News:

Login  |  Register

Author Topic: New DE Codex. Spoilers You Have Been Warned.  (Read 3766 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline nesbitt_bub1

  • Infinity Circuit
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1272
  • Country: 00
  • Stop looking at my AVATAR, read what i did write!!
New DE Codex. Spoilers You Have Been Warned.
« on: October 3, 2014, 08:47:33 PM »
It's just turned midnight!

So I got my new book. The firt thing I flicked to was the unit entries. I always do the fluff can wait.

Something is missing... Any and every named character without a model is gone.

Vect, Malys, Duke, Decapitator, And the Baron.

And with that so too is the Dais.

So who's left.

Lilith, Urien, and Drazahar.

The rules for them have changed a little but they still work as intended by the looks.

Archons.

same points cost, same stat line, same special rules.

options lost.
venom blade. ECW, ghostplate armour,

The rest of the options are still there. And you can take him on a venom by himself.

Court of the Archon.

sslyth increased in points, Medusae decreased in points. Stat lines the same. Wargear and special rules changed.

They lost the model purchase restrictions. It's now just 1-12 models of your choice.


Succubus.

increased in points same stat line, special rules and wargear.

Options lost
ECW, poison weapon,

Gained archite blade (Demiklave without the attack bonus).


Haemy

Less points than an ancient. No longer 2 tiers, no longer 1-3 per choice.

Ancient stat line, same wargear, same special rules (+1 CCW).

options lost.

power weapon, Agoniser, Lots of the fun wargear has changed a bit as well.

Warriors.

same stat line, +1 CCW, cheaper

Wyches.

Same stat line, same special rules, same wargear, same cost.

Unit wide HWG lost.

Incubi.

Higher Leadership.

Cheaper, And Klaivex is cheaper.

Lost most of the Klaivex options.

Mandrakes.

Same statline, cheaper, Bale blast is wargear.

Harlequins....... Not in the sodding book.

Wracks

same stat line, same rules, same wargear in all but name. Same cost.
Some new wargear options.

Grots.

Same stat line, same cost, better wargear.

Unit wide liquifier gun option.

Beastmasters.

same stat lines, but it's a new unit in essence. The options on what you have to take are different. 1-12 model selection and your not limited by beastmasters anymore.

Raider- same but you pay for DL's now. Dissies and Night field have changed dramatically.

Venom - no change.

Reavers

same stat line, special rules and wargear.

Caltrops no longer work it's a Hammer of wrath bonus. Gained hit and run, big points reduction, Gained unit size.

Hellions.

Gained a good points reduction, Otherwise they look similar to the last book.

Razorwing jetfighter.

Cheaper base cost, More expensive with DL's. now fast attack

Scourges.

Much cheaper. Can take 4 heavy weapons on 5 model units, Same stat line. Anti tank assault weapon options available with good range to make effective 5 man anti tank units.

Talos

same stat line, FNP, 1-3 per unit.

Chronos

Same stat line FNP, 1-3 per unit, FNP boosting bubble.

Ravager

Big points increase for Dl's, minor increase if running dissies. Lost ariel assault.

Voidraven

More expensive base cost. Special rule regarding armour on 3 facings. New gun options. New missile options.



Basically it's a bland book.

Some options are better but the book itself is setup for the new business model of them wanting you to buy a secondary supplement to make your army special.

WWP's are something I haven't mentioned. They work like a teleport homer now that is used from reserve.  It's no longer an army wide thing, And it's the same sodding cost. And you still can't assault if you use it.

My opinion of this book... It's a downgrade for 80% of the units. While things get cheaper, They loose a lot of the things that made them special.

Power from pain is also different now. It's a bonus you get based on turn number. So it's actually beneficial to hold everything in reserve just to game that mechanic. 2 archons in venoms with shadow fields hiding. And the whole rest of the army in reserve deepstriking on raiders.....

[gmod]Edited Copyright issues.[/gmod]
« Last Edit: October 4, 2014, 05:15:51 PM by Grand Master Lomandalis »

Offline Wyldhunt

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1447
Re: New DE Codex. Spoilers You Have Been Warned.
« Reply #1 on: October 4, 2014, 01:23:46 AM »
It's sort of a mixed bag for me. I'm happy with a lot of it. I'm not unhappy with much of it. A lot of changes make  us more streamlined but less interesting.

