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Eldar in 6th Edition

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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #20 on: July 1, 2012, 05:12:44 AM »
 

Lazarus

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I read the book last night and got one game in with my 5th edition IG list vs. Dark Eldar and watched several other games as well. (I shot him off the table)

My first thoughts for my Eldar army is that I am going to wait for the codex to come out before deciding much of anything for the long haul.

Hull points are brutal for vehicle surviability. The Falcon went from being one of, if not the toughest tanks in the game to destroy. To being the same or under some other choices. 3 glancing/Pen hits of any kind and you are dead (only 2 if it is back to back immobilized). With the changes to blasts doing full dmage, easier to hit vehicles in cc, throwing a greande, lesser cover etc. it means vehicles in general are easier to kill. Any type of weapon that can mass glance will be a viable way of "stripping" hull points away. Anything with tank hunters got a serious boost in power.

Firepower is king and placement of models is key. I melted away units and key modeld at every opportunity. The wound pool is sort of wonky and cumbersome on how it is used. We have precision fire for characters (Autarch w/ reaper / Maugan Ra etc.) that can really take advantage of this along with Pathfinders etc (sniper). You will be picking out key models all over the place when you add guide into the mix.

Vibro Cannons are very usefull now. Change to how artillery works and is targeted. They are much more resilient to shooting in general being nearly as tough as a wraithlord...

Psychic powers are ace. Had a blast with those. Eldrad should just keep his and have your other Seer swap powers. Force multiplication is going to rule this edition and buffs are hard / impossible to stop compared to other spells. Pro tip - you have to purchase powers to swap for new. If you are only buying a few, buy the cheapest ones since you are ditching them anyways. I'm sure this will change in the new book to be just "pick x powers" instead of buying them and raising cost of Farseer most likely. We have the best psychic defense overall.

Bikes got real good in general. Faced two units of Reavers yesterday. Pretty sure our bikes will get further options in new book. 

Squadron change may make them fairly viable again. No more immobilized is destroyed and all of the enemy fire keeps getting applied to closest model until it is destoryed before going to your next one. If you can get a good coversave re-rolled on the front model, you can potentially soak some damage. Russ sqaudrons like this are sick. Our squadrons are lightly armoured so it will be tricky.

Good thing our star cannons don't get hot as other plasma weapons can overheat on vehicles and even potentially take hull points away. I almost fried my executioner that way.

Just some initial thoughts. I will be testing some lists this week.
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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #21 on: July 1, 2012, 05:22:11 AM »
 

Genghis

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Something no one's mentioned yet is the potential of Star Engines+Flat Out+Cruising Speed = 42" in a turn.  I'm not sure if my interpretation is correct, but I'm working on the basis that as the bonus from Star Engines (an upgrade you have to pay for) is less than the movement for Fast Skimmers going Flat Out (an inherent rule you get for free), it would make no sense for it to be an either/or kinda thing; therefore, it would appear that the extra movement stacks.

I'll also support the assertion that Holofields are not worth the cost these days.  I had 3 vehicles with them in a game last night & only got to use them once; the rest of the damage was down to multiple glances stripping Hull Points.  (That said, I was playing Necrons who specialise in glancing vice penetrating.)
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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #22 on: July 1, 2012, 05:28:51 AM »
 

Lazarus

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Something no one's mentioned yet is the potential of Star Engines+Flat Out+Cruising Speed = 42" in a turn.  I'm not sure if my interpretation is correct, but I'm working on the basis that as the bonus from Star Engines (an upgrade you have to pay for) is less than the movement for Fast Skimmers going Flat Out (an inherent rule you get for free), it would make no sense for it to be an either/or kinda thing; therefore, it would appear that the extra movement stacks.

I'd have to check. Problem comes down to the tank is mega vulnerable to assult now and mega hard to deliver CC units to target intact compared to 5th edition. So far, I'm looking at a mostly foot / bike list till we get our new book.

Quote
I'll also support the assertion that Holofields are not worth the cost these days.  I had 3 vehicles with them in a game last night & only got to use them once; the rest of the damage was down to multiple glances stripping Hull Points.  (That said, I was playing Necrons who specialise in glancing vice penetrating.)

