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Stubborn, the new fearless?

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Stubborn, the new fearless?
« on: March 27, 2009, 12:45:46 PM »
 

Hymirl, Space Machine!

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Hi guys, its time for a chat about the changing face of 40K.

Having had the oppotunity to read though the guard codex recently and checking out the new commissar rules it looks like we're going full circle again with efforts to bypass the morale system. Currently stubborn is all over it like rending on a 4th edition marine codex.

At this stage I'm not sure where exactly its going, sure stubborn works reasonably well in WFB where combat resolution has long since handed out massive penalties for losing combat (as well as outnumbering which was recently removed). But like fearless was in 3rd is it just becoming too common a solution, a quick an easy fix for the flavour of the month? As a way of tarpitting units in combat its without compare as fearless will see a unit that consistently loses combat to be whittled away by no retreat saves...

And of course the question is where is it going to stop? Are Tau Etherals going to be encouraging die hard fanatism in fire warriors? Necrons aren't the panic and cry sort naturally... I don't have an issue with a special rule, only with one that becomes so common its not special anymore.

Already it seems that all big girbbly things are immune to instant death meaning that the biggest thing a Libarian can fancy slicing with his force sword is an Orgyn or something... hardly an epic foe worthy of song and dance. And yet many players seem to want this to continue further; "Calgar is immune to instant death! Why isn't my general/warboss/shas'thingo immune too..."


While fix it with a special rule is a traditional design philosphy it is odd that its occouring so fast so quickly into 5th edition, the creep of special rules that spawned the USR theory took a long time to occour in 3rd ed 40K. Thoughts and feelings?
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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2009, 12:58:47 PM »
 

Wyddr

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I haven't seen the new IG book, so I can't comment on that angle of it, but in general I do agree that this is a problem, especially as it applies to morale. In 4th Edition, morale was easily the least important part of the game, since everybody and their cousin had some way of making their units fearless or nearly so. With the advent of 5th Edition, I was pleased to see that all those fearless enemies out there might have to start paying for the fact that they could ignore a statistic on their sheet *and* that those folks who weren't fearless would be suffering slightly more in the CC phase when they were getting beat down. Now, with the introduction of Stubborn and (if Hymirl is right) the spread of that rule, we are coming full circle again until I will soon be able to write off the morale part of the game again.

As for the instant death thing, I find that Eternal Warrior or its proxies are so common as to make anything causing instant death worthless. Honestly, there are very, very few enemies out there worth instakilling that you actually *can* instakill. Let's see here:

Stuff Wyddr Thinks is Worth Instakilling:
Tyranid Monstrous Creatures
Daemon Princes
Wraithlords
The Avatar
Talos
Greater Daemons

Stuff You Can Actually Instakill From List Above:
Wraithlords and Talos (sort of--you need and Force Weapon, a Strength bump, some kind of special rule, or some mix of the three)
Greater Daemons (which, of all things, should be the one thing you *can't* instakill)

This makes instakilling a completely worthless special rule for just about anybody, unless you happen to need to kill the odd Chaos Spawn, Nob, or Ogryn in a hurry.

Don't even get me started and the virtual worthlessness of pinning, either...
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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2009, 01:25:03 PM »
 

Raktra (So long, I guess)

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You can't insta-kill a GD, unless you mean the generic crap bags in the Chaos Marine codex?
 

Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2009, 01:30:56 PM »
 

Wyddr

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You can't insta-kill a GD, unless you mean the generic crap bags in the Chaos Marine codex?

Crap-bags, actually (never played deamons and know of no one who plays them). It is worth noting, however, that GDs elsewhere can't be instakilled. Just making that force weapon all the more worthless, aren't we?

Also: I don't mean to threadjack. We were talking about the increasing numbers of stubborn folk out there.
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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2009, 01:33:12 PM »
 

Benis

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it is hugely dissatisfying that morale hasn't played an important part since 2nd edition. Most races should be susceptible to morale damage, not only Guard and non-Ethereal Tau. Personally, I would like to see more general morale attacks, like Fear and Panic.