WHAT I LIKE:
* Mandrakes are pretty durable and can start the game shooting.  I actually see these guys being a solid harassment unit now, though I'll mourn not being able to use them alongside Malys redeployment tricks.
* Courts and beast packs' new unit configuration gives you a lot more freedom to do what you want with the unit.
*  Webway portals.  I don't like that they only work on a single squad, but they're much easier to make work now (compared to the old double haemonculus first turn scoot thing you had to do).  Plus, multiple detachments mean I can take enough ICs with portals to let most of my army deepstrike if I want. I'm seeing gunboats on the board turn 1 to lob lances at the foe with my infantry deepstriking in starting turn 2.
* About half the warlord traits. The others are redundant or meh.
*  The beautiful new art.
* Drazhar went down in cost while also gaining the ability to hang out with more types of units.  At the same time, he also gained a buff to incubi squads that encourages you to keep him with them. This pleases me.
* Haywires everywhere. Now my warriors and sybarites can lob haywire blaster and haywire grenade attacks.  Losing them squad-wide on wyches isn't a huge loss for me as many of my opponents interpret the current rules such that only one model per squad can haywire in assault.
*  New drugs are a bit bland, but they're also more relevant. Also, +Toughness drugs on reavers is scary.
* We have night vision! This actually makes first turn dark kin fight rather fluffily. I like it.
*  Grots got stronger.
* Wracks got the ossefactor, and it's a grotesque enough gun to make me happy. 
*  REavers got a buff.  A power gamer I'm not, but their new rules make me want to actually use the 6 FA slot formation. :)
*  The flyers seem reasonably priced to me. 
*  Scourges got better, and I consistently use scourges. Plus, they can pack all the haywire I could ever want!
*  Dark scythes.
* Phantasm Launchers.  It's a cool mechanic that synergizes in fun ways with some of our other stuff.
* Our relics are actually pretty neat, and I see a use for all of them. Compare to the craftworlder's magical feather that lets one guy run really fast. It's cool, but rarely helpful.

STUFF I DON'T LIKE
*  Power From Pain.  It's nice that you don't lose all your pain when you lose the squad with all your tokens, but it feels like it takes forever to get revved up.  We're even squishier than before for the first few turns, and maxed out FNP only manages to equal what it originally was in the last'dex if you buff it with extraunits. On the plus side, your whole army benefits now. It's a pretty fair trade-off. I  just don't see it meshing well with how I used to play my dark kin.
* Cronos. I liked these guys last codex.  They weren't amazing against most armies, but they were fun, and it was nice to watch them buff the rest of your army as they did damage.  Now, they cost more, they don't buff anyone with their attacks, and their template got weaker. You can run them in squads of three if you want to, but there are few situations where I see it as an advantage to pay that many points for a squad with such little offensive power, especially when you could just run them separately to expand you buff range.  I guess having less reason for shooting means I have less reason to pay for their overpriced upgrades and can focus on running them to help them keep up with other units?
* Harlequins are gone. I was crossing my fingers that they would get an overhaul that fixed some of their ongoing issues.  Instead, we get tantalized by harlie fluff, but the rules are simply missing. Maybe we'll get lucky and get some sort of splat for them later?  Ah well. New fluff is always nice I suppose.  Shadowseers have it rough in a psykerless army anyway.
*  Many of our wargear items just became a bit bland. They aren't bad. Just bland.  Mindphase gauntlet ceased to be a cool way to shut down heavy hitters and instead simply became concussive.  A ton of our weapons are simply instant death now. Which isn't bad, just... bland.  The wych weapons all feel like they're minor variations on the same theme.  Also, the pricing on stuff is awkward.  Agonisers are really steep for what they do, as are power swords.  And I do mean power swords.  No axes or lances for you. Or am I the only one who liked power lances on eldar for the bonus strength?  As an aside, what's the difference between a whip-shaped agoniser and an electrocorrosive whip. They both seem to be slimy whips that poison/zap people.
* Lack of special characters.  GW's reasons for removing them irk me, and I really liked the fluff of each of them. 
* I take personal offense to the treatment of my kabal of choice, the Poisoned Tongue. They don't get their own fluff block alongside several other kabals I either don't remember or haven't heard of.  There's even a bit of fluff under one of the modelling pictures talking about how Malys often fights through her emissaries. I actually like that bit, but it just sort of exagerates my feelings that Malys feels missing. :(
*Lelith. I'm iffy on this one. She's actually probably more effective than she was before, and her price is lower, but a League Apart now only works in challenges and no longer lets you get ALL THE ATTACKS.  The whole point of the rule before was to let you slice and dice entire squads of infantry guys so you could show off how much better the true kin are than the lesser races (even if you usually only killed a couple guys).  She's probably more useful now, and she's a good challenge fighter. It just feels off. I miss my anime-style whirlwind of graceful death.
*New archon model. Is it new?  I remember liking the one from before with the helmet. Scarface looks like a cartoon villain that you beat down before you're allowed to face the serious villain. "dohohoho. Look at the little mon-keigh. did you really think you could stop my evil plan? Mwahahaha!"
*Klaivex lost bloodstones. Because reasons. Seriously, I know most people didn't take them, but did you really need the extra page space badly enough to delete them? A copy paste would have been fine, and I actually kind of liked having them just so I could do some sort of overwatch when my incubi got charged.
*  Hellion changes to the stun claw. See the bi about wargear. Plus, this deprives us of a potentially neat way to counter deathstars by pulling out key models.
*  Kabalite raiding party.  This is almost really cool.  Mandatory scourges confuses me, but I use them anyway.  Mandatory hellions means I can't use it, but I'm not sure why you need hellions specifically to play a swift raiding force. Maybe GW just really wanted to push more hellion models?  Or maybe hellions have just been finding new work since their buddy the baron vanished into the webway?  Anywho, the main problem I have with it is Hunt from the Shadows.  A little piece of cover is nice, but jinking already gives me a better save.  I guess I can avoid having to jink if I don't mind a reduced save on the first turn, but I'd rather not put all my eggs in a 5+ basket.  And that's when it's a 5+.  For a lot of units, it's a measley 6+.  Simply guaranteeing nightfighting first turn or something would probably be more consistently useful (for me at least).  On the other hand, it does provide infiltrating mandrakes with a 2+ cover save on turn 1, so that's nice. It's not bad really.  I just don't get some of the mandatory units required for it, and Hunt from the Shadows is only really useful for those of you comfortable not jinking turn 1.  And even that is less of an issue if you also have night shields.

