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Author Topic: Space Wolves? Are they really that cheap? Please look here!  (Read 5006 times)

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Offline Raktra (So long, I guess)

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Re: Space Wolfss??? Are they really that cheap? please look here!!
« Reply #20 on: June 7, 2010, 01:55:36 PM »
You're thinking in terms of Vacuumhammer though.
...
-Do Daemons army have melta-weapons, or reliable anti-tank? Generally, no. Except for Fiends (which compete with Bloodcrushers), and Tzeentch Heralds. Which incidentally compete slotwise with Bloodcrushers. Thus, while Bloodcrushers are mean anti-infantry, Fiends fulfill the need for dealing with mechanized opponents, relieving pressure off your Tzeentch Heralds.
I usually agree with most of what you say, but listing Daemons only 2 AT units as Tzeentch Heralds and Fiends is far from right. Screamers, Daemon Princes, Greater Daemons and Soul Grinders can all perform the task admirably.

And on the flipside of that, I agree with the vacuum statement. Comparisons like this usually do miss a lot of factors out.

Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: Space Wolfss??? Are they really that cheap? please look here!!
« Reply #21 on: June 7, 2010, 02:07:56 PM »
Except:
-Greater Daemons compete with Heralds (meaning less shots/easier to focus-fire dead).
-Soulgrinders have a *LOT* of problems associated with them. Next to impossible to find cover for on account of being huge as all get? Check. Only vehicles in the Daemon Army (hi meltabait; it's not like the Meltas will have better targets thanks to armywide Eternal Warrior...)? Check. A funky Weapon Destroyed ruling that means you can destroy all their weapons in one go? Check. A huge profile that seriously limits its ability to be deepstruck near enemy armor (go on, ask how many players *seriously* Deep Strike Landraiders), compounded with walker mobility or lack thereof? Having it mishap and deepstrike to the corner of the map opposite that the battle is actually taking place in, is always good for a laugh...

Did miss out on Princes, mostly as they're pricey. They are an option though. As for dealing with tanks, that's all Screamers do. Even then, that's a stretch, as rolling 6s to hit is never fun with single-attack models. Fiends and Hounds do have weight of attacks, and are scary against infantry too.

Then again, back to Space Wolves. They're alright. You can make several good armybuilds with them, and they are better than vanilla Marines at doing infantry or Razorspam armies. Marines do still do Drop Pods, Land Raider, and Biker armies better though.
« Last Edit: June 7, 2010, 02:16:08 PM by MagicJuggler »

Offline angel of death 007

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Re: Space Wolfss??? Are they really that cheap? please look here!!
« Reply #22 on: June 9, 2010, 02:33:27 AM »
or

3) Space wolves offered a build (or builds actually) that people where inexperienced playing against, offering them a temporary advantage that is enjoyed by most new codexes.

This is the same as happens with all new codexes, a few people see a way to build a strong army fairly early and take it to tournaments, they do well partly because the army is one that is new for people to fight but mostly because the people who're early converts on the tournament scene are players who usually give every new army a try if they think it'll work, arguably they do it because of the advantage of having an army that people are unfamiliar with playing against. After this a few more jump on the bandwagon and the army becomes common enough that people learn to play against it.

IF the trend continued at other tournaments month after month and space wolves continued to have that sort of win record which is what happened with some of the lists that where broken back in 4th edition (Iron Warriors being a good example). So for now I think its just new codex envy, the next tournament I expect will have a strong showing with Blood Angels.

I think you make a very good point here.  Though I will say that space wolves had the advantage not so much because people were not used to playing against them as by now a lot of people who are some what competative have played against them...  I would say that they are not used to playing against wolves at this points level.   So I do agree with your point which is well stated.

With Blood Angels I do see a similar trend...   but lets look at what both these armies have in common...

Marine characteristics...   which are above normal for str, toughness and saves.  With now a bonus or two...  counterattack, FNP, furious charge... 

So you take an army's basic troops (BA or SW) which are above other armies (stat wise) and give them a bonus (special ability or skill).. not to mention lowering their points cost across the board it does make them a bit harder to take on.

Not to mention most of the weapons that are going to be used to take them out at range... are very pricey for most non-fifth edition codexes to spam (if they even got them).

I mean I remember when the only real units that had similar stats were Necrons with their WBB... though fifth edition hurt them big time...  and plague marines with FNP...  but both of them both pay a premium for those abilities...  and for furious charge berserkers...  at a higher points cost plus lack of choices for customization..   

