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Author Topic: Fire Caste High Command - 5th Edition Codex Tau  (Read 4754 times)

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Offline AXEBLADE

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Re: Fire Caste High Command - 5th Edition Codex Tau
« Reply #20 on: March 8, 2011, 09:06:22 PM »
@Locke
Perhaps my post was a little ambigous as to my meaning. During conversations with my friends who play tau (I will admit I do not play tau however I play against them frequently) about how to update the codex to fit in with GW's current theme and make the codex more competitive the following idea came up.

-Make things like suits and kroot 0-1.
-Remove the restriction of 1+ for commanders and firewarriors.
Have the different types of kroot as completely seperate units in seperate FOC slots.
-Have the HQ choices remover the restrictions on certain units. ie taking a tau battlesuit commander removes the 0-1 restriction on battlesuits. The kroot HQ lets you take more kroot carnivores or lets you take other kroot units (ie krootox riders/hounds) that you would not be otherwise able to take.

The result is that depending on which HQ choice you take you can make completely different lists while not restricting yourself completely to taking only one branch. ie. you could take a mostly kroot army however that list would suffer from a lack of anti-tank therefore you would kit out your one squad of suits with anti tank weapons.

Is it a perfect idea? No
Does it require more work and balance? Yes
Will everyone like it? Obviously not

While Farsight might famously field a mostly suit army I don't think that you should have to take a special character in order to take a mostly suit army. Especially considering the tau's military flexibility when compared to the indoctrinated military structure and philosiphies of the other races (especially IG, marines and eldar). Which is why we tried to stear the conversation away from the relatively easy fix of special character makes X unit into a troops choice.


While I understand that you personally may not want a viable kroot mercinary army to be built from the tau codex there are many people who would. And if GW did make it a viable army type then they might sell more kroot models (which is after all what GW cares about).
I personally like it when GW brings back previous ideas and makes them usable again. I was very impressed with the way they incorperated the 3rd ed craftworld eldar builds into the current eldar codex as usable armies for example. And I personally would like to see, if not a complete kroot mercinary army then certainly an almost entirely kroot army, being possible in the next tau codex.


As to my example of vespid being slightly outdated. While I have not been able to play much this edition due to work comitments I do know that the person I mentioned still uses his vespids in much the same way in 5th edition except he now has to have more anti tank in the rest of his army to deal with the mechanised trend. I only mentioned the 4th ed example as I have seen it first hand.

Offline Locke

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Re: Fire Caste High Command - 5th Edition Codex Tau
« Reply #21 on: March 9, 2011, 01:13:00 AM »
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I'm not sure that I would want to see that effect.  I'm not sure that I would not mind some form of that rule in place, given Jaws and Vibro Cannons.  I don't want to St 10 everything hit in a line, no cover saves.  I would do something like St 10 Hit on the first model.  Cover Saves apply.  If the target is hit, penetrated, and the round is not blocked by cover, the next tank in line is then hit and so on and so forth.  I might even have the strength be reduced by one point per tank it blows though, representing the projectile losing velocity as it bleeds energy on impact.

Tell that to Jaws and Blood Lance on the reducing strength option.

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While you are right, concrete would mean nothing to a rail round, this is the 41st Millennium, where unknown materials such as rockcrete, wraithbone, nid Bio-structures, and adamantium exist.

True. And if my railgun is punching through both sides of a landraider, I don't see how some building materials are going to stand in the way. Most cover is in the form of ruins. Presently, what we use to build buildings is not stronger than tank armor.

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Not to mention that this rule seems a little un-Tauish.  Tau are all about "Hey, that target, there, it dies" as opposed to the Guard's "Something in that direction is dead."  Railgun attacks with that rule strike me as too indiscriminate. 

Then what would you suggest to improve it?

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I disagree.  Why?  Because the only models in the game that can do that are one special character who is one of the most experienced genetically engineered super-soldiers in the galaxy, and specialized, highly rare, assassins gene-tailored for the role.  Even Eldar Pathfinders don't get that ability.  The idea that something with the brain of a squirrel can perform feats equal to the galaxies best snipers when Eldar can't match is some thing I can't agree with.

