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!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?

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!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
« on: October 13, 2002, 08:00:15 AM »
 

gazz

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 ???DOES ANYONE ANSWERING THIS KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM BASILISK? IF YOU DO PLEASE ANSWER!
they're good but were better

Eldar will have supreme !RULE!
 

Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2002, 08:13:47 AM »
 

liruisheng

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bwahaha! there is no defense!
*mimics basilisks batterys*
Boom! Boom! Whoooosh BANG! argh argh! dont kill us we surrender!

seriously though,
basilisks are always at the back, so best way is to deepstrike something to explode them. you gotta be able to do it in one turn though. cos at least my guard army isnt very far forward. so i just go "about face! fire!" and all the deep strikers go bang. or you could ignore them. heh heh. "what cannon? oh this cannon. it does nothing. dont worry. its like a griffon only it can fire 20 foot as ordnance and is as strong as a lascannon"
 

Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2002, 01:45:42 PM »
 

Maureth the Ranger

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He he he...stop a basilisk. I have 3 in my Imperial Guard Army. The only way someone ever stoped my Basilisk was by deepstriking a special character he had into them. After a turn he realized Commisar Yarrik was assaulting him and he ran away (volunteer fallback) a special rule we made up.
 

Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2002, 01:52:52 PM »
 

Val'Jean

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3 basilisks in an army? hmmm ....

Try putting fire dragons in a falcon and moving 24" a turn towards the offending tank. Even if it gets destroyed/stunned etc it's still going to be distracting the enemy from whatever else you have

(lets face it, anyone's gonna be worried if a tank is speeding towards your tank with some specialist anti-tank squad on board - and then your opponent will start making mistakes (hopefully)
Cheeky (adj): Often appended to the noun 'Monkey' (qv). The reasons for this are unclear, monkeys aren't really cheeky. They throw bananas at you, scratch their bottoms in public and snap off car ariels in safari parks. That's not cheeky - that's anarchy.
 

Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2002, 02:04:59 PM »
 

Maureth the Ranger

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After the fire dragons dissembark right in front of the basilisks they have to get through 5 lines of 20 Guardsmen in defensive Picket lines. 2 seconds after they touch the ground....Guardsmen FIRE!!!! Most likely 80 Rapid Fire shots reach the enemy....ha ha ha
 

Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2002, 03:26:40 PM »
 

Harlequin Solitaire

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Mwahahahaha! Puny imperial lapdogs! I'll just Deep-Strike my OBLITERATORS behind your weakling cannon and show it my Meltaguns and Lascannons! Blood for the Blood God!
"An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind" - Gandhi
 

Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2002, 03:36:58 PM »
 

Val'Jean

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After the fire dragons dissembark right in front of the basilisks they have to get through 5 lines of 20 Guardsmen in defensive Picket lines. 2 seconds after they touch the ground....Guardsmen FIRE!!!! Most likely 80 Rapid Fire shots reach the enemy....ha ha ha

....... 5 lines of 20 guardsmen in Picket lines?!? What scale battle are we talking about here? For that amount of points I could probably take 2 more waveserpents filled with scorpians/banshees to deal with the guardsmen.  We'd get to fire the Dragons first as well you know...

And in any case, if the Fire Dragons disembark in front of the Basilisk, how are you going to fit 100 guardsmen in between them and the tank?

Don't be so stupid in future please
« Last Edit: October 13, 2002, 03:40:10 PM by Spiritseer Besly »
Cheeky (adj): Often appended to the noun 'Monkey' (qv). The reasons for this are unclear, monkeys aren't really cheeky. They throw bananas at you, scratch their bottoms in public and snap off car ariels in safari parks. That's not cheeky - that's anarchy.
 

Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2002, 04:12:26 PM »
 

Culeagh

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Keep in mind that 100 guardsmen with lasguns only costs 500 points. It doesn't matter that they couldn't fit between the Basilisk and your AT squad, they have 24" range. You'll be looking at enough small arms fire to obliterate your dragons just as soon as they kill the transport with heavy weapons. Scorpions would be better (IMO) haywire grenades blow the crap out of tanks with less risk to the AT squad.

