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EldarOnline => Harlequins, Exodites, and Corsairs => Topic started by: Rasmus on June 20, 2003, 11:13:23 AM

Title: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on June 20, 2003, 11:13:23 AM
After many hours of work, pouring over older lists, reading and re-reading CJ-lists, other people's proto-lists and older things, claimed from the RT era and onwards, and playtesting in dozens of fights against different armies, I will now place this revision on EO.

I submitted it first for publication on this site, but seeing the stream of proto-lists I thought it was not right. I have instead posted it here.

Now, the list itself is not here, as it would be rather big, and hard to edit, so I placed it on my website instead, and ask all of you, veterans and newcomers to the Masques, all, to view this and say if you think it could be worth submitting to GW in the name of EO.

Click here for revision (http://rasmushome.com/pdf/Rev5IP3.pdf) - 5th ed


The list contains nothing new, which is worth pointing out, but rather things that were found in older lists, and in variations of these. Oh, that's true. The Mockingbird is new, but it is VDR, and included more for completeness than anything else. Thank you Wes!

Feedback is encouraged.


*EDIT - I have linked this to the PDF-document instead, for easier reading/printing.
*EDIT - Latest update 9/11-05 (page 43)
*EDIT - Rehosted the files.
*EDIT - 5th Ed up (14/2 - 2009, page 48)
*EDIT - 1.4 (9/10 - 2010, page 57, rehosted 16/12-2010)
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on June 20, 2003, 11:24:13 AM
That is incredible!!

I have a question.  For the special vehicle breakdown rules when you roll a one do you roll again on the table?  Because it says only do this if you roll a 1.  However, it never says to roll another d6.

I also feel that they should be able to take Dreadnoughts of Ork and SM heritage.  This would allow more flexibility.

Also, does the Master Mime come alone?  It says in the fluff it has a student...
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on June 20, 2003, 12:17:42 PM
I will look into the breakdown rue. Thank you for bringing it to my attention

The thing about other dreadnoughts; the history of dreadnoughts has been that is is crewed. Getting the every-dying man in the Sm dread convinced to fight on the side of the Harlequins (since you can not remove him) seems rather a tall order, wouldn't you agree?

Actually, the Master Mime does come alone. Whatever you have read about them always having studnets (which seems rather Episode I to me :) ) it is not something found in the original list.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on June 20, 2003, 12:23:18 PM
When I said the fluff I was talking about the stuff in your codex revision.  Didn't it say that the person heard laughter and a "playing card" left behind my the Master Mime and his student.

Regarding Dreadnoughts they could have easily put in a spirit stone.  However if you want to stick to the original rules then don't do this.

One more thing.  How is a skimmer supposed to use a Vibrocannon?  I mean wouldn't it shake it pieces?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on June 20, 2003, 01:00:25 PM
That would mean that a helicopter shakes apart because of the noise from its own engine... Which is does not. :) Frankly, we know nothing behind the physocs of a vibrocannon, so best not speculate in such matters.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Inquisitor Daedalus on June 20, 2003, 02:50:01 PM
Again, a very nice list Rasmus. I especially like the Flight-belt Troupes and the grenade launchers. Good idea. Bt what would they be dropping from? A webway portal in the sky?
Also the Allies thing is nice too. Ranger and Harlies in the same army! ;D

I think it is worthy of GW.

BTW, can I play test it? I am interested in the preformance and balance. It looks good on paper, but you never can really tell.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: PhoulMouth on June 20, 2003, 02:52:30 PM
umm.........  looted vehicles?   Cmon there eldar. do you really think there gonna use technology from a lesser race?  NO

Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Cegorach on June 20, 2003, 03:50:44 PM
yes from what ive heard they used to do it all the time in RT

so ya they would prettymuch use whatever they can get their hands on

Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on June 20, 2003, 04:28:02 PM
We don't know how the Vibrocannon works but that doesn't mean we should ignore any possible side affects.  However I still feel its best to keep it the way it is.

Back in the days of RT Eldar were pirates, taking everything and using it for themselves.  This list is meant to reflect the harlequins from 1985 to 2003.  It is not purely for the fluff of 3rd edition.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on June 20, 2003, 05:23:50 PM
Quote
Again, a very nice list Rasmus. I especially like the Flight-belt Troupes and the grenade launchers. Good idea. Bt what would they be dropping from? A webway portal in the sky?
They can get out of any webway, and then take to the sky, soaring high above the field until they find where they want to land, just like Swooping Hawks.

Quote
BTW, can I play test it? I am interested in the preformance and balance. It looks good on paper, but you never can really tell.
Absolutely. Please tell me of any errors, omissions or imbalances you find. In my trialgames we found some, and ironed them out. They are gone now.

Quote
umm.........  looted vehicles?  Cmon there eldar. do you really think there gonna use technology from a lesser race?  NO
One of the major strengths of the Harlequins in the RT era was their ability to steal pretty much whatever they wanted; tanks, transports, robots (yes robots, not dreadnoughts, the robots are gone now) and equipment, slap a coat of happier paint and a holo-field on it and roll it into combat.

I have a looted Leman Russ and a robot in my Masque. They look... disco-ish...
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on June 20, 2003, 05:32:44 PM
Rasmus what race had the robots?  Or were they  just their to be looted lol.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on June 20, 2003, 07:00:57 PM
The imperials had robots, and so did the orks, unless recollection fails. However, it is not for this topic. If you want more info, I suggest you try General 40k.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Indro Tyr on June 20, 2003, 10:45:49 PM
Great list, but I've got a few suggestions. If any of you know the rules for Inquisitor Familiars (in 40k), I think most of you will notice the huge differences between them and the BENATHAI familiars. Rasmus, you were on the right track, but I would HIGHLY suggest that you take a look at these rules, they are much more solid than your own, no offense (just trying to help). And if they have a 4+ invuln save in CC, why not just extend that to shooting for simplicity of the rules? Also, why did you include the Venom as both a Transport and Fast Attack? That would be a whopping 85 point FA choice, which is one of the reasons everyone agrees that it should be taken out of Heavy Support. Perhaps just make it a Transport option to every unit you want to have the capability to take it, like in normal armeis. Also, I love the Masque idea, good thinking! I would also like to see some fluff for the Spiritwalker, and such as why you MUST take a Shadowseer to use it (but then again you'd have to be a fool not to take one... they're so cool). One possible oversight was the Flight Belt. Do you still want Harlequins crashing on a '1' in DT? I know the Flip Belt rules state otherwise, but it can get mighty confusing when you have a unit's rules contradicting each other. And might I suggest for the Warlocks;

A - make them a retinue for the Shadowseer himself (and the idea of letting them being mounted on Harlequin Jetbikes is wicked if I must say so myself, think about it)

B - Make them 1-3 and let them detach into Harlequin squads, using the psyhic powers to enhance the unit in the same way as CWE.

So, looks good overall, and let us know if anything is changed.  ;D
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Inquisitor Daedalus on June 21, 2003, 12:13:21 AM
In the Flight-belt troupes section it says:

"Up to 2 models in the squad may exchange their close combat weapon for a Harlequin's Kiss at +5 points per model, and up to two models in the squad may exchange their close combat weapon for a power weapon for +6 points per model. Up to two models may exchange their shuriken pistol for either a plasma pistol at +5 points, or a fusion pistol for +8 points."

Does that mean that you can potentially have 2 power weapons and two kisses in the same squad? Same goes for the pistols. I'm guessing it should be like the normal troupe (2 in total, not 2 of each), but I could be wrong.

I'll start play testing ASAP. :D
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Jonik on June 21, 2003, 05:33:31 AM
VERY well done Rasmus, I will start using this list shortly.

And if they have a 4+ invuln save in CC, why not just extend that to shooting for simplicity of the rules?

Well, the 4+cover save can be fine against most shooting weapons but against blast and flame, they are allowed no save which shows the harlies lack of armour. The 4+ cover save is their ability to move faster than the enemy can keep track of them and the 4+ invulnerable save in combat is their dodge ability.

I think it makes perfect sense :)

Jonik
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: the solitaire on June 21, 2003, 08:29:16 AM
I'm goona give it a test run before speaking my mind. I like what I see although I think that two 4+ unmodifiable saves might be a bit much.

On the other hand, Harlequins have not changed a thing since the rules for 2nd ed, but for the fact that you can now make units of less than 10 models.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on June 21, 2003, 09:35:23 AM
Quote
If any of you know the rules for Inquisitor Familiars (in 40k), I think most of you will notice the huge differences between them and the BENATHAI familiars. Rasmus, you were on the right track, but I would HIGHLY suggest that you take a look at these rules, they are much more solid than your own, no offense (just trying to help).
Can you give me a quick rundown of the mechanics? How do they work in Inquisitor? (no stats or breach of copyright, but just a general rundown, you can PM me the gist of it at least. Thank you).