CONCLUSIONS:
It's a solid book. I just wish they didn't feel the need to take away the nice stuff from the last codex while making this one.  Also, poor Cronos. :(  Still, I see myself having fun with it. :)

Offline Plastikente

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 505
  • Country: gb
  • Back Online!
  • Armies: Craftworld Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau
Re: New DE Codex. Spoilers You Have Been Warned.
« Reply #2 on: October 5, 2014, 06:54:25 PM »
I just picked up my book this afternoon and have flicked through it for a couple of hours. My first thoughts?... Epic disappointment :-/. They have taken an army that was squishy anyway, removed most of the stuff that was unique/tactical/fun, and nerfed a load of the units into the bargain:
  • Power from pain is the biggest disappointment. You used to earn pain tokens by inflicting pain. Now you get them just for surviving a few turns. That doesn't reflect the fluff or challenge the player.
  • Linked to the above, the Cronos has gone from a clever tool to buff your forces to a worse version of the Talos which has a small FNP buff aura.
  • Reavers' vector-strike-esque blade vanes have been reduced to a buffed Hammer of Wrath. I haven't done the maths to see if it's stronger now, but it is definitely more boring.
  • Removing the special characters sucks, not because of their game mechanics, but because they had great fluff. They added interest and character to the Dark Kin. Maybe they will all reappear in their own 30 update books, but I doubt even GW could justify producing that many for one army.
  • WWP still has the same fundamental problem - you can't assault out of it. And once again, the previous mechanic required more thought and skill to use than just no scatter deep strike.
  • Flyers didn't get vector dancer. So our pilots, who are supposedly "veterans of death races in High Commoragh" still can't do it as well as the CWE?

Now, I know we got some buffs as well, but all in all, I agree with the "bland" diagnosis. It looks like they managed to take a lot of the interest out of the army and replace it with increased access to standard special rules.

Hopefully it won't really be all that bad when I get to play.

Offline Ludo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 710
  • Country: us
  • Why, you ask. Why not?
  • Armies: Marines, Flesh Tearers, Dark Eldar, Guard, Tau
Re: New DE Codex. Spoilers You Have Been Warned.
« Reply #3 on: October 5, 2014, 07:40:09 PM »
Venom spam is still going to be king but I will be taking warriors instead of wyches with haywire grenades.
Razorwing spam is now a thing. The ability to take six of them in one detachment is wonderful.

I can't think of an effective way to play wyches.

Wraithguard with an IC and a WWP deep striking in a fast attack raider is going to be our best ally.

Bomber is a bunch of extra points over a razor wing for a slightly stronger dark lance.

Mandrakes are much better but I don't think they are worth taking.

I like the coven supplement but I do not think I will run pure coven. (I bought the archon edition and have a valid copy). I like the detachment of a chronos and talos and a haemonculus. Or the five talos with scout.

I feel like I am going to have to buy a bunch of models I don't have to play and have a hope of winning.
Smurf Hero Extrodinaire

Offline Wyldhunt

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1447
Re: New DE Codex. Spoilers You Have Been Warned.
« Reply #4 on: October 6, 2014, 12:13:51 AM »
So I've gotten a couple of games under my belt, and I've been happier than I'd feared with the new book.

* Torment Grenade launchers are a lot of fun, but also unreliable. In my game against necrons, they did nothing. In my game against orks, they finished off a squad of meganoz with extreme prejudice.

*Cronos is about where I expected it to be.  I'm basically paying more points for a toned down version of what I got before. The buff aura seems tricky to get in range to be useful unless your cronos is just sprinting across the table. I used mine to hold objectives, but I really didn't need both of the two I took. :(

*Incubi feel slightly better than before thanks to the klaivex's rampage. I still sort of miss the bloodstone.  The lack of plasma grenades is still a pain, and it's cost me my squad in one of the two games.  still, a very solid unit.  Not being able to give them 5+ FNP on turn 1 any more means they'll be hanging out with my farseer or spiritseer in an allies list.

