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Author Topic: The rock to our scissors?  (Read 2387 times)

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Offline Hive Fleet Bahamut

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The rock to our scissors?
« on: February 10, 2012, 08:17:05 AM »
Now some armies are fast, some are sturdy.  Some excel at high points and others when spammed.  My question is this, which army gives us the biggest challenge in general on the tabletop? 

Naturally I would suggest because of our limited range anti-tank that Imperial Guard would be a candidate, but their infantry gets swamped by even the lowly gaunt.  This pushes me towards a marine chapter, because cc is not as easy.  Although their general AV is lower it is stil high enough to make troubles for Hive Guard etc.

Having not played many grey knight armies I am unsure, but they seem like on paper are evil Nid killers.  Force weapons and Storm Bolters paired with incinerators seems like too many dead nids.  Add in any purifiers and goodbye any horde unit. 

Second guess, (again not playing against the codex,) would be venom Dark Eldar.  Although AV lower, that's a lot of poison, and high initiative army that likes cc just about as much as us.

Any other takes on this?  In personal experience any meched up army can be a pain just about.
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Offline Zilverscale

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Re: The rock to our scissors?
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2012, 10:45:03 AM »
Any army that can put down a lot of templates or blasts are evil for horde nid armies.

DE are actuall good vs nids, especially if you include MC's...as they get swarmed with poisoned shots.

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Offline Hive Fleet Bahamut

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Re: The rock to our scissors?
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2012, 05:33:16 PM »
I need to find a DE player in the area and see.  I have played against all armies except sisters, new necrons and Dark Eldar. Also I have played as everyone except these three as well. For the most part there seems to be enough balance that any army built right COULD be a problem, but that's how tailored lists go.

I think a couple of Haemy's, some liquifiers, and venoms makes even a tailored nid list hard.  Throw in their superior initiative and a real challenge appears.  On the plus side, both armies have their share of paper armour, so it would probably be quick regardless.  Hmm interesting..  Anyone have much experience against the True kin?
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Offline The Last Melon

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Re: The rock to our scissors?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2012, 02:57:22 AM »
I think DE are the 'rock'.  I always get WALLOPED by my two friends who both have totally different approaches and lists.  the problem is that their tanks can out maneuver us.  Even if you feild tonnes of Anti tank units, they nearly always get away.  I drives me barmy, especially because my brother's marines can deal with them easily.  :P

My best solution is gargoyls and hive guard, and a Tervigon.  Finding a nice place for the tervigon to hide is ESSENTIAL.  (Trust me.  I made that mistake last time.  Sinaptic backlash.  It was NOT pretty)

But you're right.  Tailored anti nid lists are a real pain, regardless of race.  (apart from Tau.  I never seem to have problems with them.  Do any of you?)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 03:03:45 AM by The Last Melon »

Offline Archibald_Buggerfingers

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Re: The rock to our scissors?
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2012, 07:31:43 AM »
Well built DE are almost an auto-win vs Nids, they kill your HG at range and then just kite you.

JoTWW SW can really hurt any list relying on any of our numerous ini1 beasies.

GK can throw out an unholy amount of dakka, but with FnP on relevant units and cover it can be difficult for them to harm our big bugs outside CC.

Offline Hive Fleet Bahamut

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Re: The rock to our scissors?
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2012, 09:50:03 PM »
Ok so it seems Dark Eldar and Grey Knights can really give us a run with a general army.  Now for the other side, which army do we excel against?  What is our paper? 

Off the start I want to say infantry heavy armies.  Almost every unit does well in CC and with armywide (almost) scytals or rending it seems the direction I would suggest.  Leaving out Tau (due to old codex,) which army do you think is the favourite feast?

We're really in that bad a shape that we don't excel against any army?  Bad form GW... 
« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 10:09:42 PM by Hive Fleet Bahamut »
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Offline The Last Melon

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Re: The rock to our scissors?
« Reply #6 on: January 5, 2013, 05:03:24 AM »
Hey this is a bit late!  I'd have to say Necrons would be the paper, because regardless of how good they are at range, they will be shredded be even a basic general Nid list.  They can get back up, but we'll beat them down. :D

Offline BritishBill

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Re: The rock to our scissors?
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2013, 12:33:50 AM »
Going back to the rock, I have to agree that Dark Eldar are very difficult with their poison, lances and mobility. Turns out they are even worse when allied to an Eldar force where there is a farseer with Runes of Warding.