Quote
Also, why did you include the Venom as both a Transport and Fast Attack? That would be a whopping 85 point FA choice, which is one of the reasons everyone agrees that it should be taken out of Heavy Support. Perhaps just make it a Transport option to every unit you want to have the capability to take it, like in normal armeis.
Because it seems strange to buy to Venoms, one for your Solitaire and one for your Troupe... This way you can get one as a FA, and use it as a taxi.

Quote
Also, I love the Masque idea, good thinking!
Not my idea, but actually in GWs first list, but somehow didn't make it to the CJ one.

Quote
I would also like to see some fluff for the Spiritwalker, and such as why you MUST take a Shadowseer to use it (but then again you'd have to be a fool not to take one... they're so cool).
Fluff and graphics would be added prior to submission when all the mechanical and mathmatical things are sorted out. Thank you for pointing it out though.

Quote
One possible oversight was the Flight Belt. Do you still want Harlequins crashing on a '1' in DT? I know the Flip Belt rules state otherwise, but it can get mighty confusing when you have a unit's rules contradicting each other.
I will put something like that in on the Flight belt. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. Come to think of it; I never rolled a 1 when Deepstriking with these guys...

Quote
And might I suggest for the Warlocks;

A - make them a retinue for the Shadowseer himself (and the idea of letting them being mounted on Harlequin Jetbikes is wicked if I must say so myself, think about it)

B - Make them 1-3 and let them detach into Harlequin squads, using the psyhic powers to enhance the unit in the same way as CWE.
 My original placement for the Warlocks were like that, but it proved to be a poor Elite-choice that way, and also seemed overpowering. This way they are a hard-hitting unit on their own, and a good Elite-choice. If they join forces with the SS they are even harder, of course.
   I tried making some rules for Avatars and Warlocks in squads but it got overly complicated and overly powerful as well.


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Does that mean that you can potentially have 2 power weapons and two kisses in the same squad? Same goes for the pistols. I'm guessing it should be like the normal troupe (2 in total, not 2 of each), but I could be wrong.
Of course you are not wrong. i will make sure the wording is corrected fast enough. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on June 21, 2003, 10:36:24 AM
I feel that the 4+ Invulnerable save is too much after a bunch of thinking.  It would make them way too powerful against IG, for example, with the Shuriken Pistols/bio-ammo to rip through the ranks and then the invulnerable save will completely stop the few remaining attacks.  I have a couple solutions:

1.  Keep it the way it is (I like this one :D)

2.  Make it like Storm Shield for Black Templars Assault Squads.  They have to cut the Shuriken to take the save.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Inquisitor Daedalus on June 21, 2003, 01:52:41 PM
Quote
Does that mean that you can potentially have 2 power weapons and two kisses in the same squad? Same goes for the pistols. I'm guessing it should be like the normal troupe (2 in total, not 2 of each), but I could be wrong.
 
Of course you are not wrong. i will make sure the wording is corrected fast enough. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.  

Damn, I kinda liked it that way. :'( ;D
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: TheMightyPikachu on June 23, 2003, 10:11:19 AM
I feel that the 4+ Invulnerable save is too much after a bunch of thinking.  It would make them way too powerful against IG, for example, with the Shuriken Pistols/bio-ammo to rip through the ranks and then the invulnerable save will completely stop the few remaining attacks.  I have a couple solutions:

1.  Keep it the way it is (I like this one :D)

2.  Make it like Storm Shield for Black Templars Assault Squads.  They have to cut the Shuriken to take the save.

when have guardsmen EVER stood up to anything in hth?

it seems pretty fair to me, considering that ordnance will leave a few brightly colored craters lying about
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on June 23, 2003, 11:29:16 AM
Guardsmen can fight in hand to hand.  It is one of their greatest strengths as they can use overwhelming numbers.  The point is that this is especially potent for Harlequins as at the moment overwhelming them is the best strategy if they get into CC.  An ignore injury rule like this would make them obscenely dominant.

In reality, you should be in CC 1st turn and they will fall to ordinance just as much as you.  Also, that might be within a minimum range.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Grimm on June 23, 2003, 12:59:14 PM
Nice work. I'll give them a spin.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: TheMightyPikachu on June 23, 2003, 01:31:53 PM
Guardsmen can fight in hand to hand.  It is one of their greatest strengths as they can use overwhelming numbers.  The point is that this is especially potent for Harlequins as at the moment overwhelming them is the best strategy if they get into CC.  An ignore injury rule like this would make them obscenely dominant.

In reality, you should be in CC 1st turn and they will fall to ordinance just as much as you.  Also, that might be within a minimum range.

ignore injury rule? it's like a wych's hth inv sv, just a 4+ inv

guardsmen hitting on 5+, wounding on 4+, saved on 4+... that's not as bad as vs marines, where you hit on 4+, wound on 5+ and your attack's negated on 3+

harlequins are also pretty expensive, you'll have approximately 4 guardsmen to every harlequin
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on June 24, 2003, 09:10:21 AM
I know but that is what it does against IG.  My point about the invulnerable save is that when you can easily whittle them down with Shurikens, killing the remains is too easy if you have an invulnerable save.

Also, you will typically not have that many guardsmen to a harly as IG tanks are expensive...
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Shadowseer Amaroth on June 24, 2003, 12:43:47 PM
 :) ;D
This is incredible Rasmus!
Very good work. I checked the list rigth away after your tip, and it´s soo good!
The Familiars for the Shadowseer is my new favorites!


                                                     / Shadowseer Amaroth
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Pendragon on June 24, 2003, 01:14:20 PM
You need not bother with rules for Harlequins. At the Baltimore Gamesday, Andy Chambers stated for a fact that Harlequins would be getting thier own codex. I cannot remember when he said it would be out, but definitely it was coming.

They had a sit down with Andy, where he just talked about up and coming projects. The harlequins were pretty high up on the list of projects that were coming.

Just ask anyone who attended the Baltimore Gamesday and you will get the same response. I would have thought that it would have already been posted on this forum somewhere?

-Pendragon
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: TheMightyPikachu on June 24, 2003, 01:28:40 PM
I know but that is what it does against IG.  My point about the invulnerable save is that when you can easily whittle them down with Shurikens, killing the remains is too easy if you have an invulnerable save.

Also, you will typically not have that many guardsmen to a harly as IG tanks are expensive...

i still don't quite get your point, it's a 4+ inv sv. and from what i know on guardsmen, they don't usually have a prolific amount of power weapons (so the inv part isn't too much of a big deal). You'd still get more trouble from marines bolting your men down and charging into hth.

25pts is a basic harlequin, no power weapons or kiss's.
just pistol and ccw
firing at bs3, he can hit 1/2 the time, wound on a 3+, penetrate flak
then charging in at 3 attacks, at most 4 guardsmen die, which is about the value of one harlequin, and 4 guardsmen dying is at most, not averaged

Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on June 24, 2003, 09:19:59 PM
The point is that it halves the Guardsmens already horrendous chance to kill Harlequins.  It is common practice in GW rules that everything should stand some sort of a chance, except against high toughness.  This is identical here, Guardsmen need to stand a chance.  

When this is combined with the power of the Shuriken and Bio-Ammo, it is obscenely powerful.

Pendragon of course we need to bother with rules for Harlequins as the rules made by GW will probably be full of holes.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: TheMightyPikachu on June 25, 2003, 11:53:45 AM
The point is that it halves the Guardsmens already horrendous chance to kill Harlequins.  It is common practice in GW rules that everything should stand some sort of a chance, except against high toughness.  This is identical here, Guardsmen need to stand a chance.  

When this is combined with the power of the Shuriken and Bio-Ammo, it is obscenely powerful.

