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Eldar in 6th Edition

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Eldar in 6th Edition
« on: June 30, 2012, 04:08:50 PM »
 

Lord Ulthanash

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I figured people would want to discuss this (I know that I certainly do). For anyone who hasn't seen it yet, here's the link to our errata/FAQ for 6th edition:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420312a_Eldar_6th_Ed_V1.pdf

So... from browsing so far, what do/don't you like? How do you think things will be affected, generally? Obviously we'll get better answers when we get actual games in with the new rules (right now all of this is from several sessions of browsing/skimming through the rulebook).

I'm not quite sure how I feel about the new psychic power system - I'll have to wait and see and actually use it before I pronounce judgment though.

I really like the vehicle rules (regarding hull points and such), but mech lists may take a beating because of it (I personally think that's a good thing). I also love overwatch shots in some regards (guardians are a lot more viable, in my view) but also think it seriously screwed us in some regards. Harlequins/Banshees aren't too sturdy, and even a couple of casualties before combat can cripple the unit.

I'll post more of my thoughts after I've really read through it, those were just the initial things that came to mind. As always, let's stick to forum rules and not post any actual rules here (I know that it's all new and exciting and people might forget/overstep boundaries - I almost did a couple of times).


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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2012, 04:12:25 PM »
 

Rummy

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Global Moderator Comment Advanced warning - no wish listing. Discuss the rules as they are and not how you'd like then to be. No complaints about having an older codex (::cough:: Tau). You've got a thread already for wish listing so use it if you feel so forced to. Proper rules questions should be taken to the Rules Board please.
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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2012, 04:34:17 PM »
 

Lord Ulthanash

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Jetbikes have gotten huge boosts in my opinion. The toughness bonus is permanent, and the jink and hammer of wrath special rules add close combat punch and general defense. I'm tempted to take more jetbikes (particularly shining spears) in my future lists.


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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2012, 04:36:54 PM »
 

NightMoor

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My first couple of thought:

- Swooping Hawks are relatively useful again as Haywire is godly now.
- Mech has been weakened severely overall, Eldar is no exception. Shooty Dire Avengers will do reasonably alright (but they can't hide in a Wave Serpent too safely as now Stunned affects you even if you disembark next turn) but stuff like Banshees have taken a massive hit.
- The new powers are tolerable and even a few decent ones in there but I think the majority of Eldar players are going to just stick with the codex powers as they are more consistent.
- Shining Spears are harder to shoot down! Jink + Skilled Rider = awesome.
- Witchblades have been pooooowerrrrrrreddd d dooooowwwwwwwn against vehicles. Not useless by any stretch but definitely not amazing vs AV.
- On the flipside, Seer Council members with Destructor will be absolutely brutal to charge against. Very nice.
- Pathfinders got a nice boost with the new Sniper rules! Interesting....
- Our Jetbikes are pretty mindblowing right now. I'm still trying to wrap my head around whether they are now "awesome" or "totally awesome". Hammer of Wrath will mean lots more targets of opportunity for charging with bike units, especially if you keep Doom in the army.

Just a few thoughts for now, going to keep studying the book.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 04:38:38 PM by NightMoor »
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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2012, 05:01:03 PM »
 

longshanks

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I am slightly curious as to what Swooping Hawks with Intercept will do against Hovering Flyers.... ;D


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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2012, 05:09:59 PM »
 

Lord Ulthanash

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Jink, Skilled Rider, Hammer of Wrath, laser lances, a possible maximum movement range of 36" .... Shining Spears are definitely worth their points now, in my view. Considering my unnatural love for the unit, I don't think I'll be writing any lists without them now.

Completely forgot about Seer Councils and destructor.... even 2 destructor 'locks can put out some serious damage with overwatch. I agree that witchblades have taken a hit a bit, but it doesn't bother me too much. How many people were really using them as a dedicated anti-tank unit (except for jetbike councils - those were terrifying sights to behold).

I may be wrong about this, but from my skimming it seemed to me that a vehicle will be able to fire two weapons at a certain speed (as opposed to one main weapon and one defensive weapon). To me, that greatly increases the falcon's usefulness as a gunboat (providing I understood that correctly). Pulse laser + starcannon/scatter laser? Goodbye unit of terminators (providing there's no cover).

I heard someone say that holo-fields got nerfed, but I can't find any evidence of this. If so, can someone point me to a page in the rulebook that explains this?

