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Equiping Scouts

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Equiping Scouts
« on: December 4, 2011, 07:55:36 PM »
 

Wolflord65

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Hey guys I always have a hard time deciding what to equip my scouts with, I've read many posts and seen many battles of different equiped scouts but the most popular ive seen are either they have combat blades and the sergeant has a powerfist and combi-weapon or they all have sniper rifles, the problem is i only have 5 scouts but i also have a LSS to put them in so the question i wanted to ask is if i should give them the combat blades and PF or give them shotguns and a PF w/ CW because ive heard shotguns can have some potential? any ideas will be greatly appreciated :)
« Last Edit: December 5, 2011, 12:29:35 AM by Wolflord65 »
 

Re: Equiping Scouts
« Reply #1 on: December 5, 2011, 05:55:05 AM »
 

FieryHammer

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Well, I love scouts for their versatility and try to keep them that way.  I like to run them in squads of 10 with 4 shotguns, a ML, 4 combat blades, and a c-flamer/power fist sarge with melta bombs. That way I can combat squad them and alpha strike my sarge for assassinations or to pop a stationary vehicle and leave my other 5 in some cover taking ML pot shots.  Or you can infiltrate them and use them as a speed bumps or a pretty effective CC unit on the charge, maybe break a unit early.  Conversely, you could hold them in reserve and outflank them with potential to take on most units or vehicles.

As for running 5 of them in a LSS, another versatile choice, I would go with the shotguns, c-flamer/fist/melta bombs sarg.  With only 5 guys, your not going to win many combats so go with the added firepower of the shotguns.  Throw a heavy flamer on the LSS and hopefully you'll be weakening enemy units enough in the shooting phase but not breaking them so you can actually get cover from CC and finish them in their assault turn or draw in another enemy unit to finish you off.  Either way  it is pretty effective and disruptive.
 

Re: Equiping Scouts
« Reply #2 on: December 5, 2011, 07:31:03 AM »
 

Venator101

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In contrast to what the previous poster said, I'd run them with their Combat Blades, and a combi-weapon of choice and a Power Fist on the Sergeant. I'd suggest a Combi-melta with a Heavy Flamer on the Land Speeder.

I'm quite experienced using LSS based Scouts and here's some of my thoughts;
If you have the first turn you can try the "Scout Missile" against something threatening. Using the Scout movement boost provided by the Storm means your guaranteed a first turn charge as long as your opponent doesn't steal the initiative. Use this to your advantage, destroy tough/threatening vehicles before they've even moved. Generally though, this almost always results in the Scouts and Storm being destroyed regardless if you're successful or not.

Alternatively, you can use the Storm to Outflank the Scouts and hit weaker backfield units. This is my preferred way of running them as it's less risky generally although you do risk them not showing up to turn 5. With their combat loadout (more on this in a sec) they're not actually bad fighters, and more than enough to overwhelm guard or small MEQ units. Combined with the Ld penalty from the Storm (which kicks in when you assault, don't forget this when SW and GK try to use their Counter Attack or Psychic Powers) means you'll only need to win combat by 1 and your opponent now has a rather serious Ld penalty for his morale test.

Now, the reason I'd suggest Combat Blades over Shotguns, the great combat prowess provided by the extra attacks means you're more likely to cause wounds and therefore win combat. Even with an win by 1 as I exampled above, the average marine squad will now break on average. With the Sergeant equipped with the same as his squad, you get an equal number of "attacks".

Hope this helps man.

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Re: Equiping Scouts
« Reply #3 on: December 5, 2011, 09:24:24 AM »
 

KJQ

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I second everything Venerator said.  Mine have combat blades and the Sarge has PF/Combi-melta, melta bombs. I upgrade to a meltagun on the Storm.  This is great at killing nasty enemy tanks and/or slowing down nasty assault units.  I don't bother with flamers as scouts are kinda weak anyway, so I usually target tanks not infantry with the LSS.  A couple of other uses for the LSS is to take out/tie up a Vindicare assassin on the first turn; or (if you have to reserve it) a late game outflank onto an objective.

If you're going to go with snipers, IMHO you need a 9-man unit plus Telion or else don't bother. Infiltrate them off to the side somewhere in cover and harass enemy units on/near objectives, but not so close they assault the scouts.
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Re: Equiping Scouts
« Reply #4 on: December 5, 2011, 09:35:21 AM »
 

Shas'Oink

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The question to the above would be, if you take shotguns then you can whittle numbers down BEFORE you charge the enemy... would this not have the benefit of reducing the number of enemies that you will assault, and therefore the number of return attacks?

