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Author Topic: Tyranids - fix or fire? (Was Re: 6th edition; The state of play)  (Read 4396 times)

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Offline wper34

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Re: Tyranids - fix or fire? (Was Re: 6th edition; The state of play)
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2012, 04:46:15 PM »
I had a thought the other day. How about a biomorph, upgrade or special rule of some kind that grants units Hammer of Wrath under certain conditions? It still provides an advantage to defenders for being in cover but allows Tyranids to do some damage on the charge. If given to horde units it should even things up a little to give Tyranids a fighting chance when attacking cover

The only real downside to hammer of wath is that it's not a big deal. As it requires base contact and happens before pile in you're not likely to get a whole units worth of attacks simply due to your own models blocking the way.

I think it'll take more than half a dozen str three attacks to fix the problem. Although I can't think of a better idea...
 

Actually, I don't think 'Hammer of Wrath' would be a good idea mainly due to unbalance issue in gameplay...

Imagine a scenario of 3-5 units each with 30 Hormaguants multiple charging several small enemy units at once. Sure, some may not make it to the targets due to overwatch, but for those that made it, there is a high potential of them wiping out a fair chunk of the enemy first with 'Hammer of Wrath' before they get struck back. The situation could be even worst for the case where Nids player decide to perform isolated attacks on a few units rather than multi-charging.

In order to make Combat Nids army work again, I think we could probably do the following:

- Make Hormaguants being 'Beast' type again -> able to move faster to be where they want before assault
- Allow or make Genestealers having 4+ armour saves -> increase survivability against overwatch


Additionally, I think the idea of old frag grenade rule does not sound too bad either as a solution.

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Offline Master Bio-Titan BT

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Re: Tyranids - fix or fire? (Was Re: 6th edition; The state of play)
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2012, 08:20:27 AM »
Well, I say that if you can't beat them then join them!  I made two units of spore dropping Devil-Gants and they do really well especially when deploying them into cover out of the spore!  These two units make up the compulsory requirements for two Troop Tervigons'.  Because of the decreased effectiveness of Hormagaunts, I am play testing them without upgrades and rush them forward as usual for distraction and to save on points.


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Offline faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)

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Re: Tyranids - fix or fire? (Was Re: 6th edition; The state of play)
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2012, 11:38:27 AM »
I think we need some new tricks to get around/counter the new meta. To this effect, I created a thread in the Forge on trying to fix Lictors.

Lictors for 6th; trying to fix them

While not all the ideas there may be good, I think this is the way we need to evolve.

I think we need a new psychic table as well - some powers there to really helps us out.

Perhaps a power that is kind-of a Lash of Submission, but geared for assault instead...

Bad Ass Name of New Power
The cover that the enemy holds grows tendrils and grubs crawling all over it. This is a witchfire power that automatically hits if the psychic test is passed. The unit may not gain the benefits of cover when being charged this turn

Just a few ideas - Will try and dredge up some more...
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Offline Locarno

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Re: Tyranids - fix or fire? (Was Re: 6th edition; The state of play)
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2012, 02:01:40 PM »
To be honest, I see the bugs as falling into three categories;

Flesh hooks - I have no problem with flesh hooks working as offensive grenades. However, they shouldn't be handed out like candy to everyone. Lictors having them is fine, but I don't want to see them universally issued because they shouldn't be. Not every bug species uses flesh hooks.

Gaunts - Termagant or Hormagaunt, these guys don't need grenades. They just don't. I concur that not having grenades means you'll take extra casualties assaulting a defensible position, but to my mind, fair enough. These are, as someone said, meant to be "you run out of bullets before I run out of bodies". Make them a point or more cheaper - so a brood of the same cost can just ignore the casualties - rather than giving them grenade-a-likes. The best upgrade for a hormagaunt is another one behind it, and its main protection is putting another one in front of it...

Genestealers - now here (unlike the disposable bugs) I see Chuckle's point. These are supposed to be the elite, lightning-fast ninja alien killing machines of Space Hulk, and the presence of someone's waist-high herbacious border shouldn't leave them striking after necrons. Equally, whilst they could do with being cheaper, making them cheap enough to ignore the casualties dilutes their elite feel relative to the smaller bugs above, and makes them stupidly overpowered if they do actually catch someone in the open.

