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[40k] Unit Creation and Point Cost Guide

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[40k] Unit Creation and Point Cost Guide
« on: November 19, 2005, 08:15:09 PM »
 

Talos Claw

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This is meant to be a guide to model/unit creation for 40k armies. It is not supposed to give an exact value on anything, but only a general idea.

(Before anyone says anything, I do know about synergy etc. and I do try to adjust for it (you’ll see). I know that, naturally, I will get plenty of posts telling me how it doesn’t work this way or that way, how my basic premises are flawed, why I shouldn’t have made this, etc...if you post criticism, I don’t mind, but please try to make it constructive)

[disclaimer] You should probably ask your regular opponents before using any units created by this guide. I take no responsibility for any injury or hurt they cause to you. :) [/disclaimer]

I know that for this system to really work, it has to work with the majority of units already in 40k, and it does. However, it will not always work.

In addition, I will be explaining, as best as I can, why I chose what I did for each section. Suggestions and comments are always welcome.


Part One - Choosing What You Want

This can be used for units in your own army, or even units to be used in an already existing army. If they are to be used in an existing army, you should be careful to stay within the general ideas and fluff behind that army (for example, do not give a horde unit to Space Marines). Anyways...the guidelines. This first section is not required, only suggestions to what you make. However, units that you create outside the guidelines posted in this section may not work as well with the system I have set up here. If you unit is artillery or a vehicle, skip to Part Five.

1. No more than 2 stats (other than Leadership) at a level of 8 or higher. Since saves are calculated differently, count a 2+ save as a stat at level 8 or higher.

   This is mainly to prevent units that are far too powerful. As far as I know, the system fails a little at higher levels as well when it should be increasing by far more than it is.

2. If the unit is a Troop choice, no stats (except Leadership) above 5 (yes, I know the Harlequins are an exception here) and no save above 3+ or Invulnerable save better than 6+. Do not give them more than 1 wound.

   This is for the protection of the creator so that he doesn’t get called for too much cheese...well... :)

3. Do not give a single unit more than 5 special rules. These are not the normal special rules, but are the “upgrade” possibilities listed in the Special Rules section.

   Again, a unit shouldn’t be too powerful.

4. Do not apply any of the Army Special Rules to the unit unless it is included in the Special Rules section and you are willing to pay more points for it.

   Usually, army special rules are factored into the cost of a unit (as far as I know). Therefore, you should probably be paying for them and not receiving them for free.


Part Two - Calculations

This section is to calculate the approximate number of points the unit will take up. Special rules, synergy, etc. are not taken into account (yet). Do not round values unless I specify it!

1. Take the average value of the WS, BS, S, T, and I characteristics (average is found by adding up the numbers and dividing by the “number” of numbers). Do not include the BS skill unless the unit’s regular weapon has a shooting capability (you could, for example, give something a BS of 1, an extra arm, and a pistol to lower your average, but...that’s not in the “spirit of the rules”). Use weapon strength if it is greater than profile strength. If the unit has a bike which increases toughness, do not include it yet. If the average is less than 3, subtract 1. If the average is 6-7, add 1. If the value is 8 or more, add 2. Then, square it (multiply it by itself). Round the value you get after this step.

   This is to find the general proficiency of the unit. The squaring is to make sure that the value’s increase rate becomes faster as it goes up, a trend that is shown in most units. The adding 1 and 2 before squaring is my way of attempting to balance the values to get for very powerful units. After this step, you will already get the general idea of how much a unit will cost .The rest is mostly tweaking, although it can still rise a great deal.

2. Take the value from Step 1 and find 10 percent of it (divide the number by 10).

3. Add another 10 percent of the value for every leadership point above 8 (this means add 20 percent for Ld10). Remove 10 percent for every points below 7. Leaderships of 7 or 8 are unaffected. If the unit is “Fearless”, or some other special rule, skip this step and refer to the Special Rules section (or the re-rolls section, if there is any possible way it might get to re-roll Leadership tests). Do not round.

4. Add the value from Step 2 (10 percent of Step 1 value) for every “save point” better than 4+, and remove it for every “save point” worse than 4+. A model with no save will remove this value three times. Models with a save of 4+ are unaffected. Invulnerable Saves will be discussed under “Special Rules” (yes, I know it’s not a special rule, but that’s the best place for it). If the model has only an Invulnerable Save, skip this step and do not count it as not having a save. Round the value you get after this step. Round the value you get (that is, the value after both steps 3 and 4).

