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Is Forgeworld trying to balance Eldar ahead of GW? (added a 6th point)

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Khorne25

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So as the title suggests, Im going to look at the Eldar units FW is producing as alternatives/supplments to existing GW models. FW models I will not discuss are the space fighters and the titans, as both are not part of the GW line and belong in Apoc games.

1) The Vyper

The Vyper is the black sheep of the Eldar, I dont think anyone could argue otherwise. Its open topped and has such low armour, a bolter could stop it. What's its role? Fast attack that can utilise heavy weapons. However, its rules for heavy weapons is still too high and quite frankly, even if it does occupy the least used part of the Force Organisation Chart, you're better off taking War Walkers with 2 Scatter Lasers.

Solution: Hornet

The Hornet is not open topped and has higher armour. It has the choice of the pulsar laser (although personally, I wouldnt put something as expensive as that on the Hornet). Heavy weapon costs are the same but I dont think anyone expected that to be changed. It starts with Star Engines, which is a big point and only costs 10 points more than the Vyper.

2) War Walker

The WW is actually a solid choice. However, its BS is standard of Eldar (which I think ought to be higher, the Eldar are not Guard after all, and you would think those extra years of life and training would have done something for their marksmanship). Weapon costs are usual and hardly surprising. Its weakness is that it occupies a HS slot which on higher point games, I really would like for a Nightspinner in conjunction with 2 bare Fire Prisms.

Solution: Wasp Assault Walker

Discarding Scout USR for Deepstrike, and in addition having Jump Jets, the Wasp is much more mobile. Armour remains the same, but the BS is bumped up to 4, which makes it much more lethal. Base cost is the same as the Vyper as well! Armour, weapon costs are the same, but thats absolutely fine. Using Wasps with Shuricans is very viable (I have had 4 games with Wasps now. I have 4 Wasps, I ran them in 2 squadrons all with Shuricans just to try them out. Another game I used Starcannons to great effect.)  Furthermore their jump jets can be used to escape, or basically charge units that have no melee weapons worthy of damaging the Wasp. The biggest point is that they are NOT HS, they occupy troop slots. As it stands, FW have added the most reliable way to add dakka to any Eldar army.

Edit: Theyre awesome with EMLs as well.

3) Fire Prism

There is nothing wrong with the Fire Prism, the sticking point is what Eldar do with that 3rd HS. 3 Fire Prisms is overkill, although nice. Most will opt for WWs or a Nightspinner, which is a brilliant weapon in its own right. However, FW decided the Eldar needed something with even more killing power.

Solution: Warp Hunter

It has a D-Cannon. What else can be said about it! Adding a different template weapon for your army is very nice, the D-Cannons are the most destructive dakka the Eldar have to date. It's a short range main battle tank with superior mobility compared to equivalents and fufills a different role to the Fire Prism which is long range.

4) Long Range Anti-Tank

The Brightlance is lacklustre for its points costs, using cost-benefit analysis its not worth taking. So what do the Eldar have against AV13-14? Fusion guns and practically nothing else, EMLs if youre damned lucky.

Examining long range infantry that take HS... Well we have the Dark Reapers - which are nice but pricey. They are MEQ killers not AV14 killers.

Solution: Shadow Spectres

These are very nice, but the big thing for me is that they have an awesome Phoenix Lord, recently released called Irrilyth. See the existing thread on him.
Anyways, their Ghostlight has insane range and AP1. If that hits, that tank is going to suffer. Although their rifles by themselves are not very long ranged.

The exarch can take an improved prism rifle (ie, the prism lance) or a haywire launcher. The launcher I cannot make much head or tail of it. It appears to be a disabling weapon to be used in support of other units, such as Fire Dragons.

5) Wraithsight

As it stands, Eldar psykers can give wraith sight to our most devastating and threatening units, the Ghost Warriors. Psykers are Farseers or Warlocks, but requires those flesh pods to babysit wraithbone war constructs.  Sure, you can add a spiritseer to Wraithguard, but what about Wraithlords? It is not a problem per se, but an inconvenience or weakness at most.