Yeah, it is hard to justify. I'm toying wit the idea of using one set in a squadron with that being the lead vehicle. Keep a cover save on it w/ Fortune and make that unit last alot longer due to new squadron rules. Don't know if it is really worth it or even viable yet.
"If someone used the ridiculous cover saves rule on me I'd probably punch him in the face. If he's still standing he would be entitled to punch me in the face, take my army, and my woman if he can. This is known as the Conan rule of play, and is not forbidden in the core rules and encourages serious amounts of sportsmanship." - Carniflex
 

Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #23 on: July 1, 2012, 05:33:29 AM »
 

Irisado

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Moderator Comment I've edited a few posts this morning for giving out too much rules information. Please don't do this. If someone can understand a rule from reading your text then you're giving too much information way to comply with the forum rules. Note that I won't have access to a rulebook until later this month, so if I can understand the rules from any of your posts, you're giving too much away. Please consider this a friendly reminder, and take note :).
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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #24 on: July 1, 2012, 06:11:40 AM »
 

mpopa

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I have a question which i believe no one has touch based in. How do we shooty eldar armies are going to deal with cc termies and BA sanguanor? In my normal list i have a dedicated cc unit for killing termies and meq. But now my banshees are almost useless, which leaves harlies the only option left that can deal with them in cc, since rending still works but pw have ap 3. This then led me to think some eldar armies(maybe me), are going to be allied with DE, since they have some anti termi and meq options in cc.
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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #25 on: July 1, 2012, 06:20:15 AM »
 

Lazarus

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Lots of AP2 shooting. Volume of fire in general. Fire Dragons etc.
"If someone used the ridiculous cover saves rule on me I'd probably punch him in the face. If he's still standing he would be entitled to punch me in the face, take my army, and my woman if he can. This is known as the Conan rule of play, and is not forbidden in the core rules and encourages serious amounts of sportsmanship." - Carniflex
 

Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #26 on: July 1, 2012, 06:22:17 AM »
 

mpopa

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No derp, but once there in cc its gg for us. You response doesnt answer the question, as i can see eldar no longer have any vialable cc anti meq units.
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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #27 on: July 1, 2012, 06:41:40 AM »
 

Aoitora

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Wraithlord or Avatar can deal with Sang guard/artificer armour. Hurts me too as Banshees are my favourite/most used aspect (aside from Dire Avengers but that's coz of the FOC). I'm just going to try pinning avengers and no other CC orientated units.
 

Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #28 on: July 1, 2012, 06:42:12 AM »
 

Lazarus

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Still characters like Yriel etc...
"If someone used the ridiculous cover saves rule on me I'd probably punch him in the face. If he's still standing he would be entitled to punch me in the face, take my army, and my woman if he can. This is known as the Conan rule of play, and is not forbidden in the core rules and encourages serious amounts of sportsmanship." - Carniflex
 

Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #29 on: July 1, 2012, 06:46:20 AM »
 

mpopa

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Can only do so much since his only one char. Im opting to getting a dark eldar force, instead of getting standered gaurdians, ill use kalabite warrriers and for cc use incubis and a succubi, or the good old harlies can do the trick, but still they squishy.

Squishy vs tanky = u need luck
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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #30 on: July 1, 2012, 08:56:47 AM »
 

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I still haven't gotten the BRB...I'm 2.5 hours drive time to the nearest GW, so I ordered the Gamers Edition.  Should expect to see it in the mail with a tracking number sometime tomorrow.

I played Eldar from 2007-2009 and lost the models (they were stolen) and knowing 6th and a new codex were around the corner I picked up a core of DA's, a council, banshees, Fire Prisms, and a Wraithlord 3 months ago.  Knowing full well of the fundamental changes that were going to take place I didn't want to get too into the specialist units.  Now I feel like I can splurge on others hearing about bikes, haywire, etc.  War Walkers or Vibro Cannons seem like a good bet as well.

All in short, thanks for the early glimpse into the imminent changes.
 

Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #31 on: July 1, 2012, 09:08:07 AM »
 

nesbitt_bub1

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potential of Star Engines+Flat Out+Cruising Speed = 42" in a turn

Unfortunately not.

Star engines and flat out both prevent any other voluntary actions that turn. And as such you get to use 1 or the other. Since flat out is better you no longer can use star engines until we get an faq that directly alters this fact. Meaning a total movement of just over 29"

The same is unfortunately true for DE vehicles with aether-sails, the sails work in the movement phase but prevent any shooting, If you can't shoot you can't move flat out. So in both cases your speed is locked at just over 29" And we have 2 useless vehicle upgrades.

The next useless vehicle upgrade is the Holofields since without a roll on the damage table for glancing it will have very little effect all game.

vectored engines are almost as pointless as well since only a lucky penetrating roll will make the upgrade have any effect. You have more chance of been glanced to death which will circumvent the upgrade.

Spirit stones are also weaker, Glancing hits will not cause them to be any use, and the few times you take a penetrating hit it will be modified to a point where SS have little or no effect. A single penetrating shot only has a 1/6 chance of activating the stones, And when the stones are active you still cannot shoot at your full BS. Meaning all they allow you to do is move flat out. You may as well save the points.

By my estimation all fire prisms got 45 points cheaper, and all wave serpents got 10 points cheaper in this edition.

