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8th ed and High Elves.

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8th ed and High Elves.
« on: September 11, 2010, 06:27:44 AM »
 

Bassiecore

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 :-\ I used to know my Elfs pretty well but with the release of 8th, i completely stopped playing them.
However, with the new Island of Blood and the upcoming High Elf releases (plastic Phoenix Guard ;D ;D ;D) I am trying to get back into it.
I do have some questions:
1) If i have a Horde of Lotheren Sea Guard containing 40 models, fo they fire 30 shots or 25 in a volley fire?
2) Are my Phoenix Guards still worth taking?
3) Swordsmasters?
4) when selecting my Characters, is it better to have my usual build of 1 Noble on foot w/th Shadow armour/reaver bow and 2 Lv 2 Mages with lore of High Magic and Lore of Death or 1 Lv 4 Mage and a combat character?
5) are there any tips/tricks to do with 8th ed that i should know about/employ?

Thanks

{GMS}
 

Re: 8th ed and High Elves.
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2010, 08:02:22 AM »
 

Benis

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1) Horde has no effect on how many models can fire weapons, and it has no effect on the volley special rule.

2) Given that warmachines are quite dangerous so a solid ward save is no small thing and that Alway Strikes First also give you a re-roll to hit in almost all cases for Elves I would say that they are worth it if you like them. They also have the plus over Swordmasters that they actually get to hit from the second rank with all that you pay for (Swordmasters pay dearly for two attacks but only get one from the scond rank) and White Lions have lost some from the Always Strikes First special rule.

3) Less so, but they are still good but maybe not something you want to field in huge units, they can be effective though as flankers in smaller groups.

4) It really depends on the list and what you want to get out from your magic phase. In my opinion two Wizards are better than one, but I would prefer to go with one Lvl 3-4 and one Lvl 2.

5) Just become comfortable with, and know, the rules. There has been a lot of changes and almost nothing is left unaffected by them. For High Elves, with their weak armour and toughness, shooting has become more dangerous - both from warmachines and missile troops - so it is definitely worthwhile to have some magic missiles to eliminate mortars, handgunners, bowmen etc.
 

Re: 8th ed and High Elves.
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2010, 08:56:11 AM »
 

Bassiecore

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1) Horde has no effect on how many models can fire weapons, and it has no effect on the volley special rule.

2) Given that warmachines are quite dangerous so a solid ward save is no small thing and that Alway Strikes First also give you a re-roll to hit in almost all cases for Elves I would say that they are worth it if you like them. They also have the plus over Swordmasters that they actually get to hit from the second rank with all that you pay for (Swordmasters pay dearly for two attacks but only get one from the scond rank) and White Lions have lost some from the Always Strikes First special rule.

3) Less so, but they are still good but maybe not something you want to field in huge units, they can be effective though as flankers in smaller groups.

4) It really depends on the list and what you want to get out from your magic phase. In my opinion two Wizards are better than one, but I would prefer to go with one Lvl 3-4 and one Lvl 2.

5) Just become comfortable with, and know, the rules. There has been a lot of changes and almost nothing is left unaffected by them. For High Elves, with their weak armour and toughness, shooting has become more dangerous - both from warmachines and missile troops - so it is definitely worthwhile to have some magic missiles to eliminate mortars, handgunners, bowmen etc.

Thanks for the reply Benis =]
I now have a sort-of list in my head based arround a core of 30 Seaguard, 19 archers and Shadow Warriors with a Lv2 Firemage and my General.
Goes a little like this:
Core:
30 Sea Guard with Sheilds, Full Command and Lion Standard - 440 points
19 Archers with Light Armour, Full Command - 253 points

Heros: Alith Anar - 245 points
Mage, Lv2 with Jewel of the Dusk, Lore of Fire - 150 points
Mage, Lv1 with High Magic (sheild of saphery) - 100 points

Special: 10 Phoenix Guard with Full Command, Banner of Arcane Protection: 205 points
10 Shadow Warriors with Shadow Walker - 172 points

Comes to 1565 atm and is to be a 2000 point list.

What should i add to make it compettitive?

