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Author Topic: Rules for the Rules Board, Rules for the Rules Thrones of GML, Giggles and Dr R  (Read 13675 times)

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Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Or, How to keep the Clown happy, and keep your legs.

Okay folks, I've been one of the Great and Mighty Overseers of this crazy place for a little over a month at this point, and I've decided that the rules are a bit aged at this point, so I'm going to go back to basics and set out what the deal is (having first consulted with my illustrious companions, obviously) here as regards posting habits. Obviously, everything from the 40K Online Rules and Netiquette thread still applies, but I'm going to clarify a few things here that aren't covered there, or explain in more detail how the rules that are covered there work in here.

1) RAW vs RAI: The Great Debate
To those of you who don't know, RAW stands for Rules As Written, and RAI stands for Rules As Intended, and it is one of the big sticking points that comes up here. Rules As Written means exactly what it says on the tin; the Rules according to the letter of the law as laid down in the various rulebooks. Rules As Intended is a little murkier, but essentially it boils down to arguing that a rule applied to the letter is silly and not what the person who wrote the rule meant to happen when writing it.

So we are clear; on this board, all topics are to be treated as RAW. There is no way we will be able to tell what the designers intended when they wrote the books 99% of the time, and the purpose of this board is to establish what the rules in the book say. While you are of course at perfect liberty to change the rules in agreement with your opponent, and to say so in a thread here, or any other thing which does not involve sticking to the letter, if someone asks a question saying "how does this rule work?", "This is how the rule ought to work in a just and caring universe" is NOT an acceptable answer, and will be removed, or just laughed at. If you want to discuss House Rules then head along to The Forge. I'm sure they'll be glad to have you, the freaks.

2) Woooooooaaaaahooooo: Your Post Is On Fire
Or, in other words, flaming. There is often confusion over what flaming actually consists of, so to be clear; on this board, flaming is treated as what is known as an ad hominem attack. That is to say, a personal attack on a poster. "You're wrong because you are ugly and stupid", or even "you're ugly and stupid". That's flaming, and it is a big no-no. It's also pretty common and I'd like to see less of that, and I know the other mods here agree with me on this one.

What a lot of people get confused by is when someone makes a post that is not a direct attack, but is still infuriating in some way. "How can you not see that THIS IS THE RULE!!??" Not actually an attack, but frustrating and unhelpful, as you can see by the excessive punctuation, a clear sign of a diseased mind. That is a flamebait, which is not the same as a flame. Most people tend to say that "I wasn't flaming" when called on making a post like this, as if that were an excuse. It's not. Owing to the somewhat heated nature of many of the discussions here, flamebait will be treated exactly the same way as flaming, as it only serves to exacerbate matters.

There have been many cases where a member has posted some of the most infuriating words that can ever be seen in a rules debate... "Just for the sake of arguement / going to play Devils Advocate here".  Don't.  The rules forum is for discussion, and being the Devils Advocate is a very frustrating experiance to come across both as a mod and as a poster seeing as how 95% of those posts lead into flames getting some gasoline poured on them.  As such, any member who posts a Devils advocate post, will have that post treated as being flame bait and it will be dealt with as such.


Speaking of, the treatment itself. If there is a post that is considered flaming or flamebait, it will be removed. Simple as that. No shilly-shallying about, no calling your local union and demanding a recount, just post gone. If you feel the post had some genuinely useful and informative content, post again without the insanity. If you re-post a flame after one has been deleted, woe betide you, because I just bought a new Vacuuvin and I'm dying to test it.

An Additional Note: There have been several instances of posters trying to moderate the Rules and Questions board themselves. Don't, you're not set up for it, and you're not official, which just means things will get worse. We have the spanking powers, we will do the moderatin'. However, we are not all-powerful. We are, perhaps, 95% powerful. That last 5% requires you, the ordinary posters, to pitch in. If you see someone make an infraction, and ESPECIALLY if it is a flame, hit the Report to Moderator button and let us swoop in like the super-heroes we all are.

3) Look At The Things I Know
Or, how to post a friendly helpful response. Okay, so we've covered the things you shouldn't do, here's one more twinned with a suggestion of how to post constructively. Another thing I'm getting fed up of seeing (and it's not been too bad lately, so well done there, but it's still happening more than I'd like) is people posting such helpful comments as "Look at the rulebook". Cheers, that's helpful. If someone has a question which can be solved pretty quickly and straightforwardly, great, it makes things nice and easy. But the way to help them is not to dismiss them. A simple page reference, and possibly an extremely brief summary of any bits that might prove tricky. Job done, let's go for tea.

