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Author Topic: [Wishlisting and speculation thread for Codex: Chaos Space Marines]  (Read 5499 times)

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Offline Zilverscale

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Re: [Wishlisting and speculation thread for Codex: Chaos Space Marines]
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2012, 09:16:00 PM »
Zilverscale essentially summed up the previous codex!

If Word Bearers gained the ability to take 8 Troops of CSM then I would certainly play that and exploit every single objective style game!  Who wouldn't want this, CSM units as is are fantastic, take 8 of them and you would be hard to lose a game.

Hmm maybe put a limit on it then max 4 csm units and rest daemons ;)
(no access to cult troops)

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Offline Lachdonin

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Re: [Wishlisting and speculation thread for Codex: Chaos Space Marines]
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2012, 09:32:09 PM »
Actually this is being brought back.
Especially seeing as more and more tournies allow FW lists/models/characters.
Some of which change FOC's or have different FOC's (IA11 Farseer, Tyrants Legion army list)

FW rules should never, IMO, be used as a basis for wishlisting standard game rules any more than Legendary Items should be used in regular Fantasy games.
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Offline Zilverscale

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Re: [Wishlisting and speculation thread for Codex: Chaos Space Marines]
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2012, 10:39:13 PM »
Actually this is being brought back.
Especially seeing as more and more tournies allow FW lists/models/characters.
Some of which change FOC's or have different FOC's (IA11 Farseer, Tyrants Legion army list)

FW rules should never, IMO, be used as a basis for wishlisting standard game rules any more than Legendary Items should be used in regular Fantasy games.

Hmm and why not seeing as FW now put 40k approved stamps on their sheets meaning they can be used in normal games without opponents consent.
But that is another discussion (which I believe has been held in full extend in the rules forum a while back)

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Offline Benis

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Re: [Wishlisting and speculation thread for Codex: Chaos Space Marines]
« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2012, 04:06:03 AM »
Zilverscale essentially summed up the previous codex!

Indeed, which is the problem. The previous codex was severely flawed and the idea of catering to the legions that do not exist in such a shape or form on but the rarest occasions is just silly, the kind of list Zilverscale made is exactly the kind of thing I would loathe to see in the new codex. I hope they expand on the warband route and makes it possible to make characterful groups of Marines, not the fake legion lists which people claim are fluffy while they realy are not.

Offline Arquarian

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Re: [Wishlisting and speculation thread for Codex: Chaos Space Marines]
« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2012, 06:25:55 AM »
I'm with Zilverscale. I want Legion orientated options.

Renegades are simply SMurfs with a very unimaginative red cross over their livery. lame, lame, lame.

But Legions have to be done carefully to avoid the Oblit spam we were used to in the previous codex. If fact any kind of Spam (LashPrince spam  ::) )

The HQ unlock options are do-able. This list would also let you feild an unaligned warband if you so chose.

As Zilverscale has already pointed out messing with the FOC has not gone away the Mymeara Farseer in IA11 does just this (but I'm not getting into the IA vs codex list argument, although to me its not an argument)

I think the army should be able to be tailored to how you want it. obviously oconstraints will have to be in place but I like the wide scope of the last codex. The present one size fits all list just doesn't sit right with me considering the notion that Choas is the application of all eventualities. 

Offline Benis

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Re: [Wishlisting and speculation thread for Codex: Chaos Space Marines]
« Reply #45 on: May 16, 2012, 07:32:50 AM »
Renegades are simply SMurfs with a very unimaginative red cross over their livery. lame, lame, lame.

No, renegades is what Chaos Space Marines are. Legions are lame, lame, lame since that is clearly not how Chaos works in the background and has never been the case for how Chaos works. Also, the legion route is very much more "simply SMurfs" than what Chaos used to be, it is basically just evil chapters with a gimmick of their own just like their loyalist counter part, lacking much of what Chaos used to be and, in my opinion, should be about. Legion/Chapter oriented Space Marines was a bad move to make, GW has realised that too so any such return would be most unwanted.

Offline Lachdonin

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Re: [Wishlisting and speculation thread for Codex: Chaos Space Marines]
« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2012, 06:26:44 PM »
Renegades are simply SMurfs with a very unimaginative red cross over their livery. lame, lame, lame.

