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Offline Travellar

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So, we got a new codex
« on: January 11, 2014, 02:05:41 AM »
Really, this codex to me looks like the last one with some tweaking of some of the points values.  We lost about as much as we gained, and t least now we have models available for everything in the codex.

Things I've noticed:
Carnifexes
     significantly cheaper.  I felt they should've been cheaper before, but the drop in points is twice what I'd guessed it would be.

Hive Guard:
     Simplified the Impaler cannons.  No more arguing with our opponents whether this is cover the model is in, or whether the cannon ignores cover from something else.  Also, they get a second gun option.

Zoanthropes:
     The living brains grown with the specific purpose of manifesting psychic powers no longer get shut down on a 4+ from so many enemy psychers. 

Boneswords:
     Like the Impaler cannons, much more streamlined in applying their effects.

Biovores:
     uh, probrably still fun, but wow did they get toned back.

Psychic Powers:
     No more Blinkathropes, no more T9 Hive Tyrants juiced up on biomancy.  We get one discipline and that's it.  On the upside, they're all good powers, and the Zoanys are guarunteed, but we lost all psychic flexibility.

Mysetic Spores:
     gone.  just gone.

Tactics:
So much of this codex reflects a cut and paste of the last one, I don't think my tactics will change much.  Biovores are no longer such an extrodinarily good buy against massed infantry, but carnifexes are no longer overpriced.  Granted, we have been robbed of the ability to occasionally drop a brood of devilguants in the enemy backfield, so that's one thing I can no longer do.
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Offline GaleRazorwind

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Re: So, we got a new codex
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2014, 03:10:42 AM »
What do you mean Biovores took a hit? They got even better! They are cheaper, and Spore mines are still the same barrage as the 5th ed codex, but now if the first template misses, we get D3 spore mines in addition to still rolling the other two templates. And while that cluster moves slow, we control it and can charge with it and get a blast with bonus strength per additional mine.

and LOL GW is so bad at writing rules. Notice that the wording of the Pyrovore's explode rule says that every unit takes hits for ever model in d6 of the Pyrovore. Not every unit in 6", every unit! Assuming this will be FAQed right away, but use it while you can. I.e. cram as many gants as possible around that Pyrovore and hope they blap it and boom, every single unit on the table takes a gigantic number of hits.
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Offline Killing Time

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Re: So, we got a new codex
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2014, 12:43:01 PM »
Assuming this will be FAQed right away, but use it while you can.

Or don't, and keep your friends.

Offline Halollet

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Re: So, we got a new codex
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2014, 02:40:17 PM »
I'm itchin to read my codex, but it won't be delivered until monday.  :(

I'm wondering on people's impression of the Haruspex.  Is it infantry killer, a MC eater, or is it just an all around death machine?  Or does it suck?
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Offline Galef

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Re: So, we got a new codex
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2014, 04:05:57 PM »
I don't think the Haruspex is bad, but it doesn't have anything special that makes it worth the valuable Elite slot.

Honesty, Carnifex can do what it does, but has more options and can be taking in units.

But I suppose if you have an open Elite slot (good luck with that) than a Harupex would be a decent addition.
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Offline Melbosha

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Re: So, we got a new codex
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2014, 10:14:34 PM »
Not only is the Mycetic spore is gone but so is Doom of Malan'tai  :-[ , The Parasite of Mortrex, and Ymgarl's :-[.

Offline Galef

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Re: So, we got a new codex
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2014, 10:52:00 PM »
Not only is the Mycetic spore is gone but so is Doom of Malan'tai  :-[ , The Parasite of Mortrex, and Ymgarl's :-[.

Every unit that GW did not have a model for is gone. Some say this has something to do with the Chapter House fiasco over Tervigons after the 5th ed. codex came out.
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Offline Teecheedeedee

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Re: So, we got a new codex
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2014, 06:31:20 AM »
Honestly after reading the new codex, I am completely appalled. I know I will be accused of being melodramatic and negative, but this is almost certainly the weakest 6th edition release.

