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Author Topic: LRBT with plasma sponsons nerfed?  (Read 6485 times)

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Offline Bobby P

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LRBT with plasma sponsons nerfed?
« on: July 9, 2012, 08:40:55 AM »
The rules state that a vehicle that fires an ordnance weapon can only make snap shots. You cannot make snap shots with blast weapons.

So, if you have an LRBT or demolisher with plasma sponsons they cannot fire they're sponsons if the fire their main turret?

Offline Shas'La robo

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Re: LRBT with plasma sponsons nerfed?
« Reply #1 on: July 9, 2012, 09:17:28 AM »
That is correct. And even if you do fire the plasma sponsons, you now have a chance of glancing yourself to death in a few turns. :(

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Offline Shas'Oink

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Re: LRBT with plasma sponsons nerfed?
« Reply #2 on: July 9, 2012, 09:23:14 AM »
Not entirely... there is a discussion going on in the rules board I believe about how the LR lumbering behemoth rule interacts with 6th ed.

The short version would be that LB allows you to fire the turret IN ADDITION to your normal allowance / rules etc.

So, I would read that as you ignore the turret for the purposes of deciding how many weapons you can fire and also at what BS.


bear in mind that plasma cannons can now overheat. you should double check the rules for gets hot for how they affect vehicles... but yes, it is possible for a tank to kill itself (albeit not as easily as you might think).

As a second point to note on this, AFAIK the plasma executioner cannon does not have the gets hot rule.

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: LRBT with plasma sponsons nerfed?
« Reply #3 on: July 9, 2012, 12:53:27 PM »
I am also concerned that you can't fire the BC and PC's in the same phase. My reasoning is that Lumbering Behemoth allows you to fire the Turret in addition to other weapon/s. The current rules allow you to fire an Ordnance weapon whenever you like, but causes all others to be fired as snaps. You can't fire a blast as a snap shot.

The wording in the Rulebook is such that firing ordnance causes other weapons to be fired as snaps, not that firing blasts as "normal" prevents firing Ordnance. Splitting hairs, but a distinction is there. You could say that LB allows you to fire the turret, even though firing a PC would normally prevent it... so LB works... except LB doesn't change the core rules surrounding Ordnance causing all other shots to be snaps, which is what prevents the PC's from firing.

In essence, Lumbering Behemoth allows you to fire an Ordnance weapon in addition to other weapons... but you're always allowed to fire an Ord weapon in 6th, as long as you move slow enough / not at all. It gives you special permission to do something you can do anyways... a result of edition change. To me, LB would need to be reworded along the lines of...

"Firing the turret weapon does not cause other weapons to fire as snap shots, and does not count towards the single weapon that may fire at full BS if you move."

That would make it clear that what I hope is the RAI behind LB becomes the RAW. I really want my LRBT with Plasma back! :)

Offline Koval, Master Verispex

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Re: LRBT with plasma sponsons nerfed?
« Reply #4 on: July 9, 2012, 01:12:49 PM »
Not entirely... there is a discussion going on in the rules board I believe about how the LR lumbering behemoth rule interacts with 6th ed.
Was. We'd mostly reached a consensus before it got locked.

Good thing I've not put my third Russ together yet, as this gives me the option to do a bit of turret-swapping so I have two non-Ordnance Russes with plasma sponsons, and one ordnance Russ with something else.

On the flipside, is it just me, or did Exterminators suddenly become slightly more viable, as stationary anti-infantry/anti-light-armour deathmachines?
« Last Edit: July 9, 2012, 03:18:54 PM by Koval, Lord Governor Militant »

Offline Nemo vas Varya

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Re: LRBT with plasma sponsons nerfed?
« Reply #5 on: July 9, 2012, 03:12:19 PM »
I am thinking of either ripping the sponsons off of my current models, and touching the paint up, or buy three new tanks. Sponsons when you did sit and shoot tanks were useful, but I'd rarely got to use both, and with all the new viable juicy options, such as Allied detachments, dual detachments giving me extra FA/HS slots, etc... I need the points more then the sponsons. Hell most of the time the sponson weapons were out of range.
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Offline Shas'Oink

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Re: LRBT with plasma sponsons nerfed?
« Reply #6 on: July 9, 2012, 03:35:31 PM »
I suppose I'm "lucky" in that I have a whole leman russ company... with a range of different weapon set ups... so I have the luxury of mixing and matching depending on what I want to try.