Well rather than comparing it to the other codexes, which is inherently inbalanced, do you have an idea to improve the unit?

Quote
-Make things like suits and kroot 0-1.
-Remove the restriction of 1+ for commanders and firewarriors.
Have the different types of kroot as completely seperate units in seperate FOC slots.
-Have the HQ choices remover the restrictions on certain units. ie taking a tau battlesuit commander removes the 0-1 restriction on battlesuits. The kroot HQ lets you take more kroot carnivores or lets you take other kroot units (ie krootox riders/hounds) that you would not be otherwise able to take.

Then your friends don't know what they're talking about. They're making the codex worse, and then building it back up with HQ's. What the hell is the point of that?

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The result is that depending on which HQ choice you take you can make completely different lists while not restricting yourself completely to taking only one branch. ie. you could take a mostly kroot army however that list would suffer from a lack of anti-tank therefore you would kit out your one squad of suits with anti tank weapons.

Is it a perfect idea? No
Does it require more work and balance? Yes
Will everyone like it? Obviously not

No, I just don't think it has any place in a TAU codex. Put that in Codex: auxiliaries.
« Last Edit: March 9, 2011, 01:14:47 AM by Locke »
Locke's Record (2010):
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            Tau: 21-3-6
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Offline Benis

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Re: Fire Caste High Command - 5th Edition Codex Tau
« Reply #22 on: March 9, 2011, 03:38:16 AM »
True. And if my railgun is punching through both sides of a landraider, I don't see how some building materials are going to stand in the way. Most cover is in the form of ruins. Presently, what we use to build buildings is not stronger than tank armor.

Cover has little to do with actual deflecting of shots, it is about obscuring yourself and making it damn hard to acquire a solid target. Even if a railgun is an exceptionally powerful weapon it still needs to hit something significant to actually do damage to a target.

Now, I do agree that the railgun could have a penetrative ability similar to the Blood Lance but with some limitations (no simply drawing a line and let all targets get hit business).

Well rather than comparing it to the other codexes, which is inherently inbalanced

I didn't find a single thing in the BA 'dex where I was like "Eh, it's alright."

These sort of comments strike me as excessive, unnecessary and close to a whine. There are plenty of average choices in Codex: Blood Angels, in fact most of them are pretty average - it isn't made of gold you know. Also, what do you mean by "inherently imbalanced" in the first quote?

Wyddr's idea of letting the Tau player allocate wounds in the shooting phase could be an ability that woks in combination with the Sniper Drones and their usage of Markerlights. I do agree to some extent with the comment regarding Eldar but at the same time some abilities have to be proportionate to what similar units in other codices can do, this however can easily be attached to the Markerlight function which, to me, makes it okay.

I would like to see an increase in the organisation of Tau units to show how they are attached to each other and work together. Letting a Fire Warrior team buy units of Sniper Drone teams, Drone squadrons and Pathfinder teams would ease up the Fast Attack and Heavy Support section while making the Fire Warrior team a lot more interesting and also place Pathfinders in the Troops section without letting them be a compulsory choice. If the XV9 is added I could see a similar arrangement for Crisis suit teams to add a support squad in the form of a Stealthsuit team to help the Elites section from being swamped and also open up the use of a mixture of units. It would be fitting for all suit teams to have the option to buy a Drone squadron just like a Fire Warrior team.

Offline AXEBLADE

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Re: Fire Caste High Command - 5th Edition Codex Tau
« Reply #23 on: March 9, 2011, 07:13:21 AM »
Quote
Quote
The result is that depending on which HQ choice you take you can make completely different lists while not restricting yourself completely to taking only one branch. ie. you could take a mostly kroot army however that list would suffer from a lack of anti-tank therefore you would kit out your one squad of suits with anti tank weapons.