If you can't beat the basilisk just get within 36" of them. They can't indirect fire at that range and you can do the CTM trick with a vyper or falcon and a brightlance or pulse laser or whatever. Basilisks don't have very good armor. Waahm no more basilisk. If they have more than one, then you counter with multiple tank destroyer units.
 
You will all die.
 

Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2002, 04:25:20 PM »
 

Val'Jean

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I did also say the squad would have distraction value...

It would also be petty to point out that  500 pts could buy me 2 wave serpents with 2 fully kitted out squads of aspect warriors, but by saying that I just have so ignore it ...

I don't like antagonising people (this post isn't meant as anything but justification by the way) but what he said was annoying considering all the other possibilities there can be to defend/attack a tank.

I could just as easily start talking about 6 wave serpents full of aspect warriors (although I appreciate that's more points than 100 guardsmen) or about 3 wraithlords with brightlances.

A major factor of the game is that there are near-infinite possibilities of dealing with any type of enemy unit, and in playing the game what you are doing is exploring these possibilities. This then becomes the basis of tactics (method A works better than method B, therefore I will use method A to achieve X)

At least I'm trying to offer some form of advice to the origional question, constructive critisism (e.g. scorpians with haywire grenades would be better) is welcomed but just inventing a scenario to put what i said down is, as I said origionally, stupid.
Cheeky (adj): Often appended to the noun 'Monkey' (qv). The reasons for this are unclear, monkeys aren't really cheeky. They throw bananas at you, scratch their bottoms in public and snap off car ariels in safari parks. That's not cheeky - that's anarchy.
 

Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2002, 06:35:46 PM »
 

Maureth the Ranger

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Quote
Quote

....... 5 lines of 20 guardsmen in Picket lines?!? What scale battle are we talking about here? For that amount of points I could probably take 2 more waveserpents filled with scorpians/banshees to deal with the guardsmen.  We'd get to fire the Dragons first as well you know...

And in any case, if the Fire Dragons disembark in front of the Basilisk, how are you going to fit 100 guardsmen in between them and the tank?

Don't be so stupid in future please

Hey here's an idea, Hey Spiritseer Besly, why dont you stop being so stupid in the future....now there's an idea! Thanks Culeagh for clarifying that to Spiritseer Besly. And now that i think about it scorpions wold tear through the lines, and then destroy the basilisks. The problem is that min. of 36" is only for indirect fire, not the regular setting
 

Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2002, 09:41:01 AM »
 

Silent_runner

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Besly - you just keep right on going.

Maureth - Grow up child.

As an actual suggestion.....

I'm not sure how well this would work, the only Basilisk that I've come up against was one looted by Orks! However - I managed to get rid of it by getting to a piece of cover within 36" with my favourite Shining Spear kill team (3 models, one of them an Exarch with Evade and Skilfull rider) as fast as I could - I then hopped out 6" in the movement, fired (characters can't block line of sight to vehicles - so the hundreds of orks in the way made no difference) and then used the 6" move during the assault phase to get back under cover. It did take two turns before I got a penetrating hit , and even then it didn't blow up - but "weapon destroyed" was enough to be getting on with. If you manage to get the side armour then you only need a 2 for a glancing hit and 3+ penetrates - so a fork attack on it is quite useful - the unit approaching from the front doesn't really need to fire, just threaten so that, whichever way he turns, one of the units will get the side armour.

You could use a Falcon in the same way using the Crystal Targetting Matrix to move-fire-move to stay under cover - but Falcons are more difficult to hide that Shining Spears.

If you come up against three of them - good luck, 'cos you're going to need it! Just hope that, after he's spent all that time, effort and money on the figures, he keeps his troops close to them to try and protect them! that way you shouldn't have to get into close combat or (if the terrain's favourable) let him shoot you either.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2002, 02:57:41 PM by Silent_runner »
"Powergamers of the world unite, you have nothing to lose....." end of quote - that's it - you just have nothing to lose - so go out and win everything just to tee off all the "Yoghurt Weavers".
 

Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2002, 02:40:36 PM »
 

Culeagh

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Direct fire basilisks can't shoot what they can't see unless they get a lucky scatter. If you get within 36" they more than likely won't be able to hit your CTM vyper, CTM falcon, Shining Spear Exarch or whatever

Besly, I wasn't trying to refute your suggestion (that means I wasn't trying to crap on it). My intent was to point out the glaring weakness of rushing a lone wave serpent at IG. It is costly and pointless. They won't be distracted for more than the time it takes to fire half a dozen autocannons.

Dragons might work if you get lucky (they can get two of them in one go, scorps can't), scorpions might work if you get lucky. Both of them will probably get gunned down by infantry unless they can kill the Basilisk and then get into an hand-to-hand post haste. Scorpions are, by far, better at killing guardsmen in hand-to-hand, that is why I suggested them. If they live they will be more effective and they have a better chance of living because of the better armor.

You will all die.
 

Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2002, 07:03:07 PM »
 

Maureth the Ranger

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Hey just an example, Silent_Runner, if three Shining Spears tried to charge alone into my basilisk battery, they would be Eldar Toast. First shining Spears aren't even that good (unless used correctly), and alone they down right suck! I dont know if you had plans for other things to back them up but alone as I said earlier they're dead. Just a little friendly piece of advice.
 

Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2002, 07:27:41 PM »
 

Silent_runner

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OK Maureth, font of all wisdom, three Shining Spears, one of whom is an Exarch equiped with Skilfull Rider, Evade and a Bright Lance.

The group rush forward not, as you seem to think, straight at the Basilisk, but towards intervening cover. At the point that they are within range (36" for the Bright Lance, which just happens to bring them within the minimum range for indirect fire from the Basilisk) they pop out from behind cover, but no more than 6" - just enough to see the the target, fire and, during the assault phase, drop back into cover.

Assuming that they've managed to actually get within range - which, with guess range, scatter and 3+ save (3+ invulnerable for the Exarch) is quite likely. Let's say that I roll badly on the first attempt. I drop back into cover. Hmm - your go - Oh look - no target - what a shame.

Go two. Well let's see - 2+ to hit (5 in 6 odds is pretty good). Strength 8 against armour 12 means I need a 4 for a glance and 5+ to penetrate. If I manage to get to the side armour, then I need a 2 to glance and 2+ to penetrate.

Who said anything about charging - I play Eldar - which means I need a plan, not just charge blindly forward.

In future come out with a reasoned argument - not "Nah Wah - I'll beat you - bang bang you're dead" comments - it just makes you look about 12.

Oh - and don't forget, I've detailed the Shining Spears as "Tank Busters" - the rest of my force needs to be dealt with - and if you want to concentrate all of it's fire on one small unit (one of the ones with a good chance of surviving) - that's OK too - that frees the rest up!
« Last Edit: October 14, 2002, 07:32:46 PM by Silent_runner »
"Powergamers of the world unite, you have nothing to lose....." end of quote - that's it - you just have nothing to lose - so go out and win everything just to tee off all the "Yoghurt Weavers".
 

Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2002, 07:58:13 PM »
 

Maureth the Ranger

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Ok, one, i am not the all knowful. Neither are you though but you do have, lets see you're 41 and playing warhammerminus 14 and oops, you have a good 27 years on me. OK number two, basilisks have AP  3 so ur regular shining spears wouldnt get an armour save although ur exarch would. Third I believe (not sure) that ur SP are toughness 4 and thus wouldnt get an armour save. Fourth please stop with the god damn sinical remarks! I was just trying to give the guy my answer!!!!
 

Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2002, 09:05:16 PM »
 

spacepiper

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Step 1: Buy 4x Wolf Scouts (1 w/ Meltagun)
Step 2: Convert a Grey Hunter in a Wolf Guard Leader, with Chainfist and Bolter-Melta
Step 3: Put behind enemy lines
Step 4: Enjoy.
“The ends you serve that are selfish will take you no further than yourself: but the ends you serve that are for all, in common, will take you into eternity.” –Marcus Garvey

 

Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2002, 04:01:46 AM »
 

Silent_runner

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Eldar Tactics.

The following comments are made to show one method of working out how to take a tough unit out.

When it comes down to it, it works like this (trying to cut through all the various comments!).

The Basilisk can hit you anywhere on the board even if you’re behind cover and, as Maureth rightly points out AP3 would knock out the saves of all but invulnerable ones (apart from things like Terminators obviously) and ignoring his comment about toughness which is null – how can you reduce the advantages and what weaknesses are there to be exploited and how?

First we need to work out how to survive….

1)   Speed. The Basilisk is basically immobile. Don’t hang around. To fight immobile shooters you either need to very hard indeed (which the Eldar aren’t) or to keep moving. Don’t stay at the same range as you were the turn before otherwise he’ll zero in. Likewise don’t move directly towards or away from it, as this will allow him to easily add/subtract your movement to/from the previous guess. Diagonal moves are best to increase your chances against guess weapons ("You zig, I'll zag").

2)   Saving throws. With the Shining Spear example, given earlier, I suggested giving the Exarch an invulnerable save – this is a must in this case. For the non-Exarchs the only save they’re going to get is cover saves – so keep jumping from cover to cover if you can.

3)   Scatter. With a small unit it is better to keep them in a tight formation. Large groups should be spread out as much as possible. The reason for this is that with a small group (such as three Shining Spears) any casualties would cause morale checks and, due to scatter, a small tight formation stands the best chance of being missed all together ("a small tight formation stands the best chance of being missed" - Police Squad). Conversely, a large unit is likely to get hit anyway; so spreading them out reduces the number that are under the template. Additionally, don’t clump your units together unless you really have to. There’s nothing more inviting to him than three units that will all fit under the one template.

Edit:-

Addition to the above! Small units should be grouped closely together only if you expect that your opponent will be using the large template against you! When the smaller one is used, it is still better to spread the unit out. The reason for this is, again, scatter - or rather the lack of it. When the small template comes into play all the opponent does is roll to hit and then places the template - a small unit could get seriously damaged this way.

Secondly identify its weaknesses

1)   Guess/Scatter. As detailed above – inaccuracy. No matter how good his guessing is (and I’ve been up against some pretty accurate distance estimators myself) the template has a damn good chance of scattering.

2)   Minimum Range. He can’t shoot indirectly under 36” range, so close the range down as fast as you can and kill it. Assuming a standard war gaming table size of 6’ by 4’, even assuming that you are fighting corner to corner, this gives a maximum range of 7’ 2.5”. Assuming that you’re using 18” deployment zones, then you can knock off about 2’. Of the rest of the distance, 18” can be covered in the first move leaving you just outside his minimum range – survive one barrage and that’s it. Waveserpents, Falcons and Fire Prisms (all easily able to take him out) would be able to get within the minimum range in one move.

If you are fighting across the table then, once you’ve deployed, you’ll be within his minimum range anyway.

3)   Direct Fire. Once within his minimum range he can only hit what he can see – so don’t let him see you. This is difficult if he has multiple Basilisks but, even then, is not necessarily impossible. What Maureth chooses to ignore (possibly because the opponents that he has been up against charge straight at him) is that even if he needed a 1+ to hit with a strength 99 AP1 attack, if he can’t see you, you’re safe. So don’t let him.

Thirdly identify your strengths.

1)   Manoeuvrability. All of the Eldar vehicles, when properly equipped, can move/fire/move, so use this to make sure that, if you fail to knock out the Basilisk, you’ll still be in cover when it comes to his turn.

Well, that’s all I have to say regarding killing them with Eldar – I’m not actually sure that an Eldar army would be the best choice, but it’s not bad.