Wave serpents are still by far the most effective and durable tank for the eldar. The reduction of ST means the tank is always at an advantage over the more expensive battle tank variants, And the twin linked guns give improved shooting V/s anything that requires high numbers to hit. While your unlikely to place anything other than shooting units in a wave serpent, the range and mobility still gives a solid tactical boost in a lot of situations.

The best way to keep a Prism safe now is range, Using that range to stay out of range of the multiple shot guns will keep your tank trucking for a few turns at least. But be aware outflanking and deep striking shooting units will probably destroy the prism before it gets to retaliate.

DE got the harsher end of the stick by a fair margin, Even with the range reduction there wargear gives they still will find themselves in range of most shooting and glanced to death very very quickly.

Warp spiders for me have had a surprising boost in tactical effectiveness. Since eldar are now going to struggle to deal with a well dung in shooting army the spider fill a role that swooping hawks simply cannot match. The durability of the spiders, matched with the speed they move at, and the ST of the guns they carry mean these are going to be needed to take out Hydra's and basilisks on the board edge. Hawks could do it in assault but since they cannot assault when they arrive, and the fact the spiders are faster mean that spiders are far far more effective. They also have the added advantage of armour and been able to dive for cover when they appear after shooting first.
« Last Edit: July 1, 2012, 09:41:05 AM by nesbitt_bub1 »
Has no narrative. FU GW with your stupid stories. I'm here to say my eldar are defending this very important Aegis landing platform... because it's pretty, They don't actually want the thing, and it's certainly not why there on this planet... but it's oh so shiny and technologically advanced.....
 

Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #32 on: July 1, 2012, 09:27:58 AM »
 

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potential of Star Engines+Flat Out+Cruising Speed = 42" in a turn

Unfortunately not.

Star engines and flat out both prevent any other voluntary actions that turn. And as such you get to use 1 or the other. Since flat out is better you no longer can use star engines until we get an faq that directly alters this fact. Meaning a total movement of just over 29"

The same is unfortunately true for DE vehicles with aether-sails, the sails work in the movement phase but prevent any shooting, If you can't shoot you can't move flat out. So in both cases your speed is locked at just over 29" And we have 2 useless vehicle upgrades.

Hmm... The errata sates and I am pretty sure I can type this as it is a free download from GW Please refer to page 3, and the second column of the FAQ.

= 42" win.

I'm inclined to agree with Nesbitt's other points though, I won't be taking any upgrades on my tanks. You make an interesting point about the spiders too, I think especially with reserves being faster and more reliable they might make a return to my army. If not then star engines on the wave serpents will be the way forward for dealing with far away artilery.

E

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« Last Edit: July 1, 2012, 03:18:02 PM by Irisado »
 

Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #33 on: July 1, 2012, 09:37:45 AM »
 

nesbitt_bub1

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As long as a vehicle is allowed to move that turn and does not shoot

Yes you can use them, But if you use 1 you cannot use the other. Since both require you to be able to shoot, and both stop you been able to shoot.

So you can "move+star engines" OR "move+flat out", But you cannot "Move + star engines + flat out" Or "move + flat out + star engines."

The 2 rules cancel As you cannot forfeit your chance to shoot twice.
« Last Edit: July 1, 2012, 09:43:50 AM by nesbitt_bub1 »
Has no narrative. FU GW with your stupid stories. I'm here to say my eldar are defending this very important Aegis landing platform... because it's pretty, They don't actually want the thing, and it's certainly not why there on this planet... but it's oh so shiny and technologically advanced.....
 

Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #34 on: July 1, 2012, 09:42:34 AM »
 

Erand

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As long as a vehicle is allowed to move that turn and does not shoot

Yes you can use them, But if you use 1 you cannot use the other. Since both require you to be able to shoot, and both stop you been able to shoot.

So you can "move+star engines" OR "move+flat out", But you cannot "Move + star engines + flat out" Or "move + flat out + star engines."

The 2 rules cancel.

I might have a little too much faith in GW but I'm pretty sure they would have put that in the FAQ. It is a little ambiguous but you are making a greater assumption that I am I think.
 

Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #35 on: July 1, 2012, 09:50:27 AM »
 

nesbitt_bub1

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In this instance RAW v/s RAI doesn't exist.

We have to take RAW as cannon as RAI using an outdated codex running on faq's means upgrades/weapons ect can be made ineffective. They have not removed star engines because they still work as intended, Unfortunately the new rule book gives a better option, Whilst moving the movement of tanks about a bit. We're not the only army affected, hence why i put up the DE example as well, Since in both cases upgrades are worse then the new rules. The codex rules still work, But not as well as they used to.