I got very severely mauled by such a force so I have tried to build a tyranid force that can cope.

What I came up with at 2000 points was :


2 Flying Hive Tyrants with Hive commander and two sets of twin linked brain leach worms.

2 Squads of 3 Zoanthropes each

The Doom of Malentai in a Spore

1 squad of Gargoyles

2 Trygons with poison

2 Tervigons and 2 squads of minimal termagaunts.


The idea against the DE list was if I went first to fly the hive tyrants high trying to take out transports in the first two rounds of shooting and hoping that enemy flyers would not kill them both when they came in. If I went second, I would bring my hive tyrants in on turn 2 with a view to taking out his fliers first, then move onto transports subsequently. In either case I bring the trygons, the doom and the gargoyles in on turn 2 which should be more reliable with hive commander in play. That presents a very target rich environment for the DE on turn 2 (or 3) and should allow something nasty to get into him at that point.

It is likely I am going to have to play hide and seek with the Tervigons, Termagaunts and Zoanthropes in the first two turns which is why I choose the second squad of Zoanthropes over Hive Guard, even though the Guards are much better at shooting the transports. I think I need the Synapse cover and if I can get rid of the runes of warding, Zoanthropes can be very useful.

I have played this list against other opponents and find it to be very resilient, I am still to find my DE nemesis to play against again though, which was the inspiration for the list.

Does this give our scissors diamond tipped blades against the rock that was described, and where would it be weak against other forces.

Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: The rock to our scissors?
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2013, 07:13:34 AM »
It's funny how we describe Dark Eldar, arguably one of the flimsiest armies in 40K, as the rock to our scissors. I'd say they're more the scissors to our paper, as it goes. It's true that Dark Eldar are a tricky match for Tyranids, the ability to spam poison and darklight weapons renders our MCs incredibly vulnerable, and they can probably reliably outfight most of the rest of our units.

2 Flying Hive Tyrants with Hive commander and two sets of twin linked brain leach worms.

2 Squads of 3 Zoanthropes each

The Doom of Malentai in a Spore

1 squad of Gargoyles

2 Trygons with poison

2 Tervigons and 2 squads of minimal termagaunts.


The idea against the DE list was if I went first to fly the hive tyrants high trying to take out transports in the first two rounds of shooting and hoping that enemy flyers would not kill them both when they came in. If I went second, I would bring my hive tyrants in on turn 2 with a view to taking out his fliers first, then move onto transports subsequently. In either case I bring the trygons, the doom and the gargoyles in on turn 2 which should be more reliable with hive commander in play. That presents a very target rich environment for the DE on turn 2 (or 3) and should allow something nasty to get into him at that point.

It is likely I am going to have to play hide and seek with the Tervigons, Termagaunts and Zoanthropes in the first two turns which is why I choose the second squad of Zoanthropes over Hive Guard, even though the Guards are much better at shooting the transports. I think I need the Synapse cover and if I can get rid of the runes of warding, Zoanthropes can be very useful.

I have played this list against other opponents and find it to be very resilient, I am still to find my DE nemesis to play against again though, which was the inspiration for the list.

Does this give our scissors diamond tipped blades against the rock that was described, and where would it be weak against other forces.

It's hard to know in detail whether this list would be effective without knowing exactly what your opponent's army consists of, but as most Dark Eldar armies are Raider and Venom spam with flyers and Ravagers to fill, it's not too hard to guess.

I think, honestly, that you'd be better off swapping one of the zoanthrope units for hive guard, if not both. As Hive Guard can (I think) bypass their cover saves and are impossible to block LOS to, and as Dark Eldar vehicles without those defenses die in a stiff breeze, I think the zoanthropes are simply going to either blow themselves up thanks to Runes of Warding or do nothing while you try to kill off runes of warding. Hive Guard don't have to worry about that issue, and are therefore in my opinion a better choice.