What makes haywire godly?


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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2012, 05:24:48 PM »
 

Irisado

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Moderator Comment On the topic of reminders, please don't ask questions about what the new rules do or write out what any of the new rules do. It's very tempting when a new edition is released, but it's against the forum rules to describe rules in detail, so please don't.

Mechanised Eldar have been somewhat weakened by sixth edition, based on the information I have at my disposal.  In my view, I think that this is good, as it should hopefully encourage more diversity in Eldar list design than has been the case throughout the latter stages of fifth edition.  The DAVU spam mechanised list, in particular, is now very poor, owing to the new rules regarding capturing objectives, so thankfully that bland unit should disappear from Eldar forces very quickly.

It would seem that Eldar assault units have taken a further hit though, which is a bit of a shame, and some elements of the FAQ raises a number of questions through what it doesn't answer, the issue of Spirit Stones and a Farseer's mastery level being the most obvious one which I've seen being discussed.

In summary, it's pretty much like any other edition in the sense that some units have suffered, while others have been improved, but it does appear to encourage more diverse list making for the Eldar at this early stage.  It should be quite exciting  :).
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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2012, 05:29:50 PM »
 

Partninja

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What makes haywire godly?

You'll have to find out by reading the rulebook. If I understand correctly, even glances will eat up hull points. So a squad of Hawks can chew up even the strongest of AV. Plus, it's there for all to see in the rulebook

I would still prefer another unit for tank hunting though.

Moderator Comment Edited, so as not to give rules away in line with my comment above - Iris.

EDIT: long story short - Haywire grenades glance easily - glances can destroy vehicles easy - Hawks can chew up LRs with ease.

Moderator Comment Changed one bit that was still too specific, the rest is okay - Iris.
« Last Edit: July 1, 2012, 05:12:23 AM by Irisado »
 

Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2012, 05:43:27 PM »
 

syth773

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sorry, can't use destructors with overwatch.  overwatch follows the same rules as snap shots and snap shots have restrictions on what kind of weapons can be used, see page 13.

speaking of haywires, you can also now have a single model in a unit equiped with grenades throw that grenade as a shooting action.  perfect way to knock off that last hull point of a vehicle with a haywire grenade.

This edition is very shooty friendly (especially rapid fire weapons) and heavy vehicles with good armor also benefit.  Sadly lighter vehicles that can be glanced by smaller weapons will go down faster (poor orks lol).
 

Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2012, 05:52:31 PM »
 

nesbitt_bub1

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I've been looking through rules and working out what affects what.

Troops.

Guardians in 20 man squads are now viable again. Your still going to want a scatter laser in there. In smaller than 10 mans your risking them i think as transports are now a lot weaker. Conceal warlocks are now pretty good as well since unit size make the upgrade to a warlock cost under 2 points a model for a constant 5++ cover save. Pretty much a bargain.

Dire avengers need an FAQ. Bladestorm with it's current wording works for the turn... so you can bladestorm twice in a turn. Once in the shooting phase and again in overwatch... that's a lot of firepower when under guide, or even better foreboding and prescience (divination p420 primis and 1). You could be seeing 64 shots from a 10 man unit in a turn. slightly less than a 20 man guardian unit under ideal conditions but the extra range of the avengers makes the tactic more flexible.

Guardian jetbikes. Someone needs to confirm this one for me. But turbo boost happens in the shooting phase now... Does that mean the total distance they can travel is just under 50"..... If so this unit in 3 man squads just became the new objective grabbing unit for the eldar. You'll be wanting to keep them safe and out of LOS till turn 6 then objective grab like a retard. It's also one of the cheapest objective grabber in the eldar list that can work at speed without any mech backup.

Rangers and pathfinders for me have always been weak options i don't think this rule set changes that, While they have great durability, the killing potential for the unit is limited for the points cost.

Warwalkers with scatter lasers are now a defensive unit. Been able to move and shoot like always, and have a cover save has not changed however the unit can now shoot in overwatch against an assaulting unit. Thats a lot of High st firepower to bring to bear on a would be assaulter. Intermingled with a defensive troop block warwalkers should now be dancing with the troops. Moving forward to help take an assault, and overwatching as appropriate. The EML and BL are still the weakest options for warwalkers. Scatters and shurican cannons been the top tier guns. Scatter just winning out on volume and range.

