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Author Topic: New Flamers of Tzentch rules  (Read 3652 times)

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Offline WilliamT

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New Flamers of Tzentch rules
« on: July 29, 2012, 10:56:35 PM »
Did you folks check out the new demon flamer rules in the new WD update?  Rules description removed.

[mod]Please don't write out the rules for a unit like that, it's against the forum rules on copyright - Iris.[/mod]
« Last Edit: August 4, 2012, 10:13:57 AM by Irisado »

Offline Tamuz

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Re: New Flamers of Tzentch rules
« Reply #1 on: August 3, 2012, 02:28:27 AM »
Flamers of Tzeentch already had that effect.

Offline Draggo Blacksun

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Re: New Flamers of Tzentch rules
« Reply #2 on: August 3, 2012, 03:51:33 AM »
Which is why I hated them with a passion, since my first encounter with a player using them.
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Offline Locarno

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Re: New Flamers of Tzentch rules
« Reply #3 on: August 5, 2012, 06:14:39 PM »
However, they are now truly scary given the overwatch rules - Wall of Death with Breath of Chaos is truly disgusting.

Shame they no longer have an invulnerable save (why? are they meant to have the Daemon rule from the rulebook? If so, which bits of the rule from the codex do they get?)
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Offline WisdomLS

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Re: New Flamers of Tzentch rules
« Reply #4 on: August 6, 2012, 08:15:20 AM »
Most people play that they gain a 5++ from the rule in the BAB but I think that strict RAW they don't get any save, what a shocker the rules have just been released and they need an FAQ ::)

Offline Benis

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Re: New Flamers of Tzentch rules
« Reply #5 on: August 6, 2012, 08:53:19 AM »
Given that stats are mixed up for other entries I suspect you will have to be a bit gracious with the rules, as always when GW releases rules in WD they are rife with inaccuracy and poor editing.

Offline Changeyname

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Re: New Flamers of Tzentch rules
« Reply #6 on: August 6, 2012, 09:07:43 AM »
Shame they no longer have an invulnerable save (why? are they meant to have the Daemon rule from the rulebook? If so, which bits of the rule from the codex do they get?)
They do have an invulnerable save - they have the Daemon special rule which when reading the Special rules in the Rulebook grants a save... simples

Most people play that they gain a 5++ from the rule in the BAB but I think that strict RAW they don't get any save, what a shocker the rules have just been released and they need an FAQ ::)
How'd you figure when the very blatant RAW from the Daemon special rule in the Rulebook grants one?
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Offline Benis

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Re: New Flamers of Tzentch rules
« Reply #7 on: August 6, 2012, 09:13:34 AM »
Given that there already are a Codex: Chaos Daemons special rule called Daemon which is sort of central to all Chaos Daemons (Daemonic Assault etc.) I suspect that the Daemon rule included in their profile is meant for that one, not the one in the rulebook. Given that nothing in the FAQ gives Chaos Daemons' rule Daemon the same meaning or inclusion of the rule Daemon found in the rulebook it appears they are without save.

Offline Changeyname

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Re: New Flamers of Tzentch rules
« Reply #8 on: August 6, 2012, 09:42:08 AM »
Hmm yeah I suppose you're right - seems really poor work on GW's part though
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Offline Benis

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Re: New Flamers of Tzentch rules
« Reply #9 on: August 6, 2012, 09:50:04 AM »
Yeah, if the FAQ just included that Chaos Daemons with the Daemon special rule also has the "main" Daemon special rule it would have been settled but all that is included is the Fear special rule from the main rulebook... Poor work indeed.

Offline WisdomLS

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Re: New Flamers of Tzentch rules
« Reply #10 on: August 6, 2012, 12:23:56 PM »
Yes if it hadn't been that the FAQ only included the addition of fear then we would all assume that they followed both sets of daemon rules, that fact that they specify all daemons in codex daemons gain fear implies that they do not follow the daemon rule from the BAB and instead follow the rule as represented in the codex.
As the codex states that you get an invulnerable save equal to that on your stat line then the new models are a little stuffed :(

Who knows what save was intended for these models, Tzeentch models traditionally have a 4++ so it seems a little strange fluff wise to drop them down to a 5++ but I think thats the best they can hope for till GW clear it up for us.