    Is it a perfect idea? No
    Does it require more work and balance? Yes
    Will everyone like it? Obviously not
No, I just don't think it has any place in a TAU codex. Put that in Codex: auxiliaries.
Yes or perhaps even in the codex Tau Empire.
And with that negativity I shall withdraw from this "discussion"

Offline +++CLASSIFIED+++

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Re: Fire Caste High Command - 5th Edition Codex Tau
« Reply #24 on: March 9, 2011, 08:21:38 AM »
That's unfortunate. :(

I think that although auxilia are an intergral part of the Tau Empire, I don't think that they should define it. At the core of the cadre and in command should be Tau.
I do not think any auxillaries belong in a HQ slot.

I think Kroot shapers should be dropped to 1 wound but should provide shaper bonus (choose 1 of 3-4) to their squad.
If they re-introduce Anghor Prok (at 2 wounds) he should be a troop choice upgrade similar to the likes of Sergeant Bastone or Chaplain Lemartes. Such a character should provide a unique shaper bonus.
I don't think kroot hounds or krootox riders should be nessecary.
« Last Edit: March 9, 2011, 08:24:21 AM by +++CLASSIFIED+++ »


Offline Shas'Oink

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Re: Fire Caste High Command - 5th Edition Codex Tau
« Reply #25 on: March 9, 2011, 09:18:06 AM »
Just to clarify,

@Locke
The implicaiton that you, or others in the thread, don't know how to use sky rays is certainly there. It was meant to be. I'm not saying that you specifically don't know how to, but I'm just sick and tired of people (anyone) lambasting a unit as rubbish when it isn't... there are only two possible answers to such a claim... 1; the person does not know how to use the unit OR 2; the unit does not fit in well with that persons local metagame.

I'm also not going to argue that we have sub standard choices... but they are MOSTLY only sub standard when compared to the newer codex releases and the clear power creep going on at the moment. In and of itself, our codex has, in general, very usable units.


The Tau have a wealth of potential and possibility.

I also don't agree with the "commander builds the army" approach. It's an interesting idea, but this sort of thing tends to split the army into a number of types... and thenall armies of that type appear identical. I do think that our HQ (let alone our characters) need a serious looking at. In most other armies the HQ has a clearly defined role. In most armies they are combat powerhouses. The only place (i can think of) where this is not the case is with the guard... and they have their own role of supporting the army through orders. Even then, the command teams can be used as specialist hit squads etc.

For the Tau, our HQs are basically just crisis suits, that are a little bit better at shooting. Any benefit they have over other suits in combat is pretty much negated by the fact that Tau in general are so bad in combat it's not worth considering!

Offline +++CLASSIFIED+++

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Re: Fire Caste High Command - 5th Edition Codex Tau
« Reply #26 on: March 9, 2011, 09:49:38 AM »
I gotta say that I both agree with and disagree with you. ;)

I definately agree that cadres should be commanded by a battlesuit commander!
Ethereals ultimately out-rank commanders and should therefore be far more unique.

Ethereals should have the following:
•3 wounds to indicate that they are extremely important high-ranked officials of the ruling caste, on-par in prestige with a Space Marine Chapter Master.
•An invulnerable save (5+) provided by some badge of office to indicate that they are not naive enough to set foot on a battlefield unprotected and to match various current artwork depicting ethereals wearing armour.
•Honour blades should be a standardised ceremonial weapon of office and should be rending.
•Ethereals should have a comnand radius of 24" and confer Stuborness to all Tau units within this radius.
Furthermore, all Tau units within line of sight of the Ethereal may use his leadership (10).
•Honour Guard should confer the "Aaagh! Look Out!" rule in order to protect their Aun as bodyguards.
Also, to reflect that they have forgone battlesuit training, Honour Guard should be WS 3 to indicate a dedication to a specialised martial doctorine to protect their Aun.
« Last Edit: March 9, 2011, 09:54:16 AM by +++CLASSIFIED+++ »


Offline Shas'Oink

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Re: Fire Caste High Command - 5th Edition Codex Tau
« Reply #27 on: March 9, 2011, 10:59:44 AM »
The most important, and perhaps only fix necessary for an Honour Guard... is to make them scoring units. A martial prowess seems pretty useless... particularly when this still won't even make them better in combat than an Imperial Guardsman! Currently, there is little point to take an honour guard and spend points on fire warriors that cant capture objectives (particularly when I can use markerlights to improve the BS of standard FWs anyway).