It really feels like most of the codex is a cut and paste from the previous one, which itself was woeful. Some units that badly needed fixes (pyrovores, tyrannofexes) didn't get them at all. The loss of mycetic spores is absolutely huge. It means that units like zoanthropes now have to move slowly across the board.

There seem to be many small changes that just really irk me, like the swarmlord losing the ability to make enemies reroll invulnerable saves, which is what made it deadly in close combat. Or the reduction in hiveguard ballistic skill. Or the total watering down of boneswords.

It ultimately feels like they took the 5th edition codex, which was already one of the weakest in the game, and in many areas made it even worse. There are some new aspects that seem nice, like crones, but I am in utter disbelief. The artifacts are fairly silly and overpriced.

To be honest I am really glad I no longer play tyranids, because I would be aghast.

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Offline Locarno

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Re: So, we got a new codex
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2014, 10:12:39 AM »
Hmm. Looks interesting.

Good:
Lictors now infiltrate if you want them to. This is awesome as they might actually get some use out if the pheromone trail.

Paired melee bio weapons (whatever they are) grant a bonus attack. And swarm has two pairs stopping disarming strike related cheese with the avatar...

I need to sit down and update the massive swarm of grunts army list. The fact that I have many car nice on stand by makes me happy, as does the change to adrenal glands. Being able to give a carnifex fleet and still cost massively less than it did previously means they might actually achieve something rather than draw fire off the tervigon for a turn.

Wish catalyst had been the primaris power, though....
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Offline Gunner_Sabot_Tank

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Re: So, we got a new codex
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2014, 01:26:38 PM »
Yeah, two sets of CC bio morphs now grant an extra attack, but in many cases they dropped a unit's attacks by 1 to offset this. Also, our CC weapons no longer stack abilities. We now have to choose which weapon we wanna use that turn just like all our food, errr I mean opponents.
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Offline Locarno

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Re: So, we got a new codex
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2014, 04:05:16 PM »
I'm still spotting details, but one thing worth noting -didn't see it immediately - is that in addition to hq units, the trygon prime also has access to bio artefacts. A potential 2+ save in combat on something that lethal is not to be taken lightly.

First thoughts on the srtefacts:
Maw claws -best for winged tyrant or trygon prime. As with any "once you kill something in combat", wants to be on something which will be in combat quickly. Since preferred enemy rolls over to shooting, a trygon's bioelectric shock will be nasty once this is online.

Miasma cannon - good for anyone but better on non assault specialists as it takes a pair of arms. Take on a hive tyrant with a heavy bio cannon to get a serious shooting platform, or on a tervigon for some okay firepower. Pair with the latter's new option of thorax swarms for twin fleshbane wall of death shenanigans against charging opponents.

Norn crown - on the face of it, a 6" synapse range boost sucks. It was the most forgettable of the swarmlord's abilities, and I don't remember ever casting dominion. So, Avoid? Well..... no. Best for a hive tyrant, because whilst 18" synapse is so so, 24" synapse is much more impressive - remember you can have dominion on top of this. Theoretically you could roll synaptic linchpin and get a 30" bubble, but you can't rely on that. Nevertheless, a Norn crown and dominion allow a hive tyrant shielded up behind his guard to control a huge swathe of the board. Avoid for trygon - who aren't payers and can'tbbenefit properly, and tyranid primes, who usually get a 6" bonus anyway because they're attached to a brood of other synapse creatures.


Ymgarl factor - best for assault creatures - flyrants and trygon prime - because it only works in assaults. Theoretically anyone benefits but every turn not spent in assault is wasting the upgrade, and since it can result in a TV 2+ save monstrous creature, it' justifiably a bloody expensive upgrade!

Reaper - best for anyone who can't normally take a lash whip and bonesword. The reaper costs over twice the price in return for an increased - all right, significantly increased - chance to wound. But you can do much the same on a tyranid prime with toxin sacs and hive tyrants do not generally have problems making wounds stick. A tervigon on the other hand goes from a three to wound marines to a two with a re roll and goes from striking last to striking first. An I7 trygon prime is a similarly scary concept


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Offline Halollet

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Re: So, we got a new codex
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2014, 04:43:03 PM »
Looking at genestealers... have I got this right?