Genestealers should be (a) fast, (b) encouraged to stick to the shadows and ruins xenomorph stylee and (c) able to dash out of said shadows and remove your vocal chords before you can yell "contact front!". I therefore propose a nice, simple rule for them:

Genestealers ignore difficult terrain.

No difficult terrain, no reduced charge distance and no initiative 1. Problem goes away at source and you are able to move around the bits of the board which are a genestealer's natural environment as a side benefit.





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Offline Benis

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Re: Tyranids - fix or fire? (Was Re: 6th edition; The state of play)
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2012, 04:24:42 PM »
I agree with Locarno's points, but it wouldn't hurt for Hormaguants to have some sort of rule that helps them engage more completely even with a big unit, something like they used to have (I think?) with increased range for being able to supply their attacks or some such.

Offline Raktra (So long, I guess)

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Re: Tyranids - fix or fire? (Was Re: 6th edition; The state of play)
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2012, 05:11:05 PM »
Per the BDB FAQ, even if you ignore terrain, you still suffer the I penalty, so they'd still need some grenade alternative.

Offline Autarch Fingolfin

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Re: Tyranids - fix or fire? (Was Re: 6th edition; The state of play)
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2012, 05:53:43 PM »
well that's why you give the genestealers a special rule that allows them to strike at full init and ignore the terrain.  Howling Banshee masks ignore the initiative penalty when assaulting through cover so there's already a precedent.

Offline Hymirl

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Re: Tyranids - fix or fire? (Was Re: 6th edition; The state of play)
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2012, 06:29:20 PM »
If gaunts got the rule to be engaged at 4" instead of the normal amount that would make a big mob able to mob stuff more. I agree with locarno's point that they aren't be made too good individually. Appropriately cheaper points cost for a light combat gribbley in a shooting guns world should be made.

I also like the fix for genestealers, yes it would have to be 'ignores cover plus' but it could work really well. I was also thinking about allowing them an exception allowing them to outflank and assault. Currently "outflank and stand around like goons" is a rather poor option!
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Offline xrayman

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Re: Tyranids - fix or fire? (Was Re: 6th edition; The state of play)
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2012, 07:13:43 PM »
Ouch.  I haven't played with the Nids with the 6th edition yet.  Doesn't sound very promising.

Offline Hive Fleet Bahamut

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Re: Tyranids - fix or fire? (Was Re: 6th edition; The state of play)
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2012, 09:36:01 PM »
So far in this edition I've only played against variations of gk and a marine or two, so unfortunately I haven't been able to experience the xenos blood.  My experiences though seem to show a lot of promise in our shooting support.  We are a race that adapts and overcomes, and although everyone says cc is dead, our methods are just...  Different.

  I jumped on the wagon and dropped Genestealers for a while, but my love for them made it so they have seen some action.  I can no longer outflank rush, but really I see them as our new counter assault unit.  Broodlord plus 5 or so "extra wounds" is really my new take on them.  Sure they get shot to ribbons if they are out of cover, but as counter assault they will always have something running ahead.  Strike Squads/Paladins are more hesitant to bump your Tervigants off their objective if Genes are itching nearby.  It also clears up the issue of no grenades on our elite cc unit, because as counter assault they don't need any and can beneift from their full speed.  Also Ymgarls just make me smile all the time.

I just picked up my second Tervi, and will be buying a Flyrant/Swarmy kit hoping to magnetize for both.  I already have one Flyrant and have always loved my conversion but it saw little action in 5th.  I have yet to see a Flyer so it has pretty much seen free reign the one game I used it.  My MVP is usually the Swarmlord, the Doom or Devilgants. 

I like most of the changes in this edition.  some of them are bad, and others just make us adjust, (YOU ARE PLAYING TYRANIDS RIGHT??)  I could care less about assault grenades, as my fodder is my grenade.  MC get cover everywhere? Great.  Hive Guard not crammed down your throat to not get mopped?  Good I only have one squad.  One word: BIOMANCY. (Swarmlord +Iron Arm and Warp Speed = Dead Draigowing, and that's a top tier deathstar no?)

Ok I admit, I did like All reserves, and the stupid no allies/forti usage should at least equate to not having to accept challenges.  Other than that though I think we at least bumped up a tier if anything.  Maybe I just need to see some more flyers?

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