Not to mention the speed and abilities now...  shorter table length, faster transport, ability to have scoring units with jump packs or outflanking.  I really see blood angels being a larger problem overall then wolves at larger points games though.  Simply because you can't sit back and shoot them as they can be in your face in a hurry.  Not to mention that both armies have access to one of the cheapest tranports points wise in the game.. and also the best armored ones (land raider varients)  gives you tons of options or combinations in which you can play with.   The only thing that somewhat limits you is the points.  I mean everything else that stood in their way they just bent or broke the whole FOC to fix....  what's that you don't have enough HQ... ok lets make you be able to take (4)....   oh you don't want jump marines in fast attack... ok.. lets make them troops...   or maybe you want to load up on land raiders ok lets just make them dedicated transports...   don't even get me started on the storm ravens..  as if drop pods transporting Dreads wasn't bad enough.  Sure wish i could hook my Avatar or Wraithlord up to the front of my waveserpant and go for a ride.

To put that in context, the 2000-point Space Wolf Razorspam army I am putting together has 27 Killpoints. Under the third Ard Boyz Mission's rulings, it would have had 55! I like knowing that a Rhino is worth 3 Ork Hordes, don't you?

And yet I didn't see too many ork armies placing in ard boyz???   Considering that the first mission (or maybe the second) was the one with plenty of objectives giving a mech army an advantage there I think the last mission helped to balance it out a bit.  It meant that people could go transport crazy but they knew they might have to pay for it in the end.   I do think that the missions this year were a bit more balanced... though a few armies still had a very large up hill battle.  I think the last mission was to help keep some of the 5th edition armies that can and tend to spam cheap transports... in check.


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Re: Space Wolfss??? Are they really that cheap? please look here!!
« Reply #23 on: June 9, 2010, 08:06:07 AM »
I think you make a very good point here.  Though I will say that space wolves had the advantage not so much because people were not used to playing against them as by now a lot of people who are some what competative have played against them...  I would say that they are not used to playing against wolves at this points level.   So I do agree with your point which is well stated.

But the data from 'ard boys isn't a tournament thats only played in by 'somewhat competitive players' from what I gather its more of a thing that everyone plays, meaning that you get a lot of players who aren't experienced jumping into the mix. If you also consider that in a store run heat you have about two dozen players its only going to be the more active ones that have built and army ready for a fairly recent codex anyway...

With Blood Angels I do see a similar trend...   but lets look at what both these armies have in common...

Quote
So you take an army's basic troops (BA or SW) which are above other armies (stat wise) and give them a bonus (special ability or skill).. not to mention lowering their points cost across the board it does make them a bit harder to take on.

Good troops is a common feature of marine armies, these two variants do get troops that are somewhat above the average I'll agree but there is ballance. The codex marines have access to bikers as troops for example, not as hardy in combat but faster for objective taking and better in the special weapon department, and their selection of special characters evens things out... a Vulkan list is still one of the top tier builds out of any army.


Quote
Not to mention the speed and abilities now...  shorter table length, faster transport, ability to have scoring units with jump packs or outflanking.  I really see blood angels being a larger problem overall then wolves at larger points games though.  Simply because you can't sit back and shoot them as they can be in your face in a hurry.  Not to mention that both armies have access to one of the cheapest tranports points wise in the game.. and also the best armored ones (land raider varients)  gives you tons of options or combinations in which you can play with.   The only thing that somewhat limits you is the points.  I mean everything else that stood in their way they just bent or broke the whole FOC to fix....  what's that you don't have enough HQ... ok lets make you be able to take (4)....   oh you don't want jump marines in fast attack... ok.. lets make them troops...   or maybe you want to load up on land raiders ok lets just make them dedicated transports...   don't even get me started on the storm ravens..  as if drop pods transporting Dreads wasn't bad enough.  Sure wish i could hook my Avatar or Wraithlord up to the front of my waveserpant and go for a ride.

Um... you've sort of lost me here. This reads to me as a more of 'I hate space marines' rant rather than an actually wanting to discuss things. If you want to discuss the balance of armys in tournaments I'd be more than interested in listening, and I don't want to seem rude but if I wanted to take part in talking about why the eldar codex needs to be better I'd read pretty much any thread in the Eldar forum.
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Offline angel of death 007

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Re: Space Wolfss??? Are they really that cheap? please look here!!
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2010, 05:27:10 AM »

But the data from 'ard boys isn't a tournament thats only played in by 'somewhat competitive players' from what I gather its more of a thing that everyone plays, meaning that you get a lot of players who aren't experienced jumping into the mix. If you also consider that in a store run heat you have about two dozen players its only going to be the more active ones that have built and army ready for a fairly recent codex anyway...