That aside, I think that this would probably be pretty effective. I think you'd probably benefit from running the Trygons naked, as the re-roll to wound shouldn't really be necessary all that often. With that and the points saved from changing thropes to hive guard you could even bump one to a Prime and keep your synapse web in good condition.

Other than that, as long as the Tervigons have AG and TS I think you've got a good candidate here. A pair of dakkatyrants is a solid anti-tank force against Dark Eldar (especially when employing Vector Strike as well), and once the Farseer's in the open, kill it with fire
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Offline BritishBill

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Re: The rock to our scissors?
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2013, 08:53:56 AM »
Chuckles,

Thanks for the prompt and well argued feed back. As you could see, I was in two minds about the Hive Guard versus the extra Zoanthrope brood given this was hoping to be an all comers list that would also work against a fast Dark Eldar list. I am inclined to take your advice and change one Zoanthrope brood to the Hive Guards.

With respect to fine tuning, of the list, I tend not to take Adrenal Glands or Toxin Sacks with the tervigons even though this boosts the termagaunts. I tend to play my termagaunts more than 6 inches away from the tervigons to avoid the psychic feed back on loss of a tervigon. This then nullifys the advantage of the TS and AG. I can certainly see the benefit for these add ons though.

I did not list all the options and points in my post to not get into any issue with forum rules, but with a pair of crushing claws on one of the tervigons, my current list allows for only 10 poisoned gargoyles. My inclination where I get extra points back would be to allocate them to grow that brood.

To date this list is new with not too many games played but has lost only to the Dark Eldar list indicated and to a 1000 sons list where we were playing the only Kill Point mission in the book. The game ended on turn 5 and one extra turn would have seen me table him though. There are lot of chaos lists at my club and it is handling them pretty well.

Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: The rock to our scissors?
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2013, 09:16:53 AM »
Chuckles,

Thanks for the prompt and well argued feed back. As you could see, I was in two minds about the Hive Guard versus the extra Zoanthrope brood given this was hoping to be an all comers list that would also work against a fast Dark Eldar list. I am inclined to take your advice and change one Zoanthrope brood to the Hive Guards.


You're welcome.  :)

It's a tough call. I personally tend to lean towards Zoanthropes over Hive Guard where possible because I think they are a) more flexible, and b) more fun! However, if you know for a fact that you'll be coming up against Runes of Warding, filling your Elites slot with psykers is an extremely risky strategy. Having at least one unit of Hive Guard at least lets you get in some shooting before you're able to drop the Farseer. In a general list I'd usually advocate one of each so that you can handle a wider variety of threats. Hive Guard are great, but when facing a Land Raider Warp Lance is easily your best option.

With respect to fine tuning, of the list, I tend not to take Adrenal Glands or Toxin Sacks with the tervigons even though this boosts the termagaunts. I tend to play my termagaunts more than 6 inches away from the tervigons to avoid the psychic feed back on loss of a tervigon. This then nullifys the advantage of the TS and AG. I can certainly see the benefit for these add ons though.

That's entirely fair enough, if there's a particular reason you don't take AG and TS then more power to you. I would say that the return you get on what is a pretty wheeny investment is worth considering, as you can buff up any termagants you spawn that way, and if you're careful you can probably keep the tervigon alive long enough that synaptic backlash isn't a big issue. Especially when you have two flyrants in his grille.

I did not list all the options and points in my post to not get into any issue with forum rules, but with a pair of crushing claws on one of the tervigons, my current list allows for only 10 poisoned gargoyles. My inclination where I get extra points back would be to allocate them to grow that brood.

Yeah I agree, beefing out the gargoyles would be probably the best way to go. Alternatively you could just use them as a cheap screen with no upgrades and put the points elsewhere, but either approach is viable.


To date this list is new with not too many games played but has lost only to the Dark Eldar list indicated and to a 1000 sons list where we were playing the only Kill Point mission in the book. The game ended on turn 5 and one extra turn would have seen me table him though. There are lot of chaos lists at my club and it is handling them pretty well.

Good to know, I've not had any games with my Tyranids against the new Chaos book, I've been too busy learning to play using the new Chaos book!
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