   Steps 3 and 4 are meant mainly to factor in the Leadership and Save values into the equation. Naturally, they will not have too much effect (unless, for example, you give the model Ld2 or something which is not likely...to prevent “abuse”, if you wish a model to be Fearless, the Ld must be 8 or better). The major factor is still Step 1 though.

5. Add the Wounds and Attacks characteristics together. For the Attacks characteristic, use the number of shots its weapon gets if greater than its profile attacks. Count Rapid Fire and Pistol weapons as having one shot due to their limitations, and count Heavy weapons as having 1 less shot than normal (to a minimum of 1) for the same reason (count them as having their normal number of shots if allowed to by a special rule, such as riding on a bike...in this case count Rapid Fire and Pistol weapons as having 2 shots). Add 1 to the number of shots if the weapon range is greater than 24 inches. This will have no point if the number of profile attacks is greater anyways. If the unit has 2 close combat weapons, include the extra attack. Divide the number you get by 4 and add 0.5. Multiply the value by this number. Round.

   This section is used for the overall effectiveness of the unit, because no matter how good a unit is, it must have enough Wounds to last long enough and enough Attacks to do damage itself. It also helps to prevent an ultra-powerful model that would kill an entire army by itself (I decided not to include AP as it might make it too complicated). If it is a Monstrous Creature or has a power weapon etc, this will be discussed later. I added the 0.5 because, in that way, a model with 1 wound and 1 attack would be multiplied by 1 and therefore not change.


b]Part Three - Special Rules[/b]

This section is not only for the Universal Special Rules, but for any special effects a unit may have in close combat, such as being a Monstrous Creature or any other “unique” special rules that are found only in a few units. I have tried to offer a wide selection of possibilities, and if you want something unlike anything here, I encourage you to think of your own costs for it.

Take 10 percent of the value you get at the end of Part 2 (so 1.8 for a Space Marine). In this section, that value will be referred to as an “increment”. Do not round this value for adding multiple special rules until the end of this section. To represent the special rules being able to work together, you must add one extra increment for every special rule you add after the first.

If mounted on a bike, add 1 increment.
If mounted on a jetbike, add 2 increments.
If it is Jump Infantry, add 1 increment.
If it has a jetpack, or is otherwise allowed to move in the Assault Phase without assaulting, add 2
   increments (this is not in addition to being jump infantry).
If it is a monstrous creature or otherwise ignores saves in close combat, add 2 increments.
If it is Beasts/Cavalry, add 1 increment.

If it may Deep Strike or Infiltrate, add 1 increment. Add 2 if it may do this even if not allowed by
   scenario special rules.

And They Shall Know No Fear - 1 increment.
Fearless or Stubborn - 1 increment.
Feel No Pain - 1 increment for every wound the model has.
Fleet - 1 increment
Hit and Run - 2 increments
Independent Character (why is this not a Universal Special Rule?) - 1 increment
Move Through Cover or Skilled Rider - 1 increment each unless the model is an Independent
   Character and may get them for free.
Scout - 1 increment
Swarms - No cost - unit must have 3 or more wounds
Tank Hunters - 1 increment
Turbo-Boosters - free with bikes or jetbikes


   The remaining special rules are uncommon and found in only a few units at most. They are to give you an idea of what rules you may have in your own units, and for your convenience. You may use different rules as well.

Heavy CC weapon - 1 increment

Hit on 3+ in CC, or force opponents to hit on 5+ - 2 increments

Inspiring - all units within a certain radius (usually 12) are either fearless, may re-roll Ld tests, or similar - 2 increments

Invulnerable Save - 1 increment for a 6++, 2 for a 5++, etc.

Pinning weapon - 1 increment

Psychic Powers - depends on what type of power - you should work this out yourself (non-combat powers will usually be 1 increment)

Rending or Poisoned weapons - 2 increments

Re-rolls - many units or their weapons, due to special rules, may re-roll dice rolls relating to that unit. If the re-roll does not apply to a saving throw, 1 increment - if it does, 2 increments.