Pendragon of course we need to bother with rules for Harlequins as the rules made by GW will probably be full of holes.
what chances do harlequins stand against being shot to death? at t3 and a 4+ cover save, you just need multi lasers and lasguns

and on inquisitor familiars
they enhance the inquisitor's stats, pretty much making them force commanders with s3 t3 if you get all of them
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Shadow Lord on June 25, 2003, 03:07:00 PM
Great rasmus do you mind if we use this in CWEO.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Indro Tyr on June 25, 2003, 03:13:32 PM
Personally I agree on that Guardsmen should stand basicly no chance at killing Harlequins in combat. First off because it's just plain wrong if they do, I mean they already will outnumber them over 3-1 most of the time. Secondly, the Sweeping Advance will butcher any Harlequins out in the open. So a rapid-firing Guardsmen squad of let's say 10 lasguns will hit 10 times, wound 5, kill 2.5. They'd kill on average a little more than 50 points, which wow! That's almost the same amount you just butchered in CC without sustaining any losses, so it all balances out in the end.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on June 25, 2003, 05:52:29 PM
I appreciate any and all feedback, and the list is still being playtested. Some things need sorting out still.
If you care to playtest it; please do, just make sure that any commants, critique or other feedback finds its way back here
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on June 25, 2003, 10:29:31 PM
TMP the whole point of Venoms is to prevent that from happening.  Harlequins, IMHO, are all about waiting for the correct time to start a killer strike that can not be countered.  Therefore the shooting bit is sort of pointless as you SHOULD NOT BE SEEN!
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: TheMightyPikachu on June 26, 2003, 10:49:52 AM
TMP the whole point of Venoms is to prevent that from happening.  Harlequins, IMHO, are all about waiting for the correct time to start a killer strike that can not be countered.  Therefore the shooting bit is sort of pointless as you SHOULD NOT BE SEEN!

how hard is it to knock out an av10 skimmer? you make it sound like venom's are unstoppable

i know guardsmen can bring alot of lascannons, they don't even need lascannons for that, the multilasers vs the harlequin troupes work fine

i guess the game comes down to, shoot down the venoms, or for the harlequins, get into assault

still, even when the harlequins charge, you could use a cheap squad as a sacrificial buffer, when they're butchered, sweeping advance into a wall of lasguns isn't a good idea
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Indro Tyr on June 26, 2003, 01:26:21 PM
My 1,500 point army works on a similiar priciple. I have 3 squads of 6 Harlequins, one in each Venom. A Great Harlequin, Shadowseer, and Solitaire is in the Venoms with each of the squads. Supported by 6 Death Jesters with Brightlances or Missile Launchers they deploy out of sight at the beginning of the game. Then one of two things happens. If the enemy moves up I move the vehicle 12", drop out 2", Fleet of Foot, and assault. If the enemy is far I move the vehicle 24" in the best possile cover and pray that if I am damaged I am destroyed and not stunned, for I'll be right up on them for next turn either wounded on foot or helpless and he can penetrate me. Hmmm... what was the point of this again? Oh yeah, to agree with Infinity Circuit's post. Now I remember...
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: shadydentist on June 26, 2003, 07:08:00 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that solitaires could not ride venoms with a squad because they cannot joint a unit, therefore counts as a separate unit, and vehicles can only transport ONE unit.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on June 26, 2003, 08:01:30 PM
This has been coverered before, but if you want to start up a new topic about it; go ahead. However, if it does not has anything to do with this list; please take it elsewhere.

This goes for all.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 1, 2003, 11:10:56 AM
So, I have updated the list, and I have gotten some feedback. The familiars are fixed, so are the wording on some items, as well as the price of the Shadowseer. The familiars have gone through preliminary testing, but I would like more playtested opinions on this (please playtest it before you comment, as you will get a better feel for it that way).

I would also like to thank those who have contributed with comments and ideas, and hope to see some battlereports soon!
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 1, 2003, 11:13:45 AM
I'm going to playtest this in a 1500 point battle against Chaos basically right now.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 1, 2003, 11:15:09 AM
Good luck and don't slack in letting us know how it went!
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 1, 2003, 11:16:39 AM
Why would I?  I want this too work as much as you do, which I assume is a large amount... ;)

I'm off to word to make my list, cya later!!
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 1, 2003, 12:38:27 PM
I played a 1500 point game against Slaanesh.  The Slaaneshi list was really bad, but I have proved something: Against any Daemon-oriented army, move forward as fast as possible.  Take advantage of your number advantage early!

Anyway, I played this list:
Harlequin Army list

HQ:
Shadowseer
Psychic Powers: Veil of Tears, Impetuousness of Youth
Familiars: 4
Wargear: D-Field, Dread Mask, Powerblades
Weapons: Harlequin’s Kiss, Shuriken Pistol
216 points

Great Harlequin
Masque: Red Death
Wargear: Dread Mask, D-Field, Tanglefoot Grenades, Powerblades
Weapons: Harlequin’s Kiss, Shuriken Pistol
165 points

Elites:

Solitaire
Wargear: D-Field, Tanglefoot Grenades, Dread Mask, Powerblades
Weapons: Harlequin’s Kiss, Shuriken Pistol
165 points

Troops:

3X:
5 Harlequins
CC Weapons: 1 Harlequin’s Kiss, 1 Power Weapon
Pistol Weapons: 2 Plasma Pistols
Troupe Leader
   Wargear: Powerblades, Tanglefoot Grenades, Dread Mask
   Weapons: Harlequin’s Kiss, Shuriken Pistol
Venom
   Holo-Field, Fusion Gun
317 points

1497 points

The only things I lost were 3 Harlequins and the Venoms (Defiler Reaper Autocannon is great against AV 10)

The Slaaneshi played:
10 Chosen w/ Bolt of Change, Lord too
Defiler w/ Indirect
27 Horrors

The Horrors got no chance to shoot, I was too fast.

Regarding playtesting:
The Shadowseer power Impetuousness of Youth is WAY too good.  I mean, my Solitaire could go 38" a turn.  This either needs to be toned down or raised in point cost.

You have very little incentive to use Mask of the Red Death.  You should be able to kill them easily in two phases if you have good wargear, etc.  Therefore, it doesn't really help that much.  It is only good with DJs if they get in combat, but then again they should be separated and one DJ dying shouldn't really affect you.

Familiars are quite good.  I believe that the Benthai however should give something like this:

1st:+1 WS
2nd: +1 WS, +1 A
3rd: +1 WS, +1 A, +1 S

Initiative isn't that good for a Shadowseer but S/A/WS are.

I hope this helped, Rasmus!

InfinityCircuit
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 1, 2003, 02:11:23 PM
Quote
Regarding playtesting:
The Shadowseer power Impetuousness of Youth is WAY too good.  I mean, my Solitaire could go 38" a turn.  This either needs to be toned down or raised in point cost.
Actually, it is just the wording that is bad on this one. My apologised. it is supposed to only affect Harlequin Troupes or Mime Troupes. Initial playtesting showed the same thing you have found, it was just never altered for some reason.

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You have very little incentive to use Mask of the Red Death.  You should be able to kill them easily in two phases if you have good wargear, etc.  Therefore, it doesn't really help that much.  It is only good with DJs if they get in combat, but then again they should be separated and one DJ dying shouldn't really affect you.
I have found it working well when i use a Harlequin troupe and a Mime troupe. The Mimes charge in, those who remain withdraw, and the Harlequins advance in. +1A is a beautiful thing.

Quote
Familiars are quite good.  I believe that the Benthai however should give something like this:

1st:+1 WS
2nd: +1 WS, +1 A
3rd: +1 WS, +1 A, +1 S

Initiative isn't that good for a Shadowseer but S/A/WS are.
How would you think this owuld affect the cost? Raising WS, and first as well, would mean a hefty increase. I doubt it would be worth it, with the holosuit and all.

Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 1, 2003, 03:32:08 PM
Only +5 point maybe.  Rasmus the real problem is that you don't need that +one initiative.  Therefore, there really is no need to take a single familiar.  I think they should have a better bonus to make them useful.

Regarding Impetuousness of Youth--Its still very good, but not overpowered, good choice to make it only Mimes/Troupes.  Maybe Warlocks should be able to take it too though?

Regarding Masque of the Red Death, I still think that if you can't kill someone in two phases you really need to redo your army!
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 1, 2003, 03:58:40 PM
I will consider all of this.

Anyone else having tried this out?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 1, 2003, 04:19:47 PM
I think I might (if I have time) play another game with it against Blood Angels.  I want to see how it does against a CC army.  If I try another game, I will probably take Masque of the whatever Veil and another Harly Squad to test the power of super-drop pods.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Von Lazuli on July 2, 2003, 03:15:30 AM
I personally think that the Masques should be like Kroot evolutionary adaptations (i.e each model pays +2 points or whatever). Because right now you can pay 25pts in order to get 10 Harlequins with the power (small games) or 25pts to get 300 Harlequins with the power (absolutly huge games).
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 2, 2003, 03:32:18 AM
I personally think that the Masques should be like Kroot evolutionary adaptations (i.e each model pays +2 points or whatever). Because right now you can pay 25pts in order to get 10 Harlequins with the power (small games) or 25pts to get 300 Harlequins with the power (absolutly huge games).
Please elaborate on this. What sort of adaptations should the Harlequins be able to get?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 2, 2003, 09:13:26 AM
I believe he means that they should be able to have the Masques, but the cost scales up by the number of models.