Offline Bobby P

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Re: LRBT with plasma sponsons nerfed?
« Reply #7 on: July 9, 2012, 08:48:03 PM »
Yea thats how i read it. LB allowed you under 5e to fire ordnance and then fire other weaponry but now under 6e you can do that anyway but they have to be snap shots, so the LRBT with plasma is dead for now

Offline RandomGuardsman

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Re: LRBT with plasma sponsons nerfed?
« Reply #8 on: July 9, 2012, 10:25:13 PM »
  I look at it less as one/two tanks getting nerfed, but more as being forced to explore other options. Lets face it, in 5th not many tanks got any lov'in more than the Demo, Executioner, and LRMBT (with plasma sponsons). Now people are going to start looking at other variants like the Vanquisher, Exterminator, Punisher, Executioner, and Eradicator as none of them have Ordnance weapons.

 The Vanquisher has a chance of killing any one vehicle in a single round if you load it with Multi Melta sponsons and a Lascannon even if all you do is glance from bad armor pen rolls.

 With the Shroud and Stealth special rules being tossed around (and stackable) the Eradicator seems a bit more appealing at rooting out enemy units.

 These are just a few things that catch my eye!!!  ;D
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Offline Nemo vas Varya

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Re: LRBT with plasma sponsons nerfed?
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2012, 02:31:53 AM »
The easy access to cover and the shift to sit and shoot armies who are afraid to move at me is making me re-consider those Nova Cannons, I will admit that. Never faced a space marine army that REFUSED to advance until today. He just kept using his thunderfire cannon and devastators to try and dislodge me. Eventually my Russ got his bloody Tech-Marine and cannon, and he just conceded stating: "I refuse to charge IG now, it is obvious they are the new favorites of GW." While this made me roll my eyes, I looked around at the other tables where their were better sports, and only saw one assault going on... even the Tyranid player was doing a sit and shoot...

I think people are over reacting to the assault rules, the few assaults I have been in with my Guard have not ended well for my guard... just you can't be dumb and run at them straight on anymore. In other words, the rules now punish a player for using the stupid tactic of charging an entrenched, dug in gunline, head on. I guess instead of learning how to assault intelligently, people are intent on recreating WWI 40k Themed.
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Offline The Unseenly Invincible

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Re: LRBT with plasma sponsons nerfed?
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2012, 07:16:44 AM »
Okay, point 1:
Yes, unfortunetely for my beloved Plasma Russes, their days of glory are now over. I don't really mind the fact that they have glance against them - glacing doesn't prevent you from shooting anymore. The thing that does is rolling a 1. That means 1/6 of my plasma shots are failing me, meaning that more or less, once or twice a game, I don't get to fire my plasma, which is awfully inconvinient. I am one of those belivers of "all guns must shoot" so the IG can be victorious. Plasma sponsors aren't just reliable now.

Point 2:
Why are people so afriad of overwatch? I mean, if your playing against IG get them into combat as soon as possible - your odds are almost nilch of winning if you want to win a gun battle against IG (maybe tau players can do this). I agree with CommissarNemoVaryas point on not being stupid with assaults now. Overwatch is simply there so that you can't have 1 assault marine screw over a squad of 30 guardsman. Happened to poor guy I was watching. He has no PW in the squad, and the IG duders are spread out. The assault marine kills 2 guys, the IG fail to wound the guy back with 12 attacks or something. They run (no Commissar), and wadda ya know. The assault marine runs them all down (physically impossible). Overwatch just balance this out.
And why not assault vehicles now? Its much better to get a few dudes with kraks into a tank, and even if your grot WS, you still hit one 3's. 3 Glances later, and that vehicle is a gonner.

people are intent on recreating WWI 40k Themed.

