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Dedicated Transports
« on: February 15, 2012, 12:17:08 PM »
 

Tweedz

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My Sisters of Battle friend has done this a bunch but I am rather skeptical of the legality.

Are you allowed to take a dedicated transport for a squad that is too big to fit in the transport?

Like a 10 man squad for a dedicated transport with capacity of 6?

Obviously you can't put the squad in the transport but he takes these type of units, leaving the squad in a terrain piece and running the vehicle around on its own.
 

Re: Dedicated Transports
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2012, 12:22:51 PM »
 

Grand Master Lomandalis

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That depends entirely on the unit entry.  If the entry has a restriction along the lines of "If a unit as X models, it may buy <vehicle>"

If no such restriction is there (such as marines and razorbacks) then there is nothing stopping a ten man unit from buying the transport.
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Re: Dedicated Transports
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2012, 12:36:50 PM »
 

Hanith

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Wait, I had thought dedicated transports needed to be deployed "with" the unit they are purchased with (No BRB with me at the moment so I can't quote pages). At least this would mean the unit needed to be in coherency with the transport at the start of the game.
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Re: Dedicated Transports
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2012, 12:50:25 PM »
 

Grand Master Lomandalis

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That is a hold over from when players would alternate deploying units in previous editions.  As players deploy their entire force now in one go, this is no longer the case.  The only restriction for Dedicated Transports can be found on page 67 of the BRB.

Global Moderator Comment And if you don't have the rules on hand, you really should not be responding to a rules question.
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Re: Dedicated Transports
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2012, 01:41:25 PM »
 

Hanith

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Found a BRB.

On 67, it says ". . . when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with . . ."

This means the DT must be able to transport the unit inside of it in order to be taken with said unit.

(When deployed, it can only (X) where X = carry the unit it was selected with)

This does not allow the option of taking a DT and deploying it empty or with other units as the only thing it can do when deployed is carry the unit it was selected with (there is no "or empty" statement). Because it cannot be deployed empty, the unit must be able to fit inside the DT in order to meet the above rule.
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Re: Dedicated Transports
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2012, 01:47:11 PM »
 

tristangood

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RAW shows that it is only that effect when deployed and doesn't specify that the unit must begin embarked within the transport, but simply that you cannot start a different unit embarked on the transport bought for a different unit

Edit: Looking over the entries for sisters of battle it says they must take units of 10 for the squad but it also says they may take "any" dedicated transport and looking at the Errata this wasn't changed either so a 10 man battle sister squad can take an immolator as a transport.  Simply they must be deployed with the tank but it is free to leave coherncy of the unit after that.

Global Moderator Comment Please don't double post. Use the modify button to add new material to an existing post.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 01:58:55 PM by Rummy »
 

Re: Dedicated Transports
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2012, 03:08:02 PM »
 

Grand Master Lomandalis

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Found a BRB.

On 67, it says ". . . when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with . . ."

This means the DT must be able to transport the unit inside of it in order to be taken with said unit.

(When deployed, it can only (X) where X = carry the unit it was selected with)

This does not allow the option of taking a DT and deploying it empty or with other units as the only thing it can do when deployed is carry the unit it was selected with (there is no "or empty" statement). Because it cannot be deployed empty, the unit must be able to fit inside the DT in order to meet the above rule.
No.  That rule is in place because it is possible to deploy inside a transport, and they are saying that if the vehicle is a dedicated transport than only the unit that the transport was bought for may be deployed within the vehicle.
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Re: Dedicated Transports
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2012, 04:31:51 PM »
 

RandomGuardsman

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 If the squad has to be under a certain size in order to take a DT and he is taking more than the squad is allowed and still purchasing it, then he is breaking a rule.

 The Imperial guard platoon can be purchased with Chimeras DT for each infantry squad. But upon deployment the ISs can be combined and the combined units are more than the pre-purchased Chimera capacity. At this point the chimeras do not simply dissappear. So they would be deployed on the table empty, and free reign for any other unit to hope in.