Infiltrate forward.  Broodlord can pin anything in 24" range, and then just go to ground when shot at and still use its power the next turn. Meaning that things have a harder time shooting your army; like any basic troops, devastator squads, crisis suits, guard heavy weapon squads, etc. Things that can really hurt your big bugs or slaughter your gaunts.

Would this also stack with the shadow of the warp? Meaning its a -5 to psykers?  Like Grey Knights?  Would that also accumulate with the deathleaper meaning you could reduce a psyker's Ld to 2 for that pinning test?  Take that Mr Farseer!

Then, late game they can just run onto objectives or join an ongoing assault.

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Re: So, we got a new codex
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2014, 05:30:29 PM »
Instinctive behavior has just got serious. Now entire broods of bugs will literally just eat their own faces off... and man, tervigons got seriously hit by the nerfstick... doubling the death explosion range and limiting spawn mobility.

The harpy is basically dead meat as a flier though, no intercept means itll always suffer and its just not THAT survivable... same goes for its variant... which is armed to the teeth but basically cqnt use most of the weapons thanks to being a fmc instead of a flyer.

the new elite big bug seems nice, but why would you take her when a carnifex works better and is cheaper and can be taken in squads and does not take up a hard fought after elites slot?

I like that spinefists for gants are free now... but they still arent very good anyway...

there is a lot of stupid in this book, just from the quick browse I had. Id need to sit down for a longer proper read, but to be honest id feel cheated having to pay for what is essentially a new print of an old book.



venomthropes giving shrouding now is a big boost though, these should be an auto include, especially as they will form the only viable way to walk your swarm across the board.



Offline Locarno

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Re: So, we got a new codex
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2014, 05:33:59 PM »
The tervigon spawn broods aren't as bad as first impression - granted they can't move after spawning but it now happens after the big bug moves, not before, which means more ore less the same.

The Haruspex is a better unit killer than a carnifex (slightly). But more importantly, one bigger bug is better than a unit of smaller ones because it won't murder itself due to instinctive behaviour.

yes, it competes for venomthrope slots, but two broods is probably enough to cover a decent swathe of the board

The hag crone can only fire two tentacles a turn, but then a "proper" flyer can only launch two missiles a turn - and the crone couldn't care less about arcs of fire.
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Offline Colonel Twisting Shadow

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Re: So, we got a new codex
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2014, 12:41:33 PM »
The hag crone can only fire two tentacles a turn, but then a "proper" flyer can only launch two missiles a turn - and the crone couldn't care less about arcs of fire.
A "proper" flyer gets 4 weapons per turn, two being missiles.  If the Crone vector strikes, then it just gets the one gun OR missile.  FMC's have it really hard compared to your usual jets (they always cost SO MUCH more, and with grounding…ugh).

Quite Frankly I'm disappointed, so far.  Goodbye two flyrants + 2 Tervigons.  Goodbye useful Genestealers. Goodbye Biomanacy.  seriously, biomancy was basically made FOR TYRANIDS!  Also, Byebye doom.  RIP.

What do we get in return?  Over my first reading (I've only just downloaded the book), Regeneration stands out as being pretty excellent now.  New Instinctive is pretty sweet.  Not better, but certainly more fun (think like an ork player).  As mentioned, the 'fexes are cheaper.  Sure we finally got figs for the harpy (and it's either/or), but the rules are lacklustre at best.  I'm digging Acid spray, but I don't know who gets it yet (first read through, right?).  I love the thorax weapons, but the this/that/the-other-one would be better served as 'Each turn pick.'  Haywire's nice to see too, but it's not worth the kit your trading for it.

I only have the one carnifex right now (a stonecrusher, no less), so instead of going for the Fex spam GW's pushing, I think I'm going to go rip the arms of at least one of my tervies (or both), and rebuild as a Tyrannofex.  I'll keep the twin flyrants (for sure!), and pack in a Tryprime.  After that fill up on hormagants.

I REALLY would have liked to see warriors buffed a bit.  Shrikes marginally cheaper, but w/e.