No, renegades is what Chaos Space Marines are. Legions are lame, lame, lame since that is clearly not how Chaos works in the background and has never been the case for how Chaos works. Also, the legion route is very much more "simply SMurfs" than what Chaos used to be, it is basically just evil chapters with a gimmick of their own just like their loyalist counter part, lacking much of what Chaos used to be and, in my opinion, should be about. Legion/Chapter oriented Space Marines was a bad move to make, GW has realised that too so any such return would be most unwanted.

Background wise, Benis is spot on as usual. Even amongst those who were formerly from the Legions, most Chaos Space Marines function in warbands organized around the whims of its Lord, not based on some codified tactical norm associated with largely extinct Legions.

Chaos Space Marines need more options, yes, but not strict legion-lines. That limits them, when their very nature is to be random, capricious and completely unpredictable.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 10:36:19 PM by Lachdonin »
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Offline Lullysing, Appreciator of the glory of chaos.

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Re: [Wishlisting and speculation thread for Codex: Chaos Space Marines]
« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2012, 09:13:45 PM »
Personally if we getsomemarine stile options like :
 chaos lord + mark == that mark's troops count as troops
or chaos lord + bike/jetpack == bikers/jetpackers as troops
.. i would be happy.
 if i have to take a special named character to do that i wouldn't be happy tho.
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Offline Arquarian

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Re: [Wishlisting and speculation thread for Codex: Chaos Space Marines]
« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2012, 05:13:38 AM »
No, renegades is what Chaos Space Marines are. Legions are lame, lame, lame since that is clearly not how Chaos works in the background and has never been the case for how Chaos works. Also, the legion route is very much more "simply SMurfs" than what Chaos used to be, it is basically just evil chapters with a gimmick of their own just like their loyalist counter part, lacking much of what Chaos used to be and, in my opinion, should be about. Legion/Chapter oriented Space Marines was a bad move to make, GW has realised that too so any such return would be most unwanted.

Chaos Space Marines need more options, yes, but not strict legion-lines. That limits them, when their very nature is to be random, capricious and completely unpredictable.


Background wise, Benis is spot on as usual. Even amongst those who were formerly from the Legions, most Chaos Space Marines function in warbands organized around the whims of its Lord, not based on some codified tactical norm associated with largely extinct Legions.

Benis maybe right according to the fluff but thats not how the system works and neither is it relevenat in a wishlisting thread.

You and Benis want to see a progression of the warband idea. Thats cool, I'll even go with that so long as they make it more interesting. Like someone said earlier, they can't make the dex more bland ;)
Personally I, and others, like the Legion specific idea. I don't specifically want some codified 'rules' per se as you're right Lach, this wouldn't feel right. However I would like to see a way how I can tailor my CSM to portray the look and feel of my chosen legion. I'm a Word Bearers fan and so I'd like to see some credible way of creating, at very least, a Dark Apostle. I'd also like to see a nod in the direction of our mastery over the use of Daemons. Now this can be done with the existing codex but its nothing more than fluff and a paint job in reality.

I think when the last codex came out a lot of people were disenfranchised. The power cheese mongers amongst us simply moved from 9 Oblit Iron warriors armies to dual Lash Princes without a 'by your leave' However, us more fluff orientated players were kinda left out. That's how I felt anyway.

I have no objection to a warband-esq style of list and Benis is right the fluff points towards that being a more plausible stlye of army you may encounter but with such a rich tapestry of fluff, especially since the Heresy novels, it would be amiss in my opinion if GW wasn't going to cater for that someway.

Offline Benis

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Re: [Wishlisting and speculation thread for Codex: Chaos Space Marines]
« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2012, 07:20:39 AM »
I have no objection to a warband-esq style of list and Benis is right the fluff points towards that being a more plausible stlye of army you may encounter but with such a rich tapestry of fluff, especially since the Heresy novels, it would be amiss in my opinion if GW wasn't going to cater for that someway.

So unlike all the other codices Chaos Space Marines have to be locked into the 31th millennium instead of actually being, you know, 40k?

To have certain capacities that can be used to represent different legions or different warbands would be fine, so long as the book isn't geared towards it. The static, unimaginary style Chaos had by the beginning of 4th edition was a monstrosity towards what Chaos is and it left the codex with too many masters to serve. Better to leave broad tools for customisation that fits with the warbands and can be used to loosely represent legions but that shouldn't be their prime function.

