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Telepathy, Divination or Eldar powers?

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Telepathy, Divination or Eldar powers?
« on: September 30, 2012, 06:29:07 AM »
 

Atnas

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I'm kind of torn between the psychic power options, along with what type of Farseer to actually use. So far I've been almost exclusively sticking to the Eldar powers because my gameplan resolves around Fortune a lot, but I've been looking at the rulebook powers and I'm very tempted to try out both. For example, it feels to me that only Eldrad is worth using in combination with the rulebook powers because you are very likely to get at least 2 of the powers you want while using a normal Farseer with 1-2 powers really need to stick to the Eldar powers or risk getting useless stuff.

I realise the choice of Psychic Powers can vary greatly depending on your opponent and own armylist. However, I'd love to hear about your experiences using the different powers- are there any special powers and units you feel work really well together? I'd love to put a 4+ invulnerable on a Wraithlord for example, or try to combine Warp Spiders with the power that forces people to reroll succesfull saves.

Are there any powers you think are underrated, or overrated? What to stay away from?
 

Re: Telepathy, Divination or Eldar powers?
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2012, 07:43:42 AM »
 

29+12

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or try to combine Warp Spiders with the power that forces people to reroll succesfull saves.

My brain just exploded when i read that! Can't believe i didn't even think about it.

Personally i think 5 and 6 are the only powers that aren't amazingly useful, with 6 still having some use if you're employing a lot of reserves/outflankers. 5 would be the only one i'd swap out to primaris without thinking about it.
 

Re: Telepathy, Divination or Eldar powers?
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2012, 07:57:46 AM »
 

Killing Time

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I'm currently sticking with Doom in my competitive list, as so far I haven't found anything to have anything like the army-wide utility that this power has.

However, when I did try out the new powers I found that Malediction was pretty useful, as was using the ignore cover power on a unit of pathfinders.
Psychic shriek is also pretty tasty if you typically take mindwar and favour this aggressive approach from your farseer.


 

Re: Telepathy, Divination or Eldar powers?
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2012, 08:18:49 AM »
 

Atnas

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or try to combine Warp Spiders with the power that forces people to reroll succesfull saves.

My brain just exploded when i read that! Can't believe i didn't even think about it.

Personally i think 5 and 6 are the only powers that aren't amazingly useful, with 6 still having some use if you're employing a lot of reserves/outflankers. 5 would be the only one i'd swap out to primaris without thinking about it.

I assume you mean 5 and 6 of Divination, and not Telepathy? I'm not sure I value 6 a whole lot since I can't use it on deep striking units, and I want my Yhwh-condemned Warp Spiders on the field :P It would be brilliant if I could manipulate scatter with it aswell, but nope. The problem is getting the power that forces you to reroll saves, and unless you're buying a lot of powers for your Farseer (which you can't use anyway) then chances are awfully random.

That's why I think only Eldrad can use the rulebook powers well. He already has all of the Eldar powers, so if the matchup recquires it he can stick to them. If you feel that the rulebook powers could work better in your game, then you can get 4 of the rulebook ones and make sure you get at least 1-2 good ones which ought to be enough.

But imagine a Farseer with only two powers... man, chances are so low of getting the good ones >_>

I'm currently sticking with Doom in my competitive list, as so far I haven't found anything to have anything like the army-wide utility that this power has.

However, when I did try out the new powers I found that Malediction was pretty useful, as was using the ignore cover power on a unit of pathfinders.
Psychic shriek is also pretty tasty if you typically take mindwar and favour this aggressive approach from your farseer

My own list doesn't really need Doom, I favor Fortune a lot more. I use a Wraithwall, and that means my Farseer is always marching up towards the enemy. The problem I have is that nothing wants to come within 16" (6 + 12" shooting range) of the Wraithguard, and so psychic shriek is always rendered sort of useless. Mind War can be good, it's actually my like... only counter to monstrous fliers at the moment and that's really fickle still :P

 

Re: Telepathy, Divination or Eldar powers?
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2012, 08:36:53 AM »
 

Fenris

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I'm actually thinking in whole different patterns, I think Eldrad should keep his eldar powers, why would you want to switch 5 powers, for 4 random powers?

I agree with 29+12 about the powers 5 and 6 in the divination tree are not particularly useful, I also find the telepathy powers to be too situational, so it's basically 4 powers you want from the BFB.

