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New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion

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New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« on: November 1, 2011, 05:30:54 PM »
 

Gutstikk

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Fast Attack Discussion:

This thread is reserved for discussion of the 2011 Necron Codex Fast Atack units. Please discuss other Force Organization entries in their appropriate threads. Discussion of dedicated transports can be placed either alongside the unit (where appropriate) or in the Necron Vehicle Discussion thread.
« Last Edit: November 4, 2011, 10:49:36 PM by Gutstikk »
 

Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #1 on: November 5, 2011, 10:42:11 PM »
 

headfirst

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Destroyers now... wow. Slightly cheaper, can fight their way out of combat a little better, but shorter range. The new gauss cannons are going to be interesting, haven't playtested them enough. My destroyerspam tactic of old won't be as effective against those annoying orks.

What are people's opinions on mixed squads? Less slots, but the new destroyers are worse against light vehicles. There is a neat bonus trick though; due to how RP works, you can choose what type of destroyer comes back on each roll, as long as it died that turn.
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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #2 on: November 6, 2011, 12:25:33 AM »
 

Galef

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I think Destroyers took the biggest hit from the nerf bat.  The Gauss cannon has 12" less range, 1 less Str, & 1 less shot than before.  The change from jetbike to jump infantry hurt a little, but not nearly as bad as the gauss cannon.

So what did we get in return?  10 pts cheaper & AP3.  Not worth it in my opinion.

Heavy Destroyers pretty much stayed the same (except the jetbike thing).  Now that they don't compete with the othet Heavies, I would consider taking them.
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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #3 on: November 6, 2011, 04:18:09 AM »
 

WisdomLS

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They may have been nerffed a bit but the switch to FA is great, a solid anti-heavy infantry or vehicle unit in fast attack is great, they were better as jetbikes but are still pretty good.

I really like the Tomb blades for their points and the wraiths are really deadly and still quite survivable plus whip coils are very useful for the army.

I think the best unit of a really good FA selection are the scarabs, I think most armies are gonna be running a unit or two of these and can see them eating heavy mech armies for lunch.
 

Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #4 on: November 6, 2011, 09:02:05 AM »
 

Gutstikk

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I'm excited for the new Destroyer rules. In the previous book I never felt the AP on the guns made them worth fielding compared to other, cheaper, more resilient units that brought more to the table and almost the same firepower. Now? I see them forcing some tough choices on enemies knocked out of transports - deploy behind the vehicle or in the wreck for cover and hang tight, or drop on the closer side hoping to assault and risk vaporization.

Combining types was a good move too. That'll take loads of pressure of putting them onto the field. On the other hand, I've always loved scarabs, and it'll be interesting to see if I want less teams now that the destroyers have a more focused impact on enemy units, or if their new rules make me want even more scarabs.
 

Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #5 on: November 6, 2011, 05:59:36 PM »
 

NightMoor

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Just got finished my first game with the new rules some thoughts:

- Destroyers are still solid enough after the seemingly-brutal redesign though they are definitely powered down. *Rumours were a lie - you CAN take units of 5*. I think people will be much more likely to field Heavy Destroyers now too. The regular Destroyers are basically a way to deal with Feel No Pain things (which are increasingly more likely) without having to invest zillion points, plus you can throw a Heavy Destroyer or two into a unit in order to have some anti-vehicle options rather easily. I'd say despite my initial reservations they are decent.

- Scarabs are extremely solid and will be consistently useful. Spyders are incredibly efficient too and pump out extra scarabs with incredible ease - keep in mind that unengaged Spyders can add Scarabs to units which are *in combat*...nasty. Max Scarab squads will be an excellent tie-up and combat support unit and small units (3-5) will be useful as vehicle annoyance. Personally I think a squad of 10 is a must-have.