Vibrocannons are back in until they get an faq. The line you draw can hit a flyer atm, and anything else in the path, This means when spammed there more effective against vehicles then a fireprism, falcon, or wraithlord. The new rules also ensure the unit will not die to a single high st blast, Since you can have 4 T7 wounds per gun with a decent save, cover saves, and invulnerables if you take the correct terrain assets.

Farseers got messed up a little, you still have to buy powers from codex eldar to be able to replace them with random powers..... Not ideal. However replacing guide for divination. Rolling then picking the primis power if you get a crap roll is an option. Effectively you replace guide with a better version of guide for free. The other option of replacing both powers is a little contested as you could end up with a power that is useless. a roll of a 2, 4, 5, or 6 would be a loss over straight guide and doom.

Elrad suffers from the above problem But he must replace all of his powers if he wants to use divination... basically it's not worth doing.

Fire dragons - tank hunters is now the single best anti tank skill to have. With Firedragons it adds up to a lot of vehicle hurt. I can't imagine any vehicle lasting 1 round with a squad on it's heels. Flyer hunting is probably still better off left to multishot ranged units like warwalkers, venoms, and serpents tho.

Fire prisms... they can't hurt flyers, And the fact it's an overpointed tank based on it's previous durability make this one redundant now. It's too easy to scatter off target, And be glanced to death where holofields will give you no bonuses. Basically it's not worth using until a new codex hits. Same goes for the falcon. Wave serpents and troops can do in shooting what these tanks are supposed to do, But at least a wave serpent can never be glanced on 2's in it's front arc. (Unless you count haywire blasters lol). Heavy support is all about durability now and falcon chassis are not going to offer that for a few months.


Hmm it's getting late I'll have a think about more units as i work out lists in my head and roll dice on the table against imaginary troops....
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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2012, 06:44:38 PM »
 

NightMoor

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sorry, can't use destructors with overwatch.  overwatch follows the same rules as snap shots and snap shots have restrictions on what kind of weapons can be used, see page 13.

Then you need to read the thickly bolded print near the bottom right hand side of page 52 :). Flamers and Templates of any type are subject to the Wall of Death rule, which, indeed, will cook upstart assaulters silly ;)

Global Moderator Comment If you look through the thread you will notice that someone else made an attempt to answer the question of why Haywires are godly, and their post got edited because of that. Maybe it is an indication that answering it is against the rules.

Edit#2: @ Irisado: Actually it does answer the question of Spirit Stones on Farseers - pg 66 under the heading "Establishing Mastery Levels", middle of the second paragraph that begins, "In older codexes...". Short version: ML2
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 08:00:28 PM by Grand Master Lomandalis »
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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2012, 07:31:32 PM »
 

Lachdonin

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Universal changes to Fleet, Vehicle Movement and Eldar Jetbikes make our army faster on the whole.

Overwatch makes our charges less reliable.

New USR's for Jetbikes make Shining Spears a reliable line-breaker instead of just monster hunters.

The changes to MC's make Wraithlords less of a must-have.

Changes to scoring make Transports less attractive for everyone.

Warlord Traits (all of them, really) make Autarchs more useful.

Changes to Vehicle Squadrons make Vypers less useless.

Changes to how Blast-vs-Armour works makes Fire Prisims good tank hunters again.

And, of course, a full Swooping Hawk unit is now practically gaurenteed to kill a tank, regardless of how strong, per turn.

I can see the changes to Psykers being very interesting when we get brought up to date, but as it stands they aren't particularly attractive... What you get is too unreliable for an army which really requires you have a specific power for a specific situation.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 08:26:58 PM by Lachdonin »
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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2012, 08:09:21 PM »
 

syth773

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ah, my bad about the overwatch part.  Good to see they'll still be useful.

Why are people saying MC's are less useful in this edition?  I don't see any significant differences (at least the normal MC's, flying ones got a ton of changes).  They seem to have retained most of their traits, or is it just that they arn't needed as much to take out vehicles?
 

Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2012, 08:19:28 PM »
 

magenb

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The big problem will be CC dreadnoughts, as most of our units will be completely useless against them.

Small units size (compared to horde) may hamper our C with regards to Challanges.

Banshee's are now only good against power armour. The executioner... since it is a power axe does it count as I1 or does the banshee mask over rule?

Deny the witch.... means every one can nulify psykers...

