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Katamari's debatable fix to 5th Edition Eldar

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Katamari's debatable fix to 5th Edition Eldar
« on: July 30, 2011, 01:23:41 PM »
 

Katamari Damacy

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Although there is both a wishlisting thread as well as a Codex Redux in the Project Section, i felt the urge to share my view on some of the changes i would like to see for the Eldar. Instead of posting the same stuff over and over in the wishlisting thread, i'll try to give you my thoughts here. I avoided the HQ section because that would involve the entire army.

I do not take into account that there is a rumour thread for 6th Edition. Although it's content sounds very promising (even for our 4th Ed. Dex), it would lead way to far to take that into account (besides it would be speculation anyways). I want to try and post what i think would bring our beloved pointy eared fellas back in line with the "current power level". I want to say that i see many of the problems that Eldar face these days in the current BRB. When our Dex came out for 4th, i thought it was a very decent book. Here we go, feel free to disagree  ;)

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Shuriken Catapults as well as Avenger Catapults gain +6" of Range
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The Star Cannon is Heavy3
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Wave Serpent - 80 Pt's
- Shuriken Cannon - 5 Pt's
- Scatter Laser - 15 Pt's
- EML - 20 Pt's
- Star Cannon - 25 Pt's
- Bright Lance - 30 Pt's
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Striking Scorpions - in addition to their current rules, they gain the "Fleet" USR
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Howling Banshees - War Shout: 10 Pt's, test is taken on 3d6 instead of 2d2
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Wraithguard - T5 W2, Weapon changes to Rapid Fire, 18"
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Defender Guardians - 9 Pt's per Model
- Shuriken Cannon - free
- Scatter Laser - 10 Pt's
- EML - 15 Pt's
- Star Cannon - 20 Pt's
- Bright Lance - 20 Pt's
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Warlock - 20 Pt's *
- exchange Witchblade for Runespear - free
- pick one Warlock Psi power - 5 Pt's each
- "Member of the Council" - 3 Pt's
(in order to form/join a HQ unit of Warlocks, they must have the title "Member of the Council")
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Guardian Jetbikes - 20 Pt's per Model (The cost for the Jetbike Warlock is reduced by 5 Pt's.)
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Rangers - 14 Pt's per Ranger, 19 Pt's per Pathfinders. They now have a CCW + Shuriken Pistol in addition to their current war gear.
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Warp Spider - 20 Pt's per Model. Suprise Assault: no scattering when deepstriking. In addition to their current rules, when rolling two identical results for the second jump, roll a 3+ (AS) to prevent the loss of a squad member.
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Hawks - 18 Pt's per Model. Intercept: changes to 3+. Grenade Plate becomes S4 +1 for every 3 Hawks in the Unit (S5 at 5 models, S7 at 9-10 models) and is "pinning"
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Shining Spears - 28 Pt's per Model. They now have a CCW + Shuriken Pistol in addition to their current war gear
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Vypers: 35 Pt's per Model
- Shuriken Cannon - 5 Pt's
- Scatter Laser - 10 Pt's
- EML - 15 Pt's
- Star Cannon - 20 Pt's
- Bright Lance - 25 Pt's
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Wraithlord - 90 Pt's
- The Warithlord has now 3 Attacks
- The Twin-Linked rule is no more
- Equipped with 2 Shuriken Catapults or Flamers in any combination
- May pick up to two of these:
  • Wraithshield (5+ Inv.) - 5 Pt's
  • Wraithblade (re-roll) - 10 Pt's
  • Dual Wraithblades (re-roll, +1A) - 20 Pt's (counts as two options)

- May pick up to two of these
  • Shuriken Cannon - 5 Pt's
  • Scatter Laser - 15 Pt's
  • EML - 20 Pt's
  • Star Cannon - 25 Pt's
  • Bright Lance - 30 Pt's
  • D-Cannon - 35 Pt's (uses both weapon slots)
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Dark Reapers - 28 Pt's per Model

« Last Edit: August 3, 2011, 07:20:25 AM by Katamari Damacy »
The word 'politics' is derived from the word 'poly', meaning 'many', and the word 'ticks', meaning 'blood sucking parasites'.
 