{GMS}
 

Re: 8th ed and High Elves.
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2010, 09:24:21 AM »
 

Benis

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All in all it looks alright. Maybe drop the Jewel of Dusk for another level on the second Mage, you could also skip the Standard of Arcane Protection from the Phoenix Guard, they already have a solid save so it might be worth to save the points for other stuff.

Good things to add would be some more infantry units and boost the Phoenix Guard but you would also want some swift stuff to make sure that you can have some control of the movement, maybe add a chariot or some Dragon Princes? Bolt Throwers are also a good addition but not as necessary as the addition of cavalry would be.

What other choices to you like from the Armybook? It is usually easier to pick stuff you like so tell us what you like and don't like and we can help you to figure out what would fit your army the best.
 

Re: 8th ed and High Elves.
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2010, 09:36:41 AM »
 

Bassiecore

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All in all it looks alright. Maybe drop the Jewel of Dusk for another level on the second Mage, you could also skip the Standard of Arcane Protection from the Phoenix Guard, they already have a solid save so it might be worth to save the points for other stuff.
I have the Lv 1 mage to ensure that i can have Sheild. on my Horde. Hopefully i will be able to get it on one dice and the opp wont be able to stop it if i use my Lv2 correctly to draw away his dispell dice =] he also has Drain Magic to irritate the enemy =D

@Phoenix Guard, i understand that if they have the banner they have a 2++ wardsave vs magicness? or am i completely wrong?

What other choices to you like from the Armybook? It is usually easier to pick stuff you like so tell us what you like and don't like and we can help you to figure out what would fit your army the best.
Well, I would like to add my Dragon Princes (8 converted Silver Helms) and Lion Chariot but IIRC i can only have up to 25% (500 points) in Special and they wouldnt fit with the restriction.
More Seaguard would be nice and i have 36 more on the way (being painted --> unusable as i never play with partially painted models)
Bolt throwers. I have 2 but was not sure if i really need them as i seem to have raher alot of ranged stuff already =S

I was also thinking of swapping AlithAnar out for a Prince on foot with Armour of Calador, Fencers Blades - 210 points. This leaves me with an extra 40 points for Heros, enough to give that second mage lv2

Thanks

{GMS}
 

Re: 8th ed and High Elves.
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2010, 09:52:20 AM »
 

Lorizael

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Yes, Pheonix Guard with banner of arcane protection have a 2++ save against magic. But they have a good save already without the banner. It may be better to save the points or put the banner on a different unit so that the magic protection is spread around a bit.

Converted silverhelms as dragon princes? Have you not seen the awesome new models!?!?!
 

Re: 8th ed and High Elves.
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2010, 10:08:39 AM »
 

Bassiecore

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Yes, Pheonix Guard with banner of arcane protection have a 2++ save against magic. But they have a good save already without the banner. It may be better to save the points or put the banner on a different unit so that the magic protection is spread around a bit.

Converted silverhelms as dragon princes? Have you not seen the awesome new models!?!?!
Sounds good but its too expensive to put on  the Spears and i cant givit to anyone else =s

And yes, yes i have  ;D ;D ;D They were converted because i cant afford to spend 35 on 5 models. Plastic kits FTW
{GMS}
 

Re: 8th ed and High Elves.
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2010, 10:31:35 AM »
 

PaJohnChaos

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i must say in the one prox game I played with high elves I did fairly well.

I was also playing another high elf player so that made it all the more fun.

I took a level 4 archmage with the seerstaff and something else i cant remember

a 40 elf block of seeguard all with shields

phonix guard

hero with reaver bow and one with the bsb which was the banner of the world dragon which i put with the seaguard.

it was a very fun game that ended up with me winning and him only have 1 model on the board
What a beloved day for war. Or pie...Pie wars? mmmmm pie
 

Re: 8th ed and High Elves.
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2010, 04:50:42 PM »
 

Lorizael

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Banner of Arcane Protection isn't too expensive to put on spears...
 

