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1500 points Eldar army list. please give constructive criticism =)

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cherry ghost

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This is a fairly balanced list, so i've tried to cover all areas.

HQ

-Farseer
Doom
Guide
Spirit stones
Jetbike                           150 points


Troops

-10 Dire Avengers
-Exarch
2 shuriken catapults
bladestorm

-Wave Serpent
bright lances
spirit stones                        297 points


-3 jetbikes
shuriken cannon                  76 points   

-3 jetbikes
shuriken cannon                   76 points


Elites

-6 fire dragons

-wave serpent
bright lances
spirit stones                           241 points


-8 howling banshees
exarch
executioner
acrobatic                                  155 points


-8 harlequins
troupe master/powersword
shadowseer
4 harlequin kisses                      210 points


Heavy support

-3 war walkers
6 scatter lasers                           180 points


fire prism                                      115 points


 Grand total = 1500 points.


please critique...


 

Re: 1500 points Eldar army list. please give constructive criticism =)
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2009, 06:32:36 AM »
 

Freboy

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Well, I would say you have a problem in that you have assault units (harlies and banshees) and close range units (dragons) without transports.

Exchanging the Prism for a Falcon would give you something to carry the Dragons at least.

It might also be argued that you are a bit heavy on the close combat. Drop the harlies or banshees and get a Serpent for the other unit.

I don't use Jetbikes myself, so I will not comment on them specifically.
 

Re: 1500 points Eldar army list. please give constructive criticism =)
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2009, 07:34:37 AM »
 

cherry ghost

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hmm. well the fire dragons do have a wave serpent. and i was going for the idea of using terrain to keep the banshees and harlequins intact whilst footslogging towards the enemy.

i wanted to include a falcon, but there wasn't enough points =(

though i suppose i could reduce the squad numbers of the banshees, which would free up points and give them a falcon for transport, at the expense of the fire prism.

Also, i was trying to do an assault orientated army, hence the high amount of combat troops. My tactic was going to be to race up one flank with my cc troops and hold the other with the war walkers. The jetbikes, dire avengers and fire dragons will shoot enemy tanks, then move onto infantry. And the farseer will be flying about the place dooming units and possibly killing a tank. That was sort of the plan. but i'm not sure whether it would actually work...

anways, thanks for the comments
 

Re: 1500 points Eldar army list. please give constructive criticism =)
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2009, 08:47:49 AM »
 

Dunedain

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Banshees must have a wave serpent to be effective. it's pretty much a requirement.

I'd also advise fielding the seer with the banshees and getting the fortune psychic power.

I'd also strongly advise getting runes of warding.
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Re: 1500 points Eldar army list. please give constructive criticism =)
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2009, 08:54:02 AM »
 

Fenris

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Ok, first of the farseer:
I can't find a good way he would fit attached to any unit, and by himself he will be an easy target, I would probably drop the bike and stick him with the Avengers or bolster a unit of 9  jetbikes.

Guide well used on the walkers, but if a couple of weapons are lost on the walkers he will have little use of that power, The Avengers could take some advantage of it if he joins them, but generally still not worth the points, drop it or use fortune.

Next the 3 man jetbike units:
They are very small and will be shot down easily, could be nice for objective grabbing, but why then the cannon?, they will probably turboboost most of the time anyway.
A Vyper could get 2 shuriken cannons cheaper.

Fire dragons:
A small unit like this can fit in a falcon instead.

Banshees:
They really need a transport or they will be shot to pieces very fast.

Harlequins:
They will be fine on foot as long as they are veiled, watch their steps, I would also prefer a DJ, to shoot things that mostly can't return fire, especially if they get pinned by his weapon, 6 models are usually enough, unless facing hordes.

Fire prism:
Exchange this for a falcon, you won't loose much firepower and can transport a unit, mounting the firedragons in here would free up the serpent for the banshees.
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Re: 1500 points Eldar army list. please give constructive criticism =)
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2009, 09:16:40 AM »
 

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As has already been stated, the Howling Banshees are in dire need of a transport.  If you want a dismounted assault Aspect, Striking Scorpions are a much more survivable choice.