  I do have a small question about DT and units. I know the rules on a unit buying a DT and IC joining the unit. My question is if the IC buys the DT, can a squad not normally allowed to take a DTbe deployed with him in it, or would they have to embark on turn 1?
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Re: Dedicated Transports
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2012, 10:22:10 AM »
 

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Simply they must be deployed with the tank but it is free to leave coherncy of the unit after that.

What rule says a unit must be deployed in coherency with it's dedicated transport? Cohrency is a rule for models in one unit, a unit and it's transport are obviously two separate units able to act separately in every way.

There is no requirement written anywhere that requires them to be together at the start of or any other point in the game.

  I do have a small question about DT and units. I know the rules on a unit buying a DT and IC joining the unit. My question is if the IC buys the DT, can a squad not normally allowed to take a DTbe deployed with him in it, or would they have to embark on turn 1?

They would have to embark on turn one.

If you check the rules for ICs, you'll see that the IC joins the unit, not the other way around. These are not the same thing. If an IC joins a unit it means that (temporarily) the unit that the transport is bought for does not exist (exactly the same as guard units in platoons are no longer their for their transport should they be merged into bigger squads).

 
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Re: Dedicated Transports
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2012, 08:10:28 AM »
 

PhoenixLord1989

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Ok maybe its just me but after reading all the posts i'm confused so in case anyone is in the same boat as me I figured that I would add to recap and clarify.

So unless stated otherwise in your codex a unit can be any size and still select a Dedicated Transport because just because you reached a certain size does not take away the option to take one. If you do exceed the Transport Capacity then you will then not be able to embark in the transport till your squad reduces in size (They suffer casualties or you combat squad) Page 66 (under transport capacity 1st paragraph.)

Both the squad and the transport are separate units. FAQ-Rulebook Q:Must passengers fire at the same target that their vehicle is firing at? A: No, they are a separate unit (albeit they are temporarily co-existing with the vehicle) and so can fire at a different target.

The unit that purchased the dedicated transport is the only unit that can start in the tank, but does not have to. Any unit can then use the tank after deployment. Page 67 (bottom right corner in the box labeled dedicated transports 2nd paragraph)
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Re: Dedicated Transports
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2012, 03:28:35 AM »
 

Spacefrisian

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As far as iam aware only Chaos can exceed the transport capacity, as that has been stated in a GW errata.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2170006a_Chaos_Space_Marine_FAQ_Version_1_1_January_2012.pdf

I havent been able to find it being mentioned in the other erratas.
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Re: Dedicated Transports
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2012, 03:53:28 AM »
 

PhoenixLord1989

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As far as iam aware only Chaos can exceed the transport capacity, as that has been stated in a GW errata.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2170006a_Chaos_Space_Marine_FAQ_Version_1_1_January_2012.pdf

I havent been able to find it being mentioned in the other erratas.



http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2170014a_Space_Marine_FAQ_Version_1_3_January_2012.pdf

No where in the chaos FAQ does it say that ONLY chaos marines can do it.

I didn't look long enough on the page to see if they had a rhino example, but they have a Razorback example on page 3, 2nd FAQ on the left side. So any army as far as i am aware may take a Dedicated Transport even if they are above the max size aloud to fit. They just may not embark till they become the right size squad. They just have not asked this question in the FAQ about some armies because it really only comes up with space marines from my exp. Like I had said, just because you took X number of models does not take away the dedicated transport as an option unless it specifically says so in your codex.
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Re: Dedicated Transports
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2012, 11:35:42 AM »
 

Grand Master Lomandalis

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Spacefrisian that is wrong, and here is why.

Compare page 64 of Codex: Eldar under Guardians transport option to page 84 of the Dark Angels under tactical squads, Page 91 of the Grey Knights under Strike Squads, or page 134 of Space Marines under Tactical squad.
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Re: Dedicated Transports
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2012, 12:40:06 PM »
 

IainC

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The Grey Knights FAQ also explicitly says that units of more than 6 models may take a Razorback as a DT.