*Webway portals don't have quite the same soul of the old version, but I think I like them slightly better. The multiple haemonculus first turn rush was annoying.  I just wish I could take portals on all my sybarites, hekatrices, etc.  35 points to deepstrike (even with a vehicle) seems pretty reasonable to me.  Retrofires were cheap back in the last book, so a webway portal is far inferior to that sans the lack of scatter.  I see squad leader webway portals as being a way to pay fewer points per squad at the cost of a vehicle. 

*Mandrakes are very snazzy for their points. Baleblasts alone tore up a lot of necrons for me, they can easily have a 2+ cover save on turn 1, and they can easily pull off turn 2 charges with infiltration and fleet. They're also a nice way to get those hard-to-reach maelstrom objectives. I like 'em! Though I do still miss Malys. ;_; At least she does get a mention or two in the fluff part of the book.

* Wyches aren't as bad as people seem to be making them out.  My local group already plays it such that you can only use one haywire per squad in the assault phase, so that's no great loss for me.  The hekatrix can take them for cheap.  If you're taking a hekatrix at all, you aren't missing out on much, and you should probably take the 'trix if only for the fun of a torment grenade launcher. :)  The drugs are fine. Not inspiring, but good enough to do reasonable damage on the charge, and they still tarpit certain untis quite well.  I like to set my incubi up for an assault by sending wyches in first. Haywire tank hunters were cool, but the wyches are reasonably competent as melee troops. They're probably slightly worse at their old job than they were due to the changes to power from pain, but I 'unno. They seem to be working for me. They kill things that are bad in melee and tarpit things that are good in melee.

* I like all the haywire launcher prevalence on paper, but my luck with them has been terrible so far. witholding judgement there for now, but I like them in theory.

* Power From Pain just isn't as exciting as before. Maybe I'll change my mind with more games, but... eh.  It lacks the visceral reward of, "I killed you, now give me your pain so I can grow stronger!"  We're squishier than  before because of the changes to it, but you can basically break even on your Feel No Pain in your most important squads with haemonculi.  I usually get into assault turn 2, so the furious charge is less useful than before, but still nice for mid-to-late game.  It just feels weird to have to hang back the first couple of turns or risk going in unprotected.  In the last book, I could always have FNP when I needed it by investing in haemis.  Taking multiple cronos and/or haemonculi feels like it barely does more than let you break even on your Power From Pain compared to the last book. Not that haemis are bad options. I just... I don't know.  The new PFP is fine.  I just feel like it's a nice bonus now instead of a core part of the army like the old PFP or the craftworlder battle focus.  Going from a 4+ FNP army to a 5+ one in 6th to something basically even squishier than that in the new book sort of chafes too.

*Lelith is probably better now.  She's a bit meh without someone to challenge, but she is a respectably scary challenge fighter now. She lost her anime-style spinning kill move of death that let her chop up whole squads with a little luck, but rampage lets her get almost as many attacks, and she stands up to characters in one on one combat better.




Offline Dread

  • Warlock
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1811
  • Country: us
  • Voidraven, the stone skipping across the universe.
  • Armies: Eldar, DE, Harlis, GK, Necrons, DW, BL
Re: New DE Codex. Spoilers You Have Been Warned.
« Reply #5 on: October 6, 2014, 01:30:14 AM »
Nice break down guys. Let's keep them coming. Now Wyldhunt, you can't take haywire blasters in warrior units, scourges only (pg 69). Sorry bud.

Has anyone tried the ossefactor yet? If so, how did it work?

The hexrifle is still a goto weapon upgrade for the Acothyst, IMHO. As well as the flesh gauntlet.

Warrior blocks, hmmm, just can't get away from that. Try as I might, I can't see taking them with so many AP weapons starting with bolters, flamers take the save away no matter which kind, reminds me of why I don't take guardians but with Eldar we have other, I mean more, troop choices such as JETBIKES!! Why can't we get them as troops, well I guess with the new rules anyone can claim, sooo...that point is mute. But still, we can put farseers on jetbikes, why not an archon, goes against the fluff I guess.

WWP, now I didn't use them before but now, even tho I own the cool metal bubble, I,m trying to wrap my brain around how and why? I'll try it out a few times and see if there is any benefit. REading doesn't convince me so I'll give it a go before giving it up.

PGL, I've modeled so many of them and now, well, boink*!!

New archon model, eh, I like my metal ones and my Malys conversion that I will use for one.

My Baron conversion, guess he will have to be a champion upgrade for a unit.

Taking away the multi hammie really hit hard, mainly because I own 3 of them plus Urien. Not buying the expansion so...

Mandrakes, I think I will dust mine off and give them a whirl.

Wyches took a hit in the fact that they will go just like my Banshees unless I just need canon fodder.

Units of Talos, YIPEE! Now just need to buy one more.

