Topic: Promethean Dragons [counts-as Legion Of The Damned in a Salamanders army]

[Aislinn]

I kinda don't like how GW nerfed the different factions of Marine Chapters, but I am slowly learning to deal with it.  So, I was reading the New Space Marine codex, and saw how the Legion of the Damned is a add-on army now, and it got the wheels turning (thought those stopped working ages ago)... but anyhow; I thought, you know the Salamanders should be able to take Heavy flamers as a Heavy weapon choice for Devastators.  and I was all yay the Legion of the Damned can   so i got my brain (or what's left of it) out of the cupboard and thought about changing the paint scheme and whatnot and calling them something like the Promethean Dragons (name could be changed) and adding them to the First Company of my salamanders army.  I think it would be cool and would totally fit with the salamanders... cause they seem kinda salamander-y with all their flamers and whatnot.
  Any ideas or thoughts on this?

[Autarch Koval'andril]

Well, do the rest of their rules fit with what you have in mind? Can you make their otherworldliness make sense?

[WisdomLS]

It'd be a little hard to justify the deepstriking, fearless and invulnerable save.

If your looking for a heavy flamer unit then sternguard can take them and are a better all round choice IMO. Plus you can model them how you like, even use the legion models perhaps.

[Autarch Koval'andril]

It'd be a little hard to justify the deepstriking

No it wouldn't. Teleporters.

fearless

No it wouldn't. They shall know no fear!

and invulnerable save.

That's what I was getting at with my own post. RAW, they don't technically have an armour save, only the invulnerable save, so if there are still things out there that ignore invulnerable saves, you're on your own...

If your looking for a heavy flamer unit then sternguard can take them and are a better all round choice IMO. Plus you can model them how you like, even use the legion models perhaps.

That, and Sternguard aren't Slow and Purposeful, which means you're not crippling yourself by using unnecessarily slow Legionnaires (who also get fewer heavy flamers).

Consider also that if Salamanders, then Vulkan He'stan, and more heavy flamers means more things Vulkan gets to enhance.

[Aislinn]

actually they do fit.  all around.  cause they are from the first company and are a special unit to the Salamanders I was planning on giving them Drake scales (3+ invuln) and that would solve that dilemma.  as far as the other rules, the Deepstriking yes, cause the rest of my army is, and slow and purposeful: cause the average Salamander is Slower than the other space marines as far as reflexes go.  So that is my thoughts on that. 
  Any other ideas?  all the feedback so soon was awesome   thanks

[Unleash Mayhem]

But Sallies aren't slower than normal humans.

I see your idea. Does sound quite cool.

[Aislinn]

But Sallies aren't slower than normal humans.

I see your idea. Does sound quite cool.

   I sure hope they aren't slower than Guard. haha.  but really I just like it cause even tho they will mozey on down the board slow after they drop in... they will take fewer casualties cause of the invuln save.

  But in general, I am taking them as an elite, and as such... they probably won't be in every game. same goes for the terminators and whatnot.  Stuff Like elites I might take one as the game calls for it. But I wanna make sure I get the fluff down for these guys before I use them.

[Azash76]

So, I was reading the New Space Marine codex, and saw how the Legion of the Damned is a add-on army now

This threw me what codex are you reading? My 5th edition codex says they are an elite choice not an add-on army. My apologies if I misunderstood your statement.

I to run a derivative of the Salamanders and have had some issues. Like the guys who are the most into flame throwers and melta's do not have widest variety of weapons of that nature. The actual chapter that has the widest variety the Blood Angels for some damned dumb ass reason (if your unfamiliar they also get pistol versions of flamers and melta's). Disregarding that as you mentioned Devastators can not carry Heavy Flamers.

If you are looking for a more salamander feel to your army I would use sternguard with Heavy Flamers instead of legion of the damned. From what I have read it fits better with the Salamanders. Not trying to be a fluff nazi here just my personal opinion. The Salamanders are some of the best weapon smiths out of all the Space Marine Chapters they craft and care for there own weapons over centuries. Salamanders also have not spawned a single successor chapter in the 10,000 years since the Horus Heresy (at least none they have ever officially documented). So saying there troops are a bit rarer and thus more expensive than your typical Ultramarine knock off is an understatement. Sternguards with there increased attacks, better moral, weapons options, and ammo variants just talk more to the salamanders the fact that they can carry combi's as well since those are described as hand crafted combinations of different weapon types.