Now I prefer having 2 farseers when the point limit justifies it, one with a combination of doom, guide and fortune, I don't use mind war or E.storm unless the psykers name is Eldrad. The other farseer takes 1-2 powers from the divination table.

Some combos that may occur then are particularly powerful such as guide/prescience + doom + misfortune/perfect timing or forewarning + fortune.

Say I use Eldrad and a seer with 2 BFB powers, I would probably roll on the divination table, if I get a power I want (probably all of power 1-4 depending on army) I will roll a second time on the divination table, and if the that power is not one I want I simply trade it for the primaris power (prescience).

If OTOH the first power I roll turns up to be a power I don't want I will trade it for the primaris power and then roll on the telepathy table since if I get a power I don't want or have any use of I can at least trade it for the primaris power psychic shriek, which is not that awesome but always useful in some way.

Don't forget that you should probably make sure you have a decent unit in your army to take advantage of each of your preferred powers, so you can deploy your seer depending on what powers he gets.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 08:38:36 AM by Fenris »
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Re: Telepathy, Divination or Eldar powers?
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2012, 10:07:13 AM »
 

29+12

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I assume you mean 5 and 6 of Divination, and not Telepathy?

Oh yea, telepathy didn't even register as a choice in my mind as it's just totally outclassed by both our codex powers and divination. That is unless you are playing a friendly game where loosing matters not a jot. In which case ALL WAYS roll on telepathy even if you have only one power to swap out, the chances for some hilarity inducing powers are just too good to pass up on =]
 

Re: Telepathy, Divination or Eldar powers?
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2012, 10:14:01 AM »
 

Atnas

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I'm not sure if I'd class Telepathy as something so useless. I really like the idea of taking over the opponents heaviest/hardest hitter (I seem to be facing flying monsters a lot as of late) and firing it at something nearby... perhaps even against another flier, y'know? I think Terrify is pretty cool aswell, but then again that's because I'm up against Tyranids and Daemons. Making one of those units run would be fantastic! Invisibility could be great aswell, altough... it's 2 warp charge and the 4+ invul of the Divination tree is better. Combined with conceal it creates a 2+ cover save for my Wraithguards of course which is silly!

I guess it sort of is like... Eldar powers > Divination > Telepathy, since you can build your army around the Eldar powers but not around Primaris powers.
 

Re: Telepathy, Divination or Eldar powers?
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2012, 11:02:13 AM »
 

Irisado

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Moderator Comment Just a reminder not to get carried away with describing what the rulebook powers do please. We all have a copy of the rulebook, and some posts are getting close to the line where I would have to edit them.

I've thought about experimenting with the powers from the rulebook, but Doom is too integral to my army, as I have so many units which can benefit from it, that I can't warrant giving it up.  For armies which are less reliant on Doom, then I think that it's worth experimenting with the powers from the rulebook, especially in view of the fact that some of them are similar to Guide and Fortune, yet have a longer range.
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Re: Telepathy, Divination or Eldar powers?
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2012, 11:21:37 AM »
 

Atnas

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That's the thing, really. My army is full of Wraithguard, Wraithlords, Warp Spiders, War Walkers (that's a lot of W D:) and lots of other S6 stuff. Doom isn't usually that much needed! Fortune is really the only power I use, and when I get my Wraithseer for the 4+ Feel No Pain rule, even fortune may become redundant... which is why I'm now looking for new uses :) With my Farseer in a Wraithguard unit, Overwatch on my full ballistic skill will be ludicrous!

Edit: Oh jesus, I just realised this! This combo, I reeaaally like it.

Eldrad with Divination, aiming for Forewarning.

Wraithseer, using mainly Deliverance.

10 Wraithguard

2x Wraithlords

I can put Forewarning on both of my Wraithlords, while the Wraithguard receive Deliverence. The Wraithseer will have to rely on his own invulnerable save and extra wound. That's one hell of a tough Wraithsection! D:
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 11:34:37 AM by Atnas »
 

Re: Telepathy, Divination or Eldar powers?
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2012, 08:05:52 PM »
 

WhiteNightshade

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Atnas, I too have a wraithunit from hell.  It's very expensive.  I believe that Eldrad should take Divination powers, only because he gets so many opportunities to get the good ones, and they can be especially good when used together.  I have another farseer that I use with Eldar powers.  He uses Doom and Fortune, as Guide can be replaced by Prescience (which if Eldrad has, he can cast twice, at better effect than Guide anyway), and I don't think that Eldritch Storm and Mind War are powerful enough to keep me from trying different powers.  I like Divination for Eldrad, and I use it this way:  Ideal spell list for Eldrad is Prescience, Forboding, Misfortune and Perfect Timing, though the last one is not essential at all, and rarely gets cast.