I would have thought that this would be particularly key against units that have a higher I than the scouts... Consider it like getting the additional attack in the shooting phase rather than the assault phase??!! Against tough opponents, or those with a good armour save the scouts would still be no worse off because neither the shotgun attacks, nor combat attacks would be bypassing the saves.

The only spot where the combat weapons would be better over the shotguns would be where the scouts get drawn into a prolonged combat... OR where they are being used to bolster an existing combat (which you would be unable to shoot into first).

In that respect, I suppose you can see that the weapon load out could depend on how you would plan to use the scouts.


 

Re: Equiping Scouts
« Reply #5 on: December 5, 2011, 03:55:59 PM »
 

maturin

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As has been pointed out by both Venator and O:nk, there are pros and cons to both combat blades and/or shotguns.  In the end it probably doesn't matter too much; my advice is to go with the "rule of cool" and model what you think looks neat.  Or if you can't decide, then a 50/50 mix is good as it allows some shots before combat, and once in combat you can take your wounds on the shotgun scouts first. 

In the end the more important choice you face is what role you want the LSS/scouts to play in your armylist, and therefore how you want to kit out the LSS and the sarge.  If you want anti-infantry then go HF on the LSS and combiflamer/PF on the sarge.  If you want antitank then MM on LSS and combimelta/PF on the sarge is logical. 

If you want to run the scouts without the storm then I'd advocate snipers + ML; an infiltrating missile launcher can often get good shots at side and rear armor.  Telion will vastly increase the reliability of the ML shot; he increases the cost of the squad but confers stealth also.  Don't expect the scouts with sniper rifles to actually do anything useful.
 

Re: Equiping Scouts
« Reply #6 on: December 9, 2011, 11:14:52 PM »
 

dalaran1991

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I spent a lot of time converting my sniper scouts and using them in battle, only to find out that these noobs are best given pistol and blade , lobbed in a LSS and send flying at the enemy shooting/vehicle unit.

I cant remember how many times my sniper scout led by telion has been roasted by some deepstriking heavy flamers or the like, which are crazily popular these days. The idea is that these guys should stay back and hold objectives, but with camo cloak they cost the same as tac marines but with a fraction of their versatility. And plus they are immobile. IMO in this mech heavy scene any thing that refuses to move wont last very long.

Speaking of which, cc scouts in LSS are excellent against such low mobility targets. Against gunline army a first turn alpha strike can seriously mess up the gunline buying time for you to maneuver. And scouts are really not that bad in cc, considering their cost. Alpha strike them at enemy heavy weapons team, specialized ranged unit or backfield artillery. They do this very well. I find that they work best in pair of two.

Dont waste your points on a combi weapon that is going to miss. This increases the cost of a suicide/tarpit squad for an unnecessary function. Powerfist is good investment against both armor and staying power in cc. Get a heavy flamer for the LSS if you can. The alpha strike allows you good positioning of the flamer.

If going second, always outflank your scout. they are way too fragile to be on the map, but can wreak havoc as a disruption unit on the flanks.
 

Re: Equiping Scouts
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2011, 12:13:13 PM »
 

Ludo

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My preference for scouts is to run a LSS with 5 scouts with CCWs, a sergeant with melta bombs, and a heavy flamer on the Storm. There whole purpose is to contest an objective not to win close combat. I try to keep them as cheap as possible. I keep it reserved and then try to keep it out of the fight and save until I need to turbo boost it into range to contest an objective. I prefer the CCWs over the shotguns because their whole roll in my army is to survive the close combat for a turn or two before the game ends. I have had mostly successful experiences with them. Because they aren't packing any serious weapons they are considered low threat and left alone most of the time.
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Re: Equiping Scouts
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2011, 05:18:51 AM »
 

maturin

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Dont waste your points on a combi weapon that is going to miss. This increases the cost of a suicide/tarpit squad for an unnecessary function.

Disagree heavily here.  Remember the sarge is BS4, and as such is your best chance to crack a transport so you can charge the soft targets inside.  The LSS is only BS3, but then has the opportunity to kill a second target further away - very helpful when facing a castle of chimeras/rhinos, etc.
 

Re: Equiping Scouts
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2011, 07:39:49 AM »
 

Unleash Mayhem

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Dont waste your points on a combi weapon that is going to miss. This increases the cost of a suicide/tarpit squad for an unnecessary function.

