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Author Topic: Whip Coils and Challenges  (Read 1791 times)

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Offline CloverSquirrel

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Whip Coils and Challenges
« on: September 12, 2012, 09:03:23 PM »
We had a interesting situation today at my Local club involving my Wraiths, Destroyer Lord and a enemy Librarian. When I charged into combat with his unit a Wraith ended up in base contact with the Librarian, however the DLord was not in base contact with the Librarian himself.

Now at the start of the Fight Sub-Phase he issued a challenge with his Librarian which I accepted with my DLord and he moved his Librarian so it was in base contact with the DLord, however it was no longer in base contact with the Wraith. The thing we couldn't agree on then was if his Librarian was still at Initiative 1.

I made the point that as the FAQ for Necrons says that a model in base contact with the Wraith becomes Initiative 1 at the start of the Fight Sub-Phase and stays that way until the end of the assault phase, He made the point that because he moved his Librarian away from the Wraith that he would be normal initiative.

In the end we rolled off for it and I won so for then he was initiative 1, what does everyone here think of this though, would the Librarian of been initiative 1 for the rest of the assault phase? Or would he be normal initiative when he moved away?
Battle record:
W:22  L:8  D:2
Tesseract Labyrinth'd:
2xHive Tyrant, 1xWolf Priest, 1xVulkan He'stan, 2xLogan Grimnar, 1xTrygon Prime, 1xDaemon Prince, 1xChaos Lord, 1xChaos Sorcerer
Tournaments:
40kOnline 2012 UK: 5th

Offline Raktra (So long, I guess)

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Re: Whip Coils and Challenges
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2012, 09:43:51 PM »
P.64 under "Fighting a challenge", states that for the duration of the challenge the models fighting it are considered only to be in contact with each other, so I'd rule that the Librarian got his full I value, as the Wraiths didn't exist to him at that point.

EDIT: I'll backtrack a little and say that seeing as both effects occur at the same time, I'm now not so sure.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 09:48:31 PM by Raktra »

Offline Idaho

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Re: Whip Coils and Challenges
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2012, 04:10:53 AM »
I'm afraid we can't have our cake and eat it, as Necron players. If we consider base contact at the start of the fight phase to count, before challenges are issued, then that means you cannot subsequently use other wargear which occurs at the start of the Fight phase when a challenge is issued, because you've defined the start of the Fight phase before challenges are issued.

I'm pretty sure most people would rather suffer a Whip Coil than Mindshackle Scarabs.

In addition, the movement from the challenge is before the Fight phase and all it's done is moved models about so they can subsequently fight. As such the challenger and challengee only count as being in contact with each other still at the start of the Fight phase.

If you want precedent, check all the rulings in various FAQs where other models are forbidden from affecting an enemy challenger, even Wolves for SW characters.

So no, the Librarian shouldn't have been affected by the Whip Coils.

Sorry.

Offline CloverSquirrel

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Re: Whip Coils and Challenges
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2012, 07:11:37 AM »
We didn't worry about Mindshackle scarabs for this bit as the Librarian was not in base contact with the DLord at the start of the Fight Sub-Phase.

Also the thing that was mainly confusing us due to this was that both challenges and the whip coils happen at the start of the Fight Sub-Phase, even the movement of challenges are done in the start of the Fight Sub-Phase so we weren't too sure if he would still be initiative 1 for that Assault Phase.

If you want precedent, check all the rulings in various FAQs where other models are forbidden from affecting an enemy challenger, even Wolves for SW characters.

I haven't been able to find much in the FAQs that really helps us figure this situation out.
Battle record:
W:22  L:8  D:2
Tesseract Labyrinth'd:
2xHive Tyrant, 1xWolf Priest, 1xVulkan He'stan, 2xLogan Grimnar, 1xTrygon Prime, 1xDaemon Prince, 1xChaos Lord, 1xChaos Sorcerer
Tournaments:
40kOnline 2012 UK: 5th

Offline Shas'Oink

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Re: Whip Coils and Challenges
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2012, 07:18:08 AM »
Is this an example of the "things happening by both players at the same time"...

your opponent wanted to issue a challenge at the same time that you wanted to engage the Whip Coil rule.

In this type of situation doesn't the rulebook state that the player whose turn it is gets to decide the order of events?

So, if it was YOUR turn then you could say that the whip coils engage first, then the character completes issuing his challenge (but counting as I1 because he was in BtB) and if it was your OPPONENTS turn then he could say that the challenge is issued first and then whip coils affect any other model left in BtB.

it's probably worth noting that this is effectively the same thing as "rolling for it" but with a more consistent approach - you know how things will interact from turn to turn.


???

Offline CloverSquirrel

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Re: Whip Coils and Challenges
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2012, 08:13:19 AM »
In this type of situation doesn't the rulebook state that the player whose turn it is gets to decide the order of events?

I think we both forgot about that bit in the book! That actually makes more sense for this kind of situation and I will have to point this out when we next have a game.
Battle record:
W:22  L:8  D:2
Tesseract Labyrinth'd:
2xHive Tyrant, 1xWolf Priest, 1xVulkan He'stan, 2xLogan Grimnar, 1xTrygon Prime, 1xDaemon Prince, 1xChaos Lord, 1xChaos Sorcerer
Tournaments:
40kOnline 2012 UK: 5th

Offline Idaho

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Re: Whip Coils and Challenges
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2012, 10:18:07 AM »
Well no one can dispute your sportsmanship, since you were consistent and fair regarding the exact time the "start of phase" counted as. Personally I'd say the start of the Fight phase was everything that occurred before pile in moves. Makes sense really since the next action is pile in.

Essentially, "start of phase" means "after moving but before Pile in moves.

Think of a challenge as continuation of movement, so when you finished making an assault move you challenge then continue to move, before settling in for the scrapping.

Otherwise Mindshackle Scarabs would become inconsistent depending on who's turn it was choosing the order of things.

 


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