Another Great example is Warpspiders. Surprise assault has been in the codex without an faq for 3 editions of the rules now. However for 2 of those editions the upgrade was worthless as the rule book offered a better alternative for free.
Has no narrative. FU GW with your stupid stories. I'm here to say my eldar are defending this very important Aegis landing platform... because it's pretty, They don't actually want the thing, and it's certainly not why there on this planet... but it's oh so shiny and technologically advanced.....
 

Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #36 on: July 1, 2012, 10:15:33 AM »
 

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Most people are saying that the Banshee's took a hit, but I don't feel this is the case. The Power Weapon AP is the thing that people will have to get used to, which I think is a great change.

While now we don't have anything to crack Terminator armor straight away in close combat, but that just makes us have to use better battlefield tactics. I personally thought it was poor game play how people could just run down a squad of Terminators with a squad of Banshees. These are Terminators we are talking about here. Technically, the most bad a$$ things out there. Remember how a squad would be sent into a Space Hulk to clear it of Genestealers? They should be hard to kill because they are Space Marines wearing Tactical Dreadnaught Armour.

I am just saying to point it out. Banshees will still be excellent against everything with Power Armour or less. We just have to shoot at Terminators more, which to me seems a bit more realistic anyway. Now you have something to shoot your Prism Cannon at. Oh wait, I forgot, you guys tend to not take those.:P ;D
 

Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #37 on: July 1, 2012, 10:21:50 AM »
 

Lazarus

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It isn't just Terminators, it is anything with a 2+ save like IC's in the unit that is butchering you etc.
"If someone used the ridiculous cover saves rule on me I'd probably punch him in the face. If he's still standing he would be entitled to punch me in the face, take my army, and my woman if he can. This is known as the Conan rule of play, and is not forbidden in the core rules and encourages serious amounts of sportsmanship." - Carniflex
 

Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #38 on: July 1, 2012, 10:31:27 AM »
 

Irisado

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It isn't just Terminators, it is anything with a 2+ save like IC's in the unit that is butchering you etc.

One way of avoiding that issue, of course, is to avoid engaging that unit, since independent characters cannot be everywhere at once.

I remain undecided about Howling Banshees at the moment.  I think that while there appear to be a number of downsides on paper, they may be less of an issue in practice.  I'll certainly still be trying them out in my initial sixth edition list, in order to see if my concerns are actually remotely valid.
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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #39 on: July 1, 2012, 10:35:55 AM »
 

nesbitt_bub1

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Most people are saying that the Banshee's took a hit, but I don't feel this is the case. The Power Weapon AP is the thing that people will have to get used to, which I think is a great change.

Your missing several fundamental changes to the way the army works that hits them harder than the AP3 nerf.

Firstly you can no longer assault from a wave serpent or falcon, EVER.

Secondly they can be shot at as they assault. Overwatch.

So you are pretty much limited to having them on the field for 1 full turn at the very least. Before they can do anything. Added to that there a high priority target, with low T and a low save. To further compound them they only have an 18" assault range, This means they will be shot, Probably at least twice by the unit there targeting. And probably by other units as well.

A single 20 man guardsman squad (easy picking in 5th ed), Will hail you with a volley of fire over 2 turns that will turn the banshees into an ineffective unit as they hit combat (if they make it). And you have to remember due to the 18" rule you will take 2 full turns of shooting in most cases, followed by the overwatch. You will need to be within 30" prior to your assault turn. leaving your unit at less than 18" away from the enemy. @<30" a unit can move 6" and shoot you with rapid fire, and still be out of assault range, You then close the gap 18", take a turn of rapid fire, then assault taking an overwatch. Even if played perfectly and you only manage to get shot at the one time, they can close to rapid fire range, unleash a hail of fire and still overwatch your ass.... It's loose loose.

Without a seer the unit is weak, With a seer the unit is more durable but expensive and ineffective against TEQ's. So the seer is better placed in shooting units where he can augment the shooting to deal with those threats faster.

If the guardsman have some ability ro-roll hits the odds are even more stacked against you.

If you can get them into combat at full unit Strength then they will do fine, But in order to do that you have to have units stacking with units, And units screening units. in order to do this you need models in abundance, Added to that if your using 20 guardians as a meat shield you may not hit combat yourself with the new rules for assaults and how you engage models since the guardians would be taking up most of the BTB spaces since they assaulted first to take the overwatch hits.

Either way banshees are unfortunately relegated below more durable units, More shooty units and more defensive units. making them almost redundant if your taking a competitive play list.

« Last Edit: July 1, 2012, 10:49:42 AM by nesbitt_bub1 »
Has no narrative. FU GW with your stupid stories. I'm here to say my eldar are defending this very important Aegis landing platform... because it's pretty, They don't actually want the thing, and it's certainly not why there on this planet... but it's oh so shiny and technologically advanced.....
 

 


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