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Author Topic: "...may replace Boltgun and/or Bolt Pistol with..."  (Read 1011 times)

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Offline NewHeretic

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"...may replace Boltgun and/or Bolt Pistol with..."
« on: December 11, 2008, 12:57:54 PM »
I don't want to hi-jack another thread, so I'll start a new one on this topic.

The new Codex: Space Marines uses the phrase, "The Space Marine Sergeant may replace his boltgun and/or bolt pistol with:" in several unit entries.  It then lists some options that may be so exchanged.  Next, it lists some options under the heading, "The Space Marine Sergeant may take:".

So far, I've interpreted this wording, when taken in context with the other, to mean that in order to equip the Sgt with one of the weapons in the former list, you must exchange it for one of the two he automatically comes with.  At the same time, you may equip him with any weapon from the latter list without having to make any exchange.

However, I've seen it posted several places that the phrase, "...may replace his boltgun and/or his bolt pistol..." means that he may replace one, both, or neither when equipping himself with one of the weapons from that list.

I agree that when taken by itself, this statement does seem to give the option to keep the originally equipped weapons, but I believe the word 'may' does not allow the option of taking weapons from that list without actually replacing any.  First, that option would make the second list obsolete; they could have simply included the second list within the first rather than giving them a separate heading.  Second, that second heading makes it clear (when taken in context with the first) that there is a difference in how items from those respective lists may be equipped on a SM Sgt.

Have I misinterpreted this wording or missed another rule that would alter my understanding of this part of the rules?

NewHeretic
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Offline Killing Time

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Re: "...may replace Boltgun and/or Bolt Pistol with..."
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2008, 01:06:55 PM »
When it says may replace X and/or Y, then if you choose a different weapon then he must lose either X or Y (your choice). If you choose two extra weapons then he loses X and Y.

If the entry says "... may take", then you get to buy these upgrades without having to sacrifice a weapon.

Dizzy


Offline muzzyman1981

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Re: "...may replace Boltgun and/or Bolt Pistol with..."
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2008, 11:04:48 PM »
Exactly as Dizz said....say in the first list where you choose to replace the bolter and/or bolt pistol with say a power weapon to replace the bolter.  Your Sgt has a Power Weapon and Bolt Pistol rather than a Bolter and Bolt Pistol.

Now take the second list, it says the Sgt may take : Meltabombs for example...you choose to take the Meltabombs...your Sgt now has a Bolter, a Bolt Pistol, and Meltabombs.

Now lets add all that together...you take the Power Weapon and Meltabombs....your Sgt is now carrying a Bolt Pistol, a Power Weapon, and Meltabombs.
The above is just my opinion unless specifically stated, so deal with it or move on...

Offline NewHeretic

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Re: "...may replace Boltgun and/or Bolt Pistol with..."
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2008, 11:28:01 AM »
Alright, guys.  I agree with you.  However, I keep seeing posts like this
The and/or means that you effectivley have the option to replace one, none, or both of your starting weapons with the list, making your question true.
in the 'Sergeant Options' thread and want to know why some people think that and/or also means none.

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Offline Killing Time

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Re: "...may replace Boltgun and/or Bolt Pistol with..."
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2008, 11:32:18 AM »
Because it says you may replace.
So you can replace bolt pistol and bolt gun with two new weapons.
Bolt pistol or bolt gun with one new weapon.
Or neither bolt pistol nor bolt gun for no new weapons.

Dizzy

Offline Hymirl

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Re: "...may replace Boltgun and/or Bolt Pistol with..."
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2008, 11:41:52 AM »
means that he may replace one, both, or neither when equipping himself

I'll agree that you can replace, either, both or neither of his weapons.

Quote
At the same time, you may equip him with any weapon from the latter list without having to make any exchange.

This however I see no evidence for.

The 'may' in that sentence is merely giving you the option not to take any upgrades. If it where replaced with a compulsion there then it could be suggested that it is mandatory to take at least one weapon trade in.
Such as; "Sargeant WILL replace his boltgun and/or bolt pistol with:"

I've seen this before and I really don't see it holding water, its just a wild leap of imagination I'm afraid.
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Offline TheWagon

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Re: "...may replace Boltgun and/or Bolt Pistol with..."
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2008, 09:57:18 PM »

Quote
At the same time, you may equip him with any weapon from the latter list without having to make any exchange.

This however I see no evidence for.


The latter list is the list that starts with "The Space Marine Sargeant may take . . ."

as opposed to "may replace . . ."

The way I thought it worked was:

Where it says "may take", then you may buy an item listed (if you want) and add it to your wargear, no exchange neccesary. For example, you may pay for and take melta bombs without having to exchange them for any of your starting wargear.

Offline Lazarus

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Re: "...may replace Boltgun and/or Bolt Pistol with..."
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2008, 10:04:46 PM »
Just to clarify:

I can replace my bolter & bolt pistol w/ a power fist & a combi melta for example....is this correct? (for xx points)

Lazarus.
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Offline FifthWindDieGermanator

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Re: "...may replace Boltgun and/or Bolt Pistol with..."
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2008, 10:11:36 PM »
Just to clarify:

I can replace my bolter & bolt pistol w/ a power fist & a combi melta for example....is this correct? (for xx points)

Lazarus.

That is correct.

The and/or means that you effectivley have the option to replace one, none, or both of your starting weapons with the list, making your question true.
in the 'Sergeant Options' thread and want to know why some people think that and/or also means none.

As Hymril said, this is so you don't have to take any if you don't want to, just a little vauge on my part.
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Offline NewHeretic

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Re: "...may replace Boltgun and/or Bolt Pistol with..."
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2008, 11:05:39 PM »
Thanks, FifthWindLegion, for clarifying your statement.  It is the position apparently held by Dizz that I disagree with, but I want to thank Dizz for explaining the rationalization behind it.

I think Hymirl stated the reasoning that decides that matter in my mind quite succinctly.  'May' is only referring to that fact that you don't have to exchange (replace) any of his weapons if you don't want to.  Not that you can 'take' any of those weapons without replacing any of the originals.  Thanks.

NewHeretic
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We will serve the Lord.

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Offline HiveFleetEzekial

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Re: "...may replace Boltgun and/or Bolt Pistol with..."
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2008, 11:48:38 PM »
The same wording issue was handled in the DA FAQ. (top right Q&A on the second page of the DA FAQ. their answer 'yes, but to do this the model will need to be heavily converted')

 They may take, whatever is listed in the 'may take', in addition to whatever else is listed beforehand in the 'may replace x and/or y for ___'.  Now, it is dealing with the Company Master for the DA, but formatting of the wargear options is the same.  Things that require an item be replaced, are listed in any 'may replace..' options, and those that don't require anything to be replaced are listed under any 'may take..' options.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 11:50:27 PM by HiveFleetEzekial »

 


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