 

Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2012, 08:21:23 PM »
 

Lachdonin

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The volume of +S weapons, the ability to use grenades, combined with how common Krak Grenades are, make Wraithlords far more vulnerable to being pulled down in combat against Infantry. The total loss of the 2D6 armour penetration makes MC's less reliable against vehicles, and half of the Smash ability is wasted because of the Wraithlords inherent Strength characteristic.

This is before the changes to Vehicle Damage. Now, a Wraithlord is unlikely to glance a tank to death in a single turn, let alone destroy it. Plus, you know, Tanks are faster, so it'll be lucky to catch the darned thing.
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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2012, 11:15:23 PM »
 

Fable

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I played a mirror match today of Ulthwe vs Iyanden under 6th.

Howling Banshees and Harlequins aren't realistically line breaker style assaulters now.  They seem to be more of a sweep up style assault.  The Avatar feels beefier from the ability to challenge.  Wraithlords can as well, and their ability to precise strike can take down a stray power fist before it gets a chance to hit.

The new psychic powers are awesome.  I used Eldrad in my list and thanks to the fire at closest rule I was able to pop my opponent's farseer very early.  My psychic dominance after that was fearsome.  I splatted a unit of warp spiders (psychic shriek is like an amped up mindwar), Forced Wraithguard to do no more than move (hallucination), used foreboding to force a unit of dire avengers to reroll successful saves (including Asurmen), and used Forewarning or whatever it is to dish out a 4++ wherever I wanted, which made the Wraithlord a bit hefty to deal with.  Farseers are more like second edition where the powers you grab mean you'll be redefining them each game and how they support your forces.  The extra ranges can allow the farseer to help turn the tide of battle in multiple ways compared to the current, very static, powers.  Also, take warlocks whenever you can.  The bonus to DTW is worth it.

Our tanks are still a solid option, but vehicles in general won't be as tough as they were.  This does, however, mean we can more reliably kill vehicles just by glancing which helped improve the dependability of a unit like Wraithguard.

Bikes are very interesting to use now and you can take them and safely explore with things like embolden over the previous prerequisite conceal thanks to the jink save.

The Eldar army will struggle against air units.  Currently we have no skyfire outside of fortifications or allies.

Leading from the back is not how the game goes realistically.  You'll want to keep characters in the middle of a squad.  If you keep them at the back your opponent will deep strike behind you and splat them.
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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #16 on: July 1, 2012, 12:53:00 AM »
 

Avintril

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Still waiting for my rulebook. Just one more day lol! Anyway, just wanted to ask a few questions based on what I am hearing....

1) Do you think we will be seeing more full units slogging across the field?

2) Would Dire Avengers on Overwatch+Bladestorm really give DAs that many shots?!?!

3) Since jetbikes seem to be better off these days... when do you think we'll get new models? ;) jk

4) If Banshees are only good for power armor now what would be recommended for the heavy stuff?

5) Are we really going to become more of a shooty army than we already are? And with our low ranges on most.... everything in a squad....

I guess that was all of them lol.
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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #17 on: July 1, 2012, 01:40:02 AM »
 

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Holo-fields nerf: well it doesn't matter what kind of result you got. You still need to read the rulebook to find out what happens.

We are back to being the number one psychic force. And why is that you say? The major nerf of the psychic hood. Not to mention that now not even an inv save will save you from perils and against our farseers any one who wants to cast a psychic power has about 40% chance of taking a wound instead.

Haywire grenades You'll need to read the rulebook to see how they work.

Snap-shot: Oh how I love this. All our multy shot weapons will be able to shoot, and even with the reduced BS a shot or two will go off.

Moderator Comment Please don't describe the rules in detail, it's against the forum rules. Post edited accordingly - Iris.

« Last Edit: July 1, 2012, 05:20:22 AM by Irisado »
 

Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #18 on: July 1, 2012, 03:06:01 AM »
 

Aoitora

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This is how I see things after reading the rule book, this is all just theory from reading the rules Iím not going to comment on vehicles as Iíd like to test them out in play first.

Avatar Ė I think this guy will do okay
Pro: Fear, itís in writing he ignores flamestorm cannons, smash attack, Hammer of Wrath, challenges?, Warlord trait
Con: Random charge range (Like scorpions this will generally help more than hinder I just donít like randomness)

Farseers
Pros: Best psychic defence in game, improves Deny the Witch to squads they are in, Warlord trait. Iíll be running 2 Farseers (RoWarding still stacks and thereís no range nerf) one using codex powers the other Divination. Doom + Misfortune = big lols!
Cons: Witchblade nerf

Autarch
Pros: Warlord trait, Hammer of Wrath if taking wings/WJG/JB, Precision shot
Cons: Canít think of much.

