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Eldar Ulthwe 1500 point club viable

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Eldar Ulthwe 1500 point club viable
« on: May 10, 2011, 05:59:49 AM »
 

black_guardians

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Hello

Just moving into the 40k game after been on the side lines for a while and Ulthwe caught my eye

Any Feedback would be appreciated

p.s about 55-60% of the players here use marines of one sort or another

Total 1497 points

Farseer ( with Banchee )
Doom
80 Points

Farseer ( placed with warlocks )
Doom
Fortune
Spirit Stones
130 Points

6 Warlocks
Embolden
Enhance
170 Points

Wave Serpent ( serpent for warlocks )
Spirit Stones
EML
130 Points


8 Howling Banchee
Exarch
Mirrorblades
150 Points

Wave Serpent ( serpent for banchee )
EML
Spirit Stones
130 Points

10 Guardians
Scatter Laser
Warlock
Embolden
124 Points

10 Guardians
Scatter Laser
Warlock
Embolden
125 Points

12 Storm Guards
1 Flamer
Warlock
Enhance
142 Points

3 War Walkers
6 Scatter Lasers
180 Points

Wraithlord
Scatter Laser
EML
135 Points

I was tempted to drop a unit somewhere to get a few Reapers in, or to take it to 2000 points and get a unit of clowns in there aswell , and maybe Eldrad to top it off? but thought i'd try the list on here as is first.

Thanks in advance

PPS

Any eta on a new Eldar codex ? I'd hate to spend time and money buiding a force up for it to be outdated next year.
 

Re: Eldar Ulthwe 1500 point club viable
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2011, 06:43:52 AM »
 

Irisado

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Welcome to the forum.

Any eta on a new Eldar codex ? I'd hate to spend time and money buiding a force up for it to be outdated next year.

The short answer to that is no.  The longer answer is that there is no guarantee that a new codex would actually invalidate your force, providing it's well balanced to start with, and isn't built around one unit, so I wouldn't worry about this too much anyway  :).

I appreciate that you're going for an Ulthwé theme here, but I think that you're overdoing it a little bit, and leaving your army rather exposed as a result, particularly regarding the infantry section.

When you only have 1500 points to play with, taking Warlocks and two Farseers eats up a lot of points.  Warlocks are the most durable Eldar assault squad, but they lack a cutting edge against MEQs, so if Marines are going to be your main opposition, I'm not convinced that they will actually perform all that well.  For this reason, I recommend dropping this unit (Ulthwé armies don't have to include a unit of Warlocks), and increasing the Howling Banshee squad to full size.

The Storm Guardians on foot do not look as if they are likely to achieve very much, and you badly need a mobile scoring unit in fifth edition for objective based missions in my experience, so I suggest that you mount them in the Wave Serpent vacated by your Warlocks.  As far as their equipment is concerned, the tri-template combination (two Flamers and a Warlock with Destructor) is the choice for an anti-infantry unit, while the anti-tank squad (two Fusion Guns and a Warlock with a Singing Spear) can be useful, particularly if you don't want to take Fire Dragons.

Speaking of Fire Dragons, a third Wave Serpent transporting a unit of these Aspect Warriors could come in useful.  Taking only two Wave Serpents in a 1500 point list is marginal in my experience, particularly if facing Marine armies with a high number of heavy weapons, so you may wish to consider adding a third Serpent to strengthen your mechanised wing.

The Guardians and War Walkers are excellent choices, and give you plenty of firepower, but you're going to need to defend them from assaults and close range attacks.  A squad of Striking Scorpions would work well for this in my experience.

The sole Wraithlord doesn't add much in my opinion, so unless you want to take two of these and use them for anti-tank duty, I suggest dropping this, and spending those points elsewhere.

As for the additional units you were talking about, Dark Reapers are expensive and static, so I don't recommend those, Harlequins don't fit the Ulthwé theme, and you don't need Eldrad to field a successful mixed Eldar list in my opinion.

