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Some Tau special rules and wargear I've been working on

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Some Tau special rules and wargear I've been working on
« on: August 7, 2011, 01:05:40 PM »
 

Benis

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So I have put some work on a Tau revamp ('Tis apparently is the season for those) and thought I would throw out some of my wargear and special rules ideas for review and see if there are any flaws or combinations that might be worth changing. The fluff texts are quite lame I know but they do add some colour to each item.

We start with two special rules which will apply widely through out the list:

Tactical Withdrawal
Tau combat doctrine stress the importance of not letting the enemy catch the Fire Warriors in bloody hand to hand, in some situations it is more important to withdraw than stand and take the fight.
When an enemy unit launches an assault against an unengaged Tau unit that is not falling back, before any moves are made, the Tau unit can choose to pass a leadership test, if successful it immediately falls back in a straight line away from the assaulting unit. If the enemy unit cannot reach the unit upon its new position it may still move D6” towards the retreating Tau unit. If the enemy unit still manages to reach the Tau unit the normal rules for assaulting a unit that falls back applies with the exception that the Tau unit may not make use of Photon grenades.

Advanced Weaponry
Tau tank technology is highly advanced and their weapon systems even more so.
Tau vehicles count Strength 5 weapons as defensive weapons.

Some other special rules:

Concentrated Fusillade
The pulse rifle is the Fire Warriors prime weaponry, through their exceptionally skill with it they are capable to combine the pulses of several rifles into a stronger stream making them even more effective against armour.
Fire Warrior Teams and Honour Guard that remained stationary during the Movement phase and chooses to use rapid fire resolves their shots at Strength 6. (Note: I added a change to the pulse rifle so that it can be used as either heavy 2 or rapid fire.)

Selfless Servant

During combat drones first and foremost are meant to protect their owner, if need be by their own destruction.
When allocating wounds all drones may take two wounds each before any wounds are allocated to any other model in their unit.

And here is some wargear, mostly meant for Commanders:

Command Node
The Command Node allows the Commander to direct the Fire Warriors under his command much more precisely making sure that no energy is wasted due to hesitation of friendly fire.
Tau units within 12” of the Commander will ignore the cover saves their targets gains from intervening friendly non-vehicle Tau models.

Positional Relay
By directly feeding positional data to the rest of the Cadre the Commander can make sure that the right support arrives on time.
As long as the model with the positional relay is on the table you may choose to re-roll a single reserve roll, select which one when all reserve rolls have been made.

Tactical Target Selector

Helping the team leader to process ballistic data faster than normal the Tactical Target Selector allows for much more efficient target selection.
A model equipped with a tactical target selector can forgo shooting during the shooting phase to allow its unit  to split its fire and fire at two different targets instead of one. Simply declare which models will fire at each target and then carry on using the normal rules. The unit still resolves all its shots simultaneously.

Advanced Multi-Lock
A complex combined version of a multi-tracker and a target lock, the advanced multi-lock makes full effect of the Commander's arsenal.
A model equipped with an advanced multi-lock may fire all its weapon systems during the Shooting phase and may target each at a different unit.

Drone Nexus
A larger version of the drone controller the drone nexus is capable of sustaining more than twice the amount of drones to a normal controller.
The drone nexus functions exactly like a drone controller but the wearer may be accompanied by up to four drones instead of the regular two. If a model within 12” of the drone nexus with a drone controller is removed, do not remove any surviving drones but immediately move them into unit coherency with the model equipped with the drone nexus, from this point on they are part of that model's accompanying drones, the Drone Nexus carrier can be joined by any amount of drones in this way.

Strategic Coordination Server

By feeding real-time data through out the Cadre the strategic coordination server makes sure that the different airborne elements can arrive in accurate, close formations.
If the army contains a model equipped with a strategic coordination server any units in reserve with the capacity to deep strike can be grouped together with other units capable of deep striking into one or several groups during deployment. Each group will roll a single reserve roll for the whole group. When such a group becomes available they must always deploy via deep strike. Any units deployed within 6” of the first deep striking unit in the same group do not need to roll for scatter.

Drone Warhead
The missile contains a small drone intellect that guides the missile to its destination, avoiding intervening debris.
Any successful cover saves taken against missile pods and seeker missiles must be re-rolled.