I played another game and won.  It was against a Wyche cult, 1000 points.  I deepstriked with the full army.  I don't think that anything is really unbalanced actually.  Actually the cult did horrible placement and allowed me to force a bottleneck by killing a Raider.

In addition, the Wyche cult ability to nullify +1 attacks is realllly annoying...
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 2, 2003, 09:26:08 AM
I see your point. Will look it over.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Von Lazuli on July 3, 2003, 01:12:15 AM
OK. Here is basically what I mean. If a Great Harlequin gets a Masque then it effects all the models in the army, no matter how many there are. So it costs 25 - 50pts to give the whole army an ability. So what I am thinking is:

A Harlequin band may choose a Masque to practice before the battle. These masques are taught to them by a Great Harlequin who has knowlage of the masque being taught.
If the Harlequin army is led by a Great Harlequin then you may select a masque to be taught to the band from the following list. Every Harlequin in the army must have the masque, not just single squads or models.
The masques are:
Masque of the Dark Veil at +3 pts/model.
The Great Harlequin uses his or her intimate  knowledge of the webway to open a portal at a strategic location on the battlefield, allowing the Harlequins to leap upon their unsuspecting foes or snatch a vital objective before the enemy can reach it. The entire Harlequin army starts the battle in reserve. However, you may roll for units to turn up from the start of the first turn rather than the second turn, as shown on the following chart:

Turn                        1     2    3   4+
D6 score to arrive   5+  4+  3+  2+

Before you roll to see which units turn up the first turn, you must nominate a point on the battlefield to be the webway exit (mark it with a counter or coin if you like). Any units which turn up from reserve must move on from that point, rather than moving on from a table edge. You may move the webway exit by 2D6" at the start of each subsequent Harlequin turn (before rolling to see which units arrive).

Masque of the Last Laugh at +2pts/model
The Great Harlequin has trained his or her warriors to lash out at their enemies in their death throes, ensuring that they do not die alone. When a Harlequin is killed in an assault they may immediately make one attack against the model that killed them, resolved using the normal rules. The Harlequin can only ever make one attacks, regardless of how many they could normally make, and may make this attack even if they have already attacked that turn. Once the attack has been resolved the Harlequin model is removed as normal.
Note: This may not be taken by a HArlequin Wrathlord due to the fact that they are already dead.

Masque of the Laughing God at +1pt/model.
It is claimed that the patron of the Harlequins, the Laughing God, saves their souls from Chaos. When the Harlequins perform the Masque of the Laughing God, they call upon him to aid them against the daemons and warriors of the False God of Chaos. Through their ritual dances, they create protective auras of energy around themselves, disrupting the magicks that bind daemons to the real world. The Masque of the Laughing God means that a Chaos player who is summoning daemons to the battlefield cannot place any part of the template within 6" of a Harlequin model (before rolling the scatter dice). See Warhammer 40,000 or Codex: Chaos for more details of summoning daemons. The Masque of the Laughing God has no effect against Greater Daemons possessing models (see Codex: Chaos).

Masque of the Red Death at +2pts/model.
The Harlequins converge on a single point, taking it in turns to leap upon the enemy before withdrawing and allowing another troupe to attack. A Harlequin unit can choose to withdraw from an assault at the end of any assault phase (after all results have been worked out and any morale checks have been taken). The unit simply moves 2D6" away from the enemy unit. This move cannot be used to take the Harlequin unit into a fresh enemy. The enemy unit that the Harlequins have withdrawn from may make a consolidate move. This tactic is most effective when your units work in pairs; one unit charging, and then withdrawing from the fight in the opponent's assault phase, allowing the other unit to shoot and charge the enemy in your next turn.


Masque of the Shifting Shadows at +10pts/squad or Independent Character
The Harlequins dance and weave around each other, creating an ever-shifting miasma of colour. This serves to further confuse and entrance the enemy and makes it impossible to discern exactly how many warriors are attacking. When working out if one side outnumbers the other after an assault, the Harlequins are always considered as many as their opponents, regardless of the facts at hand. If the Harlequins are using Hallucinogen grenades they are counted as outnumbering their opponents 2:1. Note about points cost: Death Jesters pay 10pts per elites choice chosen, not per model, as they are effectively a squad.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 3, 2003, 05:35:54 AM
It looks carefully planned, but also overly complicated to calculate, running, changing every time the list changes to include more/less troupers, and another DJ.
I think a cost for >1000 point total, another for 1000-2000, a third for 2000-4000 and a final one for 4000+ pointbattle is better. How does that sound?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Von Lazuli on July 3, 2003, 05:40:12 AM
Your sounds as though it works, but make the list a bit unbalanced points wise. I dont know, maybe think of the masques like Chaos Vetern Skills?

And a note for Rasmus: I agree mine was overly complicated, and no it wasn't carefully planned it was just yours with the points values mucked around with a bit.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 3, 2003, 09:43:44 AM
First of all:
Masque of the Last Laugh is identical to Catalyst, the Tyranid Psychic Power.  Catalyst costs 10 point per squad, essentially.  Therefore, this Masque should be ten points per squad.

For the rest though, scaling by point cost is good.  Or you could just do something like 1-10 models, or 1-3 squads, or 1-1000 points.  I think that squads is best actually because that best represents the average.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 3, 2003, 09:45:21 AM
So what would be the appropriate costs for the different masques at the different levels?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 3, 2003, 09:52:30 AM
hmmhmm good question.  I'd say that Last Laugh really needs to be costed like Catalyst, as they are identical.  That means 12 per troop squad, as there is no psychic tests and it would be bad to give it to all.  The HQ could get it for 12 for both, or 6 for the Great?

For Veil, I'd say that it should be 25 points per troop choice, but everything else gets it free.  Regarding Red Death, I think you should designate pairs and each gets it for 15, maybe?

I'd never use Shifting Shadows so I have no idea how to price it.

I think it keeps it simple to have it be only troop choices (in general) that you pay for.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Grimm on July 3, 2003, 09:58:30 AM
I think Von Lazuli idea of making the Masque based on models makes alot of sence and I don't think its overly complicated. The cost would be added to the squad and not the Great Harlequin.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 3, 2003, 10:03:43 AM
Its incredible complicated to calculate correctly (my English teach would love that one).  Different costs for ICs, WLs?  No, it is too confusing.  One of the whole points of this revision is to make clear rules that are easy to understand so that GW can not turn it down if we send it to them. ;)

On a different note, look what I found:Harliquin Codex: EO Style (http://www.eldaronline.com/community/index.php?board=44;action=display;threadid=557) This is from so long ago!
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 3, 2003, 11:12:00 AM
Several items from that list that I took into consideration and tried for this list, but not many made it. The thing made back then was all about NEW units. This revision is primarily about using exisiting units. New units to be introduced later.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 3, 2003, 11:21:58 AM
I wonder if this thread will reach 13 pages too...I doubt it though.  I will probably playtest this list tonight at my gaming club using the 40K in 40 minutes rules.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Grimm on July 3, 2003, 11:34:31 AM
InfinityCircuit, I guess I don't see the complexity in Von Lazuli's idea. The way he has proposed the point calculations is identical to the way veteran abilities are added for Chaos Space Marines in the new codex. If GW has already used the concept then I don't think it can be thrown out as too complex.

For Rasmus, I would suggest keeping the Dark Veil as a fixed cost wargear for the GH just like the warp gate in the new EoT list and then have all the others as variable cost similar to veteran abilities.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 3, 2003, 11:36:16 AM
Please give your ideas on what point-costs you would think would be reasonable.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 3, 2003, 03:35:53 PM
Actually you are quite wrong.  It is much simpler in the Chaos Codex.

I already told you my ideas, Grimm what are your thoughts regarding the others?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Von Lazuli on July 3, 2003, 08:03:22 PM
The reason it costs more for certain units is because they benifit more from it. i.e with the masque of the last laugh, which is better, a S3 Harlequin attack, or a S10 Wraithlord attack? Also with the Masqye of the shifting Shadows, which benifits more from having equal numbers, 5 Harlequins, or a single model?

I do think it is a bit complex, so a revision is in order.