I agree with you as I am not a fan of the 5th Edition Space Marine Codex with its watered down chapter individualism. I have long said to the folks in my gaming club that they were 6 pages short of finishing the codex. There should have been an alternative rules page for each of the 6 1st founding Chapters/Legions covered in the book (Imperial Fists, Ravenguard, Salamanders, White Scars, Iron Hands). They could have simply set up the Ultramarine rules as the standard and said if your going to make an Imperial Fists chapter (or founding off of a Fists chapter) you replace chapter tactics with this, heavy bolters cost 5 pts less etc etc etc.

P.S. However keep in mind if I remember correctly in 4th edition the variant rules for the Salamanders actually allowed them to be the only chapter to carry Multi-Meltas. Even though I think this is the most useless heavy weapon to put in a devastator or tactical squad it will add a Salamander feel to your army fluff wise.

[Autarch Koval'andril]

Salamanders also have not spawned a single successor chapter in the 10,000 years since the Horus Heresy (at least none they have ever officially documented).

Not necessarily true. The Sallies admittedly didn't take part in the Second Founding but there's nothing to suggest that they had no successors at all in later Foundings. The Black Dragons and Storm Giants are at least suspected to be Salamander descendents, and perhaps future background (possibly in a Deathwatch supplement) will reveal official descendents.

Point is that they potentially could, not that they absolutely can't. They're not Space Wolves.

If you are looking for a more salamander feel to your army I would use sternguard with Heavy Flamers instead of legion of the damned. From what I have read it fits better with the Salamanders. Not trying to be a fluff nazi here just my personal opinion. The Salamanders are some of the best weapon smiths out of all the Space Marine Chapters they craft and care for there own weapons over centuries. Salamanders also have not spawned a single successor chapter in the 10,000 years since the Horus Heresy (at least none they have ever officially documented). So saying there troops are a bit rarer and thus more expensive than your typical Ultramarine knock off is an understatement. Sternguards with there increased attacks, better moral, weapons options, and ammo variants just talk more to the salamanders the fact that they can carry combi's as well since those are described as hand crafted combinations of different weapon types.

No mention of dragonfire bolts?

...mind you, I only just remembered them myself.

[Azash76]

Not necessarily true. The Sallies admittedly didn't take part in the Second Founding but there's nothing to suggest that they had no successors at all in later Foundings. The Black Dragons and Storm Giants are at least suspected to be Salamander descendents, and perhaps future background (possibly in a Deathwatch supplement) will reveal official descendents.

Point is that they potentially could, not that they absolutely can't. They're not Space Wolves.

Hence the "at least none they have ever officially documented" in the parenthesis in that statement.  The "they" being GW or there proxies the authors of the Black Library and Forge World.

Good call on the Dragonfire Bolts yet another good reason why sternguard have a very Salamander feel to them.

[Autarch Koval'andril]

Not necessarily true. The Sallies admittedly didn't take part in the Second Founding but there's nothing to suggest that they had no successors at all in later Foundings. The Black Dragons and Storm Giants are at least suspected to be Salamander descendents, and perhaps future background (possibly in a Deathwatch supplement) will reveal official descendents.

Point is that they potentially could, not that they absolutely can't. They're not Space Wolves.

Hence the "at least none they have ever officially documented" in the parenthesis in that statement.  The "they" being GW or there proxies the authors of the Black Library and Forge World.

Fair enough. For some reason I -- in my typical awake-for-five-minutes "blargh, I need coffee" state -- interpreted that as relating to the table of Second Founding successors in the Codex. My fault entirely.