The jetbike squads are small and will die very quickly.  Honestly, I think you'd be better off combining them into a single squad of six, even though that would cost you a scoring unit.  The advantage is, you'd have two scoring units with a reasonable chance of survival, instead of three, one of which might survive.
I'd take it a step further and swap out Guide for Fortune on your Farseer, then attach him to the six Jetbikes, which will make them MUCH harder to kill (the Farseer will also survive longer).  You can still cast Doom on anything you like, the blast it with combined fire from the War Walkers, Dire Avengers, and the Jetbikes.   ;D
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Re: 1500 points Eldar army list. please give constructive criticism =)
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2009, 09:41:44 AM »
 

Freboy

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hmm. well the fire dragons do have a wave serpent. and i was going for the idea of using terrain to keep the banshees and harlequins intact whilst footslogging towards the enemy.

My bad. :)

i wanted to include a falcon, but there wasn't enough points =(

though i suppose i could reduce the squad numbers of the banshees, which would free up points and give them a falcon for transport, at the expense of the fire prism.

Well, in my opinion the Dragons need a transport too. So you could also put the banshees in the WS, and exchange the Prism for a Falcon for the Dragons. If you are short on points, don't take a falcon, take an extra WS instread. Speed is what you really need.

Also, i was trying to do an assault orientated army, hence the high amount of combat troops.

I see. Then I suggest getting as many CC units into transports as you can, and give the Avernger Exarch Defend. Run all the transports up one flank, put the CC transport into position and dismount the Avengers. Try to corner him, so that he must assault you. In the next round, before moving the transports you can dismount and charge into the fray. That I would say is and Eldar-ish cc style of play.

The thing is that many of our units are fragile, so you can't really afford sustained close combats. That's why I play shooty and sneaky. ;)
 

Re: 1500 points Eldar army list. please give constructive criticism =)
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2009, 10:26:22 AM »
 

Irisado

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I am afraid that the list isn't very well balanced in my opinion, so I feel you are going to have to make a fair amount of changes for it to be so.

Fielding the Farseer on a Jetbike is not viable in this list, since the squads are too small, and (s)he will be a very high priority target as a result.  I would only suggest mounting your Farseer on a Jetbike if you were to field a Jetbike mounted Seer Council, so I recommend attaching him/her to the Howling Banshees or a ground unit instead.

Guide also seems a strange choice of power in this list, so Fortune would be better in my view.  I would also consider adding Runes of Warding if you expect to face Marines or Chaos.

As others have pointed out, Howling Banshees do not work on foot.  Even if you can get them into cover, their low toughness, combined with their lack of ranged weaponry, and the fact that they are a high priority target for many players, means that they will not make it into combat without a transport in my experience.

A mechanised wing of Howling Banshees and Fire Dragons does not, however, have especially good synergy, so I definitely recommend keeping the Dire Avengers mounted in the Wave Serpent, as they will act as the link between these two elite Aspects.

The Fire Dragons are much better off staying in a Wave Serpent than being mounted in a Falcon in my view.  Experience has taught me that the Falcon is too expensive and too vulnerable to melta weapons relative to the Wave Serpent, making it a poor choice for transporting a short ranged unit, such as Fire Dragons.

I do not advise, however, giving their Wave Serpent Brightlances, as this will make it even more of a fire magnet than would normally be the case.  Shuriken Cannons are a safer (and cheaper) option in my opinion.

Your infantry element is simply far too weak, and any army with half decent assault units, or rapid fire, is going to punch through it without much difficulty.  You simply need more bodies, so I strongly suggest taking Striking Scorpions and pinning Dire Avengers as your front line, with two Guardian squads with Scatter Lasers as your second line, and suppport them with either the War Walkers, or a pair of Wraithlords, each armed with an EML and Brightlance, if you want more anti-tank, which could be advisable, depending on the opposition you are likely to face.

In order to make these changes, I suggest dropping the Harlequins (they are too fragile to fulfil the counter assault role in my view, cost too many points, and have background issues), the Fire Prism (these work better when fielded in pairs in my opinion, and duplicate the role of the War Walkers), and the Jetbike squads (these are easy kill points, when numbering three models, and lack the durability and firepower needed to take and hold objectives).