On the other hand, asking for us to tell you how to play the game is also not acceptable. We're here to help, not to do your work for you. First of all, before posting, check to see if a) the rulebook has the answer you need, and b) someone else hasn't also recently asked the same question as you and received an answer. If neither of those things are true, go ahead and post to your heart's content.

Thank you for listening

Edit:  You didn't need this in quotes the chuckles --- GML
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 06:23:02 AM by Chuckles »
The forum rules are fair and just. *twitch*

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Just to add one little point in case people think we are overstepping our bounds and abusing our powers in regards to enforcing these.  The exact post above was presented to all of the moderating staff and we were told to proceed.
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
Well I always liked the globals...
I knew I had fans!!!

Quote
"Dark Angels are Traitors" is the 40k equivalent of Flat Earthers.  You can provide all of the proof you want that says otherwise, but people just can't let it go...

Offline Dr_Ruminahui

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Deleting posts after they've been replied to

An issue has come up with people deleting their posts after others have replied to them.  While it is perfectly acceptable for a person to delete their post before its replied to (and indeed, can even be a good idea, as a rereading may make one realise that it unneeded or innappropriate), deleting it after its been replied to causes a number of problems.  For one, its very confusing to anyone trying to read or reply to the discussion.  Second, its can be rather rude as well - rather than defending (or accepting that they were in error), the person is trying to pretend that their comments were never made at all.

As a result, where a post is deleted after it is replied to, and a mod feels such deletion was unacceptable, the mod will be posting the contents of the deleted post into the reply.  In addition, the mod will typically put a note of what was done and why.

So please, do not delete posts after they have been replied to without very good reason.


Inquisitor Moderatis Ruminahui
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 01:45:42 PM by Dr_Ruminahui »
The rules forum rules - no spamming, no flaming, no playing devil's advocate
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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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If at any point you feel that a mod is going against our "own advice" as you say, than hit the Report to Moderator button.  It's present on our posts as well as yours for a reason as there are times that staff do cross the line.  Post like the one above is just a sure fire way to irritate the staff and make us want to find you posting rules infractions.
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
Well I always liked the globals...
I knew I had fans!!!

Quote
"Dark Angels are Traitors" is the 40k equivalent of Flat Earthers.  You can provide all of the proof you want that says otherwise, but people just can't let it go...

Offline Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)

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The follow are selections from the text "Fighting Fair."  Although written for face-to-face confrontations, whether with a lover or an antagonist, it is advice that everyone should observe during a debate:

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Remain calm. Try not to overreact to difficult situations. By remaining calm it will be more likely that others will consider your viewpoint.
...
Be specific about what is bothering you. Vague complaints are hard to work on.

No "hitting below the belt." Attacking areas of personal sensitivity creates an atmosphere of distrust, anger, and vulnerability.

Avoid accusations. Accusations will cause others to defend themselves. Instead, talk about how someone's actions made you feel.

Don't generalize. Avoid words like "never" or "always." Such generalizations are usually inaccurate and will heighten tensions.

Avoid "make believe." Exaggerating or inventing a complaint - or your feelings about it - will prevent the real issues from surfacing. Stick with the facts and your honest feelings.

Don't stockpile. Storing up lots of grievances and hurt feelings over time is counterproductive. It's almost impossible to deal with numerous old problems for which interpretations may differ. Try to deal with problems as they arise.
...
Establish common ground rules. You may even want to ask your partner-in-conflict to read and discuss this brochure with you. When parties accept positive common ground rules for managing a conflict, resolution becomes much more likely.
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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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1) RAW vs RAI: The Great Debate
To those of you who don't know, RAW stands for Rules As Written, and RAI stands for Rules As Intended, and it is one of the big sticking points that comes up here. Rules As Written means exactly what it says on the tin; the Rules according to the letter of the law as laid down in the various rulebooks. Rules As Intended is a little murkier, but essentially it boils down to arguing that a rule applied to the letter is silly and not what the person who wrote the rule meant to happen when writing it.

