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Author Topic: Immortals and Warriors Unit Build Questions  (Read 2260 times)

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Offline Tolvek

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Immortals and Warriors Unit Build Questions
« on: September 12, 2012, 10:54:05 AM »
Okay, Here is what I have.  I have 40 Warriors, 2 Ghost Arks, Harbinger of Despair with Veil, and 20 Immortals.  The Immortals are unassembled since I am having a hard time deciding what I want to do with them.  Here are the options I am considering for Unit Build.

Option 1
2x 20 man Warrior Units (one with a Harbinger of Despair with Veil)
2x 10 man Immortals with Guass Blasters who hijack Ghost Arks
Pros:
-2 large scoring units with the warriors, one of which can deepstrike anywhere and put out a lot of firepower
-Mobile Guass Blasters to maximize efficiency of Immortals to get them within 12 inches plus the broadside of the Ghost arks
Cons:
-2 large units tend to be unwieldy and hard to find cover for.  Plus they are inherently suseptable to blast/template weapons
-Reduce the effectiveness of Ghost Ark since it won't be with Warriors

Option 2
2x 10 man unit of Warriors in Ghost Ark
1x 20 man unit of Warriors with Harbinger
2x 10 man unit of Immortals with Tesla
Pros:
-Still have large unit for objective taking that can be put anywhere on the table
-Maximize efficiency of Ghost Arks
Cons:
-A little less tank stripping efficiency than Option 1 due to Tesla (though that is mitigate by the str of Tesla vs AV11 and lower)
-Instead of having just one footslog unit, I have 2 with immortals though their threat range is a bit higher with less shots (I know Tesla get plus hits rolling a 6 but it doesn't seem like it would even out to me)

Option 3
I have no option 3 but would like one if any of you have any innovative ideas to throw my way. 

Thank you for any help you give me.

Edit:  Should have included what I normally face.  Marines and Eldar, every now and then Tau but I do go to my LGS sporadically so I can end up playing against damn near anything.  Also planning for 2500pt games if that helps at all.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 11:04:27 AM by Tolvek »

Offline Shas'Oink

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Re: Immortals and Warriors Unit Build Questions
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2012, 11:22:21 AM »
If you are definately going to use all the warriors, all the time, then you are probably right to question whether or not you need more Gauss... and also remember that Tesla are assault weapons so let you charge after firing too.

With that in mind, you've probably got your options about right, Gauss seems to work well out of vehicles because when you jump out you can't charge anyway. You option two is probably better though, mostly because it makes the most out of each of your units.

Saying that, have you thought about simply building 10 immortals with Gauss and the other 10 with Tesla? I like the increased S of Gauss, but Tesla can be very interesting on overwatch... what with each overwatch hit generating more hits automatically!!!

hmm... I'm kind of glad I haven't had to face this dilemma, as I use the classic Immortals!


Offline Tolvek

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Re: Immortals and Warriors Unit Build Questions
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2012, 12:12:56 PM »
Thank you for your input Oink. 

I thought the Tesla and Guass had the same S??  I don't have my codex handy at the moment but I will have to look.  Modelling up a unit of each isn't that bad of an idea really; it should allow some flexibility. 

Though, I was reading your battle report/unit breakdown post you put up yesterday and something definitely struck me that I never truly considered; Voltaic Crypteks.  Not sure how I missed that in my thought process.  Now if I can figure out where to drop 50 points from my force, I am definitely considering putting those guys in with option 2 using Tesla Immortals since I think I have tank shredding covered with 40 warriors and 2 Voltaics.  So, I think I found and Option 3.

Option 3:
2x 9 man Warriors unit in Ghost Ark with Voltaic Cryptek in each
1x 18 man Warriors unit with Veil Cryptek
2x 10 man Immortal unit with Tesla
Pros:
-2 mobile tank destroying units that will most likely delete one tank a turn if they can get within 12"
-Maximize efficiency of Ghost Arks
-Still one large mobile unit of Warriors for Objective taking/clearing plus 2 Immortal squads that can take objectives in my own territory or on the flanks of the battle and use the tesla range while getting into position
Cons:
-Ghost Ark Units will be High Priority targets for the enemy considering the damage it can do
-Ghost Ark Units lose effectiveness if they are not tank hunting

I kind of like Option 3 the best thus far so, Thank you Oink for that idea. 
Openings for Option 4 are now being taken  ;D

Offline Milford Cubicle

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Re: Immortals and Warriors Unit Build Questions
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2012, 04:10:12 PM »
Your option 1 is illegal in the sense that Immortals may not ride in Ghost Arks.

But that aside, Option 3 seems clearly the best (it's also the closest to what I've been using/planning to use ;) ). Since I got my Ghost Arks, I've played a couple of games with Warriors and Voltaics in them, and they've been working like a charm. Even if you're not shooting tanks, the Cryptek pumps out a nice amount of shots to help out the Warriors against infantry. I wouldn't say they lose effectiveness if not hunting tanks, they'll shred most infantry pretty well if in rapid fire range. Yes, they are high priority targets, but the Ark is pretty resilient and all the fire going into them is not going into your other killy units (my Annihilation Barges have not been destroyed in the past two games, and they have been doing awful things to the enemy...  ;D )
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Offline Shas'Oink

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Re: Immortals and Warriors Unit Build Questions
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2012, 04:28:17 PM »
Actually, I think I am wrong, I think the Tesla and Gauss do have the same S. Even so your option 3 does look better... but that's because of the cryptek addition.