Solution: Wraithseer

Basically the spiritstone of a Warlock in a wraithbone construct, the Wraithseer is a HQ unit and is devastating. Althought it requires another HQ choice to go with it, it is in its own right more powerful than the Avatar. His psychic powers are truly awe inspiring too.

6) GEQ units

We currently have the Defenders, which are a reasonable choice, but have short ranged Shuriken Catapults, and Stormies which most will take because of their cheap Special Weapons (especially the Flamers).

Solution: Corsairs

The rules for these have not come out yet, but judging from what arrives in the conversion kits and the photos on the FW website, Corsairs will have access to jump packs, flamers, fusion guns, and las blasters. The lasblasters appear to be a remedy to the shuriken catapult's dire range. Many would argue that Guardians would be better off with Lasblasters - well here is your solution. People who use Stormies just for their guns will be glad to see the Corsair models have Special Weapon choices. Discarding the redundant melee and keeping ranged weapons, you have a mobile shooty squad. Corsairs can also take a EML or Shurican (hypothesising).

Conclusion:

Until we get a new codex, FW is filling the niches which will all culminate in IA11. Experimental rules and the new models can be found on the Forgeworld website. Check them out ;)
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 11:24:08 AM by Khorne25 »


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Re: Is Forgeworld trying to balance Eldar ahead of GW?
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2011, 10:37:01 AM »
 

Dryad

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I really like that analysis.

I'm sure every single one of those points was discussed around the table at Forge World at some point or another. I doubt the intention was to balance Eldar ahead of a codex release. But when you are developing something, you want to make something that fills a hole so that buyers will have an interest.

The only similarity I disagree with is the Fire Prism/Warp Hunter. The Warp Hunter is not designed for more killing power, I think it is designed for yet another hole that was missing in the Eldar strategy. The real strength of the Warp Hunter is in the Aether Rift, which makes the tank a Fast Skimmer 'Hellhound' with D-awesomeness. Nothing else in the Eldar range even come close to that damage potential with that sort of maneuver, except maybe 5 Wrathguard jumping out of a Serpent and shooting. But no cover saves from the Warp Hunter means lots of dead stuff.

So ya, Prism and Warp Hunter are totally different. One is close range, the other is long range. They are both in my tourney list and I love them dearly.
 

Re: Is Forgeworld trying to balance Eldar ahead of GW? (added a 6th point)
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2011, 01:00:02 PM »
 

Arquarian

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Yes, I agree a great analysis.

I'm waiting with baited breath for IA11 and from there on in the New V6 codex.....

things are looking up for our doomed race...
This really isn't some kind of conspiracy ;).
 

Re: Is Forgeworld trying to balance Eldar ahead of GW? (added a 6th point)
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2011, 02:11:31 PM »
 

Lachdonin

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While i agree, generally, with the analysis, i dissagree with the premise. Nothing about Forgeworld is about  'ballance', it is the living embodyment of the 'Rule of Cool'. While some units can be taken as comparisons to extant Codex units, i don't feel you can draw any conclusions about the direction that the Eldar army well be taking for the next release.
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Re: Is Forgeworld trying to balance Eldar ahead of GW? (added a 6th point)
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2011, 05:48:04 PM »
 

Aireoth

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I would agree that some of it is rule of cool (the winged guard, warp tank and jumping walkers) I think that the premise is accurate for the Hornet and shadow. The Wraithseer seems more like a test unit along the concept of a Wraith HQ (and potentially wraith army).

Eldar lack good long range AT, especially in the Armor 12+ range, as we have nothing strength 7 to deal with a transport run, we are lacking. It can be seen when just about every competitive build has to take dragons in a serpent and essentially sacrifice them to kill high armor vehicles.

Brightlances are too unreliable from my experience due to their high cost and Eldar Ballistic Skill, it often isn't worth trying to fortune something just to get the lance to hit (let alone pen).
Shadows seek to solve this.