[Aislinn]

hey guys thanks for the ideas.  I kinda just wanted the legion of the damned cause they are all about popping in and out of the battlefield and all the icons of flames of their armour.  I think the models themselves will look better than the veterans.  I mean the special rounds are cool and all, but I would just rely on the regular bolters for stuff and the extra flamers for taking out cover.  They just seem to want to last longer cause they have the invul save.  and they are slower so it fits with the scary theme of the Salamanders striking fear into opponents. that is my thoughts anyway.  the veterans are cool, and I may take Veterans someday... but as far as making a special entry I would rather give that honour to a unit more fitting with the fluff that already exists in Salamanders.  I just love the flames and deepstriking of the Legionnaires.  Besides, I am going for model looks not necessarily how much stuff the model can take.

[Deloth Vyrr]

hey guys thanks for the ideas.  I kinda just wanted the legion of the damned cause they are all about popping in and out of the battlefield and all the icons of flames of their armour.  I think the models themselves will look better than the veterans.  I mean the special rounds are cool and all, but I would just rely on the regular bolters for stuff and the extra flamers for taking out cover.  They just seem to want to last longer cause they have the invul save.  and they are slower so it fits with the scary theme of the Salamanders striking fear into opponents. that is my thoughts anyway.  the veterans are cool, and I may take Veterans someday... but as far as making a special entry I would rather give that honour to a unit more fitting with the fluff that already exists in Salamanders.  I just love the flames and deepstriking of the Legionnaires.  Besides, I am going for model looks not necessarily how much stuff the model can take.

So... you really aren't looking for any advice/input at all then. The point of this thread was more of a "hey look what I'm gonna do" and I guess you were just looking for people to tell you how awesome your idea was?

[Aislinn]

well hey now.  that wasn't it.  I wanted to know if the idea totally sucked, and made sense.  I mean I made the fluffy rules, kinda wanted input on if it needed changes.  the fluff would be the same for whatever unit I use, more or less: an elite choice with the ability to take at least one Heavy flamer.  I could use guardsmen and make fluff for them and give them a fancy name as long as it made sense.  I am not really looking for imput on the models, rules would be cool, but I like the flame emblems on the Legionnaires. 
    So, I mean If I did use Sternguard vet rules, I would still take the legionnaire models is all I am saying.  but personally I see more of them in my friends's lists, and i wanted a few models that would stand out.

[Autarch Koval'andril]

So, I mean If I did use Sternguard vet rules, I would still take the legionnaire models is all I am saying.

This is more or less what we're suggesting, and in fairness, the Legion models do look sufficiently badass for that to be a deciding factor -- they look way better than the Veteran minis. Shame they're not plastic.

[Unleash Mayhem]

So, I mean If I did use Sternguard vet rules, I would still take the legionnaire models is all I am saying.

This is more or less what we're suggesting, and in fairness, the Legion models do look sufficiently badass for that to be a deciding factor -- they look way better than the Veteran minis. Shame they're not plastic.

Or finecast. Then people could take weapons they might actually want to take.

[Aislinn]

well I do prefer metal actually.  I just don't like the plastic cause it is harder for me to work with sometimes.  but that is just a preference thing.
   More or Less I just like being able to model drake scales on the already fiery, Legionnaires.  cause then they would be flamey and have the scales and be extra "fluffy."  whereas, if I took the vets, then instead of the invul save I would get extra weapons and different ammunition, which in my opinion is secondary to the squads survivability.

[Autarch Koval'andril]

which in my opinion is secondary to the squads survivability.

That's just a poor excuse for not using the rest of your army properly to support them, in my opinion. Granted, Marines are not Eldar, so you don't have to go quite as overboard as they do, but assuming your units can support themselves on their own is not how you win games. Legion are not a deathstar.

[Aislinn]

I am just putting that out there for this special unit.  I have played other armies like eldar and SOB's with great success.
   I will support them of course, but anything that can further their survivability will be greatly appreciated.  just like you wouldn't make a commander without giving him a force field of some kind.  If my unit of marines can take a mystical invulnerable save I will take that.  Add to that, that their armour has icons of flames all over it and it just fits.  all I got to do is make up some drake scales and stuff to put on the guys.  Ya, the sternguard will last long with more firepower but not much longer cause they have the same armour as a normal marine.

[Azash76]

all I got to do is make up some drake scales and stuff to put on the guys.

If your looking for a good source of kit bashable drake scales a good idea and one ive seen used quite successfully for Salamander conversions is the the fantasy Lizardman Army. Lot's of little useful bits there.