With Blood Angels I do see a similar trend...   but lets look at what both these armies have in common...

Um... you've sort of lost me here. This reads to me as a more of 'I hate space marines' rant rather than an actually wanting to discuss things. If you want to discuss the balance of armys in tournaments I'd be more than interested in listening, and I don't want to seem rude but if I wanted to take part in talking about why the eldar codex needs to be better I'd read pretty much any thread in the Eldar forum.

Well again here is where we differ in opinion.  I will say that ard boys gets more variety of players.   About the inexperienced I tend to disagree as 2500 points of warhammer 40K stuff usually takes most people awhile to accumulate due to cost.  And since most people starting out don't go that deep into it due to cost and not really deciding on an army to take I do think that ard boyz brings more experienced players then say a 500 pts tournament as almost anyone can easily get 500 pts of models relatively easy.  Now the exception to the rule is people that have more money then they know what to do with.. which even though there might be some of them I don't think are overly common.

Inexperienced with 2500 point armies on the otherhand is where i agree with you as most places don't run tournaments at those point levels...  mostly due to time restraints or lack of players that could possibly field armies at those points.

Actually I think the space marine codex was rather well wrote overall for a 5th edition codex.   So i am not hating on it at all.  Yes Vulkan lists get spammed but even those lists are balanced.  I really wasn't wanting it to be another why eldar codex needs to be redone rant... everyone knows there are enough of those.  I am just saying I really don't like how every game except apocalypse is so stuck on FOC's...  yet 5th edition started to change this with
orks...  if I take this HQ then this unit counts as troops...
then guard...  let's squad our heavy choices so we can take more,  space wolves...  can take up to is it 4 hq i believe, and blood angels with jump infantry as troops...    I just think they all bend the rules quite a bit considering all codexes previously you could only take X amount of HQ, Elite, Fast, Heavy, and there was competition for the choices now it just seems like they give ya the extra spots in the FOC's that you need.   

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Re: Space Wolfss??? Are they really that cheap? please look here!!
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2010, 07:02:35 AM »
pet peeve of mine but I just have to correct this.

The changes of the FOC did not start with orks!  It started with the Dark Angels.  I know it is an inferior chapter of marines, but it still started the changes with HQ to the FOC.
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Re: Space Wolfss??? Are they really that cheap? please look here!!
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2010, 07:30:10 AM »
Also Space wolves would have been toting 4 HQs at the 'ard boys points level in 4th edition too. In fact, it would have been mandatory that they did (and mandatory that they took 3 at anything above 1500pts).

I'm afraid I don't see that a lot of the things you suggest are new actually are.
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Re: Space Wolfss??? Are they really that cheap? please look here!!
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2010, 07:44:11 AM »
The changes of the FOC did not start with orks!  It started with the Dark Angels.  I know it is an inferior chapter of marines, but it still started the changes with HQ to the FOC.

To be techncial I think the first army list to start moving units around the force org chart was Codex Craftworld Eldar. Admittedly it used a different way of moving units around (by pre-selection instead of character based) but the end result was the same.

But I agree, units being available differently is not a new issue.

About the inexperienced I tend to disagree as 2500 points of warhammer 40K stuff usually takes most people awhile to accumulate due to cost.

...

Inexperienced with 2500 point armies on the otherhand is where i agree with you

So you don't agree, but you do actually.

Quote
I am just saying I really don't like how every game except apocalypse is so stuck on FOC's...

The reason for that is people playing standard games at too high a points value causes the game ballance to suffer, the main rulebook advises using multiple detachments in high points value games (page 87, although the advice to use more than one chart has been increased this edition when it used to be 2,000 points). Higher points values with only one chart cause an advantage to armies that have naturally expensive units, for example an ork army can easily fill out every single slot in their chart by 2000 points without trying... often the only way to get higher is to take orks and to pile on the wargear.

I'm sure you know as well as I do, piling on more wargear than is prudent isn't a great tactic at the best of times.