Lastly, some vehicle wargear:

AI Auto-Protocols
When the vehicle crew becomes inactive due to damaged sustained the AI auto-protocols take over and searches through the battle data banks for suitable targets.
If the vehicle has suffered any Crew Shaken or Crew Stunned damage results it may still fire its weapons in the Shooting phase, following the normal rules and limits of shooting. In addition the target unit must have at least one markerlight token, remove one token for each weapon the vehicle fires at a target.

Intelligence Relay

The Pathfinder teams prime goal is intelligence and data retrieval, the intelligence relay feeds any gathered data quickly and accurately to the rest of the Cadre, making most use of the pathfinders' position.
As long as the Pathfinder unit is within 6” of their Devilfish Troop Carrier (including being transported) all enemy units within 12” of the Devilfish receive a single Markerlight token at the start of the Shooting phase, alternatively the Relay can be used to increase the information gained from the Markerlights in which case no tokens are generated at the start of the Shooting phase but the Pathfinders’ Markerlights generate two tokens instead of one so long as the Pathfinder unit is within 6” of their Devilfish Troop Carrier. However, this extra computer and tracking devices means that the Devilfish can only transport 8 models, instead of the normal 12.

Any thoughts or comments are appreciated but I'm not overly concerned with points at the moment more with the actual function and application of the ideas.


 

Re: Some Tau special rules and wargear I've been working on
« Reply #1 on: August 7, 2011, 01:54:41 PM »
 

Wyddr

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I generally like the ideas. They seem within the spirit of the Tau and none of them seem, upon first glance, to be overly powerful. Some specific comments/questions:

Tactical Withdrawal: I like it, except I feel it's only fair that the fleeing Tau unit, if caught, is run down and killed automatically, a la Fantasy. I don't like giving them free run away moves *and* the capacity to fight in close combat. A little too 'best of both worlds'-y, for me.

Advanced Weaponry: Totally fine with me. I can hear Eldar players howling somewhere far off in the distance, but screw 'em.  ;)

Concentrated Fusilade: I don't quite follow this rule's rationale. Why would them being good with a weapon actually make the weapon hit harder? I would counter with the following: change to either 're-roll all to-wound and penetration rolls' OR 'gains the Tank Hunters special rule'. The net effect would be similar to the rule you describe, but I feel would make more sense from a fluff perspective.

Selfless Servant: Love it.

Command Node, Positional Relay, Tactical Target Selector, Advanced Multi-Lock, Drone Nexus, Strategic Coordination Server, Drone Warhead: All pretty decent, to varying degrees. The Positional Relay is a little bit weak, but I suppose if one were to make it correspondingly cheap, no one could complain.

AI Auto-Protocols: Dig it.

Intelligence Relay: I like this because we finally have a reason to have Pathfinders hang out with their Devilfish. I don't like it because my pathfinders live short enough lives as it is, and this makes them even more of a priority for long-ranged death and destruction. Were this coordinated with a revamp of pathfinders themselves, I would like it more. As it is, it looks like a wonderful piece of kit I expect to promptly lose on turn 1.
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Re: Some Tau special rules and wargear I've been working on
« Reply #2 on: August 7, 2011, 02:28:29 PM »
 

Benis

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Thanks for the feed back!

Tactical Withdrawal: I like it, except I feel it's only fair that the fleeing Tau unit, if caught, is run down and killed automatically, a la Fantasy. I don't like giving them free run away moves *and* the capacity to fight in close combat. A little too 'best of both worlds'-y, for me.

Hmm, it might be more suitable but the unit already looses some since it will have to regroup in the following turn. Would you have it apply to any other assaulting units during the same phase or only the one which triggered the Tactical Withdrawal response in the Tau unit?

Advanced Weaponry: Totally fine with me. I can hear Eldar players howling somewhere far off in the distance, but screw 'em.  ;)

Yeah, unlike Eldar Tau doesn't have single weapon on a vehicle that is less than five so I feel it is more warranted. It also fits the Tau to get an exception here.

Concentrated Fusilade: I don't quite follow this rule's rationale. Why would them being good with a weapon actually make the weapon hit harder? I would counter with the following: change to either 're-roll all to-wound and penetration rolls' OR 'gains the Tank Hunters special rule'. The net effect would be similar to the rule you describe, but I feel would make more sense from a fluff perspective.

