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Making a Game table! [FINAL PIC!]

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Making a Game table! [FINAL PIC!]
« on: September 20, 2007, 11:18:39 PM »
 

Chrono

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So as the subject describes. I am just starting my next project for the next month or so.  I am making a 4' x 6' game table. It is for 40k, but won't be city fight or urban at all. The table will be non modular, (going for look over playability here), and hopefully will be quite well done (but i guess we will have to see how it turns out. i hope it isn't disgusting).  I plan on having a lot of rolling hills, a cliff, river, mabe a small canyon type thing that the river will run through in one area. Anyways I will share more about the details when things started getting seriously accomplished.

Yesterday i made a trip to home depot and picked up.
- 4'x6' x 1/2" playwood
- 3x 1"x4"x6'
- 2x 1"x4"x46.5"
For the wooden base

- 3 sheets of 2'x8'x1" HD insulating foam
- 1 sheet of 2'x8'x0.5" HD insulating foam
plus i have a bunch left from other terrain projects at home already
this is for the landscape of course

- Got some heavyduty glue which can be used with foam without melting it. To glue the layers together and to glue the foam to the wood base.
- got 400 mL of white pva glue. I really hope this will be enough for flocking the entire board. But i can always go out and buy more. Anyone have experience with flocking LARGE areas??

- Purchased 60 trees off ebay (mix of two trees) for about 45$ with shipping included.
 - they are 110mm high by 54 mm wide. So aren't Giagantic but they are on the large end of model train trees without getting into the 8" tall ones which cost way to much money. WIll take a while to get these though.. all the way from china :(

Okay. So it seems like i have some stuff that i can start to work with for the next while and keep me busy.
I was wondering if people had some helpful tips that i can keep inmind before i get to far into it and can't go back to do things a better way.
Also where can i find a bag of like course sand similar to the sand with small pebbles in it by GW? and i don't mean from a model shop. I heard fish tank gravel was good. Anyone has experience with this stuff. How fine does it get.. since i would think fish tank gravel is huge for WH scale.

My friend is letting me borrow his massive hot wire cutter which can be hand held or mounted, so that should ease the process of cutting the foam A LOT.

Well, I hope to start posting some pics for u guys soon. Wish me good luck, and any suggestions / tips would be helpfull.

p.s. I am using these two tables as my inspiration:
http://oz.games-workshop.com/games/lotr/hobby/terrain/table/main.htm
http://uk.games-workshop.com/theruinofarnor/arnor-tables/1/
though i don't plan mine being being laid out like that. Just in terms of my goal for quality. Though my will have more forests so u can actually play a game and hide behind things.

- chrono
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 12:11:48 AM by Chrono »
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Re: Making a Game table!
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2007, 07:31:13 AM »
 

Schrodinger

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In terms of sand, I have found that a fine grain sand works well for base texturing and can be readily obtained in many sandlots and city parks (Hey, I pay my taxes, and the kids take it home by the shoefull anyway). 

To break up the monotony, you could mix in a slightly larger grain of sand.  In my comunity, there are several sandbag assembly sites for public use for when the hurricanes come (yea Florida!).  These areas are a great source for slightly larger-grain sand.

The ratio of fine to course sand will give you widely variant looks for a surface.  I recommend trail batches until you get a look you like.

For larger bits, on the scale of rock rubble and brick-sized hunks of stone, ask a friend who owns cats for a cup or two of (CLEAN) kitty-litter.  It contains a lovely variety of shapes and sizes, and the size you want can easily be sorted out by using a sifter.

I haven't used the clumping kind though, so this is merely speculation; however, you should be careful if the litter forms clumps, as that may cause instability when gluing it down. 
 

Re: Making a Game table!
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2007, 02:34:54 PM »
 

Chrono

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Just an update. I am well on may way with the game table right now. Just finished glueing all the hills together onto the wood frame. Today I am starting to putty, and will begin sanding everything super smooth once putty is dry.
And I am taking WIP pics. So when i am all done I will make a big post with pics.

Oh i was wondering how people attached trees to their terrain. (baseless trees). As i mentioned before i am waiting for the delivery of the trees i got off ebay. And the trunk doesn't have a base so it is kinda like a really thick wire that just ends at the bottom. My board is made of foam so i know u could just poke them through. But i want them to be very stable and not just start to fall out due to the foam getting lose around the puncture hole everytime a tree gets slightly touched. AND i don't want to stick TOO much of the trunk into the foam since that would totally make the trees much shorter and out of proportion.