Overall, providing the Howling Banshees are mounted in a Wave Serpent, you mechanised wing looks promising, but at the moment, it could easily be ganged up on, or ignored or held up, depending on your opponent's army, as your infantry section constitutes no threat whatsoever, so this element of your army needs to be substantially improved if this list is to become balanced in my opinion.

I hope that helps.
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Re: 1500 points Eldar army list. please give constructive criticism =)
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2009, 04:58:27 PM »
 

Partninja

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I think others have already addressed most of the issues. However, one isssue was missed I think and that is your use of only one Prism. I suggest using them in pairs to link beams on the dissperssed shot. Otherwise, alone they are very lack luster and require more luck than anything.
 

Re: 1500 points Eldar army list. please give constructive criticism =)
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2009, 08:55:46 PM »
 

Preedy1978

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 The Harlies are fine. There's nothing in the slightest that's wrong with the fluff in taking a squad of them. They do tend to lend a helping hand once in a while. They're also one of the best footslogging counter-charging Eldar units in the game! They get a large amount of attacks and can cause rending on top of that. They're a handful. Yes, they are fragile. But with the amount of attacks that they get they should easily win most combats- and besides most Eldar units are fragile.


 Editing: The above sounds argumentative- I don't want to come across as such, so please don't take it as such, this is just my own opinion, and other players are certainly entitled to disagree with me.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 09:10:56 PM by Preedy1978 »
 

Re: 1500 points Eldar army list. please give constructive criticism =)
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2009, 05:37:32 AM »
 

cherry ghost

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cheers for all the advice, it seems like i'm going to have to go all mech/fast as my balanced army aproach doesn't really work.

ok, so here's my second attempt:

HQ
-farseer
spirit stones
fortune
doom
singing spear                  133

Troops
-10 dire avengers
exarch
2 catapults
bladestorm

wave serpent with shuri cannon                            252

-10 dire avengers
exarch
2 catapults
bladestorm

wave serpent with shuri cannon                            252

Elites
-8 banshees
exarch
executioner/mirrorswords (depends on the enemy)

wave serpent with shuri cannon and spirit stones              260

-6 fire dragons

wave serpent with shuri cannon and spirit stones              206

Fast attack

-6 swooping hawks
exarch
sunrifle
skyleap                                        168

-vyper
brightlance                                 75

Heavy support

-falcon with EML                        135

Total = 1481 points

so now i have 20 points spare, where do you suggest i use them?

Also, can a farseer use his powers whilst in a wave serpent? I've never used him in a wave serpent before so that question has never come up....
 

Re: 1500 points Eldar army list. please give constructive criticism =)
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2009, 05:54:14 AM »
 

Eidolon

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Im assuming you have other models or are willing to buy more.


HQ
-farseer
spirit stones
fortune
doom
singing spear                  133

NEEDS runes of warding. I think thats a requirement anymore for seers.

Troops
-10 dire avengers
exarch
2 catapults
bladestorm

wave serpent with shuri cannon                            252

-10 dire avengers
exarch
2 catapults
bladestorm

wave serpent with shuri cannon                            252

I would also recommend bright lances on these wave serpents, for anti raider.

Elites
-8 banshees
exarch
executioner/mirrorswords (depends on the enemy)

wave serpent with shuri cannon and spirit stones              260

Just stick with the executioner

-6 fire dragons

wave serpent with shuri cannon and spirit stones              206

This is good

Fast attack

-6 swooping hawks
exarch
sunrifle
skyleap                                        168

-vyper
brightlance                                 75

That lone vyper will die faster then a methed out dark eldar pilot with star engines in his raider, i would drop it

Heavy support

-falcon with EML                        135

If this isnt carrying anything, you could drop that dragon serpent and use this thing. Or buy a 5 man DAVU team for it. Holo fields are a must either way.

Total = 1481 points

so now i have 20 points spare, where do you suggest i use them?
 

Re: 1500 points Eldar army list. please give constructive criticism =)
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2009, 07:25:01 AM »
 

cherry ghost

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ok, if i swap the shuriken cannons for bright lances on the two wave serpents carrying the avengers, get rid of the vyper and the wave serpent carrying the fire dragons and use the falcon with holofields for transport i have 100 points spare. I'm thinking jetbike squad, as anything on foot wouldn't really suit the army.
 