Shadow Skinned - always has a 5+ Cover Save, and if the unit is actually in cover, the save is improved by +2, to a maximum of a 2+ cover save - 2 increments

Terrifying Opponent - CC opponents must pass a Ld test in every round of combat or fall back - 2 increments


Part Four - Other Tweaking

1. Options - The ability to take options is very important as it adds to the overall flexibility and adaptability of the unit. Add up all the options available to the model/squad of models (if a squad can take two of, special weapons for example, count it twice) and divide it into groups. If your model can take equipment from the Armory, you may have to include the entire armory, barring any restricted sections. The groups are as follows: options up to 9 pts - group 1 (ignore these), options 10-19 pts - group 2, options 20-39 pts - group 3, options 40+ pts - group 4. Options in group 3 will count as 2 options for this purpose, and those in group 4 will count as 3 options. For every 5 options possible (round up to the next highest multiple of 5), add one point to the point value of the model.

2. Troops - This alteration is mostly fluff-based, but I found under testing that most basic troops were overpriced. Troops are supposed to be the most common unit in an army, and they should not cost too much. If the result is meant to be a basic troop choice for the army, reduce the cost to 75% of the result you received. The definition of basic is open to interpretation, but armies would only have 1 or 2 basic troop types.


Part Five - Vehicles and Artillery

Vehicles and Artillery are, naturally, very different from infantry and other units covered in the first few sections. I decided that it would be easier to make them fit into the first system rather than make a whole new system, because, though they are different than infantry, they also share many similarities. This is possible because the system is only supposed to give a general idea for the majority of units and not work for all units

1. When attacking an infantry unit, the rolls required are - To Hit, To Wound, and Armour Save. If attacking a vehicle, the rolls required are - To Hit, Armour Penetration, and Damage. First, we will change the vehicle’s armour value into a corresponding Toughness. This part is easy. If we take the Armour Penetration as a To Wound roll (start with armour 10), the Strength that will wound it on a 4+ is 6, so we can say that armour 10 is equal to toughness 6. This would go up to 14 being corresponding to toughness 10.

So - take the front armour, multiply it by 2, add the side and rear armours to that, then divide by four. This average is weighted because the front armour is used the most. Subtract four from the number you get, round it, and that is your corresponding Toughness.

We will be putting these numbers into the Part 2, Number 1 equation. The vehicle will already have a BS (if applicable), so WS, S, and I are still missing. If the vehicle already has these values, like on a Dreadnought, use those. For Strength, add the strength of all the vehicle’s weapons. This leaves WS and I, which are “not applicable” in this case like BS on a close combat unit. So simply leave them out of the equation (actually, I thought of including them at a value of 0, but that would bring down the point value far too much.

2. Take 10 percent of the value from Step 1, as before.

3. Vehicles do not have Leadership. They will always be given the “Fearless” special rule to represent this, in step 5.

4. Save is slightly different, as it must be corresponded to damage rolls. Different types of vehicles will have different saves correspond to them. As before, add or subtract 10 percent above or below 4+ as before. I am using only Destroyed results to count as destroyed, as an Immobilized (non-skimmer) or otherwise damaged vehicle can still be of use (and it would make it too complicated).
   Artillery - No Save (always destroyed)
   Fast Skimmer - 3+, because usually only glancing hits will be caused.,
   All others (walkers, skimmers, tanks, open-topped) - 2+ to glancing hits, 5+ to penetrating hits - this means that we will have to find one save value. Since this is an average, the save will have to be either 3+ or 4+ (the values in between). Since there is more low strength weaponry than high strength weaponry, we can infer that glancing hits are more common, so we will give them a value of 3+.

5. Skip this step for normal vehicles (refer to the same number step in Part 2). For vehicles with a Weapon Skill, do this step as normal, with their normal number of attacks. All vehicles have 1 wound.

6. Repeat Part 4 as normal.


Part Six - Vehicle/Artillery Special Rules

This will work the same as in Part Three for infantry. Take 10 percent of the vehicle’s value at this point - this will be referred to as an “increment” in this section. If you buy more than one upgrade, add an extra increment for every upgrade past the first, except for Open-Topped which will cancel out with another upgrade.