Offline Arquarian

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Re: [Wishlisting and speculation thread for Codex: Chaos Space Marines]
« Reply #50 on: May 17, 2012, 07:49:48 AM »
So unlike all the other codices Chaos Space Marines have to be locked into the 31th millennium instead of actually being, you know, 40k?
ha ha, no I wasn't suggesting this. That really would be daft.

Quote
To have certain capacities that can be used to represent different legions or different warbands would be fine, so long as the book isn't geared towards it. The static, unimaginary style Chaos had by the beginning of 4th edition was a monstrosity towards what Chaos is and it left the codex with too many masters to serve. Better to leave broad tools for customisation that fits with the warbands and can be used to loosely represent legions but that shouldn't be their prime function.

I totally agree. I don't think the book should be expressivly "this is what Thousands Sons look like" end of argument, shut the book. That would be going too far and would be a disservice to all the unaligned Warbands / chapters / etc...

I think the best aspect of the 4th edition was the ability to customise your army. I could make a pretty good Word Bearers army. You could also make a World Eaters Army and be happy with it. Or you could simply use the Black Legion rules and create your own warband, renegades, heretics whatever.

I personally don't think the 4th ed codex was static. I think the way it was used was used by some people was very static but you can't help that  ??? But there was also a lot of vairation.

The Warband fits well with me personally as a Word Bearer as after the heresy most of the legion fell apart and warbands arose as a Dark Apostle grew in power and attained a following. However as I said before there is no distinguishing my army from anyone elses save a paint job. I'd like to see some rules options such as those I mentioned before (not the pithy daemonic animosity comment, that was a joke  ;) ) a Dark Apostle HQ choice would be good for the book as a wholoe not just as a Word Bearer. I don't want to get into Legion specifics but I don't think its impossible to cater for the two camps of thought. 






 

Offline Benis

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Re: [Wishlisting and speculation thread for Codex: Chaos Space Marines]
« Reply #51 on: May 17, 2012, 08:17:36 AM »
I personally don't think the 4th ed codex was static. I think the way it was used was used by some people was very static but you can't help that  ??? But there was also a lot of vairation.

You are talking about the second Codex: Chaos Space Marines of the 3rd edition, right? Just so we both are on the same track. It was very static since there was little reason to play anything other than the specific legions, each one had significant advantages and the whole mess was geared towards making people field legions instead of using the basic list. Given the advantages build into each legion list you could be pretty certain of what to expect by simply knowing which legion in question you faced, each legion list was basically a mono-build of boredom that people fielded and claimed to be fluffy while doing so.

Offline Arquarian

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Re: [Wishlisting and speculation thread for Codex: Chaos Space Marines]
« Reply #52 on: May 17, 2012, 12:41:55 PM »
Well that sounds like a horrible, horrible state of affairs!!

No I'm talking about the third codex. The previous one to the current. Its hayday was in 4th edition. Or 4.5th ed if you count the abomination of the first assault rules revision. (although for a brief time my Eldar Banshees were awesomly awesome!)

I felt with the release of the current dex GW dumbed down the entire CSM list. The whole shift on to renegades and the emphasis on Huron Blackheart, (who lets face it is a fart in the wind compared to Kharn, Abaddon Arihman etc... ) really did the list a diservice. I think its a direction I resented GW taking. The way I saw if GW nerfed my army overnight and I've played with it once since.

Ok... I realised we've hijacked this thread and taken it off the tracks widly so fearing the wrath of the Gods mods I'm going to attempt to get it back on track.

What I want to see;

I want to see options to enable the selection of Legion specific traits.
These should be both a boon and a restriction to those who choose them.


For example;
Alpha Legion: Whole army gets infiltrate but no access to armour, Mark; No mark, cannot summon deamons.
Black Legion: Standard Codex army (Ultramarine but WAY meaner  ;) ) Any Mark
 Deathguard: T5 standard, may take 0-2 Havocs as troops(not the compulsory choices) . Mark; Nurgle only
Emperors Children: I5 standard, Noise marines as troops, Mark; Slaanesh only
 Iron Warriors: Access to seige equipment / specialist dreads but no access to bikes, raptors or army can't sweep in n cc. Mark; HQ undivided only, all other any mark.
Night Lords: 0-2 raptors + 0-2 bikes as troops (non compilsory) cannot take heavy armour Mark; HQ undivided only, all other any mark.
 Thousand Sons: 5++ save for all infantry, some cool psychic stuff, Mark Tzeentch only.
 Word Bearers: May select minor daemons from codex daemons as (not scoring) troops, Mark; undivided only.
 World Eaters: Can take Beserkers as troops. Cannot take any other mark than the mark of Khorne.