Perhaps it would help if you shared the rest of your list too. That way we can see how the troop element interacts with the wider force.

Offline Tolvek

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Re: Immortals and Warriors Unit Build Questions
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2012, 07:56:30 PM »
Good catch, Option 1 is invalid, I never noticed that Ghost Arks can not carry immortals.  Good thing I haven't tried that yet, just been toting around my Warriors.  The rest of the army list is kind of a mismatch of different things that I had before the new codex and things I wanted to try out with the new codex.  Thus far, I have been pleased with its performance in 2k points games.  Here is the rest of it for reference.

HQ- Necron Overlord on Catacomb Command Barge w/ Warscythe and mindshackle scarabs (yeah, he pretty much runs around and harrasses anything and everything I want him too)

Elite- 10 Deathmarks (fun unit, still not sure if I am getting their effectiveness out of them yet)
Elite- Triach Stalker with Particle Shredder (I don't see anyone really using this but I find that the high str large blast template works wonders even against marines but much more effective vs eldar, tau, and bugs due to its ap)

Troops-  already listed in above post with the crypteks added in(both option 3 and option 2 work in this though the points value that is listed is for option 3 since I am really leaning

Fast Attack- 7 Canoptek Scarabs (these are my wild card throw away unit used to break down tank armor, tie up an enemy unit in assault, or play the look at me game in hopes they draw fire vice something more important)
Fast Attack- 5 Destroyers (great against Marine combat squads especially with the changes to preferred enemy though their shorter range means I need to be a lot more careful with them)
Fast Attack- 5 Tomb Blades with particle shredder (again, I don't see a lot of people take this configuration but for troop hunting you get 5 decent str blast shots that can pack on a lot of wounds)

Heavy Support- Of course; Doom Scythe (still possibly the best flyer in the game)
Heavy Support- Doomsday Ark (yes, I am one of those people that swear by it; the long range very high str lowest AP Large Blast finds me more often deploying on a fire lane and wrecking anything walking into its path)

Comes out to 2493 points because I can't find anything to fill the extra 7 points with to make it 2500pts.  This army has worked well broken down at 2000 points for me so I am not really looking for comments on it though, if you really have something for me to consider, please feel free to do so.

Thus far, I am really liking Option 3.  I really need to get some inspiration to convert some spare parts up to Harbingers of the Storm though.  Thank you guys for your help.  40k online is by far the best forums for advice (never had anyone go on a nerdrage about "you must do this or you will lose every game" on these boards and always have gotten great advice and ideas to put into games; You guys are awesome).

Offline Shas'Oink

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Re: Immortals and Warriors Unit Build Questions
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2012, 07:11:44 AM »
I'm not so certain that the doom scythe is that efficient really. The ray is a cool weapon for sure, but you pay 75pts for it. and that is a lot. I spent ages list building and in the end dropped the two doom scythes I was going to run and instead turned one into a(nother) night scythe with the remaining points being used to put in two annihlation barges! You may want to consider using the doom scythe as a night scythe and transport a unit instead. Indeed, a unit of immortals with a voltaic tek in there could be used to drop anywhere on the board (and kill a tank when they get there).

I think that paired with the doomsday ark, a pair of ghost arks will be pretty nice. You'll present a lot of AV13 to the enemy which will be difficult for them to deal with.


Offline Tolvek

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Re: Immortals and Warriors Unit Build Questions
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2012, 07:55:12 AM »
I have had a lot of success with the death ray on the Doom Scythe which means I am very reluctant to drop that from my list.  I use it often to go after high value tanks or enemies that keep their transports close together.  The Deathray has been underwhelming before though basically only hitting a couple models due to low distance roll or just no good targets out there but, more often times than not, it has proven to be well worth it to me.  Besides, as of right now, I am planning on going with Tesla Immortals which I don't think will meld well with a Voltaic Cryptek in a Nightscythe.

Something I have to ask is what I am missing about the Annihilation Barge.  I know the Tesla Destructor is a good higher strength weapon but I am not sure on how the arcing thing works.  Does it work separately for each of the destructors shots (i.e. if I hit with all 4 do I get 4 arc chances against all units in range) or does it only work on the first shot that hits.  The confusion comes from the wording about initial shot really.  I mean, if all 4 shots get Arc chance then I could see it being pretty nasty and understand why it would be taken.

Of course, I think at this point, my primary question has been answered (what to do with my troops in this force; going with Option 3) so I am quite content with leaving this post as is though I would really like someone much wiser than I to explain how the Tesla Destructor actually works anyway so I can eventually figure out what I need to expand this force to 3k points.  Thank you.

