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Eldar support weapons

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Eldar support weapons
« on: November 15, 2009, 06:27:00 PM »
 

scotatheist

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Does any one very use any support weapon batteries.

I never hear of these weapons being used, do they have their place, are they effective. ?

what tactics do you impliment them into. ?

I love the models and the concept therefore I would love to use them, only if they are reaosnably effective though.
 

Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2009, 06:30:03 PM »
 

Seer13

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Thy have one big minus the are static.
You can use them effectively but only in castle style army.
 

Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2009, 07:19:43 PM »
 

Irisado

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There was a very good thread discussing these a while back, but with the search engine being a bit 'clunky' at the moment, it could me some time to find it, but if I do, I will post a link to it.

Support Weapons can be useful, but the main problem with them is, as Seer13 points out, that they are static, which means they are only really going to work in Eldar armies which have a very strong fire base, and are broadly looking to Castle, or play a gun line with perhaps some kind of reserve Deep Strike or outflanking force to catch the opposition off balance.  Both of these strategies, however, rely on your opponent coming to you, and this is where the problems start, since if you end up facing Imperial Guard or Tau, they will just stay in their deployment zone and out shoot you, which is why I don't think Support Weapons, in general, work that well in army lists designed to take on all comers.

Shadow Weavers are not too bad, providing you attach them to a well defended fire base, since they have a long range, so you can make them work with more aggressive Eldar lists, providing you ensure that you don't end up fielding a polarised list.

D Cannons, however, have far too short a range for that option to be viable, so they would only work well if you know your opponent will come towards you.

As for Vibrocannons, they might shake the odd vehicle about a bit, but otherwise I don't feel that they are especially useful, so unless you really do want to play a gun line style Eldar army, I don't recommend making room for these.

I hope that helps.
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Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2009, 11:50:50 PM »
 

Galderon

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I agree with all of the above and add that the weapons are relatively expensive and equally ineffective.
If you want a gun line take a squadron of War Walkers and have a Farseer with "Guide" to accompany them. That way you have a mobile fire base that will cause players to stay behind cover.I describe War Walkers as "soap bubbles armed with bludgeons" they will beat the stuffing out of everything but will easily go "pop."

To be honest I cant see the logic or feasibility of having a support weapons squad for the Eldar.   
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Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2009, 12:26:00 AM »
 

Partninja

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I have used squads of shadow weavers in the past. A battery of three drops 3 cookies at S6. Seems appealing enough, but I always scattered too far to get enough wounds. They also take up a heavy slot. Prisms, at only 25pts more (Even without any upgrades) are more durable, have more range, infinitely better mobility, and have a better blast template.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 03:04:10 AM by Partninja »
 

Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2009, 03:36:00 AM »
 

Mr. Mayhem

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I agree with all the cons, but the D-Cannon can be so tempting...
 

Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2009, 04:57:42 AM »
 

Savatar

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I have a little pet project footslogging list ,that uses D canons with warlock for his BS .If i get first turn they move forward giving me an area denial ,if the cover isn't available the harlies are the screen.This can cover a few objectives and the avatar and two wraithlords are a suitable distraction up the centre .This forces the enemy strong flank to redeploy to my castled side.Eldrads redeployment abilities are essential for this though .
So not really effective as a unit but coupled with an overall strategy can work on limiting your opponents choices if he wants to avoid them. ;)
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Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2009, 04:00:11 PM »
 

Kite66

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I think they are a bit too expensive for what you get and the fact they fill a heavy slot, which kinda sucks because of all the other much better units that are there. (I blame poor organization in that, but I wasn't here for 4th ed). For a heavy slot you should be getting a str 6 ap anything gun and not -, to me a - in a heavy slot is stupid. D-cannon seems nice but pricy and short ranged for an immoblile unit. Vibro cannon seems crummy, might be useful against a green tide if the orks are a few inches from the cannon in a nice tightpacked line.

They don't feel like they can keep up with all the other heavy slots. Not for being immobile (don't feel that is a huge problem) but the fact every other heavy slot is far superior to them.
 

Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2009, 07:39:34 PM »
 

Neostrider

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Filling a heavy slot is the most expensive feature in my mind.  For point costs the D-cannons are an amazing investment.  They make short work of any Terminator squads, and can even take on almost any unit with ease.

It suffers from a few drawbacks that really hurt them however:

To be relatively accurate and useful you NEED the warlock for his BS 4 and support ability.  Embolden will keep the guns in the fight despite the odd lost man and Conceal can help when you're outside cover.  Also NEVER forget while taking shots to roll if a crewman was shot or if the gun was.  This sort of divided fire is hilarious because I've had lasguns bounce off the D-cannons and Las-cannons fry a lone guardian.

Which is my biggest problem with the whole unit.  As artillery, if they enter any terrain then there's a 1/6 chance the gun is destroyed.  Grrr.  I deploy them into terrain or give them conceal to keep the guns alive longer.

24" range is kinda short, but once you move off the table edge the gun starts to cover a lot more ground.I find they work best behind terrain (I believe they get cover saves for shooting through area terrain) with a clear alley forward and provide an advancing firebase to support a frontline.  If you moved the guns ALWAYS run the unit forward.  No point wasting a few crucial inches for a few catapult shots.

Question. The D-cannons are immobile?  where does it say there?
 

Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2009, 10:39:28 PM »
 

Partninja

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I have a little pet project footslogging list ,that uses D canons with warlock for his BS .

I was always under the impression that only the Guardian crew could fire the platform, not the warlock.
 

Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2009, 10:52:22 PM »
 

Kite66

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I have a little pet project footslogging list ,that uses D canons with warlock for his BS .

I was always under the impression that only the Guardian crew could fire the platform, not the warlock.

I've heard that too, makes sense why the lock can't shoot it.

Quote
The D-cannons are immobile?  where does it say there?
Sorry, I ment cannot move and shoot. D-cannon still has a small range for dumping 30 points while being fired from a BS 3 unit.

I do want to get some to screw around with though, maybe after using it I will like it like I do dark reapers. Except for the fact it still fills up a heavy slot and I love my wraithlords too much... :(
 

Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2009, 08:59:45 AM »
 

Gutstikk

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Attached ICs can't fire the gun, but you are always free to have any model that is part of an artillery unit fire the gun as per the artillery rules. This includes the warlock. There was discussion a while back about this, and those of us that looked it up were pleasantly surprised.

The shadow weaver can be quite useful when attacking hordes since cover gets determined by the center hole rather than the line between target and firing unit. So enemy units can't screen each other when being shot by the shadow weaver.
 

Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2009, 09:04:53 AM »
 

Savatar

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I have a little pet project footslogging list ,that uses D canons with warlock for his BS .

I was always under the impression that only the Guardian crew could fire the platform, not the warlock.

Under artillery,The unit. page55 it states additional models added to the unit my fire the gun though independant characters can not .The warlock is an upgrade to the crew so can  ;)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 09:06:31 AM by Savatar »
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Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2009, 01:04:56 PM »
 

FinRaziel

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At the moment, the weapons are crap.

The Spinners should be range 60, S6, rendeing, pinning, big template for 50pts, the D-cannon range 48, Sx (as today), AP1, ordnance at 65 ptsand the concept  of the vibro cannon is hard to maintain with the downgrade of glancing hits ...

Maybe it would help, if we were allowe to stick them onto a wraithlord again ... T8 D-Cannon with BS4 ... *dreammodeover*
 

Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2009, 01:27:17 PM »
 

Irisado

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The Spinners should be range 60, S6, rendeing, pinning, big template for 50pts, the D-cannon range 48, Sx (as today), AP1, ordnance at 65 pt

Perhaps they should make ice cream during the game for you to eat as well  ;).

The problem is not so much the stat line in my view, rather it is the lack of mobility, and the fact that the competition in the heavy support section is intense, so they are only going to be taken in tailored Eldar lists as a result.

Given that not all players may not face a wide range of opposing armies though, some players may still find a use for them, and they certainly are not as bad as you are making them out to be in my view, even if they certainly are one of the weaker options in the current Eldar Codex.
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Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2009, 10:41:02 PM »
 

hobo1430

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I agree that is seems the biggest drawback is they take-up a heavy slot.  But where else would they go?  Could you seem them as a troop choice?
 

Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2009, 11:04:28 PM »
 

Ail-Shan

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I could see being allowed to forgo a heavy weapon platform for an artillery platform(s) in guardian squads. They are mounted on anti grav platforms anyway so really Eldar artillery should be able to move and fire as assault weapons the same as guardian heavy weapon platforms can. Make the D-cannon have an effective 30" range which isn't too bad. I'm a fan of the lord mounted D-cannon though, as it makes a lot of sense.
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Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2009, 12:27:18 PM »
 

Gutstikk

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I agree that is seems the biggest drawback is they take-up a heavy slot.  But where else would they go?  Could you seem them as a troop choice?

Why yes, actually I can. I've playtested them as a troops choice available once you purchase a stormguardian team or defender team. This one change alone fixes almost any problems with the unit as a unit - it can start on the table in every scenario, and doesn't mind holding an objective; with fortune and cover or conceal they are quite resilient as scoring units.

It's actually brilliant and makes a lot more sense for weapons teams consisting of what are essentially field guns to be considered defensive troops.

Some other changes could also make them more effective but the troops option goes a long way to making them worthwhile.
 

Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2009, 06:09:07 PM »
 

Seer13

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Or give them S&P,and make them option for guardians.
 

Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2009, 09:16:57 PM »
 

Rathireon

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I like making army lists, the more unusual the better whilst still being effective.  I also like the look and potential of support platforms - a D-Cannon battery is just scary in theory, potentially being the most devastating unit in the whole Eldar armoury.  The drawbacks are the lack of mobility and terribly low survivability of the unit making them pitifully easy prey to deep striking enemies and such.

I really want these units to work though, so I try to fit them into an effective list... it doesn't work... the other Eldar heavy selections are too valuable.  Months later my previous attempt is a distant memory... ah support weapons I so want these to work... no, the other options are still too valuable.  Every once in a while I go through this same process... strangely, every single time the outcome is the same... no support weapons in my list.

If you want some fun and variety in your battles, then take them.  If you want that one in a hundred experience of seeing a Chaos Terminator squad and Daemon Prince all torn apart in one storm of warp powered devastation as only the Eldar can do, then take them.  If you want a consistently effective list, then forget it.

Edit: scratch that Daemon Prince, darn Eternal Warrior.  Let's say Khorne Lord with Bloodfeeder instead  ;D
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 10:06:06 PM by Rathireon »
 

 


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