I'm already on record as saying that these 2500 point games (often crammed onto the size of board that most people play 1500 points on) is not a good environment for a fair and balanced competitive tournament, bigger isn't better because they've only increased the points size and not table size or the force org size. So I'd rather not go into it again. :)
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Offline High Grandmaster smithmyster666 of the Grey Knights

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Re: Space Wolfss??? Are they really that cheap? please look here!!
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2010, 12:22:48 PM »
I find that wolves are far from unbeatable, for IG players you have the russ BT, russ executioner and basalisk/medusa which make short work of them
Blood angels have the option for power weapon DC, which will make thunderwolves die nicely
Orks have a weight of numbers
Codex Marines, well, they don't have anything extra special

Point is that all 5th ed dexes can compete with each other
Unlike the older dexes which don't have the toys or loadout, but I still think most 4th ed dexes can compete easily
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Offline unforgiven555

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Re: Space Wolfss??? Are they really that cheap? please look here!!
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2010, 09:03:11 PM »
... only to run into Plague Marines that did not want to die. ::) He killed off the majority of my army, but i still stood toe to toe with him for the majority of the game.
...
 Their troops i think, are a bit overpowered with being excellent in both shooting and CC.

GH are excellent, but they're comparable to a regular chaos space marine.
- Weapons options are more expensive, but chaos space marines have heavy weapons, and u don't have to give up the second to get a champion. Chaos can't get 2 fists and mark, but then you're subsequently putting the points into the unit and losing shooting for that ability.
- LD 10 (possibly rerollable) vs LD 8 is also pretty big.
- Counter attack is good.
- GH get rerolling 1s for one turn can be very good, however chaos can be better in combat overall with banner of khorne

Overall GH are better than a regular CSM, yes, but they're not all THAT different. You're saving a few points here and there but they lose out on the long range.

Chaos space marines certainly are not overpowered. And obviously plague marines are better, although they serve a different purpose.

Analysis such as these are not exactly the greatest, as they fail to take into the army's abilities as a whole. I think the space wolves are cheaper, and more efficient, in their troops and heavy (long fangs are amazing) however they make up for it with the cost of their HQs.

With regards to a 10 man terminator unit, ultramarines do it much better.

Space wolves (and to an extent chaos) also are more reliant on support from their core squads, as they can't quite put together an assault terminator squad that is as effective as ultramarine terminators. They're looking towards their HQs for combat strength, backed by their troops (via bolter fire to whittle them down) or charging into the fray in support.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 09:14:45 PM by unforgiven555 »

Offline Raktra (So long, I guess)

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Re: Space Wolfss??? Are they really that cheap? please look here!!
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2010, 09:13:12 PM »
In that comparison, bear in mind that LD10 (before mods) with re-rolls is still mostly inferior to ATSKNF, which remains an extremely powerful ability.

Offline unforgiven555

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Re: Space Wolfss??? Are they really that cheap? please look here!!
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2010, 09:19:22 PM »
If you're losing combat, yes.
If you're being tank shocked, taking 25% shooting casualties, or being forced to make a leadership test, no.

Offline Raktra (So long, I guess)

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Re: Space Wolfss??? Are they really that cheap? please look here!!
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2010, 09:24:09 PM »
Automatic regrouping and normal actions next turn is gold. Though it's extremely unlikely, a unit of CSM could fail their check and fall back again.

Before it's pointed out, I know about the 6" rule. I have taken it into account, and my point still stands.

Offline unforgiven555

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Re: Space Wolfss??? Are they really that cheap? please look here!!
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2010, 09:31:46 PM »
Being tank shocked off an objective sucks.
A wolf guard helps, but then you're losing out on a second special weapon (so you're losing effectiveness in shooting).

ATSKNF is very good, better than rerollable LD10 I am not debating that.

GH are stuck at the midrange by their weapons choices. They are very good at what they do. The point I was trying to make was that they aren't very different from CSM. You deal with both units about the same way, and they function about the same. And undivided CSM can certainly be dealt with.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 09:33:47 PM by unforgiven555 »

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Re: Space Wolfss??? Are they really that cheap? please look here!!
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2010, 09:37:44 PM »
Why would you lose out a second special weapon? I've used 11 (12 if you include IC's joining them) man Grey Hunter units to hold home objectives. It gives me 6 plasma gun shots in one particular turn (7 if i've got the points to spare, or can Pistol's still rapid fire if they don't move? and 9 if i think i'm looking at a 10 man Terminator squad).