Finally, I'm not convinced that taking two Farseers is necessary.  I suggest that you add Runes of Warding to the second one, and drop the first altogether to save some points.

Overall, the core of this list is solid, but I just feel that it needs to be slightly stronger in all departments, and you can bolster it without compromising your theme.

I hope that helps.
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Re: Eldar Ulthwe 1500 point club viable
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2011, 07:26:01 AM »
 

Natinator

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I agree with pretty much all that Irisado said... but also

You have nothing to take out an LR... the best anti-tank you got is EMLs... you need either lances or dragons in that list somewhere.

If you scrap the Lord, you can get a few scorps to do what Irisado suggested, defending your gunline.

I also suggest dropping the 'locks, as they eat up alot of points... however i suggest, if you want it to run with your banshees, keeping the doomseer and scrap the other one (add Runes of warding to this seer atleast, witnessing as well if you can afford it at the end). Also the two-handed spear thingy (forgot the name) the banshee exarch can have, that gives +x str, is much better for marines. Top the unit out to 10 as well.

Change the guard to tri-template as suggested.

Add in a small squad of dragons (6) to ride in the serpent vacated by the 'locks, and get a serpent for the stormies. Also change the weapon on the dragon serpent to either scatters or shuricannons. Probably the same goes for the banshee serpent. And add 2 EMLs to the walkers, to add some versatility (so if it comes to it they can target a tank).

Hope that helps a bit... A quick guestimation by myself says that you should be able to fit the changes in, pointwise
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Re: Eldar Ulthwe 1500 point club viable
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2011, 08:13:58 AM »
 

black_guardians

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okay, thanks for the heads up :D

I'll have another stab at it, see if I can get it a little more versatile, I realy had thought though the sear council would have been a hit rather than a miss, and had considered dropping the banchee squad to get a second , I guess that isnt going to be the best idea in the world.

The wraithlord if i'm being honest was there for just 2 reasons, 1 ) to try and gain their attention for a turn or 2, giving the other units some space, and 2) I like the model  :P

I like the template info for the guardians, makes sence

The one thing I am not sure about is giving the guardians bright lances, with their bs being 3, I had thought the more chances to hit the better ? Though I aggree, I need something to take out heavy armor..I had missed that
 

Re: Eldar Ulthwe 1500 point club viable
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2011, 08:32:21 AM »
 

Natinator

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DO NOT GIVE GUARDIANS LANCES!!!  ;D

It is an utter waste of points to give guardians lances, with their BS3... either put lances on the serpents, or getting dragons, are your best bets. Otherwise have a 'Lord setup with EML/Lance combo, though that is still only one lance. You really need 2 units with lances, or a unit with lances and dragons... that is a minimum.

Your only other options really are to have your lord walk up and stomp on anything - not recommened as your army is not setup for this  :P
Or to get Fuegan... but he costs alot and needs some dragons to go with.

The seer council is good, but as stated, against marines with a save of atleast 3+, sometimes 2+, and then you get termies, etc, with ++ saves, then the warlocks become less useful, even with the wounding on a 2+. Banshees are better as they get rid of the pesky armour saves and with Doom, can wound pretty well too. And are cheaper, so you get more attacks. But as I said get the 2 handed weapon for the extra strength for your exarch, and then those marines will go down so fast.
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Re: Eldar Ulthwe 1500 point club viable
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2011, 09:19:14 AM »
 

Irisado

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I'll have another stab at it, see if I can get it a little more versatile, I realy had thought though the sear council would have been a hit rather than a miss, and had considered dropping the banchee squad to get a second , I guess that isnt going to be the best idea in the world.

If you were facing more non-Marine armies, this unit could work quite well, but the fact that you're facing so many Marine armies means that it's just not the best choice in my view.  The unit lacks the attacks of the Striking Scorpions, and lacks the cutting edge of the Howling Banshees.  It's great for assaulting tanks, and high toughness low save units, but you can take other units to deal with tanks, and high toughness low save units are not something you're going to come across in Marine armies.