Fast - add 1 increment
Open-topped - subtract 1 increment
Skimmer - add 1 increment
Walker - no cost

Every “main” weapon after the first - 1 increment
Each ordnance weapon - 1 increment
Fearless - 1 increment - must be bought for all vehicles
Transport capability- add 1 increment


Part Seven - Adjust for Synergy

The results that come from this system will rarely if ever be exact (if you compare it to Codex models that already exist). However, it will usually be in the vicinity. You can adjust the value you get as much as you want if you feel it is needed. However, general guidelines to how close this system would get you are found below. The values on the left are the value you get from this system, and those on the right are the range in which the actual value will most likely be. Remember that even with Codex values, the answer you get will not always be within this range.
   1-20      +/- 5
   21-40      +/- 10
   41-80      +/- 20
   81-120   +/- 30
   121+      +/- 40

There will also be cases of “extreme” synergy, where a unit will be made extremely better by coordination with other units of the same army. The best example I can think of is getting a unit with a 2+ invulnerable save in an Eldar army full of Fortune. You may also want to make “fluffy” changes - for example, a unit with WS5 in a Tau army will likely be rare and should likely cost more (this may fit into the first category also). In circumstances such as these, it would be wise to find your own solution between yourself and your regular opponents (your opponent’s views being needed in this case as they are more likely to see problems with it).

Part Eight - Examples

The units used as examples below are real units, and are all within their +/- value. These were randomly selected and I cannot say which ones, naturally, due to copyright restrictions.

WS5, BS3, S7, T7, W3, I4, A6, Ld-(fearless), Sv3+, Pts100

5+3+7+7+4=26
26/5=5.2
5.2x5.2=27.04 -> 27

10% of 27 -> 2.7
Add this once (3+ save) = 29.7 -> 30

W+A = 6+3 = 9
9/4 +0.5 = 2.75
2.75x30 = 82.5 -> 83

10% of 83 = 8.3 (“increment”)

Monstrous Creature + Fearless = 3 increments
83 + 3(8.3) = 107.9 -> 108

No options

Final value = 108
Difference = 8


WS6, BS0, S6, T4, W2, I6, A3, Ld-(fearless), Sv5+ Pts80

6+6+4+6=22
22/4 = 5.5
5.5x5.5 = 30.25 ->31

10% of 31 = 3.1
Subtract this once (5+ save) = 27.9 ->30

W+A = 5
5/4 +0.5 = 1.75
1.75x30 = 52.5 -> 53

10% of 53 = 5.3 (increment)

Fearless+Shadow Skinned+Rending+Hit and Run= 8 increments
53+8(5.3) = 95.4 -> 95

No options

Final value = 95
Difference = 15


AV Front 10 Side 10 Rear 10, BS4, Pts55

= WS-, BS4, S8, T6, W1, I-, A1, Ld-, Sv3+, Pts 55

4+8+6 = 18
18/3 = 6
6+1=7
7x7=49

10% of 49 = 4.9
Add this once (3+ save) = 49 + 4.9 = 53.9 ->54

W+A = 2
2/4 + 0.5 = 1
54x1 = 54

10% of 54 = 5.4

Fearless+Fast+Skimmer+Transport = 4 increments
54+4(5.4) = 75.6 -> 76

Options - 5 at 10-19 pts = 5
5/5 = 1 => 76+1 = 77

Troop choice - 77x0.75 = 57.75 ->58

Final value - 58
Difference = 3


Enjoy!
« Last Edit: November 20, 2005, 09:24:29 AM by Talos Claw »
 

Re: [40k] Unit Creation and Point Cost Guide
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2005, 05:10:29 AM »
 

Firelord.

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Does this list work? for example if you take an ork soota boy will he end up on 7pts or will he cost more?

Do you have any units to show that you made with this list?

This list looks a bit hard to use as you read it, is it hard to  use?

I think i'm gonna test it but i don't know what to think!

And why not use the vihicle design rules from the chapter approved something, it would work well i think!
Da orkz ar goin to win, cos jov ar gonna loos!
 

Re: [40k] Unit Creation and Point Cost Guide
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2005, 06:58:13 AM »
 

Lazarus

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Alot of work you put in there. I applaude your efforts.  :)


The biggest problem is the synergy. A unit's value is often determined by what is in the rest of the list. I do know that you have touched on this but it will be hard to deal with.

I'm not sure what system GW uses (if any) when they design their units...

If I wasn't so lazy at math (and busy at work) I'd do up a couple of units to see how they come out. Still kind of curious how GW came up with the new terminator cost as we are discussing in another post. If mememory servers correctly they went down in cost by 2 points while gaining deepstrike in all missions, an extra shot & rending on the assault cannon. Access to veteran skills (command squad) as well. New transport / assaulting rules nerfed nearly every other race but terminators may assault from the landraider / & crusader after moving.