The increase of special rules that cancel out other special rules is quite unwanted if you ask me.
The point of Instant Death was that powerful attacks should inflict a greater damage; it's not the same to be shot by a laspistol as it is to be hit by Multi-melta, and since GW removed the potential for weapons to cause multiple wounds there is no such way except Instant Death. For me, the only creatures that deserves such a rule as Eternal Warrior is Greater Daemons, Avatars, Tyrants and some special characters (Phoenix Lords etc.). Anyway, I would much rather see that powerful weapons had the potential to cause additional wounds even if they aren't double toughness.
 

Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2009, 01:34:06 PM »
 

Raktra (So long, I guess)

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Agreed on both points!

Stubborn is certainly looking sexy, but, if we are to take the Marine Codex as our 5th ed template, I think that Calgar's God of War ability may end up appearing more and more (Inquisitors and the like). It's better than Fearless/ Stubborn and Combat Tactics combined.
 

Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2009, 01:38:11 PM »
 

Spirit of Kurnous

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pinning has its effect though if your oppo rolls high enough or facing guard squads ;)
I dont like that marines get vet sgts on everybody, bad enough they got ATSKNF but now they are all ld9 with it too which is what chaos marines used to get instead of ATSKNF.  even a guard player complained to me the other day that ld7 is crap, and I'm like thats average and right for humans but hes right in 40k it is crap, marines have ATSKNF, orks have mod rules, chaos are mostly fearless, sisters and the like probably are too, tau get their ethereals effects.
i think the 2 biggest armies effected by morale effects are guard and eldar but even they can mitigate it somewhat.  guard have commissars and eldar can huddle round the avatar.  so people are right, morale in 40k is pretty much being thrown out the window.
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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2009, 03:19:08 PM »
 

Lorizael

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i think the 2 biggest armies effected by morale effects are guard and eldar but even they can mitigate it somewhat.  guard have commissars and eldar can huddle round the avatar.  so people are right, morale in 40k is pretty much being thrown out the window.

Eldar have basic Ld8 with all aspects at 9. So they don't care much about morale either.
It's a pretty useless stat to be honest. As others have said; when 5th appeared and we saw the Ld modifiers for losing combat it made sense and was definitely a good addition. Stubborn is also fine as a rule, as long as it's spread around a bit.
If a Commisar can make basic humans stubborn then you'd think most of the other races in the 40K galaxy should have it also.
Commissars were fine with just shooting the squad leader. It was an effective way of keeping a squad on the field.
 

Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2009, 04:19:33 PM »
 

Andro Ist Keine Schwedischen

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Leadership was useful in 4th edition, what with target priorities.  Now it's a dump stat that's only used every now and again (like Charisma in D&D).

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2009, 04:46:25 PM »
 

Awfully Dandy

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I love morale. Personnaly I think the morale systtem in WHFB is far more realsitic and does encourage a more tactical game. The only people nwho should be reall f fearless are some marines, the oddd eldar guys, nids and of course the crons. Everyone should have to take morale.
 

Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2009, 04:46:42 PM »
 

erloas

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Leadership was useful in 4th edition, what with target priorities.  Now it's a dump stat that's only used every now and again (like Charisma in D&D).

~Andromidius

Maybe, but unlike D&D you aren't really paying anything for LD.  LD is built into the cost of the unit given how important LD is.  Just like the old dark elf assassin having a BS9 wasn't a stat they had to pay for because they could never take a ranged weapon, and there are a lot of other examples of the same sort of thing.  If there is a fearless unit they could give it a base LD of 2 or 12 and it wouldn't make a difference, so they aren't going to charge them for LD10 on top of the points they paid for fearless in the first place.

I also don't see stubborn* making LD that much less important, it doesn't change what you need to roll for panic for taking wounds, it doesn't change being tank shocked or LD based on enemy special abilities.  All it does is means a side that looses combat is less likely to run away from that combat.  In many cases this isn't really going to help much, because a guard unit is just going to die more the next turn of combat as well.  I actually see it as more of a liability to guard then an advantage, it just means they are likely to hold when charged by a CC unit, meaning the combat drags into the guard players turn and then he can't shoot at that CC unit because its tied into combat.