Other: restore Oblits to how they were but restict to 0-1 per army and possibly a points hike.
Land raider varients.
More daemon engines. Blight drones. some sort of Talos for Slaanesh armies...

Ok this is all just rattled off the top of my head now as I'm bored at work and waiting to go into a meeting.

Offline Wyddr

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Re: [Wishlisting and speculation thread for Codex: Chaos Space Marines]
« Reply #53 on: May 17, 2012, 01:19:44 PM »
One thing I'd like (and always wanted) is a Cultist option in the codex. What fun is it, honestly, to be the dominators of worlds and the kings of warp space and what-not and not to have any kind of chaff to kick around?

Put it in any slot you like, restrict it however you like, but I'd just like to be able to field a couple large units of cheap, disposable, low-Ld chaff with various cut-rate weapons and no transport option. This would open up some interesting strategic options to a list that, frankly, operates almost exactly the same as Loyalist lists, and it would be fun to play around with. It would also create some interesting wargear opportunities, perhaps give Fabius Bile something to do (experimenting on already genetically superior superhumans always seems a bit redundant to me), and open up opportunities to run Alpha Legion lists with lots of locals subverted to their cause backing them up.

Offline Lullysing, Appreciator of the glory of chaos.

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Re: [Wishlisting and speculation thread for Codex: Chaos Space Marines]
« Reply #54 on: May 26, 2012, 12:14:04 AM »
One thing I'd like (and always wanted) is a Cultist option in the codex. What fun is it, honestly, to be the dominators of worlds and the kings of warp space and what-not and not to have any kind of chaff to kick around?

Put it in any slot you like, restrict it however you like, but I'd just like to be able to field a couple large units of cheap, disposable, low-Ld chaff with various cut-rate weapons and no transport option.

The rumor mill says your wishes are about to become true, but honestly getting crap disposable troops is no trade for having cult marines as troops ( like we have now).  Meanwhile, i'll try to come up with interesting things to do for the autogun/autocannon crowd.
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Offline shunk_badman

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Re: [Wishlisting and speculation thread for Codex: Chaos Space Marines]
« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2012, 04:56:44 PM »
I just want my Noise Marine army to be able to have 4 Blastmasters in a Havoc squad. This would please Slaanesh.
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Offline angel of death 007

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Re: [Wishlisting and speculation thread for Codex: Chaos Space Marines]
« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2012, 07:20:43 PM »
One thing I'd like (and always wanted) is a Cultist option in the codex. What fun is it, honestly, to be the dominators of worlds and the kings of warp space and what-not and not to have any kind of chaff to kick around?.

Would definately be nice to add some cannon fodder or minions to a list.  (not to mention a cheap way to add some extra bodies)   I think some cultists or some traitors should be available.   It would make chaos stand out a bit from the usual MEQ crowd. 

I just hope Matt Ward doesn't get another go at making yet another cheesinator MEQ codex....  *cringe* *twitch*   I would like to see CSM be somewhat competative but not over the top.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 07:21:53 PM by angel of death 007 »

Offline Sevenzilla

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Re: [Wishlisting and speculation thread for Codex: Chaos Space Marines]
« Reply #57 on: August 1, 2012, 02:32:38 PM »
So, the new Daemons models came out...you guys don't think that means that was the big "chaos thing" and now there won't be a codex, do you?

Offline Wyddr

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Re: [Wishlisting and speculation thread for Codex: Chaos Space Marines]
« Reply #58 on: August 1, 2012, 03:20:32 PM »
I do think that was the 'big chaos release' being rumored recently. That doesn't mean a Chaos Legions Codex isn't coming, it just means it isn't coming as soon as we hoped. I'd be surprised if it wasn't released in or around the same time as the rumored Boxed Set, since that's supposed to involve Chaos and even units we don't have rules for yet.

 


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