Re: Katamari's debatable fix to 5th Edition Eldar
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2011, 07:03:44 AM »
 

AXEBLADE

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The Star Cannon is Heavy3
This would put the starcannon back into consideration, either that or reduce its points cost (but not both or you risk it becoming overpowered)

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    * Warlocks that are taken as part of the HQ entry become "Members of the Council" (+3 Pt's) otherwise share the Warlock entry's stats

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    Guardian Jetbikes - 20 Pt's per Model (* Warlock upgrade at -5 Pt's, otherwise shares the Warlock entry's stats)
I'm having problems understanding what you mean by this could you give some examples.

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Striking Scorpions - in addition to their current rules, they gain the "Fleet" USR
I disagree with this, the reason they don't have fleet is because of the better armour. If you suggest this then you should give warp spiders and dark reapers fleet aswell.

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Shining Spears - 28 Pt's per Model. They now have a CCW + Shuriken Pistol in addition to their current war gear
I agree with a CC weapon but I wouldn't give them a pistol, the laser lance is a 1 handed CC weapon anyway (according to the autarch profile)

Everything else is essentially points reductions and would need to be carefully playtested to avoid making things to cheap.
 

Re: Katamari's debatable fix to 5th Edition Eldar
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2011, 07:18:30 AM »
 

Lachdonin

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As we're hasing out again in the Redux, Spears are one of the Eldar units that, as it stands, has no defined role. I see them as monster hunters, targeting big things which, with the help of the high strength power weapons, they can take out on the charge. Adding a second CCW just makes it more attractive to get them bogged down in a protracted combat, and i personally think this is against the spirit of the unit.

Other than that, i can agree with  most of the changes. Asside from fleet on Scorpions, however. I think the Fleet issues was really GW dropping the ball... through the floor. Making it so units could run normally really did a number on some of the faster armies, and stacking fleet on every unit isn't going to solve a problem with the core rules.
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Re: Katamari's debatable fix to 5th Edition Eldar
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2011, 07:28:05 AM »
 

Katamari Damacy

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This would put the starcannon back into consideration, either that or reduce its points cost (but not both or you risk it becoming overpowered)

I believe that the major issue with the Star Cannon during 3rd was the minimum squad size of 5 for Guardians. Paired with an "Ultwhe" List, people used this ad absurdum. The Scatter Laser was rather unpredictable, the Shuriken Cannon was unspectacular and so the Star Cannon easily was the no brainer. Pretty much like with the Scatter Laser these days  ::), though not quite as bad.

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I'm having problems understanding what you mean by this could you give some examples.

Hm i wasn't very clear here sorry. My goal was to make the Warlocks in Guardian/GJB Squads 5 points cheaper. But if you buy the Warlocks to form a HQ 'Council', then they pay a little extra to be part of that unit. This would still make the Council slightly cheaper, but only by 2 Pt's per model instead of 5.

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I disagree with this, the reason they don't have fleet is because of the better armour. If you suggest this then you should give warp spiders and dark reapers fleet aswell

Well i can perfectly understand this but my reason to do that is the following: what units do really benefit from fleet in our army? Shees, Scorps and Harlequins. For the rest it's pretty much nice to have, but not really needed (Avengers in rare cases maybe). Now i know that Dark Eldar are more trained for war etc. but i don't see why Incubi should have Fleet while Scorpions don't. With the "Run" for everyone, we have already lost some of our unique mobility and i believe adding Fleet here would give back a little. Scorpions might be trained to be able to give a little extra effort to get in battle even despite their heavy armor. Reapers should not get into such a situation, and the Spiders have no need because they already are very mobile anyways.
The word 'politics' is derived from the word 'poly', meaning 'many', and the word 'ticks', meaning 'blood sucking parasites'.
 