Re: 1500 points Eldar army list. please give constructive criticism =)
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2009, 09:27:39 AM »
 

Preedy1978

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ok, if i swap the shuriken cannons for bright lances on the two wave serpents carrying the avengers, get rid of the vyper and the wave serpent carrying the fire dragons and use the falcon with holofields for transport i have 100 points spare. I'm thinking jetbike squad, as anything on foot wouldn't really suit the army.

 Sounds good, but if you do this, drop the Hawks- I'm all for their uses, but in this list, they're isolated.  A fair sized squad of Jetbikes (no fewer than six, really) will fit in nicely, and give you some more maneuverability. They're troops too, so they can also do a last minute objective snatch/ contest if they're still about near the end game. 
 

Re: 1500 points Eldar army list. please give constructive criticism =)
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2009, 10:42:30 AM »
 

Irisado

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The Harlies are fine. There's nothing in the slightest that's wrong with the fluff in taking a squad of them. They do tend to lend a helping hand once in a while.

Just to say briefly that unless you are playing a Craftworld with specific ties to the Harlequins, the chances that even if a single unit will turn up are very remote, unless you end up fighting Chaos, which is why I made the point about background.

Quote
They're also one of the best footslogging counter-charging Eldar units in the game! They get a large amount of attacks and can cause rending on top of that.

Their performance is actually not that much better than that of Striking Scorpions or Howling Banshees, except against a narrow selection of high toughness units, especially given that rending has been (mercifully in my view) toned down, so I think your analysis is rather fourth edition based.  In addition, reprisals make a very nasty mess of them if you are not careful.

Quote
Editing: The above sounds argumentative- I don't want to come across as such, so please don't take it as such, this is just my own opinion, and other players are certainly entitled to disagree with me.

I didn't think you were being argumentative, so no worries on that score  :).

To the revised list then:

It's much more cohesive, but there are a few areas which could be improved in my view.

Spirit Stones on all of the Wave Serpents is essential in my opinion.  You cannot afford for your attack to be fragmented by crew stunned results, since it lets your opponent pick of your units piecemeal, and the Eldar will enjoy that one bit in my experience.

Two more Howling Banshees would be helpful if you could find the points, as you really do need the maximum size of squad here in my experience, due to their fragility.

I strongly recommend keeping the Fire Dragons in the Wave Serpent, since it is more resistant to melta fire than the Falcon.

If you really want to take the Falcon, I suggest replacing one Dire Avenger squad with Storm Guardians with two Flamers and a Warlock with Destructor, and then mounting five Dire Avengers (no Exarch) in the Falcon, and using it as a mobile scoring unit (the DAVU).  If you do decide to opt for this plan, the Falcon will need Holofields in my view.

If this idea does not appeal to you, I suggest dropping the Falcon.

Swooping Hawks are very brittle and hard to use effectively.  This, combined with the fact that if they arrive early, they will be very exposed, given that everything else is mounted in a transport, means that I feel you would be better off dropping them.

The Vyper is a horrible piece of equipment when equipped with a one shot weapon, since it costs too many points and misses too regularly, so I suggest dropping it.

If you want some heavy support in this list, then I recommend two Fire Prisms or outflanking War Walkers, since they can really help to thin out opposing infantry, and if you take Brightlances on the Wave Serpents transporting the scoring units, then you will be able to use them as additional sources for anti-tank.

I don't recommend the Jetbike route in this particular list, unless you can take two units, as they are rather a soft target when deployed alongside all those Wave Serpents.

You could think about taking the Autarch as your second HQ if you want to employ the reserves strategy, but if that doesn't appeal, then he isn't required in my opinion.

Overall, this list is definitely an improvement, but I think it still needs to be toughened up, and to have more effective supporting units.

I hope that helps.
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Re: 1500 points Eldar army list. please give constructive criticism =)
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2009, 01:34:45 PM »
 

Preedy1978

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The Harlies are fine. There's nothing in the slightest that's wrong with the fluff in taking a squad of them. They do tend to lend a helping hand once in a while.

Just to say briefly that unless you are playing a Craftworld with specific ties to the Harlequins, the chances that even if a single unit will turn up are very remote, unless you end up fighting Chaos, which is why I made the point about background.