How do GH get two powerfists too? Unless you mean Pack Leaders, in which case fair play, but there's nothing stopping you from having 2 power fists AND 2 meltaguns/combi meltas (that is a very nasty unit indeed), except for wanting a transport that is.
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Offline Raktra (So long, I guess)

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Re: Space Wolfss??? Are they really that cheap? please look here!!
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2010, 09:57:38 PM »
@Unforgiven - Ah, we're in agreement then :)

@Swampy - Problem is, due to 5ths mechanised nature you'll most likely be wanting that transport  :-\ Footslogging can of course work, but it doesn't have the same clout, especially with Grey Hunters.

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Re: Space Wolfss??? Are they really that cheap? please look here!!
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2010, 10:12:02 PM »
True, but it depends on what you're doing with them. With an objective based game, I'll need something to sit on a home objective.

And with the aggressive nature of this game, there does tend to be a unit which darts forwards in Kill Points games (Drop Podding/Deep Striking Terminator Squads of Doom are popular round my ways), and a large non-mech unit tends to make short work of them, or at least hold them up and provide a distraction.
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Space Wolves Win Draw Loss - 5-3-0

Offline The Exile

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Re: Space Wolfss??? Are they really that cheap? please look here!!
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2010, 10:17:36 PM »
Footsloging Grey hunters are good if you attach a Wolf Guard Terminator with a cyclone missle launcher to the squad.  A nice objective holder and fire support unit.  Better than a normal tactical squad with a missle launcher by a long shot.  Can move and fire meaning the squad can creep towards an objective that may be outside the deployment zone.  Of course the Hunters would have a plasmagun(s).  Unfortunately this can't be done with every squad, but it does provide a nice alternative to the dull repetitive rhino trend on at least one squad. 

Offline unforgiven555

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Re: Space Wolfss??? Are they really that cheap? please look here!!
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2010, 12:32:31 AM »
Also alot more expensive than a normal tactical squad (which generally only needs to leave half of its guys on the objective anyways).

I think that grey hunters in rhinos is the way to go for standard missions. They want to get to the middle, to contest objectives, and they want to be protected from ordnance. At worst, it's a mobile wall.

I agree with the general consensus that wolf guard are very good. The cyclone guy goes with GH for capture and control, or else he can be very good support for long fangs.

It seems to me Long fangs with missile launchers for the most part do what obliterators do, but cheaper, at least in the current metagame. True, they don't have lash + plasmacannon, but they take out massed AV12 vehicles and most monstrous creatures just as effectively. Hence they are just better than most other heavy choices available to space marines in general, especially backed with living lightning support from rune priests. BA can only take 4, not 5 missiles, and can't split, also, unlike in space wolves, devastators will tend to be isolated and left behind in that army. UM devs are overpriced.

Since your army has very good midranged unit, in grey hunters, you equip them with meltaguns to take out any AV13+ vehicles that may be more problematic.

The way I see it, SW are a midrange army. Opposing armies can gain superiority either in close combat, or long range. They are good in shooting, they are good in close combat, but they aren't really amazing at either. SSTH terms are ridiculously costed, leaving thunderwolf calvary (basically 2 marines bikes) or wolf lord/fenrisian wolf units. Most armies should have units that can beat both (flamers for the wolves). They're competitive, not OP. If you fight them on your terms, not theirs, you should win.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 12:36:13 AM by unforgiven555 »

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Re: Space Wolves? Are they really that cheap? Please look here!
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2010, 08:31:43 AM »
I agree that its very useful to have a unit to hold the backfield, I've brought in a 5 man unit with a plasmagun (and a razorback) for this purpose. In my expansion to 2K I may well see about the missile termie as an addition to the unit, with the flexibility to stay on his own or instead join long fangs hes got a lot of potential flexibility I think.

BA can only take 4, not 5 missiles, and can't split, also, unlike in space wolves, devastators will tend to be isolated and left behind in that army. UM devs are overpriced.

They can potentially spilt via use of combat squads, plus its worth noting the advantage of having boltgun carrying mooks in the unit to take the hits. Long Fangs are great at giving damage out but they can't take it back, as soon as they take casualties you're directly losing their effectiveness. As far as isolation goes I'd say they're no worse off than the Space wolves version.
Like many of the units, they have things that make them better and things that make them worse.

The mis-pricing of heavy weapons in the vanillia marine devestators (and chaos havocs just to be inclusive) is something of an error with that book than a reflection on the LFs though, in many ways its a good think that GW have understood that heavy weapon marine squads are underpowered and are taking steps to fix that.
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