At first i didn't even worry about it, it seemed like such a easy task, but now that i am thinking about it i can't really figure out the best way to attach the trees. Plus i have to attach them AFTER the texture is put on and the table is primed. Though clearly i can re sand / prime areas around the tree. But I don't want to prime the table with all the trees on it.

Anyways. Thoughts would be of much help.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2007, 02:37:21 PM by Chrono »
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Re: Making a Game table!
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2007, 06:49:37 AM »
 

Schrodinger

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Seems to me that pinning the trees to the board would work.
(Drill out some of the tree base, insert length of wire, stab other end into base.)

If, once the hole is made in the foam, you apply glue to the pin and bottom of the tree, then you should have a securely fixed tree.

Between the putty layer providing stiffness, and the tree's base spreading out the force, I doubt you will have foam crumbling on you from casual use/abuse.

I've played around with a Spackle/PVA mix applied to foam, and the surface becomes quite durable.  It took some serious effort to put a dent in the skin with my fingernail.  If you have trouble getting the pin through your putty, just hammer a tack into the board to start the hole.
 

Re: Making a Game table!
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2007, 11:11:52 PM »
 

Chrono

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thanks for the response.
I have thought about pinning trees down. But the problem is that the trunks of these trees that i got are thin and actually might be metal though i can't be sure of the second part till i have them. So it would be like impossible to drill a hole in a thick wire for all purpose lets just call it. but if It turns out to be possible that would make them really nice and sturdy.

hmm i just thought about something that may work. U know those plastic things u jam in drilled holes in like concrete etc such that a screw will fit in more tightly. what if i used the smaller ones and pre punch some holes in the foam (they would be like 0.5 cm diamater holes.. but the top would be puttied up after so it should be cool).
then jammed the base of the trees into those assuming i can fine a plastic nub thingy with a opening to make a tight fit with the tree base.
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Re: Making a Game table!
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2007, 03:20:48 AM »
 

Gerrie

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Instead of covering entire hills with layers of glue and static grass, I've seen people sticking pieces of gaming grass mat to the surface.

Please keep us up to date on this project, as I'm planning to start working on some modular terrain as well.

I'm curious how you are going to texture large surfaces. My idea was to mix some sand into the paint, after gluing larger rocks on the surface, then drybrush.
 

Re: Making a Game table!
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2007, 03:35:29 AM »
 

Dreades

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with trees see if u can leave them separate on little bases of there own. the reason for this is that if u have lots of trees its a %#$$^ to move models in. and this way u can move trees around the table depending on battle to battle. and if u want specific glades just pout something to identify forests like darker grass or something. use flying stands with the basing material right to the edges for trees. this will help them match and not make it to obvious. just a point on  practicality.
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Re: Making a Game table!
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2007, 06:47:09 AM »
 

Schrodinger

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Yea, modular trees do add to practicality and playability, but Chrono specifically said he was going for a non-modular board, and values looks over playability.

With that said, I think he should definitely attach the trees directly to the base, as they will look better than a freestanding based tree.

Dreades did bring up a good point about the forests though.  You should alter the color, texture, or composition of the flocking on the table to define a precise boarder to the forests.  This will help in looks to define the specific region of a forest without having to overload areas with the trees, and will also help when it comes to gaming to know precisely where the terrain begins and ends.
 

Re: Making a Game table!
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2007, 09:32:52 PM »
 

Chrono

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The reason i want to attach the trees directly to the board is for pure looks. I have a grass mat and tonnes of terrain i can put on it for a more modular game. This table is kinda just for a good looking game, and as a project in just making terrain for the sake of terrain. And if I have some extra trees i will probably base them or put them on terrain pieces that can move around.

Using different flock around the trees is a great idea for distinguishing where the forest starts / ends. As trees alone would make it a bit complicated in the game. I plan on putting some serious thought into the placement of the forest clusters such that the game will be balanced and fun.

