »
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  • 1) While it is expected that Guide does more damage than the Exarch upgrade for the Crimson Hunter (getting a 88.89% hit chance vs. 83.33%), it also costs an extra 12.50% of the Crimson Hunter's base cost compared to the Exarch upgrade.  Still, it's fine if you really need that extra assurance in the moment, but be careful not to rely on it, lest someone pick off the Farseer.

    I'm assuming the Farseer is going to be in a squad, guiding someone safely from within it.

    2) Why is there no mention of a Shuriken Cannon on the Wave Serpents?

    If you really want a Flyer dead the Serpent Shield is more reliable then the shuriken cannon, which has a lower Strength and fires slower on average.  Don't get me wrong you could Snapshot the Shuriken Cannon, but myself might not be purchasing that upgrade all the time.


    Dummied out some stats. Please don't post stats for things, it's against the forum rules. --Koval
    « Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 02:25:22 AM by Autarch Koval'andril »
    Tournament Record with new Eldar
    14-2-2, with 2 first place finishes, and a 2nd in a GT

    Tournament Record with Old Eldar
    6-2

    Offline The Mattler

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    Re: The Mattler's Mathhammer: Eldar Anti-Air
    « Reply #16 on: June 19, 2013, 06:05:39 PM »
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  • I'm assuming the Farseer is going to be in a squad, guiding someone safely from within it.
    The main thrust of what I said is that buffing a Crimson Hunter with a Farseer gives you less benefit per point than upgrading to an Exarch and has the added downside of having to protect the Farseer (regardless of how that might be accomplished).  To be fair, that 'upgrade' to a Crimson Hunter via Farseer is transferable to another unit if the Crimson Hunter dies, so that's some consolation.

    If you really want a Flyer dead the Serpent Shield is more reliable then the shuriken cannon, which has a lower Strength and fires slower on average.  Don't get me wrong you could Snapshot the Shuriken Cannon, but myself might not be purchasing that upgrade all the time.
    What I'm suggesting is that you move the Serpent 6" or less and fire all of the guns at full BS.  Since flyers show up Turn on 2-3, that won't do much (if anything) to hamper the Wave Serpent's transport role.  The Shuriken Cannon is a great buy for its cost; add one to every Vyper (just 1), Falcon, and Wave Serpent you can, with only the Fire Prism and Night Spinner having much of a case for omitting it.  Even the Night Spinner benefits from it when it gets close enough to torrent (as does the Night Spinner's superior cousin, the Warp Hunter).

     

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