Offline Locke

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Re: Fire Caste High Command - 5th Edition Codex Tau
« Reply #28 on: March 9, 2011, 11:02:20 AM »
Quote
These sort of comments strike me as excessive, unnecessary and close to a whine. There are plenty of average choices in Codex: Blood Angels, in fact most of them are pretty average - it isn't made of gold you know. Also, what do you mean by "inherently imbalanced" in the first quote?

I'm glad you see it that way. To me, it's being very frustrated that my army has had a lackluster codex from the beginning that's gotten worse every new release, yet when we try to come together to think of new ideas, people just sit and say we're making them too powerful. Tau shouldn't be this gimp army, yet everybody has that attitude.

As for what I meant with the comparison to other codicies in terms of fluff. That's just not a reasonable way to compare things. Eldar are supposed to be this amazingly potent psychic race, but the new Grey Knights are looking to be immensely more powerful. Yes, the Eldar have cool tricks, but they definitely don't live up to their mantra there. Demon Princes are supposed to be these incredibly powerful beings, they're not.

Every time a Tau player thinks up something cool, it gets compared to what another race can't do, but should supposedly be better at. By that same token, our guns should be over the top crazy powerful, and we should be very agile. That's supposed to be our niche. It's not anywhere close.

Quote
I think Kroot shapers should be dropped to 1 wound but should provide shaper bonus (choose 1 of 3-4) to their squad.
If they re-introduce Anghor Prok (at 2 wounds) he should be a troop choice upgrade similar to the likes of Sergeant Bastone or Chaplain Lemartes. Such a character should provide a unique shaper bonus.
I don't think kroot hounds or krootox riders should be nessecary.

I like these ideas. What are you thinking for shaper bonuses? And what do you mean by you think the shouldn't be necessary. Like, not in the codex?

Quote
@Locke
The implicaiton that you, or others in the thread, don't know how to use sky rays is certainly there. It was meant to be. I'm not saying that you specifically don't know how to, but I'm just sick and tired of people (anyone) lambasting a unit as rubbish when it isn't... there are only two possible answers to such a claim... 1; the person does not know how to use the unit OR 2; the unit does not fit in well with that persons local metagame.

I would run a skyray at 155 points, but more importantly, a heavy support slot. I don't think for those points and that FOC slot it's worth it at present. If it was a FA option, I would give it a lot more consideration. And I do personally think I do know how to use it.

Quote
I'm also not going to argue that we have sub standard choices... but they are MOSTLY only sub standard when compared to the newer codex releases and the clear power creep going on at the moment. In and of itself, our codex has, in general, very usable units.

These two things seem contradictory to me. Yes, as a codex the units are usable, the only way they aren't is when they're something illegal. But if we're designing a new codex, it needs to fit with the power structure of the most recent codex releases. I don't see why you would compare them to older dexes, knowing that as they're all updated the power creep will continue.

Quote
I do think that our HQ (let alone our characters) need a serious looking at. In most other armies the HQ has a clearly defined role. In most armies they are combat powerhouses. The only place (i can think of) where this is not the case is with the guard... and they have their own role of supporting the army through orders. Even then, the command teams can be used as specialist hit squads etc.

For the Tau, our HQs are basically just crisis suits, that are a little bit better at shooting. Any benefit they have over other suits in combat is pretty much negated by the fact that Tau in general are so bad in combat it's not worth considering!

Oink... What? Generally I respect what you're saying, but I feel like you're very far off point here. Leaders are supposed to be the big, though, exemplifications of their army. The fact that the Tau's aren't is a clear failure of the dex. Our HQ's should combine guard support roll with the standard big tough HQ roll, in the same way many recent codexes have. The one I'm thinking of most clearly is the 'nid 'dex. Give them a command and control roll as well as firepower that's over the top compared to a crisis suit, and then make them pay for it.