I think the liquefier is still useable, even with the str downgrade. Now days it's AP.

So as it sits right now, I plan on using the FoC with the 6 FA so I can use my razorwings and scourges, the big bonus they gave us in this dex. To bad we can't strap wings on an Archon. Or a board for that matter.

Ravagers, so they mess up and take away airiel assault away, so now fragile, open topped and suffer the rules penalties. This one really shook me, I literally have sores on my head where I was scratching going, WHAT!?

So now we just need to get some games in and see what combos/units, for me no allies, to see what can be done with the army now.



"Burning thru the universe in search of peace only brings more war. Peace is an illusion, war is reality, that is the way of things"

                            Farseer Gol'Istria of    the Morea Nebula craftword

01000101 01101100 01100100 01100001 01110010 00100000 01010010 01110101 01101100 01100101 00100001

Offline Plastikente

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 505
  • Country: gb
  • Back Online!
  • Armies: Craftworld Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau
Re: New DE Codex. Spoilers You Have Been Warned.
« Reply #6 on: October 6, 2014, 11:41:04 AM »
Wyches took a hit in the fact that they will go just like my Banshees unless I just need canon fodder.
About Wyches - check out the wording for Dodge (p.79).  "Against all wounds inflicted in the fight sub-phase."  Doesn't that mean that they can now dodge overwatch fire?  If so, that has been a long time coming and should make them a bit more able to actually get into assault.
[EDIT: Just re-checked my rule-book.  Overwatch happen in the charge sub-phase :(]

Ravagers, so they mess up and take away airiel assault away, so now fragile, open topped and suffer the rules penalties. This one really shook me, I literally have sores on my head where I was scratching going, WHAT!?
I didn't spot this on the first reading, and it really sucks.  They have taken our main anti-tank weapon and basically stopped it from being fast if it wants to shoot well - since when does that fit the fluff?!  Meanwhile the changes to jink since 5e mean that you basically have to buy a Flickerfield to maintain some level of survivability without reducing yourself to snap shots.  Oh well, at least the cost didn't go up.  No, wait...  :-\
[EDIT 2: Hang on, you can't buy a Flickerfield anymore either.  Night Shields only, which aren't as good as they used to be.  This seems to be getting worse the more I read.]


* Power From Pain just isn't as exciting as before. Maybe I'll change my mind with more games, but... eh.  It lacks the visceral reward of, "I killed you, now give me your pain so I can grow stronger!"  We're squishier than  before because of the changes to it, but you can basically break even on your Feel No Pain in your most important squads with haemonculi.  I usually get into assault turn 2, so the furious charge is less useful than before, but still nice for mid-to-late game.  It just feels weird to have to hang back the first couple of turns or risk going in unprotected.  In the last book, I could always have FNP when I needed it by investing in haemis.  Taking multiple cronos and/or haemonculi feels like it barely does more than let you break even on your Power From Pain compared to the last book. Not that haemis are bad options. I just... I don't know.  The new PFP is fine.  I just feel like it's a nice bonus now instead of a core part of the army like the old PFP or the craftworlder battle focus.  Going from a 4+ FNP army to a 5+ one in 6th to something basically even squishier than that in the new book sort of chafes too.
This sounds like exactly what I was worried the Power from Pain changes would do.  They have managed to introduce a game mechanic which encourages the army that supposedly strikes with lightning raids to hang back and wait as long as possible until their pain batteries charge from ... hiding?

« Last Edit: October 6, 2014, 12:40:32 PM by Plastikente »

Offline Wyddr

  • Author Eminence: Hereticus Liber Daemonica | Fio'shas Shi
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4962
  • Country: us
    • My blog about SF/F stuff
  • Armies: Daemons, Imperial Fists, Tau, Ksons, Vostroyans
Re: New DE Codex. Spoilers You Have Been Warned.
« Reply #7 on: October 6, 2014, 01:41:38 PM »
From my armchair perspective, Night Shields seem to have gotten better. On a first turn night fight, you're sitting on transports that can swing a 2+ cover save! Granted, it hurts shooting platforms, but if your intention is to assault, it shouldn't bother you much.

I think the days of using Raiders and effective shooting platforms for infantry have passed, though. Ravagers losing 6" of movement doesn't sound all that awful, though a price increase is unwarranted.

Offline Plastikente

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 505
  • Country: gb
  • Back Online!
  • Armies: Craftworld Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau
Re: New DE Codex. Spoilers You Have Been Warned.
« Reply #8 on: October 7, 2014, 11:53:36 AM »
Night Shields seem to have gotten better. On a first turn night fight, you're sitting on transports that can swing a 2+ cover save!

Did I miss something?  Night Fighting just gives stealth.  Night Shields give stealth.  So the results don't stack.  And it's only a 6+ save?...