The rationale is one of game mechanics. I want Fire Warriors to have a light anti-mech capability without adding special weapons so by reducing the fire capacity and movement the team gains further strength to their shots which makes them more effective against armour 11 and 12. The fluff behind it is that by timing the pulses into tighter combined streams the effects of the impacts gets greater but reduces the overall output of the unit, maybe not the most logical but like I said the fluff texts are lame at the moment. ;)

Intelligence Relay: I like this because we finally have a reason to have Pathfinders hang out with their Devilfish. I don't like it because my pathfinders live short enough lives as it is, and this makes them even more of a priority for long-ranged death and destruction. Were this coordinated with a revamp of pathfinders themselves, I would like it more. As it is, it looks like a wonderful piece of kit I expect to promptly lose on turn 1.

Yes, the reason for this rule is to reward the Tau player for playing fluffy with their Pathfinders. Pathfinders are at the moment a support unit to Fire Warrior teams in my list, you can add a team to the Fire Warriors similar to how you can add a rhino to a Tactical squad. They will be prime targets but I don't know how to work around that other than to spread out similar capacities in other units (Stealthsuit teams and Skyrays for example).
 

Re: Some Tau special rules and wargear I've been working on
« Reply #3 on: August 7, 2011, 03:02:28 PM »
 

Rummy

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The rationale is one of game mechanics. I want Fire Warriors to have a light anti-mech capability without adding special weapons so by reducing the fire capacity and movement the team gains further strength to their shots which makes them more effective against armour 11 and 12. The fluff behind it is that by timing the pulses into tighter combined streams the effects of the impacts gets greater but reduces the overall output of the unit, maybe not the most logical but like I said the fluff texts are lame at the moment. ;) 

Yeah, we're going to need a bit less Ghostbusters in the text by the end.  ;) A change I'd suggest would be to require two or more teams to combine their fire to get the effect. So two teams gets S6, perhaps three teams get S7 and so on. Slightly more difficult to achieve with the same net effect.

The Advanced Multi-Lock is quite close to a piece of Tau wargear in Deathwatch. The exception being mult-target rather than single-target. Since this is Commander only equipment, does it work with the AFP as well?
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Re: Some Tau special rules and wargear I've been working on
« Reply #4 on: August 7, 2011, 03:23:10 PM »
 

Benis

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Yeah, we're going to need a bit less Ghostbusters in the text by the end.  ;)

Well any ideas for an explanation would be good. Basically I wanted it to be more of a question of technique and skill and less one of weapon technology.

A change I'd suggest would be to require two or more teams to combine their fire to get the effect. So two teams gets S6, perhaps three teams get S7 and so on. Slightly more difficult to achieve with the same net effect.

Sounds a bit complicated though and can create some strange situations with a single or few surviving Fire Warriors giving a huge boost to one or two other units. It would probably often lead to overkill situations where fire could have been spent better elsewhere which doesn't really feel that Tau. My idea may require some extra work though but is the idea of creating a light anti-mech capacity in Fire Warrior teams generally approved of?

The Advanced Multi-Lock is quite close to a piece of Tau wargear in Deathwatch. The exception being mult-target rather than single-target. Since this is Commander only equipment, does it work with the AFP as well?

I see no rule or fluff reasons why it shouldn't work for the AFP, do you refer to the "may not benefit from markerlight" thing? Would you care to expand on the comments about Deathwatch, I haven't read that book and it sounded interesting.
 

Re: Some Tau special rules and wargear I've been working on
« Reply #5 on: August 7, 2011, 04:02:16 PM »
 

Rummy

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Sounds a bit complicated though and can create some strange situations with a single or few surviving Fire Warriors giving a huge boost to one or two other units. It would probably often lead to overkill situations where fire could have been spent better elsewhere which doesn't really feel that Tau. My idea may require some extra work though but is the idea of creating a light anti-mech capacity in Fire Warrior teams generally approved of?

I would limit the strength boost to S7 at max though. Fire Warriors should not be blasting through Land Raiders for example. The Epic rules for Tau have something similar where supporting formations add a bonus. I'm just not a fan of an auto power where a single unit gains an advantage by standing still. Perhaps adding that the ability only works for a unit at greater than 50% strength?

Would you care to expand on the comments about Deathwatch, I haven't read that book and it sounded interesting.

The Deathwatch book Mark of the Xenos has Commander Flamewing. Flamewing has some funky commander only tech such as the multi-tracker that allows him to fire everything at a single target, a command and control node that's DNI and doesn't require active thought to use, and a shield generator that has a chance of returning damage to hand to hand opponent. Flamewing is perfectly happy to work with other races as long as the hurt is put on the Tyranids.
« Last Edit: August 7, 2011, 04:04:31 PM by Barr'el O'Rum »
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Re: Some Tau special rules and wargear I've been working on
« Reply #6 on: August 7, 2011, 04:09:32 PM »
 

Benis

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I would limit the strength boost to S7 at max though. Fire Warriors should not be blasting through Land Raiders for example. The Epic rules for Tau have something similar where supporting formations add a bonus. I'm just not a fan of an auto power where a single unit gains an advantage by standing still.