Finally -"knowful" is not a word, it's "Cynical" not "Sinical" and giving the guy an answer that amounts to "don't bother, if you try it on me I'll just blow you away" is not helpful.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2002, 05:34:26 AM by Silent_runner »
"Powergamers of the world unite, you have nothing to lose....." end of quote - that's it - you just have nothing to lose - so go out and win everything just to tee off all the "Yoghurt Weavers".
 

Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2002, 11:20:40 AM »
 

Val'Jean

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Hey here's an idea, Hey Spiritseer Besly, why dont you stop being so stupid in the future....now there's an idea! Thanks Culeagh for clarifying that to Spiritseer Besly. And now that i think about it scorpions wold tear through the lines, and then destroy the basilisks. The problem is that min. of 36" is only for indirect fire, not the regular setting

My what an argument has broken out in my absence!

First off - Maureth:

1. Grow up - your "Hey here's an idea, *YOU* stop being stupid" post is one of the most immature I've ever seen on this site". (learn to spell as well please, its all very well trying to use 'clever' words like cynical but it doesn't look so good if you don't spell them right)
2. Listen to Silent_Runner. He obviously knows what he's talking about and has some good tactical advice for whoever first started this post.

Culeagh:

It was a suggestion, I've never played Basilisks before, but as I said, constructive critisism is fine - i bow to your logic and reasoning with the scorpians - but I did know what refute meant without needing to be told....

EDIT: Having read over the post I have decided it looks too much like a "I'm gonna keep arguing until I win" post, however it needed to be said. Maureth, if you just stop writing "I'm gonna kill u all BANG BANG"-style posts, I won't flame them. I don't really want to post-to-insult/argue, it's a lot more fun discussing ideas and tactics here.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2002, 11:37:29 AM by Spiritseer Besly »
Cheeky (adj): Often appended to the noun 'Monkey' (qv). The reasons for this are unclear, monkeys aren't really cheeky. They throw bananas at you, scratch their bottoms in public and snap off car ariels in safari parks. That's not cheeky - that's anarchy.
 

Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2002, 04:35:38 PM »
 

Culeagh

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Besly, Sorry. I wanted to make sure everyone knew what the word meant.

Wraithguard wouldn't be a bad unit to give it a try with.

A couple of wraithlords to draw the fire of the basilisks and shoot missile launchers (extra range helps, plasma missiles kill IG infantry dead). A couple of serpents with star engines full of fortuned wraithguard (by the farseers before the tanks are loaded) could boost max range into the guard lines tank shocking infantry units without AT weapon (so they can't blast the serpents). Once your in, the serpents will probably get popped by heavy weapons but the wraithguard are fortuned so they probably won't get killed in the crash. Then they shoot the basilisks that are in range of the wraithcannons and in the assault phase charge a heavy weapons squad, who'll have a hard time hurting them. They work their way over to another basilisk and try to kill it. The good thing (in this case) about wraithguard in CC is that they take a long time to kill stuff so they probably won't end up in front of the guns for a turn or two and will be tying up all kinds of infantry (who can barely hurt them).

Meanwhile the rest of the army (and Silent Runners spears) are taking pot shots from cover as the bulk of the force advances into shurikat range...

You will all die.
 

Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2002, 07:01:18 PM »
 

anakha

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My my, aren't some of us getting up on the wrong side of the bed!
As a devoted gamer, i would like to read the suggestions of how to deal with certain sticky situations, not the bickering of little kids fighting about the best tactics in the style of "I'm better, I'm right, you're wrong, you're stupid etc", especially you Maureth.
If you don't agree with something you don't just spit the dummy and call them stupid. You be mature and either shut your mouth (in context) or offer another, better suggestion. Case in point.
Facts are chains that bind perception and fetter truth. For a man can remake the world if he has a dream and no facts to cloud his mind.

In theory, there is no difference between practice and theory.
In practice however......

I found a document that proves uniforms are cool, only it was written in the 1930's and the writing was in German.

Spread the disease!
http://warpnight.proboards23.com/index.cgi
Help it off the ground!
 

 


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