Warlocks
Pro: Bonus to Deny the Witch
Con: Witchblade nerf

Scorpions
Pros: Ö can throw plasma grenades?
Cons:  Overwatch, Random charge range (admittedly their charge range has the potential to be a lot higher, itís not like the fleet nerf but anything random is bad IMO) Disordered charge, Cover generally lower, Wound allocation (think shooting casualties when advancing), Challenges mean Claw Exarchs may die before being able to attack or be useless.

Fire Dragons
Pro: Fusion guns still own
Con: Melta bombs are unwieldy Ė this hurts for when youíre assaulted by dreadnaughts

Wraithguard
Pro: Fearless is buffed, Overwatch
Con:

Banshees
Pro: Challenges (Exarchs go Sergeant head hunting) CC wound allocation may prevent retaliatory attacks?
Cons: Overwatch, fleet nerf, random charge range, disordered charge, power weapon nerf, cover generally lower, shooting wound allocation

Harlequins
Pros: Rending AP still good, CC wound allocation may prevent retaliatory attacks? Shadowseer improves Deny the Witch
cons: VoT nerf, Overwatch, fleet nerf, random charge range, disordered charge, power weapon nerf (troupe master), cover generally lower, shooting wound allocation

Avengers
Pro: Overwatch, Shooting wound allocation (keeping assault units out of range) cover saves generally lower means more killy vs orks etc
cons: (if youíre one to use them as an assault unit add in all the cons bansheeís have)

Rangers
Pro: Precision shot, overwatch, cover saves generally lower means more killy
con: Nothing?

Guardian
Pro: Squads w/ a warlock have improved Deny the Witch, overwatch, Cover saves generally lower, heavy weapons able to damage vehicles when glances used to be kinda useless
Con: Lower cover saves for yourself?

I donít use Storm Guardians so got no real comments

GJB
Pro: Jink, Hammer of Wrath, wanna race? Seeya in 48Ē! Shuriken cannons can destroy vehicles, Warlock improves Deny the Witch
Con: I donít play Saim Hann I donít have enough jetbikes! witchblade nerf, Random Assault movement (generally will be higher but I donít like random)

Shining Spears (I think these guys get the most buffs)
Pro: Jink, Hammer of Wrath, ludicrous speed, Skilled Rider
Con: power weapon nerf

Warp Spiders
Pro: Hammer of wrath, Deep Striking is safer, vehicle shredders, overwatch
Con: power weapon nerf (Iím clutching for something)

Swooping Hawks
Pro: Hammer of wrath, Deep Strike is safer, can throw various grenades, shreds vehicles with haywire, overwatch
con: fleet nerf, power weapon nerf (this is clutching more than with the spiders, but I do fleet with my hawks often)

Shadow Spectres
Pro: overwatch, cover generally lower, may be able to rip off hull points well?
con: Random Assault movement (generally will be higher but I donít like random)

Support weapons: I skipped these rules I donít like artillery

Reapers: move and snap shot, overwatch, cover is generally lower
con: Canít overwatch the tempest launcher

Wraithlord
Pro: Easier to gain cover, Fear, Smash, Hammer of wrath, Overwatch/Wall of Death
Cons: Krak grenades/melta bombs

Did I miss anything? Overall I'm not liking close combat for my Eldar (my Wych Cult is crying on the shelf) however I think shooting is where it's at and that's how I'll be rewriting my lists.

Moderator Comment Removed some rule references which were too specific - Iris.
« Last Edit: July 1, 2012, 05:31:13 AM by Irisado »
 

Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #19 on: July 1, 2012, 05:12:16 AM »
 

magenb

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2) Would Dire Avengers on Overwatch+Bladestorm really give DAs that many shots?!?!

yeah not sure how this would work as well, the idea is they unload everything in the clip and need the next shooting phase to reload.


Farseers
Pros: Best psychic defence in game, improves Deny the Witch to squads they are in, Warlord trait. Iíll be running 2 Farseers (RoWarding still stacks and thereís no range nerf) one using codex powers the other Divination. Doom + Misfortune = big lols!


I thought the new psyker abilities were random.
« Last Edit: July 1, 2012, 05:20:55 AM by magenb »
 

 


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