Here is my unit composition:

10 Wraithguard (Spiritseer, Enhance)
Eldrad
Farseer (Doom, Fortune, Spirit Stones, RoWit)
Baron Sathonyx

In the turn before this unit were in danger of being charged... even by an uber unit, here are the spells I cast: Doom and Misfortune on threatening unit, Prescience, Fortune and Forboding on the Wraithguard (oh, and I also have a Wraithseer (double FOC), who casts Deliverance on the Wraithguard... for giggles).

Here's what happens: [Note, I think I'm okay describing effects, as long as I don't state what the source of those effects are.  If I'm wrong, please edit.] Wraithguard are an amazingly tough unit, especially when they benefit from Fortune, and the Baron's boosts.  Adding Enhance makes them an even more effective unit in an assault.

If I only had one farseer, or just Eldrad, I would take Eldar powers, because Fortune is absolutely essential to my build, but I run two, and if I had Eldrad running Eldar powers, he wouldn't use many of the powers, and probably just cast Guide, Doom, and Fortune multiple times.  Using a regular farseer, even one with stones, on the divination list, I would take Prescience, and then my final power would be an absolutely random spell, some of which are useless to me, either because I already have that effect, or because it's not useful without another spell on the list (which I couldn't get).  If you're trying to build an army around a BRB spell list, Eldrad is essential, as he has the best chance of getting what you want (and the ability to cast it all).  But, like I said, Fortune for me is essential.  I don't open my case without it.

Also, I think Telepathy is junk.  They all sound cool, but most of them rely on the opponent's leadership, and I have found morale effects to be underwhelming in 40K, given that everyone is either Ld 10, Fearless or And they shall know no fear.  Also, the last two are two charge powers (and don't seem worth it), meaning that even a farseer with spirit stones is tapped out on one spell, and Eldrad only has room for one more.  Even Psychic Shriek is poor compensation for those other junk powers.

I've been running an Ulthwe list for a looooong time now, so many farseers with interlocking powers is my bread and butter, and I really think that divination and the eldar powers work very well together for those willing to invest in lots of farseers.

Moderator Comment There was too much description regarding how Fortune and Enhance work in relation to the forum rules on copyright. Post edited accordingly - Iris.
« Last Edit: October 1, 2012, 06:47:36 AM by Irisado »
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Re: Telepathy, Divination or Eldar powers?
« Reply #10 on: October 1, 2012, 12:59:46 AM »
 

Atnas

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Where do you get the 2++ rerollable from? I don't think anyone in their right mind would charge that Wraithguard unit when it has been buffed to that extent :P A fantastic deterrent of course, but I'd be careful about not throwing too much stuff its way or the enemy might just focus fire something else down!
« Last Edit: October 1, 2012, 01:08:41 AM by Atnas »
 

Re: Telepathy, Divination or Eldar powers?
« Reply #11 on: October 1, 2012, 02:02:25 AM »
 

WhiteNightshade

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2++ comes from the Baron, provided he's the closest target, which requires some planning on your part.  And the trick is to get it into a position where they can't ignore it.  The Wraithseer's D-Cannon is great for attracting attention...
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Re: Telepathy, Divination or Eldar powers?
« Reply #12 on: October 1, 2012, 02:30:57 AM »
 

Atnas

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Ah, I see. That feels too filthy for me to be honest :P
 

Re: Telepathy, Divination or Eldar powers?
« Reply #13 on: October 1, 2012, 07:15:30 AM »
 

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Would I be right in saying that a unit of Harlequins that have the 4+ invulnerable power cast on them would get a 2+ invulnerable save? Havn't got my rule book on me to check.
 

Re: Telepathy, Divination or Eldar powers?
« Reply #14 on: October 1, 2012, 08:52:02 AM »
 

Irisado

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Would I be right in saying that a unit of Harlequins that have the 4+ invulnerable power cast on them would get a 2+ invulnerable save? Havn't got my rule book on me to check.