So we are clear; on this board, all topics are to be treated as RAW. There is no way we will be able to tell what the designers intended when they wrote the books 99% of the time, and the purpose of this board is to establish what the rules in the book say. While you are of course at perfect liberty to change the rules in agreement with your opponent, and to say so in a thread here, or any other thing which does not involve sticking to the letter, if someone asks a question saying "how does this rule work?", "This is how the rule ought to work in a just and caring universe" is NOT an acceptable answer, and will be removed, or just laughed at. If you want to discuss House Rules, head along to The Forge, I'm sure they'll be glad to have you, the freaks.


I would like to reiterate this little section for everyone as some people have forgotten this little tidbit.  This Rules forum is for the discussion of RAW only.  Now, that means that only things that have a page reference in a Games-Workshop publication (BRB / Codex) are admissible for a rules discussion.

The reason I want to bring this up again is a lot of people are starting to bring the INAT into discussions.  While it is a well thought out and informative FAQ, it is not official and is nothing more than house rules for any tournaments that decide to use it.  I just want everyone to be clear on the fact that any posts that say anything along the lines of:  "Well that is RAW, but the INAT says this..." will have their posts deleted as spam as they do not help the discussion at hand.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 07:21:32 PM by Grand Master Lomandalis »
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
Well I always liked the globals...
I knew I had fans!!!

Quote
"Dark Angels are Traitors" is the 40k equivalent of Flat Earthers.  You can provide all of the proof you want that says otherwise, but people just can't let it go...

Offline Holier than thou

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Can I make a suggestion please? Encourage some posters not to post. By this I mean people who are trying to help but say things like "Well, I don't have that codex/book/whatever but I think......" As has been mentioned, this is a rules forum and you can't help if you don't know the rules that are being discussed.
Just thought that deserved a mention as it is that type of post that I see a lot of flaming/baiting directed at.


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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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That actually is technically already covered by the Forum Rules:

Quote
2- Spam is not tolerated on this site.  Spam is any post that does not add something constructive to the topic at hand,

Someone saying that they think this is how a rule works is actually not adding anything constructive and as such their posts should be treated as spam in all respects (report them).

But thank you for bringing this up.
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
Well I always liked the globals...
I knew I had fans!!!

Quote
"Dark Angels are Traitors" is the 40k equivalent of Flat Earthers.  You can provide all of the proof you want that says otherwise, but people just can't let it go...

Offline HiveFleetEzekial

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But that's a handy clarification to have in here, GML.  Some people tend to 'think' that their thoughts on how a rule might be plaid, are 'constructive'. 

Another board is currently having this problem, with new people 'thinking' too much instead of actually reading the rules.

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Well the forum rules do reference here in regards to section 4.D

So if you feel that their thoughts are not contributing to the discussion, report the post and the staff will deal with it
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
Well I always liked the globals...
I knew I had fans!!!

Quote
"Dark Angels are Traitors" is the 40k equivalent of Flat Earthers.  You can provide all of the proof you want that says otherwise, but people just can't let it go...

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Adding another section to the on an issue I thought would have been clear but apparently needs to be mentioned. 

When it comes to a rules debate, only rules that are actually posted with the full description of the rules (ie in the rules section of the rule book) can be used to make your point.  Using the summary / example pictures from the rule book / codex are have insufficient information to be used properly in a RAW environment.  So please stick with the actual rules themselves and not a quick reference.
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
Well I always liked the globals...
I knew I had fans!!!

Quote
"Dark Angels are Traitors" is the 40k equivalent of Flat Earthers.  You can provide all of the proof you want that says otherwise, but people just can't let it go...

Offline enlargingcloud

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Here an idea I had regarding to posts that accidentally aren't relevant, or made a naive point that the poster would like to be deleted.

You can edit your post and cross out a section of text using the font options when your posting. Then you could even have a bold statement below that might tell someone looking through the thread that maybe they can skip over your post for now. I've done this to my own posts when I've missed some wording regarding rules in various threads.

An example post would be (and don't worry, no one actually said this):

Quote
Your rough riders can totally assault through that space between those vehicles. The cavalry rules allow models to fly over enemy models, so it should be easy to just hop over one enemy tank and assault the tank on the other side.

Edit: I misread the cavalry rules, please ignore this post.  ::)

Then people can just skip this person's comment, while understanding the comment bellow that might be utterly confused by this person's lack of knowledge of the rules.

 


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