I agree that the boost shouldn't let them blast apart heavy tanks. The thing with combining units to create massed effects, while it might be a good way to represent the bonus it does entail a level of complexity that isn't common in 40k which is why I hesitate for such a solution. In the current rule they also have to sacrifice rate of fire, not only be standing still, it is still a bit lame yes but right now it seems like it would work quite effectively and is (hopefully) easy to grasp.

What do you mean by DNI?
 

Re: Some Tau special rules and wargear I've been working on
« Reply #7 on: August 7, 2011, 04:39:49 PM »
 

Rummy

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I was thinking more of illustrating how Tau units work together for better effect but I'm not locked into arguing one way or the other. Just happy to see some Tau love that isn't "OMG BS4!" or "pulse rifles should be S6 AP3 A5!" nonsense.  :)

DNI = Direct Neural Interface. The command node projects into, reads, and then relates commands from the commander's subconscious without requiring direct thought.
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Re: Some Tau special rules and wargear I've been working on
« Reply #8 on: August 8, 2011, 02:43:50 AM »
 

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I would limit the strength boost to S7 at max though. Fire Warriors should not be blasting through Land Raiders for example. The Epic rules for Tau have something similar where supporting formations add a bonus. I'm just not a fan of an auto power where a single unit gains an advantage by standing still. Perhaps adding that the ability only works for a unit at greater than 50% strength?

I would suggest instead of 50% a set number or tau armies might start losing their normal manoeuvrable fire power and become a gun line list similar to arty IG.
Meaning less suits, more 12 man fire warrior teams and broadside spam, combined with the previously mentioned pathfinder update would essentially be the death of tau battlesuits IMHO.
Unless there will be an update for them to which would be awesome

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Re: Some Tau special rules and wargear I've been working on
« Reply #9 on: August 8, 2011, 07:22:34 AM »
 

Wyddr

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I think all it would do is make the army playable in multiple ways--both gunline and mobile--which was always intended for the Tau, anyway. I agree suits need a bit of fiddling, but I don't think making firewarriors better makes anything else worse.
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Re: Some Tau special rules and wargear I've been working on
« Reply #10 on: August 8, 2011, 07:44:36 AM »
 

Benis

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Indeed. Right now Fire Warriors are only a filler for the list, beyond scoring they do not actually attribute anything to the list which can't be had elsewhere in a better deal, I want them to be central to lists and this means they have to contribute in a wider range than simply anti-infantry. Given the prevalence of mech and light vehicles I thought some sort of method for them to better deal with those targets would be suitable.

It is a flexible option that gives them an opportunity to start tearing down some transports the first turn while not really damaging their normal role in any way, against non-vehicles the strength bonus doesn't matter in comparison to a second shot unless you are firing at a unit of multiple wound T3 models.
 

Re: Some Tau special rules and wargear I've been working on
« Reply #11 on: August 8, 2011, 08:53:05 AM »
 

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Though I may risk sounding a bit ignorant, why don't you want the Fire Warrior squad to have access to special weapons? Is it due to how the models are made, or for balance or flavour purposes?
 

Re: Some Tau special rules and wargear I've been working on
« Reply #12 on: August 8, 2011, 08:56:01 AM »
 

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We start with two special rules which will apply widely through out the list:

Tactical Withdrawal
Tau combat doctrine stress the importance of not letting the enemy catch the Fire Warriors in bloody hand to hand, in some situations it is more important to withdraw than stand and take the fight.
When an enemy unit launches an assault against an unengaged Tau unit that is not falling back, before any moves are made, the Tau unit can choose to pass a leadership test, if successful it immediately falls back in a straight line away from the assaulting unit. If the enemy unit cannot reach the unit upon its new position it may still move D6” towards the retreating Tau unit. If the enemy unit still manages to reach the Tau unit the normal rules for assaulting a unit that falls back applies with the exception that the Tau unit may not make use of Photon grenades.

There really needs to be more of a downside/limitation to this. While the Tau player in me likes the concept the 40k player in me can see how it could easily end up in a case of the unit assaults, Tau fall back, Tau regroup and rapid fire, enemy assaults, Tau fall back... repeat...