Ok, so if you are already in cover or you jink that brings your save up to 3+, but not against the many cover-ignoring weapons.  And although jinking is fine for transports, it make a Ravager almost ineffective for the next turn.
« Last Edit: October 7, 2014, 12:06:30 PM by Plastikente »

Offline Wyddr

  • Author Eminence: Hereticus Liber Daemonica | Fio'shas Shi
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4962
  • Country: us
    • My blog about SF/F stuff
  • Armies: Daemons, Imperial Fists, Tau, Ksons, Vostroyans
Re: New DE Codex. Spoilers You Have Been Warned.
« Reply #9 on: October 8, 2014, 09:24:27 AM »
Did I miss something?  Night Fighting just gives stealth.  Night Shields give stealth.  So the results don't stack.  And it's only a 6+ save?...

Ah--good point. I forgot that Night Fighting is just Stealth. My bad.

Quote
Ok, so if you are already in cover or you jink that brings your save up to 3+, but not against the many cover-ignoring weapons.  And although jinking is fine for transports, it make a Ravager almost ineffective for the next turn.

Yeah, it kinda sucks for the Ravager (though you *can* just block it with another transport or unit by having it flat-out or move in the way and, thereby, secure yourself a solid cover save without needing to jink), though the 3++ is pretty handy for Raiders who have the objective of delivering assaulting troops.

As for cover-ignoring weaponry, how much cover-ignoring antitank stuff is out there, anyway? Outside of the Tau and Eldar Wave Serpents (and, let's be fair, the DE sucked against them last edition, too, Flickerfields or not), I can't think of anything that commonplace. The Thunderfire Cannon? The occasional Eradicator? Were your raiders getting killed by Helldrakes very often? Oh, I guess there's those situations where an IG player takes a heavy weapon squad and issues it an ignores cover order but, again, your raiders weren't surviving very long against massed autocannons even with the Flickerfield.

I've seen a *lot* of moaning about this codex, but I'm not especially convinced it's justified other than the fact that the former standard DE loadout no longer works that well. Reavers, Scourges, and Mandrakes got better, the transports are basically just as good as they used to be, the Archon doesn't kill terminators anymore (but you can still take disintegrators everywhere and Incubi still work), and now you don't start the game with certain units having FNP, but instead *everybody* gets feel no pain on the turns you're actually engaging with the enemy. Lateral move, again.

The one thing you guys 'lost' was Flickerfields, which are more-or-less made up for by Jink and by the fact that you have vehicles that can use cover like everybody else, except now you get bonuses to it. Yeah, there are a couple different guns out there that can deny cover, but those are mostly carried by the armies that were just as hard to beat before and I don't see you as being much worse off. I've never seen an Eldar or Tau list that would have trouble shooting down 3 Raiders a turn, anyway, unless you were stupidly lucky (or they were stupidly unlucky). 

Offline Wyldhunt

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1447
Re: New DE Codex. Spoilers You Have Been Warned.
« Reply #10 on: October 8, 2014, 11:10:57 AM »
@Wyddr: If I'm not mistaken, we didn't completely lose flickerfields.  Venoms still have them, but raiders can't get them. Conversely, venoms can't take most of the upgrades raiders can. 

I've gotten four or five games under my belt at this point, and I'm pretty okay with this new codex.  Losing SCs and harlies still stinks, but there don't really seem to be any bad choices this book. Except maybe for hellions. Of course, even hellions have access to relatively cheap insta-death, so maybe they're just meant to target characters these days?  Anywho, here are some of my thoughts from the last few games:

*Mandrakes continue to impress.  Their shooting is quite respectable against the right targets, and they managed to kill something with soulfire. I've never seen that happen before! Infiltrating them is a great way to give your opponent problems, but their dakka is better than many comparable units (scorpions from the eldar for isntance) thus allowing you to outflank them without being too bummed about not getting to assault from reserves.  I'm also a little curious about sticking them in a raider or venom (taken as a FA choice) and using them as a drivebye unit that can mop up stragglers.

*The Succubus seems pretty solid now. I think I like her better than in the last book. The archite glaive makes her right at home with a squad of incubi if you need a plasma grenade babysitter, and most of the drugs mesh well with her when you remember that the glaive is boosting her strength.

*Leadership shenanigans are fun.  Last game, I deepstruck my succubus behind enemy lines within a squad of grotesques.  She was equipped with an archangel of pain and the armor of misery.  My wych squad hekatrix had a torment launcher. Throwing "fear wounds" on people with -2 and -4 penalties is a lot of fun when it works, and the changes to the webway portal make this combo semi-reliable. 