Vyper's are little more then expensive cannon fodder, and due to low return for the cost are often ignored (which amusingly enough can make them worth taking!)
Hornets seek to solves this.

While I agree that some of the 'extra' rules are just for cool effect, once those rules are distilled down to something more GW standard I think you end up with a decent, regular unit, that needs a point rebalance.
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Re: Is Forgeworld trying to balance Eldar ahead of GW? (added a 6th point)
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2011, 06:55:06 AM »
 

Arquarian

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While i agree, generally, with the analysis, i dissagree with the premise.

I think you're reading too much into the statement. I agree that it is unlikely the Forgeworlds will is to balance the codex list, in this sense you are right But their models do balance the list as the OP outlines. Weather this is the intent of FW or not is irrelevant pragamatically this is what has happened.

Eldar lack good long range AT, especially in the Armor 12+ range, as we have nothing strength 7 to deal with a transport run, we are lacking.

You have a point but the Bright Lance is probably the best anti AV14 gun in the game. The let down is the BS of our guardians, but this is countered by having a lot of options to twin link. I will agree though that at present the BL is over priced. In the AV12+ region I understand your point but we have the mobility to get round to exposed rear armour, which is normally lower in this area and you can't deny we can sport an awful lot of cheap S6 weapons....

This really isn't some kind of conspiracy ;).
 

Re: Is Forgeworld trying to balance Eldar ahead of GW? (added a 6th point)
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2011, 07:51:12 AM »
 

Katamari Damacy

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we can sport an awful lot of S6 weapons....

Fixed that for you  ;)

The BL is a good weapon yeah, but easily 10 points too expensive for the guardians. Don't even get me started on the pricetag for the TL-BLs on a Serpent or Wraithlords.

While it may not have been intended to balance Eldar, those xperimental rules sure gave us a hint what we can expect for the new Codex. Lots of shiny new things, that may or may not prove to be useful.

It's funny how much better my regular Eldar army got, just by adding a single Warp Hunter.

I hope the trend continues.
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Re: Is Forgeworld trying to balance Eldar ahead of GW? (added a 6th point)
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2011, 02:49:18 PM »
 

Spirit of Kurnous

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main reason stuff is overpriced is we are a 4th edition codex no matter what they say and our stuff was priced accordingly. hence the overprice wave serpants. under 4th ed, they worked, under 5th nowhere near worth the points.
the same can be said through alot of our army.
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Re: Is Forgeworld trying to balance Eldar ahead of GW? (added a 6th point)
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2011, 03:02:07 PM »
 

Aireoth

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I think the general point is somewhat agreed on. FW is seeking to address 'problems' with older codexs, currently Eldar.

Honestly I hope they keep it up, the points may be a bit off, and the ongoing debate over "rule of cool", but the reality is, we need a content delivery system that allows for faster updates to less competitive codexs. Simply put, the wait 2+ years for your codex to be updated to the new rules (sometimes even skiping an edition change!) is unnecessary and borderline unacceptable in the modern world. Small updates, tweaks and new units can be introduced on the fly, while waiting for the new, mostly tested (there will always be bugs), codex to be released.

I hope FW goes in this direction, and it looks like they are with official 40k stamps starting to pop up.

That being said, I hope they still have their crazy units, under experimental rules of course.
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Re: Is Forgeworld trying to balance Eldar ahead of GW? (added a 6th point)
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2011, 09:53:18 AM »
 

THE Dwarf

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I so hope some of the FW models are put into Craftworld Eldar's next Codex

Although a mate of mine told me I was looking at the Eldar Codex with 'blinkers'
As I have NEVER taken War Walkers, or Vyper Jetbikes
Becuase of the AV 10 all around and being open topped
But mate said

Why dont you take Vypers - three single ones with Bright Lance's no one gonna notice them if you got Wraithlords on table
or
War Walkers, out flanking with Shruiken Catapults