*I'm assuming stubborn is exactly the same as in fantasy, I don't actually remember it every coming up in any games of 40k yet so I've kind of forgot if the 40k version is different.


I also know that high LD doesn't mean you can't fail, it just makes it less likely.  I know all too well with my Dark Elves that even taking a basic panic check on LD9 will find things running (or standing still doing nothing) now and again.  It doesn't have to happen all the time to make the ability that causes the test worth while. 

LD has always been something that is only supposed come up now and again, its supposed to add some chance to the game without making a win or a loss based on random chance.
 

Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2009, 04:49:27 PM »
 

NewHeretic

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I agree that such USRs shouldn't be spammed across all of the codecies and that Leadership has been castrated as a useful unit statistic (especially with respect to Pinning), but I want to clarify something Raktra said (I misunderstood).  :-\

Only two(?) of the Space Marine Special Characters have God of War (Eternal Warrior) in the new codex and the Admantine Mantle has been removed as a Wargear option.  So, with the exception of the older BT, BA, SW, and BA codecies, Space Marines now have only very limited options when seeking immunity to Instant Death.

NewHeretic
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 12:03:06 AM by NewHeretic »
Good advice from Joshua:

Choose you this day
Whom you will serve...
As for me and my house,
We will serve the Lord.

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2009, 04:53:41 PM »
 

Raktra (So long, I guess)

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New, I never said most of that...

Only Calgar gets the rule, and I never mentioned the other Codices...
 

Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2009, 04:54:20 PM »
 

Benis

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Only two(?) of the Space Marine Special Characters have God of War in the new codex and the Admantine Mantle has been removed as a Wargear option.

You mean Eternal Warrior not God of War. God of War is what Calgar has instead of Combat Tactics and Rites of Battle.
 

Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2009, 12:04:45 AM »
 

NewHeretic

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Only two(?) of the Space Marine Special Characters have God of War in the new codex and the Admantine Mantle has been removed as a Wargear option.

You mean Eternal Warrior not God of War. God of War is what Calgar has instead of Combat Tactics and Rites of Battle.

@ Raktra:
  My mistake.  Benis has it right.  I'm sorry for falsely interpreting your post.  :-\

NewHeretic
Good advice from Joshua:

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Whom you will serve...
As for me and my house,
We will serve the Lord.

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2009, 11:26:13 PM »
 

Skankin_Catachan

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as a guard player i thought morale was a very important part to my army. It kept my grunts close to their platoon leaders for ld boosts and made me think twice about charging into enemy units. Now with the game-wide use of fearless,stubborn, and ld 10 it makes the game a little predictable. I am overhwhlemed when i actaully pin a squad with my mortars, or when an enemy squad falls off the table (usually thats me).

i feel stubborn is a lot more interesting than just bumping ld to 10. for IG, most morale checks will be on 8, and stubborn on 8 isn't all that bad. all it does is gives a few units in the new dex some tarpitting ability. commisars used to make units ld10, when it comes to shooting, we're losing out now.

as for stubborn space marines, thats just not fair.
 

Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2009, 11:19:06 PM »
 

Seraph Kast

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Marines are better than Stubborn, or Fearless.  The ability to auto-fail and try and fall back with no risk of getting swept and little chance of taking much damage from fearless wounds is amazing.  More than worth the occasional risk of breaking in combat, not getting swept, and actually falling back at the end of your own turn.  Not to mention Ld 9 across the board now.
 

Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2009, 11:47:43 PM »
 

Frowny

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I'm pretty ok with the things that can and can't be instakilled. It doesn't make sence to me that a little man with a sword could kill a massive monster in one blow, even if its force. The little man can barely reach the tops of some of their legs! I like that they removed adamantine mantle, and that almost all infantry characters can be instagibbed. I could see weapons doing extra wounds though. Maybe an extra wound is caused for each 3-4 str the weapon is over the target? So a lascannon could do 2 wounds to a carnifex etc. Some of the rules are that way purely for balance reasons though. Nid Warriors would be largely unplayable if they could be instakilled.

As for leadership, it is definitely messed up. Too much fearlessness, and fearlessness hurting the things it should be great for. Tyranid swarms are basically unplayable because fearlessness results in massive squad deaths, including the deaths of their betters, even though this is exactly what should not be happening.