Quote
3 wounds to indicate that they are extremely important high-ranked officials of the ruling caste, on-par in prestige with a Space Marine Chapter Master.
An invulnerable save (5+) provided by some badge of office to indicate that they are not naive enough to set foot on a battlefield unprotected and to match various current artwork depicting ethereals wearing armour.

A w2 guy is fine in my opinion, but I agree that he needs armor. I've always thought that ethereals would be issued at minimum standard fire warrior armor along with their seal of office for a 4+/5++. Considering how obsessed Tau are with protecting them, it just makes sense.

Quote
Honour blades should be a standardised ceremonial weapon of office and should be rending.
•Ethereals should have a comnand radius of 24" and confer Stuborness to all Tau units within this radius.
Furthermore, all Tau units within line of sight of the Ethereal may use his leadership (10).
•Honour Guard should confer the "Aaagh! Look Out!" rule in order to protect their Aun as bodyguards.
Also, to reflect that they have forgone battlesuit training, Honour Guard should be WS 3 to indicate a dedication to a specialised martial doctorine to protect their Aun.

While all of this might be interesting, I still don't think that makes an Aun worth taking, especially with the target that will still be painted on him. Could we consider the whole multi-caste leadership group that was thrown around last time similar to an IG command squad that allowed for different powers.

If an Aun is nothing but a morale booster, he ultimately won't be effective. Any other unit that does that in an enemy army also has other rolls to perform. Synapse is a good example of this.
Locke's Record (2010):
 Shas'el'Sa'cea'Kanvah'Kais: 3-1-1
 Simulation (Vassal) Record: 31-4-9
            Tau: 21-3-6
     Necrons: 3-1-1
 Dark Eldar: 7-0-2

Offline Shas'Oink

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Re: Fire Caste High Command - 5th Edition Codex Tau
« Reply #29 on: March 9, 2011, 12:43:59 PM »
Sorry yea, my comments on commanders weren't very clear. I think we may have discussed this together before actually, but I think that our commanders are pretty poor choices. Some days I wish I didn't have to take a commander... Perhaps it is because of a lack of different types of commander. Mostly its because the our Shas'El and Shas'O commanders really have nothing special over their Crisis suit compatriots.

To be honest, a shas'el and a shas'o should probably do very different things. I would like to think of the shas'el as a "front line" commander... perhaps giving direct boosts to a command squad - and having access to much more experimental kit... perhaps even an option for an xv22 suit (and stealth suit bodyguard perhaps?) This might even be a place for something like the xv9 Hazard

the shas'o i see more as a "strategic commander". And as a result might work more for the bigger picture... so perhaps giving you an optional +1 to reserve rolls, or re-roll reserve rolls. And providing a leadership bubble for nearby units. They might not use as much expermental kit as they are far to valuable to risk. I'd like to see heavier armed commander suits too though - such as the forge world suit with SMS or markerlight (which to me both exemplifies a support role to nearby units) I'd also love to see a shas'o on foot option... being able to go into an honour guard unit. This way you wouldnt HAVE to field any suits if you didnt want to (though they would still provide those comand effects).

For the Ethereal I always thought it could be cool to have him work in a unit similar to teh imperial guard command. what if you could have "advisors" from the other septs which gave your army different bonuses... such as the air caste providing air support firepower (such as an ion strike... or the water caste neutering enemy reserves (having used their diplomatic skills to misdirect!? or what have you)

Offline Blood Hawk

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Re: Fire Caste High Command - 5th Edition Codex Tau
« Reply #30 on: March 9, 2011, 01:05:57 PM »
Ethereals I see working as they do now, being basically a Tau version of a commissar (that doesn't kill his own troops of course).  One thing I thought is possible for them is to give them a ordnance blast (only one we would have access to) that is st8-9 ap 3 were the ethereal calls in a missile strike from near by Tau fighters.  Other things possible for ethereal is access to abilities where he nominates certain tau units with a certain distance and makes them fearless till the Tau players next turn.  Oh and yea get rid of the god dam price of failure rule, I doubt when ethereals have an average life expectancy of 40 years that Tau society becomes Private William Hudson from Aliens the moment an ethereal dies.  Not only that but mechanics wise it makes ethereals into a liability on the field.