Re: Katamari's debatable fix to 5th Edition Eldar
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2011, 08:24:29 PM »
 

AXEBLADE

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As we're hasing out again in the Redux, Spears are one of the Eldar units that, as it stands, has no defined role. I see them as monster hunters, targeting big things which, with the help of the high strength power weapons, they can take out on the charge. Adding a second CCW just makes it more attractive to get them bogged down in a protracted combat, and i personally think this is against the spirit of the unit.
Given the low model count of the unit I wouldn't intentionally put them into a protracted combat even if they had 3 attacks each.
The extra CCW would give them an extra attack which would make the unit more powerful on the charge and mean that units that aren't maxed out would be more viable.
At the moment on the rare occasions I see these guys they are taken in full squads with exarch with withdraw because they only get 11 attacks for the >200 point 5 man unit. A round of bad rolling with your to hit rolls and you'll only kill 3 MEQ's or do 2 wounds to a MC (some of which have invulnerable saves). Giving them an extra attack each would really help the unit. Every other CC oriented aspect warrior has 2 CC weapons to give them the extra attack so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to give the spears one aswell.

On a personal note I haven't used spears in a tournament (don't own the models) but I have proxied them. I have never used them against a MC as they are actually pretty rare in my area/group of friends. I will have to organise a game againt a player with C's and get him to put it in his list so I can use the spears against it.
 

Re: Katamari's debatable fix to 5th Edition Eldar
« Reply #5 on: August 1, 2011, 10:24:36 PM »
 

Czaq

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I agree with changing wraithguard to T5 and W2, but I don't agree with rapid fire on their weapons. I think that D-weapons are not designed to be able to open a huge number of holes into the warp. It's a technology that is incredibly powerful to begin with. Maybe being able to upgrade every 5th model to having a blast template version, that would be nice.

I agree with others, giving scorpions fleet is...a little out of place. I think it doesn't sit in well with the concept of striking scorpions. They are supposed to be stealth warriors, laying in wait to spring a trap. Why would they need to run to an enemy? I understand it doesn't quite play out like that on the table, but that's why they have an increased armor save.

I don't like changing the starcannon to heavy 3. I think that the problem with it is that there are a limited number of places to place in our army. It is, I think, overpriced throughout the codex. And most places that you would want to put it there is something better to be given. It is very expensive to put onto a waveserpent, which generally does better with any of the other available weapons. It is also expensive on a wraithlord, where it's second weapon attachment does not pair with it well. And everything else that can receive it is bs3 and unintentionally demands guide support to make it extra killy. I can't say that I have a counterargument that would be a better fix for the starcannon, but I don't think heavy 3 is the way to go.

I think that warp spiders should lose models on a double. Or, maybe on another combination of dice rolls that happens less frequently. Having that much mobility is very powerful, and I think that rule is a good way to keep the cost of the unit down.

Otherwise, it looks pretty good. I like my rangers as they are and don't think they really need much of a point drop, but hey thats me  :D
 

Re: Katamari's debatable fix to 5th Edition Eldar
« Reply #6 on: August 2, 2011, 06:30:45 AM »
 

Katamari Damacy

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@ Shining Spears: AXEBLADE pretty much shares my thoughts on them i guess. I don't think they would become too powerful if they had 3 attacks on charge, as long as the squad size is not increased. The absence of grenades further limits their uses but that extra attack would strengthen them in their primary role of dealing with armored stuff that thought it doesn't need cover.

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I agree with changing wraithguard to T5 and W2, but I don't agree with rapid fire on their weapons. I think that D-weapons are not designed to be able to open a huge number of holes into the warp. It's a technology that is incredibly powerful to begin with. Maybe being able to upgrade every 5th model to having a blast template version, that would be nice.

The discussion in the wishlisting thread mostly involved adding another shot or increasing it's range. I thought Rapid Fire at 18" would be a nice way to combine them  ::). The drawback would be, that they are no longer able to charge into combat after shooting. No real drawback imho, but still something to consider. I'm not sure what i would like more on an assault wepaon, 2 shots at 12" or 1 at 18" but im leaning towards the increased range.