EDIT: I kept reading and noticed…
WHERE ARE MY M***** F***** SPORES!?!  I custom built five of the damned things so my bugs wouldn't have to walk like poor people!
« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 01:49:42 PM by Colonel Twisting Shadow »
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Offline Halollet

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Re: So, we got a new codex
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2014, 04:28:02 PM »
EDIT: I kept reading and noticed…
WHERE ARE MY M***** F***** SPORES!?!  I custom built five of the damned things so my bugs wouldn't have to walk like poor people!


I think you need to thank lawyers for that.  But I wouldn't be surprised if Forge World came out with them again and made some rules for them.  Trygons started that way.  Could even see Doomy come back that way as well!


I got the codex in front of me now and from my play style, not much has changed.  (I haven't actually played Nids in 6th edition so never tasted biomancy so I literally don't know what I'm missing)  Which is a bit of a disappointment but nothing to cry about.  I do see some fun things to do with the book, mainly those psychic powers.  I'm sadden by the lack of power from the Haruspex, I was expecting a lot more from that.  I think I like the Exocrine.  People have been saying good things about it.  There are some things that I was hoping for that are in here, like mixing weapons in gaunt and warrior broods. 


I'm having a hard time equiping my Flyrant.  I used to run bonesword, whip, and talons because I play him as a CC monster, but now.... I don't know. I could go the whole route of 2 TL Devourers but I like him in assault.  I guess nothing really.  Maybe that's the best, it keeps him cheap too!  How would you equip a CC flyrant now?

I just realized that a Flyrant with the Maw-claws is super hydreigon!


That's awesome!
« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 04:33:49 PM by Halollet »
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Offline Colonel Twisting Shadow

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Re: So, we got a new codex
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2014, 07:11:54 PM »
@ Halollet: Never…used…biomancy?  It was probably the greatest thing ever…  I can understand EVERYONE not rolling on it, but maybe just the tyrants?  Or maybe the Zoans could have Div (yeah right, Telekinesis then), just for some variety.

I've been reading quite a long tactics thread on war seer, and from what I can tell, flyrants might be the way of the past.  A swarm lord, or a Gunrant with HVC/Strangle and the Miasma-cannon thing, camping with a couple hive guard looks like the warlord of the future.  I'm still taking at least one flyrant, because they won me too many games to not try; but now (it seems) he can take (and then leave) his tyrant guard, giving you an extra punchy T6 mob for cheap.  Maybe throw a prime in there?

For your CC flyrant, it would seem the Lashwhip/Bonesword combo is pretty win right now, maybe just the scytals for an extra CC attack, and to skip converting I think that's what the legs are supposed to represent.  no rerolls makes me sad though; so how about that miasma-cannon for some flamer love pre-assault?  Pricey, but pretty sweet.

You hit the nail on the head about the mixing weapons though.  I'm waiting to see the perfect Ratio on Devil/normalgants, and I can't wait for the million page Fleshborer vs Spinefist thread.  maybe I'll start that one myself once I run some numbers (or google them).

And reviews I've seen on the Haruspex is with regen, plus his eat/regen rules, he makes quite a tarpit.  It's just getting him there.

I'm hoping for an expansion book with pods.  Vanguard, I think I heard.  If that's the case, they'll be my primary detachment, with allied 'normals.'  Way to go GW, I buy a $60 ebook, and the same day I start hunting for expansion rumours.  Not cool.

Your super hydreigon probably has some kind of tail biiomorph too… :)  Good luck converting one...

@ the rest of the board:  I may have been off with my Warriors complaint.  apparently with a little venomthorpe love they're quite hardy.

Also, the Deathleaper is really popular on the aforementioned Warseer thread.  With the new Mawloc rules, and his snapshot thing, he might be a good cheepee HQ, and with S6 rending on more attacks than I have fingers on a hand, he'll probably wreck tanks too.

I'm quite upset with the Tervigon Debuff.  I know they needed one, but the cost increase is just ridiculous, considering the new requirements for the FOC Shuffle.  The Psyker 1 cap is pretty irritating too, considering ML3 isn't all that unfair with biomancy gone.