Tau commanders should be similar to eldar Autarch and space marine captians but instead of intense training and experience use superior tech to obtain bonus like what oink was referring to like bonus to reverses, unlocking certain options as troops, granting bonus to hit or wound to squads he is attached to etc.

Offline Aspiringarchon

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Re: Fire Caste High Command - 5th Edition Codex Tau
« Reply #31 on: March 9, 2011, 01:38:06 PM »
I believe GW needs to revisit the weapon loadout on the Hammerhead. They give you a tank with 72" range with the option to buy 18" BC or GD. Orrrr..... 24" LOS ignorers- Lame. Better options please!

Offline Locke

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Re: Fire Caste High Command - 5th Edition Codex Tau
« Reply #32 on: March 9, 2011, 02:15:41 PM »
Quote
Sorry yea, my comments on commanders weren't very clear. I think we may have discussed this together before actually, but I think that our commanders are pretty poor choices. Some days I wish I didn't have to take a commander... Perhaps it is because of a lack of different types of commander. Mostly its because the our Shas'El and Shas'O commanders really have nothing special over their Crisis suit compatriots.

I wish I didn't either, but c'est la vie. Different types would be nice, but I still think they should be better than standard elites choices in something other than CC...

Quote
To be honest, a shas'el and a shas'o should probably do very different things. I would like to think of the shas'el as a "front line" commander... perhaps giving direct boosts to a command squad - and having access to much more experimental kit... perhaps even an option for an xv22 suit (and stealth suit bodyguard perhaps?) This might even be a place for something like the xv9 Hazard

That all sounds good. A standard XV9 commander could carry special weapons and hardware.

Quote
the shas'o i see more as a "strategic commander". And as a result might work more for the bigger picture... so perhaps giving you an optional +1 to reserve rolls, or re-roll reserve rolls. And providing a leadership bubble for nearby units. They might not use as much expermental kit as they are far to valuable to risk. I'd like to see heavier armed commander suits too though - such as the forge world suit with SMS or markerlight (which to me both exemplifies a support role to nearby units) I'd also love to see a shas'o on foot option... being able to go into an honour guard unit. This way you wouldnt HAVE to field any suits if you didnt want to (though they would still provide those comand effects).

Those effects still don't seem worth it to me over a Shas'el that has special weaponry. Leadership bubbles and a markerlight aren't doing it for me, especially with a mech list. I do like an on foot one, though honestly a tank commander sounds awesome to me. Command Devilfish.

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For the Ethereal I always thought it could be cool to have him work in a unit similar to teh imperial guard command. what if you could have "advisors" from the other septs which gave your army different bonuses... such as the air caste providing air support firepower (such as an ion strike... or the water caste neutering enemy reserves (having used their diplomatic skills to misdirect!? or what have you)

That's basically what I was talking about, yeah. I like the idea of them doing more for a direct combat roll.

Quote
Oh and yea get rid of the god dam price of failure rule, I doubt when ethereals have an average life expectancy of 40 years that Tau society becomes Private William Hudson from Aliens the moment an ethereal dies.  Not only that but mechanics wise it makes ethereals into a liability on the field.

Agreed. Other revered leaders die on the field, the rest of the world doesn't go crazy and stop doing what they do best.

Quote
I believe GW needs to revisit the weapon loadout on the Hammerhead. They give you a tank with 72" range with the option to buy 18" BC or GD. Orrrr..... 24" LOS ignorers- Lame. Better options please!

Hammerheads could use some variation, but honestly we'll have to work pretty hard to get something on par with the railgun, especially considering the proposed changes. As far as secondary weapons, because of target locks, that's not a huge deal.
Locke's Record (2010):
 Shas'el'Sa'cea'Kanvah'Kais: 3-1-1
 Simulation (Vassal) Record: 31-4-9
            Tau: 21-3-6
     Necrons: 3-1-1
 Dark Eldar: 7-0-2

 


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