Quote
The wraithlord if i'm being honest was there for just 2 reasons, 1 ) to try and gain their attention for a turn or 2, giving the other units some space, and 2) I like the model  :P

Both good reasons for taking it, but one just is unlikely to survive for long enough, and you already have War Walkers to provide anti-infantry fire support.  Two Wraithlords, each equipped with an EML and Brightlance would give you anti-tank fire support, and last for longer, so if you want to go down this route, this is the route that I recommend you go down.

Quote
The one thing I am not sure about is giving the guardians bright lances, with their bs being x, I had thought the more chances to hit the better ? Though I aggree, I need something to take out heavy armor..I had missed that

Guardians are not best suited to being equipped with Brightlances.  You would need to take a lot of squads, say four, and give each of them a Brightlance for this idea to work in my view.  When you only have two squads, you simply are better off taking multiple shot weapons.  Remember the Scatter Laser not only wounds infantry very easily, but can also be used against light vehicles too.

I hope that helps.
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Re: Eldar Ulthwe 1500 point club viable
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2011, 10:03:41 AM »
 

black_guardians

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Short answer, yes, these posts realy do help. they help alot infact

I appreciate it, thankyou

I'm on excel atm trying to make adjustments for these, and it does look like it's going to be more viable, although so far i'm 200 points over budget so will be looking what I can shave off

1 question though i'm using spirit stones on the ws, are holofields worth the points on transports, either aswell as or instead of the stones ?

My first instinct when I looked at the Eldar fluff was that I must field an Iyanden force, though when I looked at the points involved that quickly changed to Ulthwe as fluff wise I do like the feel of it almost as much as Iyanden.

As far as a new codex went it was more new models being released I was worried about, rather than the rule changes, i've found a few places selling mini magnets ( 1mm and 2mm ) so was planning on using those to be able to make weapon adjustments to vehicles etc as needed.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 10:16:37 AM by black_guardians »
 

Re: Eldar Ulthwe 1500 point club viable
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2011, 10:18:48 AM »
 

Irisado

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1 question though i'm using spirit stones on the ws, are holofields worth the points on transports, either aswell as or instead of the stones ?

You definitely need the Spirit Stones, so I don't advise you to drop these.  Wave Serpents cannot take Holofields, so that point is moot.  If you were using a Falcon for any reason (and I see no reason to use one in this list), then Holofields and Spirit Stones would be recommended.
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Re: Eldar Ulthwe 1500 point club viable
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2011, 10:36:07 AM »
 

black_guardians

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Okay, here is, I hope a more usable try.

Trying to fit that second lord in has put a bit of a squeze on the list I think, although it will deffinatly give them something to fire at rather than the remainder of the force.

Farseer
Doom
Fortune
Spirit Stones
130 Points

9 Howling Banchee
Exarch
Ececutioner
166 Points

Wave Serpent ( for banchee )
Spirit Stones
Scatter Laser
125 Points

10 Guardians
Scatter Laser
Warlock
Conceal
135 Points

10 Storm Guardians
2 Fusion Guns
Warlock
Destructor
Spear
130 Points


Wave Serpent ( for storm Guardians )
Spirit Stones
Shuriken Cannon
110 Points

10 Storm Guardians
2 flamers
Warlock
Destructor
127 Points

Wave Serpent ( for storm guardians )
Spirit Stones
Shurikan Cannon
110 Points

3 War Walkers
6 Scatter Laser
180 Points

Wraithlord
EML
Brighlance
155 Points

Wraithlord
Brighlance
130 Points

1498 Points
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 02:15:37 PM by black_guardians »
 

Re: Eldar Ulthwe 1500 point club viable
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2011, 10:47:26 AM »
 

Irisado

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The mechanised wing looks good now.  Destructor or Embolden for the Warlock leading the Storm Guardians with Fusion Guns would be ideal if you could find the points.  Replacing the Scatter Laser on the Howling Banshee squad's Wave Serpent with a Shuriken Cannon would save a few points if you want an idea as to where you could make some cuts.