The one I hate most though is pinning. I don't care if your fearless. Pinning is about keeping the target hiding because if they move, the get blown up/shot. Think of paintball or something. You can be as brave as you want and it doesn't matter if there are bombs going off all around you. Its intelligence, not fearlessness that keeps you down. Maybe make it so that all units must test, and if they pass, they can either choose to stay down or go forward and take extra hits or something, maybe one per model hit originally or 1/model in the squad. It rewards high leaderships still, and means that tough targets can naturally run through bombs without worrying, while wusses will both want and need to stay down. Maybe even make the fearless ones autopass, and then still have that choice to run forward and get hit or get down. Makes you gauge how dangerous it is to go on and adds tactical play?

Most pinning weapons are essentially useless for their pinning, so this maybe gives them a needed boost, although a point rise of 1 or so might also be in order
 

Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2009, 12:43:55 AM »
 

Seraph Kast

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The one I hate most though is pinning. I don't care if your fearless. Pinning is about keeping the target hiding because if they move, the get blown up/shot. Think of paintball or something. You can be as brave as you want and it doesn't matter if there are bombs going off all around you. Its intelligence, not fearlessness that keeps you down. Maybe make it so that all units must test, and if they pass, they can either choose to stay down or go forward and take extra hits or something, maybe one per model hit originally or 1/model in the squad. It rewards high leaderships still, and means that tough targets can naturally run through bombs without worrying, while wusses will both want and need to stay down. Maybe even make the fearless ones autopass, and then still have that choice to run forward and get hit or get down. Makes you gauge how dangerous it is to go on and adds tactical play?

Part of fearlessness too would be realizing that despite the danger to yourself, you have a better reason to keep going.  My Deathwing don't particularly care about any pinning weapons besides Sniper Rifles.  Tau Pulse Carbines, Earthshaker rounds...all are pretty unlikely to even harm them.  Chaplain squads are on the verge of a frenzy, ready to fight anything to the death and are heedless of their own danger.  Nids are literally being remote controlled by a greater power that doesn't give a crap if they die.  I'm pretty okay with fearless ignoring pinning. 

I would like to see more stuff be instakillable.  By Force Weapons/Wraithcannons and the like at least.  I don't care how much armor you have, if the guy in a powersuit runs up and rips your soul (or equivalent!) out and fries your entire nervous system, you're dead.  Same goes for having chunks of your body ripped free by tiny warp holes.  More serious morale systems would be nice too, on one hand...but on the other, I don't want to see every game decided by my opponents squads all running off the table in a panic.  I love that aspect of Fantasy, and I think it's great.  In 40k though, I think I prefer the close range firefights and bloody combats to single decisive shooting phases and the charge turn being nearly everything.  Watching one poor sergeant try to powerfist down a Dreadnought, or having squads of guardsmen be overrun by bugs is cool, too.
 

Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2009, 02:46:39 AM »
 

Frowny

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I guess I'm suggesting that pinning cause something other then just holding down the heads of poor morale troops. Yes, you can keep going no problem, esp if its something not deadly (snipers to marines), but they should be shot for it... like running at the snipers in the open in real life. Fearless could auto pass the test, but doesn't let you avoid taking hits (even ineffective ones) as you continue forward.

I do agree that having everything always running away is not quite as fun. I think they are currently doing ok on having it be something considered, but not game dominating. A bit too much fearlessness and equivalents has taken some of that away, just as stubborness may. Guard sort of have it right, as you have to consider it, and can do things about it, but squads still run. I guess I only see a problem with marines, mostly as there are too many ppl playing them, making their high ld. and crazy special rules seem like they apply to everyone.

Some things definitely have it that don't need it, I think. Like terminators. They are already plenty awesome, and if something rightly can beat them in combat, they should be scared. I understand they are heroes, higher ld and all that, but don't need to be fearless. In some ways, good stats make up for ld, as awesome stats make it less likely you will lose/ need to test for ld. in the first place. We just never see this effect, because they are already fearless. In that sense, Ld all around could be dropped a bit.
 

 


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