Quote
Q: Some Grey Knights squads can take a Razorback as a dedicated transport. A Razorback has a transport capacity of six models. Can you still choose this as a dedicated transport for a squad with more than six models ? (p92)
A: Yes.
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Re: Dedicated Transports
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2012, 09:44:59 PM »
 

GaleRazorwind

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The history behind this phenomenon is that older codexes tended to have restrictions on how big a squad could be and still take a DT. However, in later codexes, these limits were no longer included.

The bottom line is that you need to look at the specific entry for the unit in question. If the option to take a DT is limited by squad size, it is going to be in that unit's entry. If the entry makes no mention of squad size, then you are free to take as big of a squad as you want.
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Re: Dedicated Transports
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2012, 03:54:38 PM »
 

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The history behind this phenomenon is that older codexes tended to have restrictions on how big a squad could be and still take a DT. However, in later codexes, these limits were no longer included.

The bottom line is that you need to look at the specific entry for the unit in question. If the option to take a DT is limited by squad size, it is going to be in that unit's entry. If the entry makes no mention of squad size, then you are free to take as big of a squad as you want.

It's not just older codecies that have this restriction. Codex: Dark Eldar has the same restrictions on its transports as it always has (capacity issues) but as far as I'm aware, this is the only codex that actually has limits on it. (Templars also have the restriction as well, but they're not exactly a newer codex).
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Re: Dedicated Transports
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2012, 04:15:32 PM »
 

Hanith

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Codex: Dark Eldar has the same restrictions on its transports as it always has (capacity issues) but as far as I'm aware, this is the only codex that actually has limits on it. (Templars also have the restriction as well, but they're not exactly a newer codex).

Many books have these limitations. Codex Eldar cannot take a wave serpent for any squad that numbers above 11 models (wraithguard count as 2 for this and guardians are limited). I know the orks have a similar ruling with their transports as well.

However, despite my previous stance, it looks as if you can take dedicated transports but not have to actually field their "parent unit" embarked in said dedicated transport. I won't do this however as it just feels unintentional. Kind of like how the necron scarab swarms could spawn across 30" before the new FAQ came about. Technically you could do it per the rules, it still didn't look right though. I'm taking the same approach for dedicated transports, what with them being dedicated to transporting the units they are selected with.
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Re: Dedicated Transports
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2012, 05:57:12 PM »
 

Grand Master Lomandalis

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How is it unintentional when you have never had to deploy inside the transport in any edition of the game?
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Re: Dedicated Transports
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2012, 10:54:54 PM »
 

maturin

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However, despite my previous stance, it looks as if you can take dedicated transports but not have to actually field their "parent unit" embarked in said dedicated transport. I won't do this however as it just feels unintentional. Kind of like how the necron scarab swarms could spawn across 30" before the new FAQ came about. Technically you could do it per the rules, it still didn't look right though. I'm taking the same approach for dedicated transports, what with them being dedicated to transporting the units they are selected with.

If you take this reasoning to its ultimate conclusion, your unit could never debark, as the transports would always be "dedicated" to transporting its unit.

GML is correct.  In 4th Ed. transports were "dedicated" in the sense that they could only carry the units they were bought with.
 

Re: Dedicated Transports
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2012, 01:47:57 PM »
 

Hanith

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Technically you could do it per the rules, it still didn't look right though. I'm taking the same approach for dedicated transports, what with them being dedicated to transporting the units they are selected with.

If you take this reasoning to its ultimate conclusion, your unit could never debark, as the transports would always be "dedicated" to transporting its unit.


I did not intend to imply this was the way it has to be played (unlike my previous stance). I simply will not take a dedicated transport without loading the units into it as such a thing just doesn't sit well with me. I understand DT effectively function like Seer counsels or Courts of the Archon (according to what has amassed here); but, taking a DT without loading up the units still feels unintended by the wording of the rule (IK RAW vs RAI and whatnot). If it was not intended like this, then I'm sure it will be amended sometime in the future, and I don't want to build any strategies based on it. If it was intentional, then so be it. I'll simply keep playing how I play and shrug when others take their empty DTs.
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