Lazarus.
"If someone used the ridiculous cover saves rule on me I'd probably punch him in the face. If he's still standing he would be entitled to punch me in the face, take my army, and my woman if he can. This is known as the Conan rule of play, and is not forbidden in the core rules and encourages serious amounts of sportsmanship." - Carniflex
 

Re: [40k] Unit Creation and Point Cost Guide
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2005, 05:58:06 PM »
 

Talos Claw

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Hi all...(just so you know I usually can't come on during the week...today is an exception)

Does this list work? for example if you take an ork soota boy will he end up on 7pts or will he cost more?

It will work the majority of times. It will not usually give the exact value from the Codex, but will give you a value that is quite close to its actual value. Therefore, it can be assumed that it gives accurate values for units that you make.

Quote
Do you have any units to show that you made with this list?

My own units, no. However, I did write down three examples.

Quote
This list looks a bit hard to use as you read it, is it hard to  use?

No harder than the rulebook. :)




Alot of work you put in there. I applaude your efforts.  :)

Thank you. :)

Quote
The biggest problem is the synergy. A unit's value is often determined by what is in the rest of the list. I do know that you have touched on this but it will be hard to deal with.

Yup. That's why the value can fluctuate. :)

Quote
If I wasn't so lazy at math (and busy at work) I'd do up a couple of units to see how they come out.

I do have examples there. :)

Quote
Still kind of curious how GW came up with the new terminator cost as we are discussing in another post. If mememory servers correctly they went down in cost by 2 points while gaining deepstrike in all missions, an extra shot & rending on the assault cannon. Access to veteran skills (command squad) as well. New transport / assaulting rules nerfed nearly every other race but terminators may assault from the landraider / & crusader after moving.

I don't know the exact Codex entry for Terminators, but I did some quick calculations as I do know the basic statline (I counted its profile str as 8, by the way). Anyways, a normal Terminator, using my system, is about 45 pts, and one with an assault cannon would be about 70-75 pts (assuming that the assault cannon does not replace the powerfist, but only the stormbolter, right?).
 

Re: [40k] Unit Creation and Point Cost Guide
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2005, 06:35:16 PM »
 

Lazarus

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Posted by: Talos Claw

Quote
I don't know the exact Codex entry for Terminators, but I did some quick calculations as I do know the basic statline (I counted its profile str as 8, by the way). Anyways, a normal Terminator, using my system, is about 45 pts, and one with an assault cannon would be about 70-75 pts (assuming that the assault cannon does not replace the powerfist, but only the stormbolter, right?).

40 base. 60 w/ assault cannon.


The point I was making is that you can have something get better....even alot better without always paying an increase for it....sometimes even getting a decrease like they did this time.

Lazarus.
"If someone used the ridiculous cover saves rule on me I'd probably punch him in the face. If he's still standing he would be entitled to punch me in the face, take my army, and my woman if he can. This is known as the Conan rule of play, and is not forbidden in the core rules and encourages serious amounts of sportsmanship." - Carniflex
 

Re: [40k] Unit Creation and Point Cost Guide
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2005, 10:59:13 AM »
 

Talos Claw

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The point I was making is that you can have something get better....even alot better without always paying an increase for it....sometimes even getting a decrease like they did this time.

That's part of the synergy adjustments. And the fact that Terminators are Space Marines.
 

Re: [40k] Unit Creation and Point Cost Guide
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2005, 11:40:59 AM »
 

Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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For the limitation on max stats for troops, you have also ignored genestealers who are a perfectly canon unit with two stats at 6. Why not change it from 5 to 6?
The forum rules are fair and just. *twitch*
 

Re: [40k] Unit Creation and Point Cost Guide
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2005, 08:09:51 PM »
 

Lazarus

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Oh yeah I forgot that assault cannons no longer jam....wonder what that is worth? (lol)

Lazarus.
"If someone used the ridiculous cover saves rule on me I'd probably punch him in the face. If he's still standing he would be entitled to punch me in the face, take my army, and my woman if he can. This is known as the Conan rule of play, and is not forbidden in the core rules and encourages serious amounts of sportsmanship." - Carniflex
 

Re: [40k] Unit Creation and Point Cost Guide
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2005, 03:56:56 PM »
 

Talos Claw

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These are just general guidelines - there are exceptions to everything.

Generally, troop types should not have stats above 5. (I don't even know if they should be Troops, really - maybe only in Broodlord or vanguard armies)
 

Re: [40k] Unit Creation and Point Cost Guide
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2005, 04:13:01 PM »
 

Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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No, stealers are normal troops and they work just fine.
The forum rules are fair and just. *twitch*
 

 


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