Disagree heavily here.  Remember the sarge is BS4, and as such is your best chance to crack a transport so you can charge the soft targets inside.  The LSS is only BS3, but then has the opportunity to kill a second target further away - very helpful when facing a castle of chimeras/rhinos, etc.

Exactly. I player Salamanders, so the combi-weapon (melta) is even more reliable here. But in any case, providing you get close enough, it's the same points as a hunter killer and far more likely to do some damage.
 

Re: Equiping Scouts
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2011, 03:27:06 PM »
 

THE Dwarf

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I written a doubles list, which about to post up for thought, including scouts and a landspeeder storm
My Storm is equiped with a Heavy Flamer
And scouts combat blades and pistols with a 'Super-Sarg' - Combi-melta and Powerfist
This way they can tackle either infantry or vehicles fisrt turn - If you got first turn obviously
As I see it my Storm will scout forward 24" - gaining 4+ cover save if need be
And against infantry flame them - weakening them down - before scouts assault
Or fly to vehicle/walker and the Combi-melta and powerfist should hopefully do their job all going well (As it a Sallies army, so re-rolls with Meltas/flamers for me
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Re: Equiping Scouts
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2011, 03:27:31 PM »
 

dalaran1991

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Dont waste your points on a combi weapon that is going to miss. This increases the cost of a suicide/tarpit squad for an unnecessary function.

Disagree heavily here.  Remember the sarge is BS4, and as such is your best chance to crack a transport so you can charge the soft targets inside.  The LSS is only BS3, but then has the opportunity to kill a second target further away - very helpful when facing a castle of chimeras/rhinos, etc.

Exactly. I player Salamanders, so the combi-weapon (melta) is even more reliable here. But in any case, providing you get close enough, it's the same points as a hunter killer and far more likely to do some damage.

If you are using Vulkan than yes all melta are more reliable. However on the combi-melta I have these oppositions, assuming you agree to equip the sergeant with a powerfist:

1. If you get a destroyed result: yep everything works well, but the probability of getting such result on an AV 12 is 2/11 if I do my math right.

2. If you get a wrecked result: this is the 2nd most common thing that happens to me. Most of the time people will disembark their guys so that the vehicle (now wrecked) is put between your scouts and their models. The 2" disembarkation range plus the size of most transport often means their models will be out of assault range. Thus assaulting is especially harder to do against Rhino since they have 3 entry points. It's easier against eldar/guard but you still needs to have very good positioning in order to do so.

3. Neither of the above: most common thing that happens probability wise: well then you have a sarge with powerfist against AV 10, 3 attacks and probably automatic hits since most castle/backfield artil are immobile. Why did I even bother firing that combi-melta shot?

I feel bad about making such a big deal over a 10pts upgrade, but since I insist on putting fist on my scout sarge I make a point of not making the unit cost any more, which subsequently draws more attention. Strange, people tends to get cautious whenever they hear "combi-melta"but apparently they just assume every sarges got a big be-atch-slapping hand.

Of course, if you have the points to spare, feel free.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 03:29:35 PM by dalaran1991 »
 

Re: Equiping Scouts
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2011, 12:22:25 AM »
 

maturin

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I play Salamanders, but without Vulkan.  So I think along regular vanilla marine odds...

Actually getting the destroyed result should be your 2nd most common result (by the stats).  1,2, or 3 don't get you much.  You can get an "explodes!" on the vehicle damage table with a 5 or 6.  The vehicle is wrecked on a 4.   It's even better if the vehicle is open topped - it explodes on 4,5, or 6, and is only wrecked on a 3.

I don't think you're going to find much else out there that's going to give you a better chance at getting to the passengers inside.  Yes, it's only a 50% probability or so, but then again the whole scout/alpha strike thing is only going to work half the time anyways (if you have first turn).  If you're outflanking (thanks to second turn) then the combi-melta still gives you a very nice chance at wrecking vehicles which are no longer sitting still for your powerfist.

The scouts should always get your opponent's attention if you're alpha striking!  The key thing is to deploy them so that your opponent can't do anything about it until they've done their damage - then they'll most likely die.  So whether or not your sarge carries a combi-melta should be irrelevant, no?  If your opponent has a chance to shoot the scouts before they charge (you have second turn, probably) then your scouts should be outflanking.

As you said, it's 10 points and not a big deal either way.  I agree the powerfist is more important, if pricier.



« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 12:27:15 AM by maturin »
 

Re: Equiping Scouts
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2011, 01:45:33 PM »
 

The Gretchin

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Remember, if the vehicle gets immobilized, you'll hit it automaticly in combat. ;)
 

 


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