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Author Topic: Dealing with Flyers  (Read 10151 times)

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Offline Reepy

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #20 on: July 3, 2012, 12:07:15 PM »
couldn't remember about blast, rule book in the truck...

I normally had a tyrant with preferred enemy in the middle of my swarm, In 5th I used hormagaunts to shatter my opponents. (In 6th not so sure of it).

I just hate to bring dakka fexs to handle fliers, when they weren't point efficient before, now there still not efficient.

grumble grumble

Bringing any single unit to take out any other single unit is a poor choice. The beauty of dakka fexes is that there are very few things now that they can't affect. Since being AP- now has no impact on your performance versus vehicles they are awesome for taking on pretty much anything, and they're not too shabby on overwatch either provided you're not being charged by something that's going to utterly crush you anyway (high assault terminators!)

I second that. Plus if 6th is full of infantry instead of tanks there won't be that many anti-tank weapons that destroyed our carnifexes.

Offline WisdomLS

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #21 on: July 3, 2012, 12:34:24 PM »
This tyranids not being able to use emplaced weapons seems a bit of a silly rule, could leave a big hole in nid air defences.

Now this is more of a question for the rules board but its relevent to this discussion so..

The rulebook seems to makes a distinction between emplaced weapons - those that are part of buildings and weapon emplacements - those that require a model in base to base to fire it.

You buy Quad gun emplacements for buildings and defence lines and the FAQ says nothing about nids not being able to fire those.
I can see people claiming that they are the same thing but they have different rules governing them and the names are quite clear as to what type you buy for each fortification.

So I think nids can still use lascannon and quad gun emplacement for anti air defense, what do you guys think?



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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #22 on: July 3, 2012, 01:22:51 PM »
This tyranids not being able to use emplaced weapons seems a bit of a silly rule, could leave a big hole in nid air defences.

Now this is more of a question for the rules board but its relevent to this discussion so..

The rulebook seems to makes a distinction between emplaced weapons - those that are part of buildings and weapon emplacements - those that require a model in base to base to fire it.

You buy Quad gun emplacements for buildings and defence lines and the FAQ says nothing about nids not being able to fire those.
I can see people claiming that they are the same thing but they have different rules governing them and the names are quite clear as to what type you buy for each fortification.

So I think nids can still use lascannon and quad gun emplacement for anti air defense, what do you guys think?

I think you're wrong, because I can see no evidence for this supposed distinction between weapon emplacements and emplaced weapons. Find me an actual rules basis for those two things being different and you might have an argument.

While I agree that it seems somewhat unfair, it doesn't seem particularly silly to me. Can you honestly see a hormagaunt, or a Hive Tyrant, using a lascannon emplacement? With what? All those opposable thumbs that they don't possess?
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Offline shaten

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #23 on: July 3, 2012, 01:38:19 PM »
Emplaced Weapons pg 96
Gun Emplacement pg 105

There is a difference, so tyranids should get the heavy bolter in the Imperial Bastion as they are Emplaced Weapons 
but the Gun Emplacement you can buy tyranids can't use since we can't manually fire..
« Last Edit: July 3, 2012, 02:13:54 PM by Dipsomaniac »
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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #24 on: July 3, 2012, 02:17:26 PM »
Ah I see, my apologies I was misunderstanding what you were saying. In this course you are of course correct. All the FAQ does is prevent you from manual firing emplacement weapons. Automated weapons fire is unaffected unless otherwise stated. Unfortunately this is an extremely unreliable method of taking down flyers. I'm not convinced that you can't have automated fire on a purchased Gun Emplacement, I see no rules stating that the weapons which don't come with a structure have to be fired manually (unless I've missed something, I've not read the buildings rules as thoroughly as the earlier part of the rulebook). The problem is simply that you can't guarantee they'll even shoot at the right target, let alone hit it or cause it any damage.
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Offline WisdomLS

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #25 on: July 3, 2012, 06:02:55 PM »
This is the way I see it, I may be wrong.

Buildings can have emplaced weapons that are a built in part of them, they can either A: fire automatically, or B: can be fired by a model inside the building as detailed on P96.
This second use (B) is the one that is ruled against in the tyranid FAQ.