Quote
They're also one of the best footslogging counter-charging Eldar units in the game! They get a large amount of attacks and can cause rending on top of that.

Their performance is actually not that much better than that of Striking Scorpions or Howling Banshees, except against a narrow selection of high toughness units, especially given that rending has been (mercifully in my view) toned down, so I think your analysis is rather fourth edition based.  In addition, reprisals make a very nasty mess of them if you are not careful.




 Good points, but with regards to this, you could also say that Wraithlords are rare, and priceless to the Eldar craftworlds... they'd certainly not use them except under dire circumstances, unless fielded as part of an Iyanden force. Wraithguard too, are rare and treasured, and most certainly would not be risked if the stakes weren't high. Yet these units seem commonplace in peoples' army lists.   Although not a perfect comparison, it's a similar sort of thing, so it's not really unfeasible to have a squad of Harlequins come to the aid of a Craftworld in times of great peril (IMO). I'd agree more of them would show up if this was a confrontation with Chaos, especially Slaanesh orientated Chaos, but overall, I think fluff-wise, it's OK to field these.  Also on a side-note, there's a bit about them being closely allied with the outcasts of Lugganath- a unit of pathfinders or rangers and Harlequins working together such under this theme is rather fluffy, IMO.

 In regards to their counter-assault abilities. I think you underrate them. While Scorpions are most definitely more durable when being shot at, or hit in CC, the Harlequins unique abilities mean that your opponent just won't be shooting at them at all hardly. That's what makes them so darn useful as a footslogging counter-assault unit. I do agree though, they do need to be treated with care, and are fragile. But most Eldar units fit into the fragile category anyway. However, they all DO get their fixed saves- so they're actually more durable than others if facing power-weapon armed opponents. Plus, their rending may be toned down from 4th edition, but it's still rather useful. (I never did play 4th edition, so I have no idea how the rules went for it in that, sounds rather horrific). If you want more punch, then add a special character to the unit- however, I feel personally that adding other special characters to Harlequins isn't fluffy at all, and I only do this rarely.

 

Re: 1500 points Eldar army list. please give constructive criticism =)
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2009, 02:05:38 PM »
 

Irisado

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Yet these units seem commonplace in peoples' army lists.

Because they are Craftworld units, and Harlequins are not, they are a different army altogether.

Quote
Although not a perfect comparison, it's a similar sort of thing, so it's not really unfeasible to have a squad of Harlequins come to the aid of a Craftworld in times of great peril (IMO). I'd agree more of them would show up if this was a confrontation with Chaos, especially Slaanesh orientated Chaos, but overall, I think fluff-wise, it's OK to field these.  Also on a side-note, there's a bit about them being closely allied with the outcasts of Lugganath- a unit of pathfinders or rangers and Harlequins working together such under this theme is rather fluffy, IMO.

There are conflicting issues here, and I think you are mixing up two different parameters, but an explanation of this is way off topic, so please send me a PM if you want to know more.

Quote
In regards to their counter-assault abilities. I think you underrate them. While Scorpions are most definitely more durable when being shot at, or hit in CC, the Harlequins unique abilities mean that your opponent just won't be shooting at them at all hardly.

This is not necessarily the case, as hit and run may not get them out of trouble if your opponent has planned for it.  What is more, the defenders react rule has really hurt fragile hit and run units, as they take more hits in combat before they can disengage than was the case in fourth edition.

Quote
If you want more punch, then add a special character to the unit- however, I feel personally that adding other special characters to Harlequins isn't fluffy at all, and I only do this rarely.

I completely agree with you on that, and I would go as far to say you could only ever add a Harlequin character to a Harlequin unit, but again this is drifting off topic, so I won't elaborate further.

In a nutshell, however, now that this list has become fully mechanised, the argument has ceased to be pertinant, as no counter assault unit is necessary in a fully mechanised list in my view, so neither Harlequins, nor Striking Scorpions, are required, although the latter still could be used in a mechanised list in a different way.
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Re: 1500 points Eldar army list. please give constructive criticism =)
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2009, 02:20:29 PM »
 

Preedy1978

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 Yes, apologies to OP for getting this thread derailed. I'll send you a PM shortly, Irisado :)
 

 


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