Reducing the distance the Tau fall back to 1D6" or causing them to become pinned at the end of the move would help.

Concentrated Fusillade
The pulse rifle is the Fire Warriors prime weaponry, through their exceptionally skill with it they are capable to combine the pulses of several rifles into a stronger stream making them even more effective against armour.
Fire Warrior Teams and Honour Guard that remained stationary during the Movement phase and chooses to use rapid fire resolves their shots at Strength 6. (Note: I added a change to the pulse rifle so that it can be used as either heavy 2 or rapid fire.)

As you seem to be aiming for making them better against vehicles rather than infantry I'd also go with giving Fire Warriors and Honour Guard the Tank Hunters USR in any shooting phase where they remained stationary the movement phase before. Has less of an impact on infantry, gives the same bonus and sticks with an existing rule.

Rest looks well thought out.  :)

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Re: Some Tau special rules and wargear I've been working on
« Reply #13 on: August 8, 2011, 09:08:43 AM »
 

Benis

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Though I may risk sounding a bit ignorant, why don't you want the Fire Warrior squad to have access to special weapons? Is it due to how the models are made, or for balance or flavour purposes?

Background. They are described as not implementing special weapons into their Fire Warrior teams and instead get support from seeker missiles for harder targets. I do not want to step that much on the established background as to suggest adding special weapons, besides it is more interesting to solve the problem in another way.

There really needs to be more of a downside/limitation to this. While the Tau player in me likes the concept the 40k player in me can see how it could easily end up in a case of the unit assaults, Tau fall back, Tau regroup and rapid fire, enemy assaults, Tau fall back... repeat...

Well you have to regroup and you cannot regroup if you are within 6" of an enemy unit so what is more likely to happen is that the Tau unit continues to fall back the following turn. If the suggestions by Wyddr is added then it would be a risky procedure that could result in the entire unit being lost while your suggestion means that it would be rarer for the rule to give a positive effect... I will have to try it and see how annoying it can get.

As you seem to be aiming for making them better against vehicles rather than infantry I'd also go with giving Fire Warriors and Honour Guard the Tank Hunters USR in any shooting phase where they remained stationary the movement phase before. Has less of an impact on infantry, gives the same bonus and sticks with an existing rule.

It might work better but it feels a bit weird to add a universal special rule when remaining stationary and the rule itself contains other bonuses beyond the extra penetration. To me, adding a +1 bonus to the strength doesn't feel that complicated or extraordinary, there are several rules that does just that.
 

Re: Some Tau special rules and wargear I've been working on
« Reply #14 on: August 8, 2011, 11:53:41 AM »
 

khaine

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Well you have to regroup and you cannot regroup if you are within 6" of an enemy unit so what is more likely to happen is that the Tau unit continues to fall back the following turn. If the suggestions by Wyddr is added then it would be a risky procedure that could result in the entire unit being lost while your suggestion means that it would be rarer for the rule to give a positive effect... I will have to try it and see how annoying it can get.

I'd challenge the "more likely to happen" part.  :P

Putting the assault unit at the middle range of a standard assault distance would put them 3.5" away from the Tau, the Tau pull their trick and flee from the assault, on average 7". The assault unit gets to make it's 1D6 move at on 'average' will move 3.5" (Yeah they can't actualy roll 3.5, but keeps it simple)

So Tau end up 7" away and can regroup.

What happens if the unit is closer, rolls better or the Tau  don't flee that far? Well you end up with the Tau within 6" at the start of their turn, they fall back again and have a reasonable chance of still being within 12" to shoot with pulse rifles or a sure thing if they have carbines.

Now the bait and leg it is a known part of Tau tactics so the rule does fit the fluff to a point, however the fluff works that the bait unit pulls back, draws the enemy in and then the rest of the Tau army hammer it, not that the bait does the killing.

To say that if the unit fell back from the assault and then went to gound wouldn't give a possitive effect is over looking the whole issue of avoiding and assault and leaving the assaulting troops standing with their pants down in the middle of a gun line. The unit is safe, the enemy screwed...

Anyway I like the idea of the rule, it fits the background, just needs (imho) some limitation.  :)

It might work better but it feels a bit weird to add a universal special rule when remaining stationary and the rule itself contains other bonuses beyond the extra penetration.