The lone Guardian squad on foot looks vulnerable.  I suggest that you keep it in cover (in which case replacing Conceal with Embolden is recommended), and employ a strategy which allows your mechanised wing to shield your infantry section, as a strategy which involves using a mixed list with a strong infantry block, such as the hammer and anvil clearly will not work here.  Even so, this one squad is going to be very vulnerable to attacks via deep strike, especially if the units in question are armed with Flamers, so if you want to keep the War Walkers and have only one Guardian squad, you're going to have to work hard to protect it.

I don't agree with mixing War Walker weaponry, especially the EML and Scatter Laser.  The former is inferior against infantry when firing Plasma missiles, while the latter cannot target mid to high AV targets as the EML can.  These issues, coupled with the two weapons having different ranges, mean that the EMLs are best mounted on the Wraithlords with those Brightlances, while the War Walkers stick with Scatter Lasers all round in my opinion.

Otherwise, the list looks solid, but you are going to be strategically limited, owing to the fragile nature of the infantry block.  If you're happy to play within these limitations though, the list should perform quite well.

I hope that helps.

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Re: Eldar Ulthwe 1500 point club viable
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2011, 11:47:16 AM »
 

black_guardians

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Other thing I had thought about was dropping the 2nd wraithlord and the defender squad altogether , and using the points to get either another banchee squad or storm squad + a serpent for them as below, although then it comes back to could i get something better to use than that solitary wraithlord, although keeping near the war walkers could help keep them from being assaulted ?


Farseer
Doom
Fortune
Spirit Stones
130 Points

9 Howling Banchee
Exarch
Ececutioner
166 Points

Wave Serpent
Spirit Stones
Scatter Laser
125 Points

10 Storm Guardians
2 flamers
Warlock
Destructor
127 Points

Wave Serpent
Spirit Stones
Bright lance
145 Points

10 Storm Guardians
2 Fusion Guns
Warlock
Spear
Embolden
125 Points

Wave Serpent
Spirit Stones
Shuriken Cannon
110 Points

10 Storm Guardians
2 flamers
Warlock
Destructor
127 Points

Wave Serpent
Spirit Stones
Shurikan Cannon
110 Points

3 War Walkers
4 Scatter Laser
180 Points


Wraithlord
EML
Brighlance
155 Points
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 11:57:33 AM by black_guardians »
 

Re: Eldar Ulthwe 1500 point club viable
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2011, 12:17:46 PM »
 

_iNK

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Other thing I had thought about was dropping the 2nd wraithlord and the defender squad altogether , and using the points to get either another banchee squad or storm squad + a serpent for them as below, although then it comes back to could i get something better to use than that solitary wraithlord, although keeping near the war walkers could help keep them from being assaulted ?

You could do this, however, I would change your AT Storm guardian squad to some Fire Dragons. That means you have 2 Guardian units, and 2 aspect warrior units, so your list will remain fluffy.

Maybe your lone Lord an your walkers could support eachother, but they both want to be shooting so you are really vulnerable to deepstrikers as Irisado said before.

Your list is very playable I beleive, so if I were you I'd get out there and give the list a try as it is now, and from there you can add changes accordingly. It's really a joy to learn new stuff all the time, what unit combinations you like most, so I'd just go playtesting and find out what suits you best.

Welcome back and goodluck :)
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Re: Eldar Ulthwe 1500 point club viable
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2011, 02:08:32 PM »
 

Irisado

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You would be moving towards a fully mechanised list if you were to go down the path laid out in your latest revision, and I think that would be a shame, given that your original concept was sound enough.

Just because the sole squad of Guardians combined with the Wraithlords and War Walkers isn't the ideal infantry block does not mean that it won't work, and it's certainly better than trying to integrate one Wraithlord into a mainly mechanised army in my view, so I think that it's better for you to stick with the mixed concept, and just out different versions of the infantry to find out which performs best for you.
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