Masque of the Dark Veil stays the same as my original idea.
Masque of the Last Laugh is still +2pts/model except Wraithlords cannot take this ability due to them being big, slow and fro that matter, already dead.
Masque of the Laughing God stays as it was.
Masque of the Red Death stays as it is.
I am not sure about the Masque of the Shifting Shadows but here is my thought: +10 pts per squad or Independent Character (note an exception to this is a squad of 3 Death Jesters is only +10pts not +30 because they are still treated as a squad)

I dont know is that clears things up but i hope it does.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 3, 2003, 08:07:30 PM
That sounds really good, why don't you update the original or post the new version with the upgrades?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Von Lazuli on July 3, 2003, 08:48:34 PM
Ok can do.

*Edit*
The original is now updated, as the post is very long I dont want to re-post it.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 3, 2003, 09:07:40 PM
That looks great!  You shouldn't be afraid to repost it, size is no matter, you can do cut/paste.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Von Lazuli on July 3, 2003, 09:10:58 PM
OK here you are Infinity, my final(i hope) Masque rules:

A Harlequin band may choose a Masque to practice before the battle. These masques are taught to them by a Great Harlequin who has knowlage of the masque being taught.
If the Harlequin army is led by a Great Harlequin then you may select a masque to be taught to the band from the following list. Every Harlequin in the army must have the masque, not just single squads or models.
The masques are:
Masque of the Dark Veil at +3 pts/model.
The Great Harlequin uses his or her intimate  knowledge of the webway to open a portal at a strategic location on the battlefield, allowing the Harlequins to leap upon their unsuspecting foes or snatch a vital objective before the enemy can reach it. The entire Harlequin army starts the battle in reserve. However, you may roll for units to turn up from the start of the first turn rather than the second turn, as shown on the following chart:

Turn                        1    2    3  4+
D6 score to arrive  5+  4+  3+  2+

Before you roll to see which units turn up the first turn, you must nominate a point on the battlefield to be the webway exit (mark it with a counter or coin if you like). Any units which turn up from reserve must move on from that point, rather than moving on from a table edge. You may move the webway exit by 2D6" at the start of each subsequent Harlequin turn (before rolling to see which units arrive).

Masque of the Last Laugh at +2pts/model
The Great Harlequin has trained his or her warriors to lash out at their enemies in their death throes, ensuring that they do not die alone. When a Harlequin is killed in an assault they may immediately make one attack against the model that killed them, resolved using the normal rules. The Harlequin can only ever make one attacks, regardless of how many they could normally make, and may make this attack even if they have already attacked that turn. Once the attack has been resolved the Harlequin model is removed as normal.
Note: This may not be taken by a HArlequin Wrathlord due to the fact that they are already dead.

Masque of the Laughing God at +1pt/model.
It is claimed that the patron of the Harlequins, the Laughing God, saves their souls from Chaos. When the Harlequins perform the Masque of the Laughing God, they call upon him to aid them against the daemons and warriors of the False God of Chaos. Through their ritual dances, they create protective auras of energy around themselves, disrupting the magicks that bind daemons to the real world. The Masque of the Laughing God means that a Chaos player who is summoning daemons to the battlefield cannot place any part of the template within 6" of a Harlequin model (before rolling the scatter dice). See Warhammer 40,000 or Codex: Chaos for more details of summoning daemons. The Masque of the Laughing God has no effect against Greater Daemons possessing models (see Codex: Chaos).

Masque of the Red Death at +2pts/model.
The Harlequins converge on a single point, taking it in turns to leap upon the enemy before withdrawing and allowing another troupe to attack. A Harlequin unit can choose to withdraw from an assault at the end of any assault phase (after all results have been worked out and any morale checks have been taken). The unit simply moves 2D6" away from the enemy unit. This move cannot be used to take the Harlequin unit into a fresh enemy. The enemy unit that the Harlequins have withdrawn from may make a consolidate move. This tactic is most effective when your units work in pairs; one unit charging, and then withdrawing from the fight in the opponent's assault phase, allowing the other unit to shoot and charge the enemy in your next turn.


Masque of the Shifting Shadows at +10pts/squad or Independent Character
The Harlequins dance and weave around each other, creating an ever-shifting miasma of colour. This serves to further confuse and entrance the enemy and makes it impossible to discern exactly how many warriors are attacking. When working out if one side outnumbers the other after an assault, the Harlequins are always considered as many as their opponents, regardless of the facts at hand. If the Harlequins are using Hallucinogen grenades they are counted as outnumbering their opponents 2:1. Note about points cost: Death Jesters pay 10pts per elites choice chosen, not per model, as they are effectively a squad.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 3, 2003, 09:21:46 PM
I wasn't asking for it, I was merely stating that you shouldn't be afraid to repost something if it makes it easier to see.

What do you think about that Rasmus?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 4, 2003, 03:19:53 AM
I still say it looks overly complicated, as it mean recounting the point-total for the entire Masque (the old name for a Harlequin army) every time another trouper is added, or the Great Harlequin changed power. There has to be a simpler way. Perhaps the Masques could be altered to that they only affect Harlequins within 18" of the GH? That way the size of the battle will matter little, and it will also insure the central position of the GH in battle. No more leading from the rear.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Inquisitor Daedalus on July 4, 2003, 04:07:26 AM
I think the GW development team ran into something like this with the Kroot and evalutionary adaptaions. It uses the points/model thing that Von Lazuli used in his thing. They tried to think of something better, but coukdn't.

It may be complicated, but it works. If you need to addone more models, you have to add 2 more points, which might bring you just over that limit. It's tough, but it does work.
Title: Re:New updated Harlequins army biulder file.
Post by: Von Lazuli on July 4, 2003, 05:07:47 AM
You see the Kroot one is not the most effective, as you add the adaptation to each squad in turn, thus I think your 18" one is good gameplay wise but it doesn't really make sense if you think about it.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Von Lazuli on July 4, 2003, 05:10:36 AM
Your 18" one is good Rasmus but it doesn't really work fluff wise, I mean why do you become more skilled just because you are close to the Great Harlequin?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 4, 2003, 08:34:15 AM
Think about it; the Harlequins are a highly skilled troupe of dancers and performers, just as any group of musicians, dancers or actors. However, when near someone with a true grasp of the play they are making, the director, conductor, or manager, in this case the great Harlequin, they can mimic him closer, getting closer to perfection.
It would eliminate the more complicated point/per model cost on another model.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 4, 2003, 09:19:13 AM
First of all: Mask of the Last Laugh is too expensive.  It needs to be 10 flat per squad or maybe 11.  This is returning to the Catalyst argument, which is 10 for 32, but requires a psychic test.

The thing is Rasmus, is 18" too much?  Many of these armies will be racing forward at full speed, never that far apart.  And if you use Veil, its a moot point--you are all arriving at the same close spot.  Maybe it should be something small like 9". (I know thats odd, off the top of my head.)  That way, getting the mask would be off balanced by the fact that you have to bunch up.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 4, 2003, 10:04:57 AM
That makes sense.
12" then?

What would be the new costs for the Masques, if they need change at all?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 4, 2003, 11:15:05 AM
12" would be good.

Veil needs to be 50 as it is the same principal.  I think they can stay the same though.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Indro Tyr on July 4, 2003, 12:05:31 PM
I would just make it the squad being lead by the GH. Otherwise stuff could get really ugly with blast weapons if too many Harlequins are getting close together. Also the Harlequin lines are already usually stretched thin, and putting too many together allows them to be sorrounded and flanked much easier, and the Harlequin's speed already give them the advantage of being able to do that to opposing armies, not the other way around.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 4, 2003, 12:06:42 PM
Well that is chance you have to take if you want to get the effects of the Masques. A tactical gamble.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 4, 2003, 05:21:06 PM
I have edited and updated the list. I also revised some wordings, and fixed some typos that had been pointed out to me.

Keep it coming.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Von Lazuli on July 4, 2003, 07:00:11 PM
Yeah I think that the 12" one works, ill add it to the army biulder file now.
And on that note I am working down the list and I have finished adding all the old troops and I am up to the Flight Belt Troupe in the new ones. So it should be finished in a few days
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 4, 2003, 11:40:21 PM
Great Von!  I can't wait to see it.

Rasmus: Regarding the Looted Vehicles, you should make it so that the final one is "Filthy Xeno Construct!" or something of the sort.  Not all of the vehicles are human so Mon-Keigh doesn't apply.