Communists (tau) lose. :P
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Offline Travellar

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Re: LRBT with plasma sponsons nerfed?
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2012, 11:49:12 AM »
Probrably the best sponson for a Leman Russ at this point is heavy bolters.  They're relatively cheap, and stand a decent chance of taking the hits instead of the Battlecannon/Eradicator/Fuzzykittenlauncher/whatever.  Random weapon destruction can keep those Russes in the fight!

As for Plasma Sponsons: while (imho) LB does nothing to keep the battlecannon from preventing their firing, it does allow them to be fired alongside the Executioner. (A plasma weapon which I note does NOT get hot)

Also, I'm pretty sure the Commies took over from the Tzar and ducked out of WWI
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Re: LRBT with plasma sponsons nerfed?
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2012, 08:36:28 AM »
Yup, heavy bolters are the boss for Leman Russes. Also remember that with a few lucky shots, you can glance a rhino or raider or something, and it only takes 3 glances to kill a vehicle now (whoope for... heavy bolters and multilasers?). I'm just that sort of person who can't stop rolling 6's. ;D

I'm still not too keen on taking the executioner. I do suppose it has the extra benefit of being able to kill transports these days (I do hope we see less and less of them, as 6th ed encourages balanced armies. We'll see, however), and are one of those weapons that jeer in terminator's faces. Peh. 2+ save my foot.
They unfortunetely don't get 5x plasma template death anymore, which is a bit of a shame (alas poor plasma cannon). Travellar's point of heavy bolters I think is valid. My belief is that more armylists will edge towards taking heavy bolters and lascannons on the Leman Russes. Perhaps it encourages us to take Manticores?

Also, I'm pretty sure the Commies took over from the Tzar and ducked out of WWI


Resate sentance: Communists (tau) don't win ('cos there not in it in the first place). Tau did appareantly win in todays game against necrons. :o
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Re: LRBT with plasma sponsons nerfed?
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2012, 02:21:19 PM »
Quote
I think people are over reacting to the assault rules, the few assaults I have been in with my Guard have not ended well for my guard... just you can't be dumb and run at them straight on anymore. In other words, the rules now punish a player for using the stupid tactic of charging an entrenched, dug in gunline, head on. I guess instead of learning how to assault intelligently, people are intent on recreating WWI 40k Themed.

Oh, trust me, you can. People are going nuts over overwatch (which isn't as scary as it sounds) and missing the counterpart, Hammer of Wrath - giving assualt marines and monsters impact hits. I just had a game where more than once the tank blew up just from being shoulder-charged by a tervigon, before it even got to swing. And Leman Russ fall apart to glancing hits now thanks to hull points - if you can get them. Fear haywire weapons with a passion!

I concur with heavy bolter sponsons - or possibly multimelta sponsons. They're more expensive, but can also snap-fire to fairly devastating effect against the right target.
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Offline Shas'Oink

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Re: LRBT with plasma sponsons nerfed?
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2012, 10:10:06 AM »
Just to clarify to others (only because you mention charging, overwatch and snap firing sponsons in the same post)... remember that vehicles are not able to overwatch.

(not saying you are making that assumption, but I thought it would be prudent to offer clarity to avoid somone misinterpreting that)

Offline Bobby P

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Re: LRBT with plasma sponsons nerfed?
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2012, 03:15:22 AM »
Thats correct, vehicles cannot overwatch....but vets in a chimera with triple flamers and a primaris psyker can!

4 raptors assaulted my vets plus primaris in a chimera in a tournament yesterday and.....BAM, 4 dead raptors

Thanks Overwatch.

