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Author Topic: Dealing with Flyers  (Read 10150 times)

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Offline Travellar

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Dealing with Flyers
« on: July 2, 2012, 06:39:11 PM »
My opinion may be biased by all the Guard vs Guard games we played this weekend while learning the rules, but Flyers seem to be a key unit type in 6th ed.  The hard to hit rules make them extremely difficult to counter, while they also get to shoot considerably more than most other vehicles.

The biggest drawbacks to using Zoom all the time is it gets a little tricky trying to line up shots every turn, but the solution to that seems to be just zipping off the table, only to return with several more turns of shooting lined up.

As a Tyranid player, I'm not sure how to counter rocket pod Valkeries or Lascannon crazy Vendettas.  It seems like too much firepower to simply ignore, and the near impossibility of getting anything but front or side armor shots against them means we've precious little firepower that can A) Hurt them, and B) be taken in sufficient quantity to get hits.

Vector Strikes allow hits on side armor of flyers, but from my understanding, are limited to the basic strength of the creatures involved. (so Str 6 on Tyrnats, apparently without extra dice)

there's always the option of bringing along an ally who has decent chances against aircraft... Unless you're Tyranids.

Anyone got any ideas how to counter a Valkerie/Vendetta heavy army?
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Offline WisdomLS

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #1 on: July 2, 2012, 07:14:15 PM »
I know it seems a bit strange for a tyranid player to use them but maybe get some fortifications, you could model them up to look niddy.

The quad guns and lascannons that you can take on bastions and aegis defense lines are pretty decent and have good odds verses most flyers.
There are a few things that help mitigate the powers of flyers, one of the random objectives gives skyfire, fortification, some of the psychic powers (i think). I think most armies will be relying on these for now with newer codex's getting better anti-air options as they come out.

Other than that weight of fire and getting re-rolls seems the way to go.

Offline Exalted One

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #2 on: July 3, 2012, 02:28:35 AM »
One could model a bunch of non-tyranid models to clearly look they are under tyranid influence and are using the fortification's weaponry to defend the 'nids... maybe? Or how about genestealer cultists?  :D
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Offline Reepy

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #3 on: July 3, 2012, 02:55:59 AM »
First of all don't forget that flyers are 2HP. So two glances and that's it.

From the ground there isn't much you can do except a volley of shots of course. Storm Ravens, Necron Scythes and Ork Flyers have low armour value so a voley of hits from even a Deathspitter can do something. The problematic flyers are Vendetas/Valkiries and StormRavens as they have more Front and Side. The Valkyries have a minimal back armour and since they have limited move you will have the chance to shoot them down with enough glances at the back.

Tyrants and Carnifex with dual Brainleech Worms - 12 twin-linked hits will bring down a flyer. (Don't forget that twin-linked works with spit-fire) Maybe not in a turn but in two... If you take wings for the Tyrant he may be able to be at the back.

Tyrant with wings has about 50% chance of glancing a flyer he flies over.

Hive guard should put a s8 hit for every 6 tries. It's a good chance and in a turn or three they will put it down. This might seem too much but three Hive Guard do not cost as much as a flyer and if they manage to kill it in three turns it will not have paid for itself but the guards will have.

Warriors with DeathSpitters - have a chance to bring down the things but not very easy

And finally Fortifications - we can use them but it's not as fluffy.

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« Last Edit: July 3, 2012, 02:12:05 PM by Dipsomaniac »

Offline Pershore

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #4 on: July 3, 2012, 03:16:18 AM »
I think filling the sky with brain leeches is the best looking option. You can also dogfight with harpies I believe.

Offline Reepy

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #5 on: July 3, 2012, 03:32:31 AM »
I think filling the sky with brain leeches is the best looking option. You can also dogfight with harpies I believe.

Well you cannot swoop reliably as the harpy's S is only 5 and as far as I know flyer monsters don't have skyfire. Do they?