Quick question for everyone, about the Red Terror: is that cost to upgrade one model to be him, or is that the cost to add another whole fig to the squad?  it's worded like the later, but then he would be CHEAPER than his squad mates?  Maybe the unit is his tax?
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Offline Halollet

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Re: So, we got a new codex
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2014, 08:02:16 PM »
I never used biomancy because I never played Nids under the 6th edition rules so it wasn't invented the last time I fielded my nid force.

I think the sword and whip might be a win for the flyrant.  Charge in an issue a challenge and then smite that character, no damage. During their turn you smash the rest of the squad and with minimal retailiation and hopefully they fall back, rinse and repeat!

For a flame attack on the charge I'll just take a thorax biomorph.  I'm leaning towards the Shreddershard beetles because with shred and rend, against MEQ or TEQ; a 5 wounds, a 6 kills, and then you get to try again with all the other rolls which result in more 6s!  I think that's pretty cool!

The Red Terror is an add on, so you can have 9 Raveners and a RT in one brood.  He might be worth the points too, 4 attacks base, +1 for two CCW, +1 for charging and at WS6.... he could easily be eating characters left and right!  Plus he gives the unit a Ld bonus which helps if they ever get outside synapse.
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Offline Colonel Twisting Shadow

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Re: So, we got a new codex
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2014, 11:29:24 PM »
Wow; I read that wrong, the Red Terror is a significant cost increase, I was stacking him vs a squad of 3, not vs individual raveners.  When I slow down and read it all makes sense…

I still advocate the miasma thing (in addition to the thorax), as you get a 36" range attack as you book up the field, and when your up close, you can fire BOTH templates.  MCs for the win :)  Alternatively, you could run double Scytal, and just smash your strength up to instakil for SMurfs, you'd still be pushing 4+ attacks on the charge (maybe more?  Book's not around).  I might have to get me another Flyrant.

EDIT: misread scytals.  exactly 4 attacks on the charge when smashing up.  Stoopid 2 claws count as one weapon.  I guess the hive mind didn't teach us to count :(

I'm not sold on raveners yet, but if I get them I guess I'm taking the Terror for two reasons: that higher LD (I think Synapse will make or break in this edition); and that sexy, sexy model.

How is everyone feeling about our new shooty prospects?  The amount of Heavy Vencannons we can pack into a list has gone up exponentially, they're practically free thanks to the discounts on fexen/harpies/tyrants.  Or Dakka'rants and harpies with Exocrines and Tyrannofexen as HS…  We could start a war from our deployment zone now!  When you come up against an army with 'proper' shooting skills all these beasts will stomp in CC, even without dedicated gear.  It's probably a lost cause, but it's sure intriguing.

And with what is becoming tradition with my posts on this thread, I'll warm up to warriors a just a little bit more.  Three with a venom cannon might be a new auto include for me objective camping.  I might be the first one here to point it out, but I'm pretty sure there isn't anything stopping us from using quad guns anymore (?) 
I can't wait to convert a bug sucking the brain out of a guardsman manning a quad…

On that point, where was it before that we couldn't man gun emplacements?  I can't find it in the rule book, so I'm guessing it was in the FAQ.  since that's outdated, and the codex doesn't mention it (that I've seen yet)…we're good to go?  If that's the case, it's time to pick up the Stronghold Assault book, and get to scratch building some ballin fortifications.  Maybe warriors in a building for a bigger synaptic net?  I could have something with an actual AV value!!!

I really hope our new codex revives this board, I've not seen this much action in so few days in years...
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 12:06:23 AM by Colonel Twisting Shadow »
Hey! I know!  Let's focus on building army lists, instead of silly custom titles and command structures, yeah?

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I'm both proud and ashamed of those numbers...

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: So, we got a new codex
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2014, 11:36:14 PM »
Any interesting new fluff or is it same old, same old +X Hive Fleets?
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Quote from: Surviving the World
If you can't make fun of something, it's probably not worth taking seriously.

You have to love the smell of science in the morning. It smells of learning.... or perhaps a gas leak.

 


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