Some units in the IG codex get USRs if they don't move so I don't see an issue there. Also those extra rules don't matter if you word it that they get Tank Hunters for the shooting phase. If you want an anti tank ability make it anti tank not also Instant Death to some units. Of course if you think the instant death is justified then go with the str 6 but don't put it as an anti tank ability put it as an anti everything ability.  :D

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Re: Some Tau special rules and wargear I've been working on
« Reply #15 on: August 8, 2011, 12:11:16 PM »
 

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Hmm, after reading your conclusions and some quick tests it does seem likely that the Tau would escape further than what I at first thought. It does still require a regroup test though, what if the assaulting unit gets to move their full movement instead of D6", that would most likely put the Tau unit within 6" of the enemy unit and it means that the Tau can't use the tactic to stall advance, only to save units from being locked.

As for the fusillade, I do feel that both the bonuses are alright (it will be rare that the S6 is used against non-vehicles in any case) and the simplicity of the rule makes it preferable in my opinion.
 

Re: Some Tau special rules and wargear I've been working on
« Reply #16 on: August 8, 2011, 12:25:08 PM »
 

Wyddr

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As for the fusillade, I do feel that both the bonuses are alright (it will be rare that the S6 is used against non-vehicles in any case) and the simplicity of the rule makes it preferable in my opinion.

I doubt this. I would use it against the following commonly seen non-vehicle targets:

Ork Bikers
Space Marine Bikers
IG Heavy Weapons Squads (yay insta kill!)
Seer Councils (yay instakilling Farseers/Autarchs!)
Plague Marines
Plaguebearers
Bloodcrushers
Daemon Princes
Greater Daemons (all varieties)
All Tyranid Monstrous Creatures
Talos
Wraithguard
Almost anything with a T4, 3+ save (yay wounding on 2s!) or T3 with multiple wounds.
and
The Avatar

There are probably more, too, but those are the ones off the top of my head. As you can see, giving them S6 doesn't mean 'better against vehicles,' it means 'better against everything', including things it makes no sense for them to be better against (why should pulse rifles suddenly instakill heavy weapon squads? Weird). 
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Re: Some Tau special rules and wargear I've been working on
« Reply #17 on: August 8, 2011, 01:19:32 PM »
 

Benis

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Against anything other than multiple wounded (more than two wounds) T3 models and T8 models the second S5 shot makes it superior or equally good, and when equally good I would at least prefer the reliance two S5 would give over a single S6. Now, in close range this changes since the stationary rapid fire gives a simple bonus with no off sets so there it might need to be changed or is that bonus acceptable?
 

Re: Some Tau special rules and wargear I've been working on
« Reply #18 on: August 8, 2011, 01:32:32 PM »
 

khaine

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Against anything other than multiple wounded (more than two wounds) T3 models and T8 models the second S5 shot makes it superior or equally good, and when equally good I would at least prefer the reliance two S5 would give over a single S6. Now, in close range this changes since the stationary rapid fire gives a simple bonus with no off sets so there it might need to be changed or is that bonus acceptable?

I think it would be T7 not T8 where the differance would be, not a big issue as those are pretty rare. Oh and T9 in Apoc' games...

Reading back it looks like you are saying that using the S6 shot halves the number of shots from the squad? You've made a couple of referances to the exchange of the 2nd shot for the extra strength but I can't see a point where it's clear that you only get 1 shot (I may have missed something)

Looking again I think it comes down to the Hvy2 mode you are talking of the Pulse Rifles of having, I think people aren't looking at that as part of the overall rule set as it's kind of a throw away reference and not part of the discussion.

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Re: Some Tau special rules and wargear I've been working on
« Reply #19 on: August 8, 2011, 01:38:25 PM »
 

Wyddr

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Against anything other than multiple wounded (more than two wounds) T3 models and T8 models the second S5 shot makes it superior or equally good, and when equally good I would at least prefer the reliance two S5 would give over a single S6. Now, in close range this changes since the stationary rapid fire gives a simple bonus with no off sets so there it might need to be changed or is that bonus acceptable?

I think it would be T7 not T8 where the differance would be, not a big issue as those are pretty rare. Oh and T9 in Apoc' games...

Reading back it looks like you are saying that using the S6 shot halves the number of shots from the squad? You've made a couple of referances to the exchange of the 2nd shot for the extra strength but I can't see a point where it's clear that you only get 1 shot (I may have missed something)

Looking again I think it comes down to the Hvy2 mode you are talking of the Pulse Rifles of having, I think people aren't looking at that as part of the overall rule set as it's kind of a throw away reference and not part of the discussion.

I concur. It wasn't clear to me that you were trading a shot for the bonus, just movement.
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