Regarding Masque of the Last Laugh I don't believe you made it to not affect WL, which I believe you should.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: TheMightyPikachu on July 5, 2003, 12:42:32 AM
i still think you should be able to pay extra points for eldar and darkeldar craft that work fine
(gifts, but like... +25% of their cost, or +30, something like that)
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 5, 2003, 09:35:19 AM
That seems reasonable.  Maybe it should be +20% as +30 is too rigid (think vyper...) but +25% seems too much to me.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 5, 2003, 09:39:02 AM
I have a few ideas about that. Let me do the math and I'll make another update within a few hours.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Poueblo on July 5, 2003, 02:18:24 PM
wow, nice list! I've been watching this list progress over the past while, and its gotten a lot better! I'll see if I can get one of my friends to use proxies for the harliquins, to fight my eldar.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 5, 2003, 02:21:21 PM
Great! Welcome back with your comments and results!
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Poueblo on July 5, 2003, 02:31:20 PM
wow, that was a quick response, I'm still readind over parts of the list, but I'll give you some feedback in a day or so.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Archon Gahraktael on July 5, 2003, 05:55:22 PM
First of all: Mask of the Last Laugh is too expensive.  It needs to be 10 flat per squad or maybe 11.  This is returning to the Catalyst argument, which is 10 for 32, but requires a psychic test.

The thing is Rasmus, is 18" too much?  Many of these armies will be racing forward at full speed, never that far apart.  And if you use Veil, its a moot point--you are all arriving at the same close spot.  Maybe it should be something small like 9". (I know thats odd, off the top of my head.)  That way, getting the mask would be off balanced by the fact that you have to bunch up.

they can get away with giving an ability like that away to nids for a cheap flat cost.  The ablility may be the same, but it is giving an extra attack to a harlequin, not a gaunt.  the results will be much more effective, thus, they should be more expensive.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 5, 2003, 07:31:43 PM
Not necessarily, because you can have 3 times as many gaunts in a squad which WILL defeat Harlequins in CC.  In this game, unfortunately numbers beat quality all too often.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Inquisitor Daedalus on July 5, 2003, 10:34:25 PM
Rasmus: Regarding the Looted Vehicles, you should make it so that the final one is "Filthy Xeno Construct!" or something of the sort.  Not all of the vehicles are human so Mon-Keigh doesn't apply.

A Mon-keigh is not just humans to Eldar. A Mon-keigh is a lesser life form, or basically anything that is not Eldar.

I like the 12" Masque thing. It would be much easier to calculate and stuff.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rilmanqualë on July 6, 2003, 01:48:33 AM
Looks good, I'll hafta try it out.  One thing though - whats the point in including the "running off to join the circus" rules?  Its actually quite funny, I laughed out loud when I read that part, but it doesn't really make much sense in terms of game play.  If you can take guardians and scorpians and banshees, and especially wyches, whats the point in playing Harlies at all?  Why not just play Biel-Tan and take a few Troups and a DJ or two along for the ride?  I guess I don't understand the need to include the other eldar forces.  I know all about how they recruit from the other three groups of Eldar, but they give up those ties when they join the Masque, except mebbe a bit of style (ie I have harlequins models stuck on DE Skyboards with guns slung underneath instead of using jetbike models).  Mebbe you could expound on why those options were included?

Rilmanquale, the curious Shadowseer
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 6, 2003, 05:13:53 AM
Quote
One thing though - whats the point in including the "running off to join the circus" rules?  Its actually quite funny, I laughed out loud when I read that part, but it doesn't really make much sense in terms of game play.  If you can take guardians and scorpians and banshees, and especially wyches, whats the point in playing Harlies at all?
I just figured that since Harlequins could be part of the forces of CWE/DE there was nothing ideologically "wrong" with doing it the other way around. Just as a single squad of Harlequins can brighten a Biel-Tan Swordwind, so can a squad of Wyches add flavour and uniqueness to a Harlequin Masque.
Adding CWE/DE allies does not make the Harlequins less unique, I think. And running a single, or even a double, squad of Scorpions with the Great Harlequin, Shadowseer, three squads of Harlequins, Mimes and DeathJesters makes it a unique Harlequin Masque, don't you think?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 6, 2003, 10:43:47 AM
First off: C'Tan Man: They can also take DE and Eldar vehicles, so thats why that term doesn't fit.

Secondly: Rasmus
The problem is that I envision it being more along the lines of having a craftworld, for example, gift the harlequins  with a squad of aspects in return for helping purge a planet of orks.  Therefore, I'm not quite sure if the title is a good representation.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 6, 2003, 02:17:21 PM
Just as little as the Harlequins join in battle with the CWE/DE for the honour of it (being gifts or such) neither can I see the opposite occuring. Whatever Eldar wish to fight side by side with the Harlequins, therefore, will do so without the consent of their respective leaders.
Mostly this is to minimize list-friction, as will occur when cheese-mongers will opt lists with CWE/DE wargear on characters to make the Harlequins something they are not.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Pyro on July 6, 2003, 08:10:03 PM
I don't have much in play-testing to offer, as I don't actually play harlequins, but please take my advice, as I am interested in them and I have played 40k all of 3rd edition (so Im quite experienced in this new addition, and the armies of it)

Alright:
Dismount rules are awesome, why they never had em before boggles me. Flipbelt rules are new and have problems you will see with jetbikes.
Mime disruption is... odd... but because I have advice for your mimes as well, I shall leave disruption until then.

The weapon additions on the jetbike are nice, but your new flipbelt rules present a problem with a lack of saves for models with jetbikes in cc. I'll deal with it when we come to the jetbike squad.

The stormgolve is the replacement for riveblades I guess? I like the name riveblades better personally. :P

The main issue with your wargear I have is the flight belt. The flight belt is too much of a compromise between the phase field and the jetbike. Why take a phase field when you have more assured (and further) movement with the flight belt. I think that the flight belt should be dropped (again). It seems that the flightbelt was added just to add another FA choice to the harlies, which I will deal with later. The phase field is much more 'unique' than the flightbelt, so it should stay.

I think that familiar groups should be armed with S.pistols with bio ammo, not fusion.

You should not be able to 'move' the webway exit each turn, thats silly, you are already giving them something that can be arguably better than a waygate anyways.

In the last laugh, does the model attack back with just a normal attack, or does it use its special attacks if available? (does a power weapon model who dies strike with a power weapon attack?) If thats the case, you may want to make it say 10 points more, Im not sure...

The laughing god masque should keep deamons summoning to 12 inches, so its actually useful, but might need to cost more (its impossible to judge masque costs without testing)

Red death is like withdraw right? Sweet

Shifting shadows is IMO, the ones harlequins need the most, and the most thought out one, good job.

The IoY spell needs a range, me thinks, to stop possible abuses of it.

Master mime needs to cost more points, as he is better than a callidus assassin, who has similar rules. Im thinking maybe 85-95 points... at least. (master infiltrator is a godly power)

The warlock group seems... odd and out of place. Just another group of followers in the army. The powers are too simple, and the rest of the squad too much like other harlequins, dump them.

Eldar allies should be at 0-1(to prevent abuse of other armies choices, and keeping the army still mostly harlequins), and maybe not allowing aspect warriors. Aspect warriors have chosen a path, and probably wont just leave it to go join another band. Guardians, rangers and basic DE units make sense though.

Mimes... I am not fond with the mimes you have put up. Frankly, finding a harlequin that can pass the ritual is hard enough. I think they will give them friggen holosuits so the dont just die soon after they join. Mimes as you have them are probably one of the easiest units to kill, period, we can't have that... Since they are new to the masque, make them have lower stats, but the same wargear. Give them WS - 4 and A - 1, to represent their lack of training. Give them flip belts and holosuits though, harlequins are screwed without them. Make them cost maybe 15-18 points?

Jetbike squads do not get 4++ saves in cc with your rules. This is... odd. I advise you have a special rule thats is throughout the ENTIRE harlequin army (except maybe mimes if you are feeling cruel). If I did this rule, I would give the ENTIRE army a 5++ save in close combat (yeah, wyches get a 4++, but they are hyped on futuristic speed). Independent characters (HQ/Elite characters, and DJs) in the army however should recieve 4++ cc saves because of their extra experience/training whatever. How about that?

I propose that your FA venom should be more heavily armed than your transport version, as it is a full choice. How about...

Asp - 55 points
Armor: F: 10 S: 10 B: 10 Ballistic Skill: 3
Armed with a shrieker cannon and TL shuriken cats. Can upgrade shrieker cannon to a shuriken cannon at +5 points, or a bright lance at +15 points, or an EML at +20.
Can have a holofield for +20 points
Transport: The Asp can transport a single Independent character

Somehow the idea of a skimmer flying by and a harlequin jumping it for a quick ride seems sweet to me.