Re: 8th ed and High Elves.
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2010, 05:04:04 PM »
 

Bassiecore

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Banner of Arcane Protection isn't too expensive to put on spears...
:o
For some reason i thought it was... And i even had the armybook open to that page to check the points cost for the Lion Standard. :-[

However, I do stand by what i said about not moving it, albeit for different reasons now...
I need the Lion Standard on my Spears. They form the core of my battleline and i REALLY dont want them running away due to a failed Fear test. And many of my opponents are verry keen on the Fear or Terror causing units =[

{GMS}

PS, New question: Are Great Eagles worth it, both on their own and as mounts?
Same with Griffons as mounts?
 

Re: 8th ed and High Elves.
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2010, 03:53:26 AM »
 

Benis

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Yes I would also prefer some reliability when it comes to the Seaguard against Fear and Terror. But I would still save the Banner of Arcane Protection for another unit, if you have eight Dragon Princes they are sure to fit into the list and would love some ward saves against pesky Lore of Metal spells or other magic attacks that ignore armour saves, give the banner to them instead. Like Lorizael said, the Phoenix Guard's save is there already and it is good, better to spread the love around a bit.

PS, New question: Are Great Eagles worth it, both on their own and as mounts?
Same with Griffons as mounts?

Great Eagles: As mounts they might be useful if you plan to run a mage that fields a lore with a lot of spells with short range (Death for example) but for a regular Noble there isn't much of a purpose to give them an eagle, if you want to have a Noble with a Reaver Bow the Tiranoc Chariot is a far superior delivery system for that. They used to be quite good on their own but right now they would be limited to Warmachine hunting and maybe engaging a thinly numbered missile unit but that is it but given the changes to Frenzy and March Blocking they aren't as useful as the used to be.

Griffons: This is more of a cheap power house that in my opinion is superior to a Sun Dragon, unless you plan to have a Dragon Mage. You get all that is a monster in quite a cheap package that is overall decent, it is also nice with the new rules concerning Inspiring Presence which means that it is possible for you general to be moving far in front of the main line while still giving it his leadership. It is still risky though and you still will fail against most big units, thunderstomp or not. Basically the Griffon is nice but it requires that you have some plan around him for the whole army (the same can be said about Dragons), you cannot simply add a Prince on a Griffon in the same way as you can add another unit of Lothern Seaguard.
 

Re: 8th ed and High Elves.
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2010, 09:44:57 AM »
 

Wyrmnax

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:-\ I used to know my Elfs pretty well but with the release of 8th, i completely stopped playing them.
However, with the new Island of Blood and the upcoming High Elf releases (plastic Phoenix Guard ;D ;D ;D) I am trying to get back into it.
I do have some questions:
1) If i have a Horde of Lotheren Sea Guard containing 40 models, fo they fire 30 shots or 25 in a volley fire?

Horde has no effect on how many shots you have.

2) Are my Phoenix Guards still worth taking?

Yes. HE in general didnt do so well with the rules change - their defense was that ASF meant you had not enemies to attack you back. With supporting attacks, that is no longer true. The phoenix guard didnt change - they are still a very reliable unit that will survive most things thrown at them.

3) Swordsmasters?

Swordsmasters got somewhat shafted. They dont kill enough to not get attacked back, they pay dearly for half attacks from the second rank and they are as survivable as the other elfs. They are still good, but no longer a no-brainer unit as they were in 7th.

4) when selecting my Characters, is it better to have my usual build of 1 Noble on foot w/th Shadow armour/reaver bow and 2 Lv 2 Mages with lore of High Magic and Lore of Death or 1 Lv 4 Mage and a combat character?

Depends on the rest of your army. Basic lores got very powerful, some are worth having a lv4 mages just so you can be almost sure to get that one spell. But depends a *lot* of what you are fielding.

5) are there any tips/tricks to do with 8th ed that i should know about/employ?

Thanks

{GMS}

Big blocks of spearmen. Reasonable blocks of Seaguard.

And watch out for those 6x6 chaos warriors.
 

Re: 8th ed and High Elves.
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2010, 07:08:57 AM »
 

Brutoni

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Yes. HE in general didnt do so well with the rules change - their defense was that ASF meant you had not enemies to attack you back. With supporting attacks, that is no longer true. The phoenix guard didnt change - they are still a very reliable unit that will survive most things thrown at them.