@ gerrie : That is kinda neat. I think i was actually reading about it yesterday how like woodland scenics makes a sheet that molds to hills too. However i  believe that would be even more expensive than just flocking normally. (and i need to watch how much i spend on this table.. i am at like 135 $ already :S). Also by using static grass, i can control exactly where i want the grass better, and avoid sharp contrasts between a cut edge of a grass matt and the texture underneath (dirt). As i plan to have dirt showing through in many areas.

as far as how i am planning on texturing the large surface. Although I am not at that stage yet in production, (maybe in a couple days), i plan on just using a vast amound of white glue and spreading it over the board section by section, while sprinkling sand all over it (fine and coarse). This will be the last step before painting. The static grass will be put on after the table is all painted up.

update:
I finally FINALLY got my hands on the "wood" GW uses for rocks on their tables. It took me 2 days of searching. and for anyone who would like to save a lot of time, listen up! What u want to buy is a bag of "PINE BARK NUGGETS" (note get the big ones not the mini ones). I was following a stupid trail of suggestions from gw people and websites and clearly no one really knew what they ACTUALLY used. Everyone said woodchips and multch. that is nothing close to what u want. so again. if u want the "wood" rocks. buy "PINE BARK NUGGETS"!!!!!!. Oh and i got some at a local nursery (garden store). and homedepot, rona, and canadian tire garden centres don't have it so don't bother. Make sure u call before hand or u will waste and entire night like me.
I think they cost around 7$ for a HUGE bag. luckily the guy at the place just said take some out of a hole which was in one of the bags :) for free. So i filled up a random grocery bag with the bark nuggets and left without spending a dime :D. ( what i am trying to say is u don't have to use dirty stuff from your backyard which is very inconsistent and probably filled with bugs... just to save money. I think most garden stores will let u take a good amount for FREE since u don't need a 20 kg bag or whatever it is. Same goes with sand (u can just take like cup fulls from open bags).)

Today i glued all the bark nuggets i got into place and spackled all the hard edges on the table where layers met. It was a long process, and i want to put a second coat of spackle on a few areas tomorrow to try and get a more even transition between layers. It i a very messy job, and i am having trouble finding time for it all. Especially since i am a 3rd year engineering student at the university of toronto, and with 30+ hours of class a week i don't get home before 6. And it gets dark at 7:20 here :(. But today i rigged up a work area in my garage so i can work with light "essentially outside" as late as i want. :D this will definitely help me speed things up.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2007, 09:38:25 PM by Chrono »
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Re: Making a Game table!
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2007, 02:52:31 AM »
 

Gerrie

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I tried covering large areas with flock once, with a layer of wood glue, and then normal static grass. But this grass kept getting loose, even after a few games. So how do you plan to glue the grass down? and be sure it stays there?
 

Re: Making a Game table!
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2007, 01:07:34 PM »
 

MrJuice

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400ml of glue is definately not going to be enough. I buy my glue in 4L jugs, think its about 20 bucks at crappy tire but im sure you could find it cheaper if you look around. When your ready to flock, grab yourself  a mini 5" roller and a small paint tray to apply the glue. Works great and is really quick. Water it down with only enough water to increase the fluidity a bit. Too much water and it wont hold the flock very well and it will come off easier. Once youve applied the flock and the glue has dried. Grab a large paint brush and give the surface a quick go over to remove any loose flock. Get some more PVA and water it down a little more than before and go over the flocked surface with the paint roller again to give a nice solid seal. You will end up with a very durable playing surface. When thats dry apply any static grass you want to add.


 

Re: Making a Game table!
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2007, 02:34:08 PM »
 

BrotherCaptainRace

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This may come too little, too late, but I hate playing on sand-covered surfaces.  For modular pieces, it's OK (but not ideal).  I used the Woodland Scenics ReadyGrass Mat to surface my own table.  IIRC, you want to make a static table with built-in terrain features, so a mat may not be ideal in your situation.

If I had to choose between flock, static grass, or sand - I'd choose the flock first, then the grass and sand last.

Regardless of what you do, you'll need LOTS of glue.
 

Re: Making a Game table!
« Reply #12 on: October 1, 2007, 08:46:32 AM »
 

Chrono

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Hehe ya. I wasn't thinking that 400 mL of glue was going to be enough. But I figured I could always buy more very easily.
and thanks for the advice on glueing down the sand and putting a seal coat of glue on top. Also, would u suggest pva glue for hte flock too?? I noticed that in the GW tutorial they used spray can glue... but for some reason that seems really weak to me.
And i planned on matt varnishing hte entire table after to seal things down.

@ brother captainrace. The sand is just the base layer. Most of hte table will be flocked/static grassed.