Some of the fortifications allow you to buy emplacement weapons, these are different to emplaced weapons, they are free standing weapons that need to be manually fired by a model in base contact, their rules are on P105, these are separate to any building that they come with, can't be fired from within the building or fired automatically and can be individually targeted and destroyed.

Even the one brought with a bastion is an emplacement meaning you need a guy on the roof to fire it, this is backed up by the fact that you can buy emplaced (not emplacement) weapons for the fortress of redemption.

As far as I see they can't manually fire the heavy bolters mounted on a bastion (or the weapons on a fortress of redemption) but they can make use of the quad gun or lascannon that can be brought with the defence line of bastion.

Whether that's fluffy or not is debatable and you could of course make tyranidy versions but I think that's how it works.
« Last Edit: July 3, 2012, 06:04:57 PM by WisdomLS »

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #26 on: July 4, 2012, 05:22:18 AM »
I don't agree that there is a difference between emplaced or emplacement. For one thing, the Fortress of Redemption is the only Fortification in the book to use the term emplaced and not emplacement when referring to optional weapons upgrades. The two are the same thing. All Tyranids have access to all the weapons upgrades available to all fortifications, but all such weapons emplacements/emplaced weapons can only be fired on automatic mode
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Offline Vizier

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #27 on: July 4, 2012, 11:43:13 AM »
Its a RAW vs RAI argument.

I believe that RAI is emplaced = emplacement and Nids can only use auto fire.

But RAW doesn't forbid my Nids from manual firing that Icarus Lascannon and Quad Gun if purchased with the Imperial Bastion or Aegis Defence Line.  As this is looking to be the Nids best option for air defence, I'll be arguing RAW in competitive environments until we get FAQ nerfed - again.


Offline Zilverscale

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #28 on: July 4, 2012, 01:37:20 PM »
Alos pretty miffed about Vectored Strike.
Flying MC's can't use Smash while doing it -.-

So flying MC's, unless they come with S8+, are pretty useless vs most flyers.

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Offline Reepy

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #29 on: July 4, 2012, 01:40:28 PM »
Alos pretty miffed about Vectored Strike.
Flying MC's can't use Smash while doing it -.-

So flying MC's, unless they come with S8+, are pretty useless vs most flyers.

With d3+1 hits s6 flyers have a very good chance of punching through most flyers (AV11) and at least glancing the others (AV12). Since Flyers have only 2 HP I think it's more than enough.

Offline Zilverscale

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #30 on: July 4, 2012, 01:46:12 PM »
Hmmm

On average 2.5 hits.
S6
AV11 = 0.833333 glances or better and 0.416666 penetration
AV12 = 0.416666 glance (same for S5 vs AV11)

Doesn't look like good chances in my book.

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Offline Reepy

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #31 on: July 4, 2012, 01:56:25 PM »
Hmmm

On average 2.5 hits.
S6
AV11 = 0.833333 glances or better and 0.416666 penetration
AV12 = 0.416666 glance (same for S5 vs AV11)

Doesn't look like good chances in my book.

Isn't d3+1 an average of 3?

But even with your current calculation if flying monsters could just go over flyers and kill them what would be the point of flyers? Even a Melta cannot hope to kill a vehicle with just one shot (not even gonna calculate the hit and armor penetration dice, but you need to score at least a 4 on a single damage table roll to kill it which makes the chance of the best weapon against vehicles that has to come near a tank less than 50%).

So the tyrant has a penetration chance of 50% against AV11. Now let's say he has Brainleech worms too. Well maybe he won't kill it in a single turn but in two... probably.

Offline WisdomLS

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #32 on: July 4, 2012, 01:58:03 PM »
Since Flyers have only 2 HP I think it's more than enough.

Sorry to be picky but I've seen you post this about flyers in a couple of places, you are incorrect. Only a single flyer has 2 HP's, all of the rest that are currently available have 3, a full list of the hull points for all vehicles can be found in the back of your BDB.

Back to the emplaced/emplacement discussion, whilst I agree that GW most likely meant for their FAQ entry to cover both types of weapon it didn't.