Sorry, but I completely disagree with this. Wood elves got shafted for example

ASF with greatswords? Usually re-rolling hits, wounding on 3's or 2's. 2 attacks front rank with 1 from the rank behind. That's not shafted in any way. So you can't charge them into the front of a hoard. That makes sense as opposed to being nerfed.

Whitelions are also pretty brutal with the ASF rules. HE spearmen are exceptionally capable of retaining a full number of ASF attacks that often re-roll misses regardless of the casualties they take so long as you have a reasonable bock of them.

Dragon's are brutal when used correctly, Eagles can be used very effectively against machines, skirmishers and even as supporting flankers due to the stomp rules.

High magic is brutal, with easy to cast spells under the new regieme and drain magic being such a useful spell. Flames of the Phoenix is also very very capable due to the changes in always remains in play.

Phoenix guard are dark horses in this edition.

Attacks back needn't be as bad as people are thinking, hit the enemy in the flank to deny supporting/hoard attacks. Coupled with your high number of kills compared to relatively few casualties, bonus for charging you will win the first round. 2nd round throw another unit into the other flank or the front to finish the main unit off.

You have to use the smaller elite units to isolate and destroy elements. HE play the same but are outrageously offensive when used correctly. Powerful magic backs them up and should a gunline threaten them there are steps you can take through magical support, flying heroes, great eagles, fast cavalry to enable your main units to close.
 

Re: 8th ed and High Elves.
« Reply #13 on: October 2, 2010, 05:28:31 PM »
 

Wiggus

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just by happenstance im picking up island of blodd next week sometime and will be looking to find someone in the uk to swap my high elf minis for skaven so if you willing and able drop me a pm
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Re: 8th ed and High Elves.
« Reply #14 on: October 3, 2010, 09:04:56 AM »
 

Benis

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ASF with greatswords? Usually re-rolling hits.

I suggest you read both the rules for Always Strikes First and the rules for Always Strikes Last since this is clearly not how it works.
 

Re: 8th ed and High Elves.
« Reply #15 on: October 3, 2010, 09:51:28 AM »
 

Awfully Dandy

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ASF with greatswords? Usually re-rolling hits.

I suggest you read both the rules for Always Strikes First and the rules for Always Strikes Last since this is clearly not how it works.

Have you checked the High Elf FAQ?
 

Re: 8th ed and High Elves.
« Reply #16 on: October 3, 2010, 10:43:18 AM »
 

Benis

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Thank you for pointing that out, I had missed that change.
 

Re: 8th ed and High Elves.
« Reply #17 on: October 3, 2010, 02:50:05 PM »
 

Brutoni

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Yeah usually a great weapon gives always strikes last. However the High elf army wide special rule entitles a high elf to the always strikes first special rule REGARDLESS of the weapon they are using. Making Swordmasters and White lions quite potent in many respects.

In fact a High elf Lord with a great weapon has a +2 strength weapon that always strikes first and due to his very high I it will be unusual for him not to re-roll misses. Coupled with his high WS... well you get the picture, said High elf Prince or Noble hits like a ton of bricks. Can be combined with some lovely magic items to make the high elf character quite killy.

I stand by what I said, High elves in 8th edition are brutal and I cannot wait until I can afford the Island of Blood set.

Wiggus I would offer to swap the skaven I get from the Island of Blood however it will be another 1-2 months. If you are still haven't found anyone drop me a PM around then?
 

Re: 8th ed and High Elves.
« Reply #18 on: October 3, 2010, 03:53:30 PM »
 

sysy16

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Hi,

Can someone point me to the re rolling missed to hits? I can't find in the rule book or the high elf book this bit but I seem to recall that if you have a higher intiative you re-roll?

Is that correct.

Not asking the rule, just the page number!

 

Re: 8th ed and High Elves.
« Reply #19 on: October 3, 2010, 05:28:52 PM »
 

Wiggus

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butoni just drop me a line when you have yours sorted the HE will be sitting around here until in the box until someone takes up the offer
My name is Steven Wilson
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