Um... yay DJs are heavy support... that makes so much more sense.

The idea of a looted vehicle seems odd to a 3rd editioner like me, who thinks of us Eldar as total elitists, but what if...
I think you should only be able to take other races skimmer type vehicles. The looted vehicles need to be able to keep up with the normal vehicles, after all. Plus, you dont want ever freaking harlie player from here to london using a land raider with a holofield, now do we?

*rests hands* Thats all, I think.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rilmanqualë on July 6, 2003, 09:13:06 PM
Good points Pyro, mebbe you SHOULD play Harlies!

I agree that the flight belts seems a bit odd, especially as it sounds almost just like Swooping Hawks (especially with the grenade packs).  If yer gonna allow aspect warriors to join, keep it to one type of squad to keep the confusion down.  And I agree that making the allies a 0-1 or 0-2 is a good idea.  Rasmus, I appreciate your replies to my question, and I do agree that fluffwise it sounds fine.  Very creative and well thought out.  However, I can just imagine what people would do with a list like this.  Basically yer allowing us to take any of the elitist squads we want from three army lists and field them all together!  Think of the abuse that would recieve.  And people complain about Demon Hunters being an uber-army...  You've got to limit it somehow.  Mebbe you did and I've just forgotten, in which case whoops sorry!

Pyro, in regards to what you sed about aspect warriors joining the Masque, it does sound odd, but its not unheard of.  In the CJ #44 revision of the rules it states sumthin about DJ's "who were once Exarchs of that [swooping hawks] shrine" carrying Hawk's talons.  So maybe they see joining the Masque as the dramatic fulfillment of the Path of the Warrior, joining the elitest warband dedicated to fighting their ultimate enemy.

Its still funny though, "running off to join the circus..."  hee hee

Rilmanquale
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 6, 2003, 11:09:28 PM
Also, Fire Dragon Exarchs would take their Firepikes and become DJs.

Pyro--I have a couple things

Regarding Familiars with Bio-Ammo, that is just unfair.  two plus to wound and hit along with easily 4 templates is just obscene.  This, for only 65 points, with an addition psychic power, and the other benefits makes it just unfair.

Regarding the Venom: There is no reason to upgrade it.  In fact, now that I think about it, I think it should be removed as a choice for non-transport all together.  It seems more realistic that they are taken as transports.  To balance this, you could make it that Venoms taken to transport troupes can transport any troupe choice you have.

Re: 5++ save in CC
This is not good enough.  I've played GK with these rules you get slaughtered anyway 5++ will just make it more so.

Warlock squads are like Wyches, do you think that Wyches should be dumped from the DE army?  It is an identical principle.

Mimes are not supposed to be able to hold their own in CC!  They are meant to be infiltrators who go back and tie up enemy heavy weapons so you can advance in peace.  They are not meant to kill and survive!

The Laughing God Mask does not need to be changed, 6" is when people will summon daemons so they can do something.  No sane chaos player (who does not play Tzeentch, and that is the least powerful god) will try and summon Daemons 12" away!

Looted Vehicles may not be given Holofields, so that is a moot point.  Also, it is better to take 9 DJs than 1 Land Raider and 6.

Rasmus, I played another game against Armored Company.  I discovered that when vehicles blow up, Harlequins die!! I lost more of my army to 6s than anything else.  Are we allowed to take cover saves on this??
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Pyro on July 6, 2003, 11:39:17 PM
Blargh! I wasn't thinking about the template destruction it might cause, yeah definitely scrap that, heh.

About the venom to asp upgrade. I thought since he had the venom there I might as well offer a suggestion. The vehicle I created was unique with the one model transport capacity, and I kind of liked it so I included it. If the choice was removed all together from the FA section, and put only as a transport, I wouldn't complain. I just didn't know why he had a venom as an FA choice, so I did a little altering.

The 5++ save in CC: Could you please explain how this happened. I know people that beat the crap out of everybody with no-save harlequins, so explanation on why a 5++ save would be so bad. I mean, I quite enjoy the 5++ on my terminators.

Warlock squads give a bad feel compared to the rest of the list to me. If I saw some fluff on warlock squads, I might like em more, but right now they are very out of place to me. They are only slightly more expensive than normal troops, and are elites. Elites is already a bulging category in this new list, and could use trimming, so people wouldn't pack the elites section like they do with vanilla Eldar (because they want to use as many of those various choices as possible). And while the UNITS of warlocks and wyches may seem similar. Because DE and harlequins are different lists, the usage of each type differentiates them. Warlocks are shown to be all different in the way they are described, but in stats, and tactics for them, they are really just slightly better harlequins. If the writer of this list REALLY likes em, they might be good as a HQ bodyguard unit, instead of elites.

I stand by my mimes comment. Mimes die as fast as grots, and last time I checked, eldar are a freaking dying race, and harlequins are even rarer.

The laughing god change was just me wondering, its nothing special or revolutionary, so whatever.

Quoting from the list that is linked...
"Options: The looted vehicle may be given any weapons options permitted from the parent army list, but not wargear. The vehicle may be fitted with a holo-field at +25 points. This distorts its shape and prevents the enemy from targeting its most vulnerable locations. Whenever your opponent rolls on the damage table for the vehicle, they must roll two dice and apply the lowest result."
yes, a LR can get a holofield.
 
 
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 7, 2003, 03:41:49 AM
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The weapon additions on the jetbike are nice, but your new flipbelt rules present a problem with a lack of saves for models with jetbikes in cc. I'll deal with it when we come to the jetbike squad.
The jetbikes still retain a 3+ save in cc. I fail to see the problem in this. Have I missed something?

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The stormgolve is the replacement for riveblades I guess? I like the name riveblades better personally. :P
Stormglove is the older name. It therefore took back its place.

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The main issue with your wargear I have is the flight belt. The flight belt is too much of a compromise between the phase field and the jetbike. Why take a phase field when you have more assured (and further) movement with the flight belt. I think that the flight belt should be dropped (again). It seems that the flightbelt was added just to add another FA choice to the harlies, which I will deal with later. The phase field is much more 'unique' than the flightbelt, so it should stay.
Here, again, the Flight belt is older, and if something should go, it would be the Phase field. The flightbelt gets the mobility restored in another part of the list which is missing.

Quote
You should not be able to 'move' the webway exit each turn, thats silly, you are already giving them something that can be arguably better than a waygate anyways.

In the last laugh, does the model attack back with just a normal attack, or does it use its special attacks if available? (does a power weapon model who dies strike with a power weapon attack?) If thats the case, you may want to make it say 10 points more, Im not sure...

The laughing god masque should keep deamons summoning to 12 inches, so its actually useful, but might need to cost more (its impossible to judge masque costs without testing)

The IoY spell needs a range, me thinks, to stop possible abuses of it.
I will look over all of this. Thank you for pointing this out. Maybe the wording is unclear. I will look into it.

Quote
The warlock group seems... odd and out of place. Just another group of followers in the army. The powers are too simple, and the rest of the squad too much like other harlequins, dump them.
It is the restoration of the Warlocks, which were in the old list, and as another HQ choice is not something the list needs.
If you find the powers too... pale, what would you suggest?

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Eldar allies should be at 0-1
I have considered this as well

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Mimes... I am not fond with the mimes you have put up.
It is not my idea. It is GWs idea. It was in their older list, released to the web in 1998 I think. I have seen its place filled well, and not seen any reason to change them.

Quote
Plus, you dont want ever freaking harlie player from here to london using a land raider with a holofield, now do we?
Why not? It would look sweet! Actually, the first looted vehicle illustrated by GW in the first RT-list was - you guessed it - a landraider!
I have a Leman Russ. It is very very colourful. It is in the Harlequin-section of EO, if you want to look at it.

Thank you for your feedback, and I will look at the stuff you mentioned, to see if anything can be altered, made better.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 7, 2003, 10:22:03 AM
Yes, having a holo-field Land Raider is not really a boon anyway.  It is so expensive like the rest of the Harlequins you will VERY rarely have room.  I myself have a looted holo-field Ravager with 3 Disintegrators.  I'll gladly trade my DJs for that :)

But the thing is not only do you enjoy the 5++ on your Terminators, but you enjoy the 2+.  The Harlequins have no such regular save and therefore need a good deterent.

Mimes do not die as fast as grots.  They die as fast as old Harlequins did.  The ability to Infiltrate will hopefully allow you sneak up on them.  Therefore, in CC, you will preform the same.  They are actually a great deal for their price.