( Shameless gloating finished )

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Re: LRBT with plasma sponsons nerfed?
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2012, 10:28:37 AM »
Thats correct, vehicles cannot overwatch....but vets in a chimera with triple flamers and a primaris psyker can!

4 raptors assaulted my vets plus primaris in a chimera in a tournament yesterday and.....BAM, 4 dead raptors

That doesn't work. Only the unit being assaulted gets to overwatch, and your vets aren't being assaulted, their chimera is. Since the two are seperate units, you can't claim the passengers getting to overwatch.

Your tournament played it wrong I'm afraid.
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Offline wper34

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Re: LRBT with plasma sponsons nerfed?
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2012, 10:47:42 AM »
Thats correct, vehicles cannot overwatch....but vets in a chimera with triple flamers and a primaris psyker can!

4 raptors assaulted my vets plus primaris in a chimera in a tournament yesterday and.....BAM, 4 dead raptors

That doesn't work. Only the unit being assaulted gets to overwatch, and your vets aren't being assaulted, their chimera is. Since the two are seperate units, you can't claim the passengers getting to overwatch.

Your tournament played it wrong I'm afraid.

Hymirl... I think you'd better start eating reading the rulebook. :P

Page 80 under the top section "Transports and Assault" indicates that a unit inside a vehicle can shoot at attackers. So Bobby P was playing it correct.

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Offline RandomGuardsman

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Re: LRBT with plasma sponsons nerfed?
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2012, 11:51:35 AM »
Thats correct, vehicles cannot overwatch....but vets in a chimera with triple flamers and a primaris psyker can!

4 raptors assaulted my vets plus primaris in a chimera in a tournament yesterday and.....BAM, 4 dead raptors

That doesn't work. Only the unit being assaulted gets to overwatch, and your vets aren't being assaulted, their chimera is. Since the two are seperate units, you can't claim the passengers getting to overwatch.

Your tournament played it wrong I'm afraid.

Hymirl... I think you'd better start eating reading the rulebook. :P

Page 80 under the top section "Transports and Assault" indicates that a unit inside a vehicle can shoot at attackers. So Bobby P was playing it correct.

 Yup, page 80, first sentence under the "Transports and Assault" so you do not have to read very far.  ;) Page references FTW.  :P

.....BAM, 4 dead raptors

Thanks Overwatch.

  I am glad you had luck with it, I had 3 Warwalkers charge a Chimera that had 6 Stormtroopers armed with a PlasmaPistol and 2 PlasmaGuns.  He declared a charge against the chimera and needed a 7 to reach me, so I fired overwatch. PlasmaPistol hit with an armor pen roll of 2, PlasmaGuns both missed and both suffered and unsaved GetsHot! result killing their users. A random Stormtrooper Krak Grenade hits, causes a pen, and kills a Warwalker. The Warwalker then rolls a 3 on his assault range  and the assault does not happen.

 We each lost the same amount of points roughly!
 
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 11:56:01 AM by RandomGuardsman »
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Offline Bobby P

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Re: LRBT with plasma sponsons nerfed?
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2012, 11:27:16 PM »
@ RandomGuardsman
Ouch man, thats sucks. So far in 6e ive only had positive results from overwatch. The tournament i played in was a small 1000 point doubles tourney ( 500 per player ) and the raptor situation happened in our 3rd and final game. In our first game vs a Tau and Chaos Demons team a 10 strong unit of blood-letters came down, i failed my frfsrf ( it had LD9 and voxes for re-rolls!!!! ), so my space wolf partner moved a 10 man grey hunter unit to block them and rapid fire them. We both rolled miserably and only managed to kill 2 letters. In their turn they assault and eat the hunter unit and consolidate towards my flamer vets in the chimera. Our next turn We shoot them a little but largely ignore them, much to the confusion of our opponents. Their next turn the remaining letters ( 2 ) assault the chimera....7 hits from flamers and 2 hits from shotguns = 2 dead letters. Yay overwatch!

 


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