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I don't like changing the starcannon to heavy 3. [...] I can't say that I have a counterargument that would be a better fix for the starcannon, but I don't think heavy 3 is the way to go.

I can understand that  ;). Tbh. I'm not quite sure what the Star Cannon actually is. There was a short time after 2nd Edition, before there was the 3rd Ed. Eldar Dex, when it was a basic Plasma Cannon. I really enjoyed my 3 Vypers back then  ;D. Well, it is essentially a Plasma Cannon, but with a twist. In the Redux, it is S7 Ap2 which also works. The low number of shots is something to worry though, as most platforms for this weapon have BS3.

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I think that warp spiders should lose models on a double. Or, maybe on another combination of dice rolls that happens less frequently. Having that much mobility is very powerful, and I think that rule is a good way to keep the cost of the unit down.

Maybe removing it is really not quite the way to go  :-[. I made a little change, so that instead of ignoring the dangers of the warp altogether, they take a single wound against which an Armor Save may be taken. This would put them in line with overheating plasma weapons used by Marines and the Imperium. Would this be acceptable?

The word 'politics' is derived from the word 'poly', meaning 'many', and the word 'ticks', meaning 'blood sucking parasites'.
 

Re: Katamari's debatable fix to 5th Edition Eldar
« Reply #7 on: August 3, 2011, 11:38:28 AM »
 

Facultas

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I believe that the real reason for scorpions having heavier armor and so not having fleet, wasn't so much that it goes against their fluff, but that it would allow for a gap in the rules. When scorpions use shadowstrike they are limited to being at the least, more than 12" away from an enemy if they are out of LOS. This means that without fleet it is impossible for them to get into combat in the first round which would become possible if they did have fleet.

Personally I think this would support their fluff as an ambushing unit, but GW has put in place lots of rules and barriers to make First round assaults, impossible.
 

Re: Katamari's debatable fix to 5th Edition Eldar
« Reply #8 on: August 3, 2011, 12:24:41 PM »
 

Czaq

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The discussion in the wishlisting thread mostly involved adding another shot or increasing it's range. I thought Rapid Fire at 18" would be a nice way to combine them  . The drawback would be, that they are no longer able to charge into combat after shooting. No real drawback imho, but still something to consider. I'm not sure what i would like more on an assault wepaon, 2 shots at 12" or 1 at 18" but im leaning towards the increased range.

I haven't really followed the wishlisting thread much, cause well I'm not a big wisher :) But I completely understand and agree with a change. I think that with the range increase to all shuriken weapons it makes sense for there to be a range increase with the wraithcannon. Maybe, to make it more powerful, it could inflict instant death on a 4+ or 5+. That would also make smaller squads a lot more powerful. Or change the ruling from instant death to "removed from table" to get around the eternal warrior that seems to be cropping up everywhere

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Maybe removing it is really not quite the way to go  . I made a little change, so that instead of ignoring the dangers of the warp altogether, they take a single wound against which an Armor Save may be taken. This would put them in line with overheating plasma weapons used by Marines and the Imperium. Would this be acceptable?

Hehe. My opinion is far from the most acceptable one. Perhaps you could make it a wound that ignores armor saves. That way a model would normally still be removed, but it allows an autarch in the unit to take the wound. It also allows the autarch to use wjg on his/her own without risk of popping into nowhere. Or, perhaps give an exarch ability for, say 10 pts that allows the unit to take their armor saves against wounds cause by jumping.
 

Re: Katamari's debatable fix to 5th Edition Eldar
« Reply #9 on: August 6, 2011, 09:13:15 AM »
 

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^^ going with the idea for an exarch power to use armour saves in failed warp jumps, fluff could just be that they get special armour designed to withstand the warp better than average or something. Along with this, you could originally have it that if you take an Exarch, and you roll doubles on your second jump, if you choose to take the wound on your Exarch, it can take its armour save against it. Becuase, as an Exarch, it has better armour or something. Then if you get the power, you can choose a normal model and it gets to use its armour save.
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