*Webway portals are pretty snazzy. I'll miss the feel of the old ones, but using these new ones is much less of a headache. I still think they should be available to sybarites and other squad leaders though.  Last game, I used the now-empty raider of one of my deepstriking squads to boost forward and screen for my scourges and wyches. Fun times!  I'm also looking forward to using my allied eldar lead by an autarch with them. Not for the deepstriking wraith guard either! The dark kin can put together plenty of respectable portal combos themselves, and the autarch simply helps make sure that those combos arrive in a timely fashion.  The autarch also seems like he'd fit well with a squad of scoruges (adding to their anti-tank), a warrior portal blob (adding to my dark kin HQs melee power and the squad's anti-tank power),

*I have yet to have the new Power From Pain prove especially helpful.  I think it saved a couple of lives in my early ork games and my game against the necrons, but most of the things that are serious threats to me are strong enough to ignore  the FNP anyway.  It's basically a way to keep our armor save versus small arms fire, but only after the first few turns. :\  Furious Charge would be nice, but you don't benefit from it until well after I've normally hit the enemy lines.  I'm hoping I'll start to find that it lets my army snowball after doing well in early turns, but few of my assault units tend to survive to see turn 4. 

*Grotesques are pretty snazzy.  Barring strength 10 threats or possibly s7 spam, they ought to be able to keep your killy-but-pricey HQ units safe after deepstriking.  Rerolling to-wound against most targets thanks to their flesh gauntlets is nice too.  Overdose is a fun idea, but unreliable.

*I played with a court of the archon in one game. I's a fun, potentially cheap unit.  The lack of power weapons means that you'll want to pick your targets carefully, but there's a lot to like in this unit.  I didn't use ghuls or medusae this time 'round.  Instead, I used a trio of Sslyth with 6 lhameans.  It would be nice to have majority toughness five, but lhameans seem hard to pull off in small numbers. Lhamenas are actually pretty awesome for their points.  They don't have any sort of durability going for them (that's what sslyth are for), but they will put a respectable number of wounds on even the toughest foe.  Overdose seems like it should be awesome en masse, but so far I've only used it against an ork star and a ridiculously lucky destroyer lord.  I get the impression that overdose is goign to prove too unreliable to count on, but it's still nice that it's there. Sslyth tank respectably well for their cost, and their strength and number of attacks lets them do respectable damage.  Lhameans + shardcarbine-toting sslyth also put out a decent number of poison shots. I see this build working well against infantry and against MCs with the sslyth tanking hits from MCs. Their Toughness means that they'll get FNP against most MCs who aren't smashing and that they won't be instagibbed either. 

I'm curious about using 3 or 4 Medusae with an equal number of Sslyth. The medusae gazes ought to be able to do a lot of damage when you position them coming out of a transport, and the sslyth would give them a modicum of durability.  They would still die versus shooting, but anything charging them would have to get through a wall of medusa gazes and then deal with the sslyth.  A squad of 3 and 3 wouldn't even be that pricey as far as points.

Offline Plastikente

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 505
  • Country: gb
  • Back Online!
  • Armies: Craftworld Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau
Re: New DE Codex. Spoilers You Have Been Warned.
« Reply #11 on: October 8, 2014, 03:38:21 PM »
I've gotten four or five games under my belt at this point, and I'm pretty okay with this new codex.  Losing SCs and harlies still stinks, but there don't really seem to be any bad choices this book. Except maybe for hellions.
I haven't yet managed to play any games with the new book.  Hope to fix that soon.
Have you found any use for Wyches?  I like the models and the fluff, but I can't see much of a role for them any more.  Not that squads of 5 trying to Haywire bomb a tank was a very fluffy role, but hey...

I've seen a *lot* of moaning about this codex, but I'm not especially convinced it's justified other than the fact that the former standard DE loadout no longer works that well. Reavers, Scourges, and Mandrakes got better, the transports are basically just as good as they used to be, the Archon doesn't kill terminators anymore (but you can still take disintegrators everywhere and Incubi still work), and now you don't start the game with certain units having FNP, but instead *everybody* gets feel no pain on the turns you're actually engaging with the enemy. Lateral move, again.
Yeah, as I calm down a bit, I am beginning to think that some of it is just disappointed expectations.  CWE and Tau got awesome buffs and price drops from their last codices, but it seems like DE (who weren't a massively competitive army anyway in 6th/7th) didn't get much of either.
And I stand by my idea that a lot of the interesting stuff has been stripped out in the name of simplicity.  I am finally going to buy some Scourges and Mandrakes though, which I've never seen as a worthwhile investment beore.


Offline LoH

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 540
  • Country: us
  • MODEL ALL THE PAINTS!
    • SIUC Strategic Games Society
  • Armies: IG,SW,SoB,Chaos Cultist,ImpFist 5C,INQ
Re: New DE Codex. Spoilers You Have Been Warned.
« Reply #12 on: October 8, 2014, 05:25:08 PM »
Yeah, as I calm down a bit, I am beginning to think that some of it is just disappointed expectations.  CWE and Tau got awesome buffs and price drops from their last codices, but it seems like DE (who weren't a massively competitive army anyway in 6th/7th) didn't get much of either.

Craftworld Eldar and Tau were anomalies, IMHO.
PAINT ALL THE MODELS!