- Wraiths are extremely playable and useful now. Rending, wound-allocation shenanigans on up to three models, ignoring terrain and most importantly takeable in units up to 6 - very solid. They do not get Reanimation Protocols but are much more survivable against small arms fire (their achilles' heel previously). I could see a full unit of 6 being useful in any army, you could probably build an army themed around them reasonably well too.
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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #6 on: November 6, 2011, 06:05:45 PM »
 

Changeyname

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The regular Destroyers are basically a way to deal with Feel No Pain things (which are increasingly more likely) without having to invest zillion points
Just wondering what you've seen that I've missed that'll let them deal with FNP units any more than anything else?

I can't see anything in their weaponry or rules that'll make a mockery of FNP...  :-\
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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #7 on: November 6, 2011, 06:39:46 PM »
 

NightWolf

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The destroyer's gauss cannons have low enough AP to ignore FNP.  I think that is what Nightmoor was getting at.
 

Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #8 on: November 6, 2011, 06:43:00 PM »
 

Changeyname

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Except that's not how FNP works at all, if that is what he's talking about have another read of the FNP rules and/or one of the Rules Forum thread explaining how FNP can be ignored..... the destroyers AP doesn't qualify I'm afraid  :-\

If it's something else please explain away :)
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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #9 on: November 6, 2011, 07:54:50 PM »
 

NightWolf

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Touche.  I just double checked and you are correct changeyname.  In that case the only FNP that destroyers will be ignoring is that of units with only toughness of 3 (which really only effects DE, guard, or 'nids and only under specific circumstances).  However, despite the nerf, I do think that destroyers are solid, albiet in a more situational manner.

I'm also curious to see how well Tomb Blade's do when put down on the table top.
 

Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #10 on: November 6, 2011, 08:43:24 PM »
 

NightMoor

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I should have been more specific - Any MEQ equivalents or similar that have Feel No Pain shy of Terminators will no longer get two saves against Destroyer guns, they'll only get a single one. The odds of killing a Blood Angel squad member under FnP go from a dismal 1/6 to 1/2 (no cover) and 1/4 (cover) because of the AP 3 gun.
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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #11 on: November 6, 2011, 11:04:18 PM »
 

Tomb Spyder

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I really like what they did with the Destroyers.  Being able to mix in the heavies with them and moving to fast attack really is nice.  Although I dislike the nerfs to the unit, I have to say this is a good unit for putting the hurt on MEQs unfortunate enough to have left their vehicles.  For how "shooty" this army is going to be, I don't see them being a big priority for the enemy either.  Park them behind some terrain and wait, IMO.

As for the Wraiths, they look great but once again the low initiative really gets me.  I understand the Necrons are not a CC army, but that doesn't mean we don't have a few elite-type units who do specialize in it.

As for the Scarabs.....I don't think I will be able to send enough of these at my enemies tanks!  These little buggers would scare the hell out of me if I were Marines.  What do you do?  You can blow all your heavy fire into them if you want...that just keeps the fire off my Doomsday Arcs!  Or you can ignore them knowing your AV14 will turn into a Rhino real fast.  These things are probably the sole reason, after reading the codex, that I am going to stay playing the Necrons.  I am not overly impressed with 90% of the units in the codex, but when adding these things into the mix, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
 

Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #12 on: November 7, 2011, 03:01:46 AM »
 

pudd

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In that case the only FNP that destroyers will be ignoring is that of units with only toughness of 3

Had the strength of the weapon not changed, you would have been correct.

Wraiths: I can see a lot of them being upgraded to having warp coils so they kinda retain their decent initiative.

Destroyers: Always liked destroyers. They have gotten better and worse in different areas but overall I dont think I can complain about them given their new points cost.

Scarabs: Big buff from last codex I think. Will be running atleast 1 full squad whenever I can.

Tomb blades: Not sure about them, our fast attack has some nice options and I'm unsure if there is room for them. A nice tactic for annoying people as a distraction unit maybe is to upgrade them to have shadowlooms and then go turbo boosting with them. Just hope the enemy don't have some sort of flame weapon because the tomb blades don't have a great save.
 

Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #13 on: November 7, 2011, 07:54:33 AM »
 

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Personally I think the reduction in range of the destroyers is probably about right. It will also encourage them to get in at the enemy but gives the enemy a chance to fight back too... They were way too overpowered against things like Tau and Orks before... now they have shifted focus a little more towards MEQ which is no real bad thing considering the other weapon availabilities throughout the army.

Some people are complaining about the loss of S from the cannons, but to be honest you no longer NEED them to be doing anti transport duty... as there are a plethora of alternatives that can now do this. Including of course the scarabs themselves! (these look awesome on paper by the way and they would scare the bejesus out of me too!)

In short, the destroyers are (another) example of a unit that is no more clearly defined within the expanded Necron unit selections. I've already said it once in another thread, but the trick is NOT to compare them to the old rules, but look at them in teh context of this current codex and the other units that you now have access to. They do things other units can't... and other units can do things they they used to be able to!


 

Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #14 on: November 7, 2011, 08:42:44 AM »
 

Sirdrasco

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Wraiths with a low initiative will probable best be run with whips to ensure they go first, especially against hi-int armies.

To me the range reduction kind of hurt destroyers, but a mixed unit of 5 can still put down a lot of hurt.

Over all it looks like we're a midrange army now, gotta close to dish it out.

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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #15 on: November 7, 2011, 11:43:45 AM »
 

Kaiju Senso

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Destroyers can never negate Feel No Pain, their gun's strength isn't high enough for Instant Death on T3 or higher, nor is the AP low enough and it does not say "no armor saves may be taken" or anything to that effect. Thus I feel those comments should be removed as to not confuse any new players...

About the Wraiths. I had a great time with them in my last game. I used 3 with Whip Coils obviously. They are a necessary upgrade to keep the small unit size from getting wiped out in combat before they can strike. I don't see the point in the Transdimensional Beamer because of the short range and being a heavy weapon. The Particle casters are a maybe because they are cheap. They don't add a close combat attack right? So basically it's to get another wound in before you assault. Because of this unit, I was able to tie up two Slaanesh Demon Princes and a Chaos Dreadnought (all in a single, multiple combat) and eat them with the help of my C'Tan shard. It took two turns but the invulnerable save of the Wraiths took the return hits no problem.
 

Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #16 on: November 7, 2011, 01:49:21 PM »
 

NightMoor

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They don't add a close combat attack right? So basically it's to get another wound in before you assault.

They are a Pistol weapon, so you would get the bonus.
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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #17 on: November 7, 2011, 01:55:28 PM »
 

Benis

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They are still only one pistol each and since the Wraiths do not have a starting close combat weapon you are still left out of the bonus attack for being equipped with two close combat weapons.
 

Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #18 on: November 7, 2011, 02:17:27 PM »
 

NightMoor

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I always understood that each model is counted as having a basic close combat weapon, as stated under "normal close combat weapons" on pg 42. Since it mentions things like bayonets, combat blades, etc - ie.* things which are not actually stated in a unit's wargear entry* alongside stuff like chainswords then as far as I read it all models are assumed to be making their close combat attacks with a close combat weapon. Only things which are clearly two-handed (ex. rifle butt, same page) are not combinable for the dual-weapon bonus attack. Am I not seeing something here?

Edit: to add to the overall discussion, I think 6x Whip Coil Wraiths with a Destroyer Lord are going to be nice spiritual successor to the old Wraith Wing armies of the past as the Coils can help the Destroyer Lord get his attacks in first against other nasty combat characters, which helps alleviate the fact that he has no options for an invul save.
« Last Edit: November 7, 2011, 02:25:14 PM by NightMoor »
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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #19 on: November 7, 2011, 02:58:48 PM »
 

Benis

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So by that logic Space Marines should have an additional attack since they are equipped with pistols? No, what it states is that those weapons are assumed to not grant any additional bonus, not that they count like a close combat weapon for this purpose. You cannot assume that a unit has equipment that it doesn't has.
 

 


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