But I still feel they will get picked off easy as
Squad of Marines can take out either of them with ease

And points value for Bright Lance I feel is over pointed now I feel
For what it does
Most of the time hitting on 4+
And Lance rule, I dont know about any one else, but how often do you see anything on table now with AV 13 or 14 on table
I have only seen a few Landraiders, Predators and Vindicators on battlefields recently

But going back to the IA11 book, so hope it just a teaser of what could be in the new Craftworld Eldar book
I mean, just take a look at the Guard Codex when it was revised and updated for 5th Edition
The amount of tank varients they got which previously were only availauble to Apocolypse forces
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Re: Is Forgeworld trying to balance Eldar ahead of GW? (added a 6th point)
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2011, 01:23:29 PM »
 

Arquarian

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we can sport an awful lot of S6 weapons....
Fixed that for you  ;)

Eh? you don't think the shuriken cannon in cheap? the scatter laser is also not that expensive.

we digress back on topic...

IA11 is now out and only because its Christmas am I contemplating buying this tome of Eldar goodness (I also collect space wolves so this is a double boon for me...)  But from looking at the index and from what others have said re variants etc it looks as this list is (unexpectedly) both an expansion and a precursor of what we can expect in the future re the direction of the Eldar.

As for bringing balance to the force to the list we'll have to see for ourselves how this works  :D

@ The Dwarf
War walkers have been a staple of every army I've used in the present edition of the rules. AV10 they may be but I find that one of them always finishes the game.

Vypers I find too expensive and I personally believe Bright Lances are wasted on Vypers as they have the manoeuvrability to find weaker side / rear armour making the lance a waste of points in these circumstances. If you don't face many AV13 / AV14 then great! However some us face some pretty completive competition with Land raiders and Vindicators a plenty...
 



This really isn't some kind of conspiracy ;).
 

Re: Is Forgeworld trying to balance Eldar ahead of GW? (added a 6th point)
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2011, 02:21:26 PM »
 

Spirit of Kurnous

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war walkers are useful and something I have used but only cheap options - 120pts buys you 18 str6 shots. guided thats pretty awesome and until somebody has that happen to them they tend to ignore your walkers.
I would like to see IA stuff come across, jumping walkers would be great. also vipers definately need something doing with them when you compare them to the marine attack bike which is so much better.
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Re: Is Forgeworld trying to balance Eldar ahead of GW? (added a 6th point)
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2011, 05:35:47 AM »
 

Lazarus

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Quote
You have a point but the Bright Lance is probably the best anti AV14 gun in the game.

No. It is not the best anti AV14 gun in the game.



Nice write up. All the new Forgeworld stuff is pretty awesome and I've had a chance to see it in action. It's a shame I'm not keeping my Eldar although this new stuff sure tempts me pretty hard.
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Re: Is Forgeworld trying to balance Eldar ahead of GW? (added a 6th point)
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2011, 05:39:10 AM »
 

THE Dwarf

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@Arquarian

I think I may actually invest in some WarWalkers
I have one half built some where
So when I got spare money's I may invest
As people have said it be scary, possible geetting 24 S6 shots (2x S.Lasers) walking on from the side during the game
But as I said, and got pointed out by a mate, I got blinkers on sadly at moment
But I may incest, thanks Arquarian
 :D
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Re: Is Forgeworld trying to balance Eldar ahead of GW? (added a 6th point)
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2011, 12:54:35 PM »
 

Arquarian

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War Walkers are really one of the best uits I think we have. 2 outflanking with shuricannons are cheap as chips and can cause a real pain to the enemies backfield.

But I may incest, thanks Arquarian

I won't tell your sister  ;)

This really isn't some kind of conspiracy ;).
 

Re: Is Forgeworld trying to balance Eldar ahead of GW? (added a 6th point)
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2011, 04:10:03 AM »
 

Kezef

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Forgeworld has been a testing ground for GW for some time now. Just look at the forgeworld units made it into the latest Guard codex.

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