Offline Wyldhunt

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1447
Re: New DE Codex. Spoilers You Have Been Warned.
« Reply #13 on: October 9, 2014, 01:05:42 AM »

I haven't yet managed to play any games with the new book.  Hope to fix that soon.
Have you found any use for Wyches?  I like the models and the fluff, but I can't see much of a role for them any more.  Not that squads of 5 trying to Haywire bomb a tank was a very fluffy role, but hey...

So here's the weird thing about wyches.  I started playing before the 5th edition book was out.  Back then, wyches weren't killy.  They were basically a tarpit unit that got better at tarpitting once the errata with rules for wych weapons and archites (proto-succubi; succubi were squad leaders then) came out.  They weren't that killy. In 5th edition, they still weren't killy.  Power From Pain meant that they were fairly survivable (more tarpitty) in the early game and moderately killy once furious charge kicked in, but they were still pretty much a tarpit unit.

In sixth edition, wyches were arguably hit harder than pretty much any other unit in the game by overwatch.  They were low toughness, virtually unarmored, and you generally had to stick a haemonculus with them to let them enjoy so much as a 5+ FNP against the first unit you assaulted's overwatch.  They weren't even as cheap/numerous as things like tyranid gaunts. Their offensive power didn't really change much (aside from the girl(s) you'd lose to overwatch), but people were frustrated enough to stop using them against infantry. Especially since the introduction of hull points made haywire absolutely amazing! So they went from a tarpitty melee unit to a a pretty solid anti-tank unit.

With the new codex, you can't put haywires on the whole squad, so they became significantly worse at assaulting tanks (depending on your local group's interpretation of the grenades in assault rules; mine typically says that you can only have a single model per squad using a grenade in assault). So they lost the ability to be tank-hunting terrors.  I think people started scratching their heads trying to figure out what to do with them now that they aren't as good against vehicles. They saw all these melee-oriented drug effects, the invul in close combat, the numerous attacks on the charge, and went, "Oh yeah! Wyches are supposed to kill non-vehicles in assault!"  Except they really aren't.  In the old book, they were tarpits. In the 5th edition book, they were tarpits.  In 6th, they were briefly vehicle hunters as a coincidence. In 7th, I think they're still basically tarpits. 

So have I found a use for them?  Yes.  You send them into assault ahead of your other assault units, and you don't care how much stuff they kill or how many die to overwatch.  They're there to force your opponent to waste overwatch on them rather than your courts, grotesques, incubi, or whatever assault unit you're using.  They're there to assault the shooty unit (lootas, devastators, whatever) and silence their guns for a turn or two by remaining locked in combat and living off of that invul save.  It's the same use I've had for them since the old days.  I think maybe we just started expecting more from them for some reason. ^_^;

As an aside, my theory of the moment on how to make wych cults work is this:

*Take lots of small-but-not-minimized wych squads to distract enemies, eat overwatch, lock down guns, etc. Speaking from experience, small wych squads with decent upgrades work pretty well when being used in tandem as it gives you more haywires in the shooting phase and half the unit exposure to overwatch.
*Take beast packs and reavers as your hard hitters. Both of these options are currently fast and flexible enough to be used against multiple targets. It seems to me that it would be pretty easy to screen a beast pack with some reavers and or raiders as your sprint across the field turn 1.  Beasts can be built for lots of useful purposes. Reavers can shred transports pretty reliably these days. 

If the fact that your super-killy arena athletes aren't especially good at killing things bugs your fluff-side, remember this:  fights are far less fun and cost-effective if they end after one punch.  Wyches are pros at playing with their food and drawing out every last drop of pain-flavored goodness.  That dodge save represents them cutting their foes just enough to make it hurt before dodging out of the way and mocking him for the crowd's enjoyment. 

Now, that all said, I don't usually run pure wych cults.  I generally have my kabalites of the Poisoned Tongue along for fire support with some scourges and incubi along to help blow up tanks and finish off squads in melee respectively. ^_^
« Last Edit: October 9, 2014, 01:17:40 AM by Wyldhunt »

Offline faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1493
  • Country: 00
  • Armies: Pointy Ears and bugs
Re: New DE Codex. Spoilers You Have Been Warned.
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2014, 02:14:25 PM »
So I finally got my hands on a dex...

um... wow.

So this is just a first impression take on it but I am really disappointed. Warlord traits suck. I don't ever see any reason to take them.

It seems to me that the took some of our situational items that were good, nerfed them, but made them more useful in a all commers list (i.e. implosion missiles -  were they really that op?)

Many of our great option were toned down and many of our bad options were made better - making the codex as a whole seem kinda meh.

I still think it has a lot of potential, but it simply isnt as fun anymore...

Also, one of the things I always looked forward to in every new dex was new stuff... we really didnt get anything but a few bits of wargear. This makes me sad.

Need to get some games in to see how it runs but, overall I'm just meh about it all
So, what your saying is it's not your fault you look stupid by using words you don't get?
Flawless logic.

 


Powered by EzPortal