Also I am done sanding and spackling :D. But now I decided to put a river in again, so i am going to dig that out soon. Probably a pretty shallow one since a) i only have 1" base foam to work with, and b) fake water is expensive and takes a long time to dry in a deep area. I was going to use envirotex lite for the water. I have never used it before but heard great things about it. Has anyone here used it? Advice? Like can i poor 1/2" deep area at once. Or do i need to layer it? since i heard that although layering is good.. u really don't have to do it. Plus does it dry to a non tacky/spongy surface? Also would 32 oz, cover 5-6 ft of river at 1/2" deep and 2.5" width?
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Re: Making a Game table!
« Reply #13 on: October 1, 2007, 01:49:57 PM »
 

Gerrie

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Why avoid the spraycan of paint? It's quite sticky stuff from what I have heard...

please keep sharing your ideas and experiences here, it's very useful :)
 

Re: Making a Game table!
« Reply #14 on: October 4, 2007, 01:23:34 PM »
 

Chrono

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Sorry about not replying in a while. the reasons were
a) 40k online wasn't working.
b) my computer got F#@#'d up. (my harddrive is basically gone... or at least my c partition. So Until i get a new one which should be soon. i have no computer at home.. (my brother doesn't let me use his :@). And i have just been using the computers at school here. (i am at school right now).  But i am very happy that my brother told me that he was able to copy all the files off my d drive.. which i hope is true. Since that is where my WIP progress pics for a majority of the table were. (I erased them from my camera after uploading them - who knew my hard drive would crash). So.... Lets hope that is true and i still have them. so that all hte ones i have taken since then which are still on my camera can be added to it.

anyways. I have been really busy with school so progress is not as fast as it could be. But i try and get in an hour or so a day to work on it.

I have no reason to avoid spray glue. I just have never used it before, and the idea of it seems a bit odd to me. But hey if it works then why not do it. Would 1 can of it be good enough to flock an entire board? (grass .. not the sand). And it is actually quite sticky then it would seem way better than pva glue for attaching hte flock, since i don't think spreading pva glue ontop of sand is as easy as it is on top of bare foam.

Update:
I put in a river (well actually 2 rivers : 1 larger one going across a corner about 4 ft long, and 1 small one across the opposite corner about 1.5 ft long) and foot path which goes across most of the board.

For the  big river i first cut out a 1cm deep path that was pretty rough and about 1" wide with a hobby knife. From testing with a heat gun, i found that hte steaper the walls of the cut the better the heat would be contained to the river area (to not make a 6" wide river.. :S). so i basically cut out a rectangular cross section into the foam 1" cm deep and 1" wide with corners. I borrowed a heat gun from a friend and used it to shape the river. Btw, it is A LOT HARDER than you would think. First off, the texture it melts into foam is definitely not smooth!! Like u can get a small 1mm deep smooth area with it.. but anything more there starts to be a rough surface, with strings, and holes etc. For the river i kinda actually liked it though, since it gave the base a texture which is pretty neat. Even though after i glue rocks ot hte bottom u won't really notice it anymore. But for all those people who think a heat gun is a magic way of getting a river and that u can control it easily, u are completely wrong. make sure u practice though before on spare foam. If it weren't for the experimenting with cutting a guide for the heat gun, my river would have ruined the table. (at first i tried with no guide, then i tried with thick/thin/deep/wipe/sharp/soft guides (the area i cut out before with a hobby knife)). Anyways Also due ot the fact that it is hard to control exactly where the foam will just melt away, make sure u have some clearance on either side in case it goes  wrong. And my big river turned out deeper than i had originally planned, since in order to keep shaping with hte gun i had to go deeper. So it is almost the full 1" deep. and in a couple spots i hit the wood which i then spackled up.

For the small river i didn't use the heat gun and instead just have an area bounded by hills and cliffs that hte river and run through (like a little valley lets call it). So i don't have to dig down or anything. This one is smaller and will also be shallower. though i might paint hte depth in to the flat base of hte river. All i really had to do for this river prep, is to spackle the area where layers meet to ensure that any fake water product i add won't seep between them.

So essentially i have the rivers in place. They still don't have flock, paint or water obviously so there is still much more work to be done.

The foot path i made was also using the heat gun. THough not as intensly, so that i could jsut lower the foam along the path by a few mm. It worked pretty well though again the surface had many small holes and a couple larger ones due ot inconsistancies in the foam. Spackle after this solved the problem but it just is annoying. The only advantage of hte heat gun for this is that it makes it very gradual and realistic, and causes a bit of warping and discontinuities in the road height (very slight.. don't worry) that make it look more realistic.  Time wise and including the spackling.. i would say sanding the path in would be just as fast. ANd if u have a small power sander (which i don't) it would be way faster and better than the heat gun.