Offline Pershore

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #6 on: July 3, 2012, 03:48:29 AM »
I think filling the sky with brain leeches is the best looking option. You can also dogfight with harpies I believe.

Well you cannot swoop reliably as the harpy's S is only 5 and as far as I know flyer monsters don't have skyfire. Do they?
Hmm I don't really have the flying creature rules down yet. Don't they get to fire at regular bs? (flier vs flier) if not then I guess I'm looking at a bastion with quad gun, and a couple of beasties with double brain leech

Offline wren

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #7 on: July 3, 2012, 07:01:38 AM »
FAQ's nerfed the fortification option, so it looks like it's either dogfights in the skies or just pure weight of fire to bring them down.

Offline Reepy

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #8 on: July 3, 2012, 07:04:36 AM »
FAQ's nerfed the fortification option, so it looks like it's either dogfights in the skies or just pure weight of fire to bring them down.

What kind of nerf are you talking about? I cannot find a RuleBookFAQ. Only codices FAQs and the tyranid one has nothing about fortifications I believe.

Offline shaten

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #9 on: July 3, 2012, 08:03:17 AM »
1. Fliers have a special rule to allow choosing to use the skyfire USR for a round. Creatures don't have this option.

2. Tyranid codex faq 3rd question in FAQ, no weapons from the buildings.
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Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #10 on: July 3, 2012, 08:43:56 AM »
As shaten has so concisely put it, Flying Monstrous Creatures do not get the option to select skyfire for a round (unlike flyers), so flying shooting is no more reliable for us against flyers than the rest. Shaten also puts his finger on why selecting fortifications is a no-go: according to the FAQ, Tyranids, not having the spare opposable digits, can't operate weapon emplacements.

So our best option, I would say, is probably to stock up on lots of devourers with brainleech worms. A single Hive Tyrant rocking those bad boys can expect, on average, 3-4 hits per turn. At strength 6, against most of the flyers I'm aware of, that likely leads to about 1 or 2 glances per turn, depending on what armour facing you're going for (AV12 of course your odds decrease a lot. Any flyers with AV12 all over the shop?). So with not a huge amount of luck, a single MC with 2 x brainleech devourers should be able to glance a single flyer to death. Take 2 or 3 such monsters (Carnifex work just as well) and you should be able to put a significant dent in your opponent's flying cohorts.

It's no sure fire thing of course, but it has to be said that there are a LOT of other races with similar, if not worse problems. Sisters of Battle, for instance, will have serious issues shifting flyers unless they take an allied flyer themselves. We don't have the best kit to deal with flyers in the game (cough cough Hydras cough), but it is doable.
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Offline Reepy

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #11 on: July 3, 2012, 09:06:50 AM »
Any flyers with AV12 all over the shop?
The Valkyrie/Vendetta and the Storm Raven. Not sure if we'll see many of the Storm Ravens but I am positive we will see A LOT of Vendettas. They are practically a steal for what they do and what they cost. Though their limited movement (only 90 degrees turn) will leave their behind (AV10) very easy to target, unless they go into ongoing reserves every odd turn.

Carnifexes and Tyrants with Brainleech worms will take care of these (Carnifexes are back on the menu boys).

Offline shaten

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #12 on: July 3, 2012, 09:50:00 AM »
i would like to add in disgust, GW calls this the cinematic rule set.

What is more cinematic than a flying MC latching on to an aircraft trying to rip it apart while the pilot makes desperate  jink moves to try to throw off the creature why the MC clings on and is moved by the random movement of the plane.

yhea, thanks GW......
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Offline Reepy

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #13 on: July 3, 2012, 09:52:35 AM »
i would like to add in disgust, GW calls this the cinematic rule set.

What is more cinematic than a flying MC latching on to an aircraft trying to rip it apart while the pilot makes desperate  jink moves to try to throw off the creature why the MC clings on and is moved by the random movement of the plane.

yhea, thanks GW......

Well that's probably the idea of the Vector Strike. At least that's how I imagine it.