Going by the rulebook they are completely different types of weapons with different rules governing there use and how they are effected by and interact with other element of the rules.

The fortress of redemption is the only fortification that can buy emplaced weapons as the model comes with heavy bolters that can be mounted inside the building, this is what makes them emplaced.
The bastion and aegis defence line kits come with free standing weapon mounts and thus these are brought as emplacement weapons as they are not a weapon that is integrated inside the building and can not be fired by models inside the building only by models in base to base contact with the weapon model.

I know they sound very similar and are similar in use but they have separate rules from separate sections of the rulebook and work in distinctly different ways so I don't think you can treat them as the same, if you did which set of rules would you use?

Offline Gornon

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #33 on: July 5, 2012, 03:45:03 AM »
I see one possible loophole we can use.  Under gun emplacement it reads that the type of weapon depends on the model itself.  It then gives a few suggestsions on shooting models.  To me, the stats of a gun emplacement are in the hands of the players, so why not take advantage of that fact?  I don't see anything preventing it in the rules.  I fully expect to see Ork Supa Mega Dakka Quads, Necron Gauss AA, and Tau Markerlight towers, why not Tyranids, too?

Why not make some sort of Tyranid "gun" emplacement?  Maybe a long-barreled Impaler Cannon with Skyfire.  Then add in the special rule "Synaptic Uplink: Only Tyranids may use this weapon.  No, the don't use their opposeable thumbless hands, they brain-jack in"  Of course, it's useless in a torny, but for normal games, it should be ok.

Edit: Also, the Skyfire result on the Mysterious Objective rule could help too if Lady Luck is smiling.  A full brood of Hive Guard getting Skyfire would be a nasty surprise for Flyers.

Edit 2: Or if the Implare AA Cannon won't jive, why not take the Quad-Qun entry and then tac on a modified special rule.  Broken Sensors: The Quad-Gun's tracking systems are damaged and can not tell friend from foe.  Any unit that get's close may regester their side as friendlies at the gun's bio-scanner.   At the end of each player's Shooting Phase, the Quad-Gun auto-targets the nearest of that Flyers or Flying Monster at BS 3.  If one player has a model in 3 inches, his units are exempt.  If both players are within 3 inches, the gun's sensors regester both as friendlies and the gun shuts down.

This rule is more impartial and adds the additional goal of needing to rush the gun emplacement which could add some fun the game.
« Last Edit: July 5, 2012, 04:15:59 AM by Gornon »
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Offline Travellar

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #34 on: July 9, 2012, 03:27:04 PM »
because once you start writing in your own rules for an AA mount with extra rules, you're opponets will likely be hesitant to allow it's use.

Something pointed out this weekend, the quad guns have the interceptor rule, which means we can use them in our opponets turn to open up on reserves arriving.  This doesn't do squat for BS2, but it does allow selection of the appropriate (air) targets.  Also, it is my opinion that we get follow on shots everytime the vehicles re-arrive after leaving the battlespace.
« Last Edit: July 9, 2012, 03:31:50 PM by Travellar »
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Offline mrspungebob

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2012, 07:07:12 AM »
A flyrant with the Biomancy power Iron arm will have S7-9. If you manage to pick that power then the Flyrant can be quite effective at vector striking flyers.
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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2012, 07:14:13 AM »
Also note that one of the Mysterious Objectives allows units holding that objective may choose to fire as if they had the Skyfire special rule. While it is absolutely not something you can build a list around, it is something worth remembering in games.
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Offline mrspungebob

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2012, 07:25:50 AM »
The Telekinesis deck also opens up some possibilities, especially for a Zoanthrope squad. Objuration Mechanicum gives a single haywire hit and Crush gives a S 2D6 autohit, both surpassing the snap shotting and both having a fair range and the possibility to destroy flyers by penetration or hull points.
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Offline shaten

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2012, 08:38:50 AM »
A flyrant with the Biomancy power Iron arm will have S7-9. If you manage to pick that power then the Flyrant can be quite effective at vector striking flyers.

vector strike is base strength only.
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Offline mrspungebob

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2012, 09:15:03 AM »
True, bummer...
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