Offline CloverSquirrel

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Re: Immortals and Warriors Unit Build Questions
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2012, 08:10:30 AM »
Something I have to ask is what I am missing about the Annihilation Barge.  I know the Tesla Destructor is a good higher strength weapon but I am not sure on how the arcing thing works.  Does it work separately for each of the destructors shots (i.e. if I hit with all 4 do I get 4 arc chances against all units in range) or does it only work on the first shot that hits.  The confusion comes from the wording about initial shot really.  I mean, if all 4 shots get Arc chance then I could see it being pretty nasty and understand why it would be taken.

When the Tesla Destructor gets hits on a unit, as long as the unit is alive when the wounds have all been allocated you will then have the one arc roll. You can then measure to see what is in 6" of the unit, including your own units, and roll a die for each one, with the Arc effect happening on a roll of 6. Any cover saves will be determined from the position of the Annihilation Barge itself, rather then the unit it shot at.

I think one of the main things I am seeing the Annihilation Barge get taken for now is anti-air fire, as even though it doesn't have SkyFire it can easily wreck a flyer thanks to it's Tesla Destructor, as it is Twin-Linked, gets 2 bonus hits on rolls of 6 and then will be glancing them (on average) with rolls of 3 or 4.
Battle record:
W:22  L:8  D:2
Tesseract Labyrinth'd:
2xHive Tyrant, 1xWolf Priest, 1xVulkan He'stan, 2xLogan Grimnar, 1xTrygon Prime, 1xDaemon Prince, 1xChaos Lord, 1xChaos Sorcerer
Tournaments:
40kOnline 2012 UK: 5th

Offline Herm_777

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Re: Immortals and Warriors Unit Build Questions
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2012, 06:51:35 PM »
Wait, hold on, why can't immortals use the ghost arc?

Just because the ghost arc isn't a dedicated transport for immortals doesn't mean they can't board the arc on the first turn. 

Offline CloverSquirrel

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Re: Immortals and Warriors Unit Build Questions
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2012, 07:40:44 PM »
Wait, hold on, why can't immortals use the ghost arc?

Just because the ghost arc isn't a dedicated transport for immortals doesn't mean they can't board the arc on the first turn.

The Ghost Ark profile itself on pg 53 gives you the answer here. The only things that can use the Ghost Ark would be Warriors, Overlords, Crypteks, Lords and then the special characters.
Battle record:
W:22  L:8  D:2
Tesseract Labyrinth'd:
2xHive Tyrant, 1xWolf Priest, 1xVulkan He'stan, 2xLogan Grimnar, 1xTrygon Prime, 1xDaemon Prince, 1xChaos Lord, 1xChaos Sorcerer
Tournaments:
40kOnline 2012 UK: 5th

Offline magenb

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Re: Immortals and Warriors Unit Build Questions
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2012, 01:38:13 AM »

-A little less tank stripping efficiency than Option 1 due to Tesla (though that is mitigate by the str of Tesla vs AV11 and lower)
-Instead of having just one footslog unit, I have 2 with immortals though their threat range is a bit higher with less shots (I know Tesla get plus hits rolling a 6 but it doesn't seem like it would even out to me)

I use Telsa's so I can stay out of rapid fire range (SM) or heavy hitters like Eldar Fire Dragons, or other multishot units like Eldar DA's. This is where Telsa's produce more hits over Gauss.

A large 20 man rapid firing squad sounds awesome, generally what ever you are after is going to die. The flip side is you are commiting alot of fire at a single target and you have the potential for the unit to be tied up in CC, I could see an Ork play doing this.

DeathMarks - consider 2 x 5 man squads, this gives you two units to mark for death.


Offline Tolvek

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Re: Immortals and Warriors Unit Build Questions
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2012, 06:42:22 AM »
I have considered splitting the deathmarks up since I have the extra elite slot but, my playstyle, I like to get them within rapid fire range and unleash 20 sniper shots.  It is devastatingly effective but, more often times than not, that unit goes away after it (good thing I generally go after the marked unit when doing that).  I just have to get a couple more games in with them to find the niche really.  Deathmarks definitely have potential it's just using that potential I have yet to master.

The more I look at the annihilation barge the more I find myself debating its usefulness.  I am going to have to proxy one for a game and see how well it works for me.  I like the strength on the Tesla Destructor, it is pretty much a short ranged autocannon with more shots and capability to get extra hits which can be devastating especially being twin-linked.  Add on the fact that it does still have the Tesla Cannon to shoot with as well, one could theorize that this thing puts out 2 less shots base than a HB/AC predator but will more often times get more wounds due to Twinlinking and tesla rule.  Basically, it is Necrons version of a Predator Destructor.

As far as large infantry units go, I love them them.  I base my armies around troops, always have, which made the transition from 4th ed to 5th ed easy for me.  The transition to 6th was even easier with all the "nerfs" to close combat (though the extra assault range is a definite buff).  I have had a lot of success with the veiled cryptek bouncing a large squad of Warriors around.  It is a daunting unit and they will kill most anything that they come up against with all the shots plus the abyssal staff (even 5 man terminator squads don't stand up well against it).  I don't worry about assault that much because of the size of the squad means I am still striking back with a lot of attacks and I am fairly careful about not bouncing near a dedicated assault squad unless they are my target.  It is a nice card to play albeit expensive.


 


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