Also a huge problem i now found out with a heat gun is the foam in the area where u used the heat gun becomes extremely hard. I mean U CAN"T SANT IT hard. Well maybe if u spend 2 hours sanding a small spot u could .. but for all purposes u can't.

Um. other than that. the only other stuff i have done was sand the entire table once again, after a bit more spackling.

I am now ready to start putting sand all over the board. Though i am not sure when i will get to that. Still don't have the sand, and don't know what i should use. Is there anything wrong with like playground sand???

« Last Edit: October 4, 2007, 01:42:20 PM by Chrono »
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Re: Making a Game table!
« Reply #15 on: October 4, 2007, 01:34:48 PM »
 

MrJuice

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Spray can glue is great stuff ( I use stuff from 3M ) but not for applying flock or texture. Kinda hard for me to explain why, it just doesnt do the job very well, you can trust me on that one. PVA works well for flock because the moisture content wicks through the flock material and gives a very good hold, something you wont get with the spray stuff.
 

Re: Making a Game table!
« Reply #16 on: October 4, 2007, 01:50:03 PM »
 

Chrono

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hmm. well if that is the case i wouldn't want to use it for flocking.

I am using pva for sure for the sand.
but I just figured since GW used the spray glue in their tutorial to attach the static grass, that it would not only work but be a easier method of doing it. But the last thing i want is a sloppy hold on the static grass and having it slowly but surely come off in game.

I know pva glue always does a good job, and it is what i use on my bases of models to attach static grass. So i could always just stick with it  and get a lot more.

I still am waiting for the trees .. but it has only been 8 business days so far and it said 7-14 business day shipping. but I still am not sure how i will attach these. And I need to go out and buy some envirotex which seems pretty pricy for the large amounts i need. And then i can hopefully do some tests with tinting and mixture/sealing, while i am flocking and painting the board so that when that is done i can immediatly get the water in. I fear that if i don't put it in soon the weather will get MUCH MUCH colder and will make bad conditions for the resin to cure :S. (i am doing it in my garage which is essentially outside).


« Last Edit: October 4, 2007, 01:52:16 PM by Chrono »
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Re: Making a Game table!
« Reply #17 on: October 4, 2007, 02:05:22 PM »
 

Plague Tower of Nurgle

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do you have to attach the trees to the board? you could always put them onto some hardboard for terrain that can be randomly placed each game.
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Re: Making a Game table!
« Reply #18 on: October 4, 2007, 02:09:13 PM »
 

Gerrie

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A while ago I was browsing the forum of a friend's gaming group and found this thread called 'project lava field': http://www.xhammer.be/forum/viewtopic.php?t=550. It's in dutch, but the pictures speak for themselves. The only thing I should translate is that the guy pictured there suffered from severe headaches after using the heat gun in his garage :) Better do this outside or with plenty of ventilation.

Btw I've done a little test with mixing some sand in paint, works great to give plain surfaces a bit of texture.

EDIT: If the trees are made out of solid material I'd say pin them on the board.
« Last Edit: October 4, 2007, 02:10:40 PM by Gerrie »
 

Re: Making a Game table!
« Reply #19 on: October 5, 2007, 09:15:15 AM »
 

Chrono

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Hehe, ya definitely need some serious ventillation when using a heat gun. I had the garage door open and a mask one. But man that amphetamine parrot stinks and I know that hte fumes are horrible for you.  No headaches for me though. But ya those pics are a good representation of what happens when u use a heat gun. i just hate how the surface becomes unworkable after u use a heat gun. but in my case it doesn't really matter. But if u wanted to still be able to do stuff with it, you would be out of luck.

ya pinning seems like a solid option. I just hope that the trees i got can be pinned (though i am leaning to the fact that they won't be able to, judging on the pics). Does anyone know of other methods that model train scenery builders use to attach their trees? Since often a lot of model train trees are very small .. like 6 cm tall to fit with the scale. ANd i know for a fact that these small trees have pretty damn slim tree trunks. So i doubt they could pin them and must have another method.

Um @ deathklaat
Ya i am definitely attaching them to the board. ANy extra trees i have will go on seperate terrain pieces that can eb moved around for when i don't play on this board i am making.
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