You'd think that they would have someone with a good working knowledge of the game give stuff a quick read through before sending this kind of thing to the printers, they even got the Init value of the Alluress wrong in one stat block out of 6, its not rocket science >:(

Offline Galef

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Re: New Flamers of Tzentch rules
« Reply #11 on: August 6, 2012, 05:12:01 PM »
Having a 5++ for Flamers and Screamers makes them more in line with their Fantasy rules.  In Fantasy, neither of them ever had a 4+ ward like Heralds of Tzeentch.  Likewise, Horrors only get a 4+ if a Herald is with them.

I see no issue with assuming that all Daemons in the Daemon codex have the BRB Daemon rule in addition to all their Daemon rules.

Except for the Soulgrinder, I will wait for an FAQ to give him a 5++ since his "Daemon" rule has specifics laid out in the codex.

A little more on topic, I used 2 units of 4 Flamers with the new rule against a Tau/CSM allied army and they rocked!
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Offline Benis

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Re: New Flamers of Tzentch rules
« Reply #12 on: August 6, 2012, 06:28:53 PM »
I see no issue with assuming that all Daemons in the Daemon codex have the BRB Daemon rule in addition to all their Daemon rules.

While I do agree that it is very likely that GW intended for the new units to have the Daemon universal rule I do see a lot of issues with simply assuming that. For example, do Seeker Chariots get the save as well?

Offline Galef

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Re: New Flamers of Tzentch rules
« Reply #13 on: August 6, 2012, 09:29:33 PM »
do Seeker Chariots get the save as well?

I don't see why they wouldn't.  They have other USR's.  The WD that updated all the rules for Daemons is technically the 1st set of "codex" rules to come out for 6th ed.  I cut all the pages out to glue into my 40K Codex & Fantasy Army Book, and I noticed a few differences in the way they rules were laid out (like the points being per unit, instead of per model).

Even the Eldar Avatar has the Daemon rule (that was FAQed to keep his 4++).

Though GW seems to have taken the long way in doing so, I still think they mean for all Daemons to have the BRB Daemon rule, in addition to any other Codex rules that go with them (like Eternal Warrior & Daemonic Assault).
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Offline WisdomLS

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Re: New Flamers of Tzentch rules
« Reply #14 on: August 7, 2012, 07:43:58 AM »
Whilst I agree that I think they were intended to use the Daemon USR its still really poor on there part.

It still seems a little strange to have Tzeentch units only having a 5++, comparing it to fantasy is not particularly helpful as all the other stats of models are completely different (well a good proportion are) so having one correlate for that reason seems a little silly, far better to be consistent within the game system that the unit is use in.

My main issue is that the two daemon rules actively disagree with each other (one gives no save and the other a 5++) we can all assume and reach agreement with our friends on how they play but when going to tournaments and pickup games its just another unneeded bone of contention that will take up valuable gaming time.

Offline Benis

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Re: New Flamers of Tzentch rules
« Reply #15 on: August 7, 2012, 09:33:25 AM »
I don't see why they wouldn't.  They have other USR's.

But by that reasoning they would lack the Codex version of the rule which would be even stranger. As WisdomLS says it isn't that clear cut and it is likely that it would lead to contention when playing against strangers.

Offline Koval, Master Verispex

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Re: New Flamers of Tzentch rules
« Reply #16 on: August 7, 2012, 05:13:01 PM »
My local blackshirt called the situation "a bit odd" and recommended that until it's FAQ'd, players should talk it over with their opponents to hammer out something sensible. Worth noting that nobody in the store had a concrete yes/no answer either.

Offline Locarno

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Re: New Flamers of Tzentch rules
« Reply #17 on: August 9, 2012, 06:18:36 PM »
Quote
For example, do Seeker Chariots get the save as well?
For what it's worth, the battle report makes reference to the chariot 'passing it's invulnerable save' against fire from the razorwing, so clearly the design studio thinks it does. Is it, however, immune to shaken and stunned?

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Offline Koval, Master Verispex

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Re: New Flamers of Tzentch rules
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2012, 02:46:20 AM »
Quote
For example, do Seeker Chariots get the save as well?
For what it's worth, the battle report makes reference to the chariot 'passing it's invulnerable save' against fire from the razorwing, so clearly the design studio thinks it does. Is it, however, immune to shaken and stunned?
It's not worth very much. Battle reports are notoriously unreliable sources of information, and are intended to show off how awesome the new/updated units are. Hell, the design team play several games and pick from the ones that show the new stuff winning, and I recall a White Dwarf from several years ago (most likely pre-Cities Of Death, as that's roughly when I stopped subscribing) where they practically told us how they put a battle report together.

 


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