Offline shaten

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #14 on: July 3, 2012, 10:06:35 AM »

Well that's probably the idea of the Vector Strike. At least that's how I imagine it.

That is like calling bud light a good beer.

I still don't think dakka fexs are good AA. Sure they can do it but it's a bunch of points that still dies like always. I'm thinking blast templates might be better. Or a tyranofex with preferred enemy to reroll ones?

also there are fliers with rear armor 11 so a rear shot may not help.
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Offline Reepy

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #15 on: July 3, 2012, 10:12:47 AM »

Well that's probably the idea of the Vector Strike. At least that's how I imagine it.

That is like calling bud light a good beer.

I still don't think dakka fexs are good AA. Sure they can do it but it's a bunch of points that still dies like always. I'm thinking blast templates might be better. Or a tyranofex with preferred enemy to reroll ones?

also there are fliers with rear armor 11 so a rear shot may not help.

You cannot use blasts on flyers.

About the rear armour I was referring only to the Vendettas/Valkyries because they are F/S - AV12 and cannot be killed easily by Brainleech worms. AV11 can though.

Tyranofex does have a chance but how will he get the preferred enemy? A tyrant standing close by? And rerolling just ones as you fail on all other dice too isn't very good. Also to expensive.

Offline shaten

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #16 on: July 3, 2012, 10:20:44 AM »
couldn't remember about blast, rule book in the truck...

I normally had a tyrant with preferred enemy in the middle of my swarm, In 5th I used hormagaunts to shatter my opponents. (In 6th not so sure of it).

I just hate to bring dakka fexs to handle fliers, when they weren't point efficient before, now there still not efficient.

grumble grumble
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Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #17 on: July 3, 2012, 11:04:03 AM »
couldn't remember about blast, rule book in the truck...

I normally had a tyrant with preferred enemy in the middle of my swarm, In 5th I used hormagaunts to shatter my opponents. (In 6th not so sure of it).

I just hate to bring dakka fexs to handle fliers, when they weren't point efficient before, now there still not efficient.

grumble grumble

Bringing any single unit to take out any other single unit is a poor choice. The beauty of dakka fexes is that there are very few things now that they can't affect. Since being AP- now has no impact on your performance versus vehicles they are awesome for taking on pretty much anything, and they're not too shabby on overwatch either provided you're not being charged by something that's going to utterly crush you anyway (high assault terminators!)
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Offline Travellar

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #18 on: July 3, 2012, 11:06:17 AM »
The Storm Talon is the only 2 HP flyer I saw in the rulebook, most of them are 3.  From what I saw this weekend, don't expect to get many rear armor shots on flyers, preciely because of thier low manuverability.  Simply put, if they can't manuver to protect the rear armor, they probrably can't get the shooty end pointed at you either.  By extension, there's no reason to leave them on the table as nothing but a big target that turn, and they may as well flat out right off the other side.  Then come back on from thier own table edge, get probrably 2 more rounds of shooting, and back off again.  (repeat till end of game)

12 shots, let's say 2 hits.
10 rerolls, let's round that up to 2 more.
4 hits, need 6's to glance, that's maybe 1?
3 Flak'o'fexes could get the job done, but that's nearly 600 points.

As for any other race and flak, One person this weekend referred to the Guard as being well, loosely moraled.  Anyone can bring a Hydra. (except us)
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Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: Dealing with Flyers
« Reply #19 on: July 3, 2012, 11:16:00 AM »
Which means that there are probably a bare minimum of 2 turns where I don't have to worry about them then? The first turn and the turn where they're flying off the board to avoid their asses getting shot to amphetamine parrot? I'd also like to point out that I think Hydras are now a bit weaksauce on the grounds that they're nearly useless against anything but flyers and non-gliding FMCs. They're a lot of points just to take down some specific amphetamine parrot. I've played flyers using very similar rules to these before, if not harsher, and while they were undoubtedly irritating, they were also beatable.
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