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Night Scythe discussion

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Night Scythe discussion
« on: July 12, 2012, 05:36:26 AM »
 

Shas'Oink

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Over on the rules board there was a short discussion on the Night Scythe Rules. You guys will need to make sure that you have read the Necron FAQ (available in the downloads section of the GW website) as it adds a new special rule to the unit with the specific purpose of allowing troops within to be disembarked from the (now) flyer.

This is necessary due to the new flyer rules that apply - which would otherwise make this unit useless as a transport.

My question though, and the purpose for this discussion, is to see just how useful a transport the Night Sctyhe actually is!?



First of all, I think I should cover some rules clarifications, including what was discussed in the thread on the 40K Rules & Questions board:

1. The Invasion Beam rules in the FAQ overcome the BDB rules which would otherwise prevent the Night Scythe from functioning as a flying transport. (remember that it does not have HOVER so can only ZOOM). However, the rules only provide an ability for units to disembark. This means that no unit can (re)embark a Night Scythe.

2. The Night Scythes own rules for passengers tell you how to deal with a unit during a "Crash and Burn" event. I was previously under the impression that they combined so that the unit would take hits and then be put in reserve... but Hymirl is adamant that the codex rules are  asimple case of codex > BDB, and the unit simply gets put in reserve without following the rules in "Crash and Burn".



So. With those things in mind... how useful is this transport now?

I was initially thinking that it was perhaps one of the worst in the game, but having had time to look over all of the rules and their interactions I am not so sure any more. Of particular note for this is the fact that you can't score when in a transport anyway - so there is little reason to hop back inside anyway...

I am in two minds of the fact that the scythes MUST start in reserve, but the reserves rules are quite interesting now both in terms of the way they work and the fact that reserves should all be on the board earlier in general. This is a good way to protect the weaker flyers from enemy fire and their movement and the invasion beamer rule should mean you can still deploy troops in excess of 24" when they arrive...

I also wonder how survivable flyers are in general given that firers count as BS1. As necrons we also have the chance to impose night fighting against enemy shooting which should in theory minimise incoming fire too. Considering we should have mobility over the enemy it should be relatively easy to control what can shoot at you. How this works in practice is another thing though. But, using tricks such as these (and combined with jinking saves etc.) could mean you can probably risk holding troops inside?

If you have a monolith in your army, like I do then you can probably be even more riskier... because if the unit gets pushed into reserve then the monolith can pull them back out! More to the point - the monolith rules allow you to pull a unit through the portal without even needing to roll a reserve roll.

Considering all of these things, I am beginning to be of the opinion that the Night Sctyhes are still a very viable and competitive transport option (in comparison to other armies transports)... ) However, I'd really like to hear broad opinions on this as well as any first hand experience... I am yet to play a game of 6th ed... let alone with the new necron codex.


 

Re: Night Scythe discussion
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2012, 06:14:39 AM »
 

khaine

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The biggest down side to Nightscythes I see is getting them to the point you want them to drop their cargo off. With their limited turning ability and having to travel a minimum distance if you're not Zooming onto the table and dropping the unit inside straight away it can get tricky.

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Is it legal (RAW) to throw sharp objects at my opponent?
 

Re: Night Scythe discussion
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2012, 04:50:30 PM »
 

NecronCell2131

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 Still seems to be a decent choice.
-BS 1 to hit means things that can easily destroy it with have to get really lucky in order to do so.
-Tesla destructors are great at both hitting fliers and regular troops.
-You could keep zooming on the board and with your turbo boost in the shooting phase just fly off the board again to avoid being shot if it comes in early game.

If i was going to use them i would just take a 5 man warrior squad with a stormtek to bomb a vehicle either dreadnaught, vindi or landraider most likely.
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Re: Night Scythe discussion
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2012, 07:45:05 PM »
 

Lorizael

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I have 1 in 1500 and it's been invaluable.
Have it come on 24" in turn 3 to drop off a unit of Tesla-Immortals at the halfway mark- the Immortals move a further 6" if necessary and fire away! The Night scythe's weapons are nasty too- sometimes it pops a transport so the immortals can lay into the guys inside.
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Re: Night Scythe discussion
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2012, 05:12:48 AM »
 

syth773

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the way I see it fliers are very useful and durable, and it's not strictly about the odds of them getting hit, it's also a mind game with your opponent.

If you field several vehicles, say a monolith, a ghost ark with immortals and a nightscythe and your opponet has, say 6 dedicated anti vehicle weapons (lascannons/missile launchers).  And you bring your night scythe in, he has to decide if it's even worth trying to shoot at it rather than your other vehicles.  He'll on average only hit the night scythe with only 1 of his 6 heavy weapons, and even then it's not guarenteed he'll be able to stop it (especially if youre using evasive manuvers for the jink save).  You've also got 2 other transports on the board (ghost ark and monolith portal) that he could shoot instead with a much better chance of actually hitting them.

So if you provide your opponent with a number of targets, and use proper positioning, I find it unlikely that he'll dedicate a lot of firepower to trying to take down a flier, and if he does then he's not bothering the rest of your vehicles.

And as mentioned above if you just use the nightscythe to drop off an inexpensive unit to take down a specific target, you can just use the flier as a very mobile tesla destructor, which is a great weapon and it's unlikely your opponent will dedicate a lot of fire to take down a transport that has already dumped its cargo, even if its weapon is still a threat.
 

Re: Night Scythe discussion
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2012, 08:52:49 AM »
 

Shas'Oink

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Currently trying to figure out how to squish more into my list...

Well, I'm at least not going to have that issue... I have 3 in a 1750 list which also includes 2 doom scythes... and a monolith! hmm... (i did say I wanted an air force! lol!)