Moderator Comment Please check in your rulebook when you have access to it. It's against the forum rules for us to give you answers to questions which are clearly covered in the rules. Once you read the rules, but don't know the answer to question, then by all means start a thread in the rules board.
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Re: Telepathy, Divination or Eldar powers?
« Reply #15 on: October 1, 2012, 05:27:53 PM »
 

Atnas

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Been thinking about trying to trying to make use of the power that forces people to reroll saves in conjunction with Warp Spiders deep striking and Dark Eldar Reaver bikes using their turbo-boost ability to support the Warp Spiders flank. That would be a ludicrous amount of stats removed hits, and the units could support each other very well.

Moderator Comment Please don't post weapon specific stats, it's against the forum rules - Iris.
« Last Edit: October 2, 2012, 05:44:39 AM by Irisado »
 

Re: Telepathy, Divination or Eldar powers?
« Reply #16 on: October 2, 2012, 02:57:31 AM »
 

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I think it depends very much on your army build.

My army is built around seer council and warp spiders so misfortune gives me much better return than doom. For an army with blade storming avengers at its core, doom is statistically better.

The problem is getting the powers you want from the table which, if you're gunning after prescience and misfortune, costs you an extra 80 points or so (3 powers + stones). Eldrad makes this more manageable because he comes with those rolls and all his other goodies already.

It's about army composition more than anything else.
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Re: Telepathy, Divination or Eldar powers?
« Reply #17 on: October 2, 2012, 11:17:14 AM »
 

Dev Null

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My army is built around seer council and warp spiders so misfortune gives me much better return than doom. For an army with blade storming avengers at its core, doom is statistically better.
Depends on your opponents too.

Statistically, you're better off re-rolling the thing you had the least chance of succeeding at.  So Doom is only better than Misfortune if your chance to wound is lower than your chance to penetrate your opponent's armour.  For bladestorming avengers, if you're facing Terminators... you mostly want to be somewhere else.  But if you've got to be there, you want Misfortune.

For your warp spiders, with good strength and no AP, you're almost always right; Misfortune is the tool of choice.  (For amusement's sake, I had a quick look for counter-examples in the back of the rulebook - Chaos Spawn, the C'Tan Shard,  and Gretchin?)
« Last Edit: October 2, 2012, 11:22:10 AM by Dev Null »
 

Re: Telepathy, Divination or Eldar powers?
« Reply #18 on: October 2, 2012, 12:25:54 PM »
 

Atnas

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Against Space Marines, misfortune is better than Doom for Dire Avengers (and Warp Spiders, obviously).

That's the beauty of Eldrad, I suppose. He's really the only guy we've got who can choose to take one of the rulebook powers depending on what he's up again, since odds are he'll get the powers he wants. A 2-power Farseer cannot do that.
 

Re: Telepathy, Divination or Eldar powers?
« Reply #19 on: October 2, 2012, 02:33:48 PM »
 

Dev Null

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So to drag this back towards the original topic (since I was one of the people derailing it):

Of the codex powers, there are 3 that people tend to build a list around: Guide, Fortune, and Doom.

Prescience is _way_ better than Guide, and you can guarantee getting it.  If Guide was all you really wanted, take Prescience instead.

Misfortune is better than Doom for lower-T / higher save opponents, unless you already have the AP to punch through their armour.  Given the mass of S6 and the not-a-lot of AP that the Eldar tend to field, I'd lean towards Misfortune, but it depends on the list; tons of Pathfinders would just be wasting it half the time.  And if you build a list around it and don't get it, you're screwed.

Forewarning is better than Fortune if you're facing a lot of AP, but much much worse if you were casting it on things with higher saves.  On my Wraithguard, against most opponents, I'd rather have their normal armour rerollable and a cover rerollable for the few things with too much AP.  On my Harlies with ridiculous cover saves, I'd _much_ rather have the cover saves reroll.  There are definitely some situations where i'd prefer Forewarning, but it tends to be in making weak things decent, rather than making good things rock-hard, which is what I usually use Fortune for.  And again, you can't guarantee getting it.

As others have noted, Eldrad is the real winner here.  You can build a list around Prescience and count on it.  You can build a list around Fortune and count on it.  You can build a list around Misfortune, and Eldrad will probably get it for you.  And if you took Eldrad, you can wait and see roughly what you're facing before you decide if Doom would be better.
 

 


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