Syth does bring up another issue though, being one of "proper positioning"... based on the fact that flyers are far more limited in their movement than other vehicles. The 90deg turn rate will mean that fixed weapons, such as those on teh scythe (though not including the laser on the doom) will have limited functionality for prolonged use.

How have people been negotiating their flyers around the board in light of this?


 

Re: Night Scythe discussion
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2012, 05:38:54 PM »
 

Kaiju Senso

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I've used the Doom Scythe in two games now. In the first game, the enemy was set up perfectly for me, laid out across the long table edge. The Doom Scythe would fly in stupid far along the short edge and have plenty of range to unleash it's Death Ray and TL Tesla Destructor. Then on the next turn it could turn about 90 and zoom forward to get the next target in line.

At most though I don't see there being many targets that will be in line of sight for more then 2 turns. Go ahead and fly off the board only to reappear next turn and do it all over again. While it is great fun, paying so many points for a weapon that will only be fired 2-3 times max seems iffy at the moment. I'll need more play testing to decide if it's right for me to pursue more.
 

Re: Night Scythe discussion
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2012, 05:38:40 AM »
 

Hawaiian Zombie

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Greetings fellow overlords!

The looming presence of 6th edition encouraged me to start a Necron army a few months ago and I've been lurking on these boards since. Now that I've had a solid week of gaming to get my head around the rules and army I figured I'd actually contribute.

I've been running with 2 night scythes in my 1750 point list; 1 with a 10 man immortals unit joined by a royal court lord with resurrection orb and warscythe and the other with a 10 man deathmark unit. And I am loving them!

Movement

Out night scythe movement is a trade off we have access to almost the entire board with which to deploy but we lack the ability to redeploy quick thus we need to have a multi turn plan in place for the unit deploying. The accuracy of our deployment is also not to be underestimated; unlike lesser races there is no scatter and no dangerous terrain tests, combined with premeasuring you can get exactly where you need to go.

 I've found it's a trade off that the Necrons pull off very well, we have powerful short ranged units (pretty much anything in rapid fire range) that are also some of the most survivable models in the game. The 6th ed rules also mitigate the lack of redeployment quite well being able to move and fire rapid fire weapons at full range is a big boost for us and there is still always the option of running.

The restrictions on flyer movement definitely takes some getting used to it's important to utilise the fact that you can come on from your board edge at any angle to position yourself well. There is also always the option to zoom off the board and come back on next turn an especially good option if you've been forced to evade.

Firepower

Our night scythes are lightly armed compared to many other flyers but a twin linked Tesla Destructor is a serious danger to light vehicles and especially other flyers, with no other AA options in our book you'll be dogfighting with them a lot! The destructor also has the big advantage of still being good if you evade or are otherwise forced into snap firing, twin linked and the Tesla rule can still net you quite a few hits.

Survivability

Our fliers AV puts us just above the level of wet paper plane but not having a weaker rear value is a godsend and I think many of the more heavily armoured will struggle with this considering the flyer movement rules.

Survivability in the future is going to be hard to predict as we currently have no idea how prevalent AA weapons will be in 6th ed codexes.

Well that's all my thoughts for now! Cya on the boards
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Re: Night Scythe discussion
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2012, 06:22:40 PM »
 

Rampart

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I'm hoping there's a typo in the "Invasion Beams" rule or they forgot to give it hover. Sometimes you do need to pick a unit back up and send it elsewhere. It might not be so bad if the Ghost Ark did not specifically say it can only carry Necron Warriors and Characters.
 

Re: Night Scythe discussion
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2012, 03:47:13 AM »
 

Hawaiian Zombie

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I'm hoping there's a typo in the "Invasion Beams" rule or they forgot to give it hover. Sometimes you do need to pick a unit back up and send it elsewhere. It might not be so bad if the Ghost Ark did not specifically say it can only carry Necron Warriors and Characters.

There's definitely not a typo as supersonic fliers can't hover anyway (BRB pg. 43)
I'm going to tell you what I tell every Dark Angels player. Keep your awesome models and your great background, accept that GW secretly hates you and just play with the rules from the new dex
 

Re: Night Scythe discussion
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2012, 04:29:44 AM »
 

Shas'Oink

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I'm hoping there's a typo in the "Invasion Beams" rule or they forgot to give it hover. Sometimes you do need to pick a unit back up and send it elsewhere. It might not be so bad if the Ghost Ark did not specifically say it can only carry Necron Warriors and Characters.

You don't do much invading by picking up units to run away!

At first I was thinking the same thing... based on how I tend to use my transports generally in my armies... but I don't think that is really a concern here. Aside from the fact that you can pretty much lay down your unit where you want them, movement in the current edition should mean you're not too hard pushed to walk around... and that you get your shooting whilst doing this anyway!

Ultimately though, you can use things like a veil character to shift units about or a monoliths portal to quickly relocate them too. You also have to consider that a unit cannot score from inside a transport... so you can't even use the trick for last turn contesting either...

When you break it down you start to realise that you generally don't NEED to have the ability to pick up your troops again.


 

Re: Night Scythe discussion
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2012, 12:39:48 PM »
 

NecronCell2131

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 Moving 36" and then dropping off the contesting unit or take an objective last turn will be awesome.
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Re: Night Scythe discussion
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2012, 02:29:35 PM »
 

Lazarus

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I think they are amazing. Being able to drop with no scatter and still shoot at full BS when moving 24" is stupid good. Being able to snap fire after moving 36" is also good.
"If someone used the ridiculous cover saves rule on me I'd probably punch him in the face. If he's still standing he would be entitled to punch me in the face, take my army, and my woman if he can. This is known as the Conan rule of play, and is not forbidden in the core rules and encourages serious amounts of sportsmanship." - Carniflex
 

 


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