Venom as FA allows you to tranport your Striking Scorpions/Banshees from other lists.  However, I agree and maybe only the Mockingbird belongs in that place.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Pyro on July 7, 2003, 08:37:16 PM
All quotes below from Rasmus.
Quote
The jetbikes still retain a 3+ save in cc. I fail to see the problem in this. Have I missed something?
I suppose that will do... I think it all works out, not missing anything else...
Quote
Stormglove is the older name. It therefore took back its place.
err... Im going to lecture you in a couple seconds on how this is a bad excuse, but it really doesnt matter herer, pick whatever name you like...
Quote
Here, again, the Flight belt is older, and if something should go, it would be the Phase field. The flightbelt gets the mobility restored in another part of the list which is missing.
um... again on the "older is better bit", Im waiting till the end to give you my take on this. Whats wrong with having a FA squad with Phase fields instead? Call em Sifters or something. Its more unique than just another jetpack squad, which almost every race in the game has.
Quote
It is the restoration of the Warlocks, which were in the old list, and as another HQ choice is not something the list needs.
If you find the powers too... pale, what would you suggest?
AGAIN on the old bit, but actually, since both of you seem fond of them, I have an idea for them... Since you shot the shadow-seer escort bit (I didn't like it much either, he'd have both familiars and guys with him...). Make it an elites choice... but make them like... eldar warlocks maybe? You can give them to squads, and they have basic misdirection powers that help squads win assaults and help make guys run and the like. Im thinking on exact details for powers.
Quote
[regarding mimes...]
It is not my idea. It is GWs idea. It was in their older list, released to the web in 1998 I think. I have seen its place filled well, and not seen any reason to change them.

again with the old bit... dont worry, Im building steam... :P

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Why not? It would look sweet! Actually, the first looted vehicle illustrated by GW in the first RT-list was - you guessed it - a landraider!
I have a Leman Russ. It is very very colourful. It is in the Harlequin-section of EO, if you want to look at it.
Im just saying people are gonna scream cheese. Plus I kind of like the idea of having only skimmers. Keeps the swift feel of the list.
Alright...
Bringing things back to the 'way things used to be' is not only bad excuse for making rules that way, but it even hurts you more. Things are changed for reasons. most of the time, these reasons are quite good. When writing a new codex (whether or not you want to try and make this thing widely used), you should consider the feel of the list. Don't be afraid to not follow the fluff. The fluff is so unlike the game in 3rd edition, it doesn't matter if your list isn't to the word, it is important that the army is interesting, unique and unified. 40k the game and 40k the story are practically different things. So when you do stuff for the list, fluff or history is NOT what you should consider, but instead the list as a whole and the feel it gives. I was giving reasons on why they dont seem to fit with the list, and would like counter reasoning in the same way if you wish to keep things the way they are. Just remember...

10 marines w/ bolters
20 shots, 13 hits, 8 wounds, 8 rare, even rarer than eldar, noting that eldar are already rare and dying, supposed very skilled 'best fighters' in the universe dead in like a second.

thats wrong... plus I could mass those suckers hardcore and end up like outnumbering swarm armies... with harlequins.
Quote
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: TheMightyPikachu on July 8, 2003, 01:34:48 AM
8 wounds can be saved still

seems like you got a different idea of what Rasmus see's as Harlequin. it just happens, i have a different idea as to what GW considers guardians.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 8, 2003, 03:33:07 AM
For Pyro:

I think you might have misunderstood the intentions of my revision.
The thought is not to make a competative list, something to out-cheese the Necrons or Space wolves, neither is it my place, I feel, to set precendents in gameterms, or alter what really isn't broken in the first place.
What I am attempting to do is to reitroduce things that have been lost, unrightfully so, I feel, into the game. I understand that some (like yourself) find yourself in opposition with this concept for various reasons but then again; you are not the one making the revision. If your view so totally clash with mine I offer you this opportunity to make something yourself, and then the two of us can create a sythesis of the two. My list contains that which was from the beginning, and nothing new which has not been seen before (RT, 2nd ed, Web-release, CJs and Troll included) and I have tried to make the list faithful to those concepts, and at the same time make it work out well in 3rd ed.
Your comments, however enlightened, offer very little in ways of improvement, as you offer no suggestions on how to adress all these greivances of yours, at least not something that is beyond wording, that does not involve majorly shifting the list in an alternate direction at this stage.

Thank you for your comments.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 8, 2003, 09:33:31 AM
Rasmus is quite correct this is meant to be a historical compilation, not a BA/SW/Speed Freaks competitive list.

I played another game, 1600 points, against Imperial Fists.  I discovered that I was able to crush them without remembering to use the Domino Field, Veil of Tears, or Masque of the Red Death.  I think this means that the army is too strong.  In addition, 200 points of my army did nothing.  On the other hand, it took me forever to kill the two HQ.  I think that this says that Invulnerable saves are incredibly good against the Harlies, and anything that doesn't have them gets ripped up.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 8, 2003, 11:00:08 AM
What performed better than you thought it would then?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 8, 2003, 11:17:03 AM
That is the whole point.  Nothing preformed better than it should have, some just did worse.  If I can crush the enemy like this, then something is wrong.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 8, 2003, 11:34:37 AM
You mistunderstood my questions; in your estimate; which units performed better than you would have thought they would have? Did the Troupers kill too much? The jetbikes last too long, the characters never taking a hit? What?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 8, 2003, 11:50:53 AM
I found that the Jetbikes do not stand up very well in CC without the 4++.  The small squads just get cut in half by a single powerfist or the like.

The Troupers killed too much with shooting.  Thats what I feel.  They were able to wipe  out entire squads of full marines with pistols and Bio-Ammo.  I don't feel this should happen.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 8, 2003, 12:09:42 PM
You can only get a single model with bio-ammo in every squad, or have I goofed the wording?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 8, 2003, 12:53:26 PM
Exactly.  My point is that these things are not supposed to perform so well.  I think that on Bio-Ammo we might want to make it 3+ or 4+ always for wounding, as 2+ is too good.  I mean 4 models with Bio Ammo=too many templates with 2+
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 8, 2003, 01:44:50 PM
How do you make four models in a unit have the bio-ammo?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 8, 2003, 01:55:05 PM
They weren't in one unit, I see how that could have been misleading. :-[  I had both HQ and two Troupe Leaders.  If I use red  death, with rapid firing pistols (essentially) I can easily overpower them with a combination that is hard to stop.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 8, 2003, 01:59:20 PM
Such combinations would cost a lot of points though, and it could all be wiped out by two 6 pts flamers.

What do you suggest be done to fix this imbalance?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 8, 2003, 04:12:11 PM
The problem is Veil/Venoms can stop those Flamers... :-\

I really thing therefore that the 2+ to wound modifier put on the Bio-Ammo should be toned down to 4+ with rules like on the Dreadaxe (it can go lower but not higher via strength.)
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Pyro on July 8, 2003, 09:16:06 PM
Alright once more for good measure...

You said I haven't made suggestions for improvement. I have, for everything I criticize I make a suggestion, its something my mother has driven into me. Maybe they are not carrying across well... I have added you to my AIM list, where hopefully talking will improve communication. I have also considered typing up my suggestions ala a list revision I can send to you. Basically revising your revising list and giving it to you as sort of a suggestion type thing. The problem with the latter is when I copy stat lines into word, things really get screwy, so it might take awhile. Hopefully I can get you on AIM.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: TheMightyPikachu on July 9, 2003, 02:43:07 AM
on the bio ammo, i imagine it wouldn't be as effective as say, marines being hit by a plasma cannon
the bio ammo hits on bs3 most the time right? (or bs4)
wounding on a 2+

BUT the marine needs to fail an armor save

after that, blast template explosion

while a plasma cannon just starts off with a 2+ wounding ignoring armor blast
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 9, 2003, 04:30:24 AM
As I have not used the bioammo to a great extent I have not experienced what you have, and against Marines I must side with TMP in saying that it sounds really odd.

On another note; The Master Mime. Has anyone except me tried him yet? What do you think?
I have a few ideas of making an alternative list, which allows only Mimes as Troupes, no Venoms, Master Mime as HQ, and only Solitaire as Elite, DJ as Heavy and no fasts. A Mime-group. What do you think?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 9, 2003, 10:06:52 AM
A Mime group would be good like Wyches...I haven't used Him though.

Regarding the Bio-Ammo, what I am not succeeding in making clear is  that Bio-Ammo did  too much even when he failed one armor save.  It killed 6 times its point cost.  Therefore, I believe that it should have a reduced chance of that.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Luckyshot13 on July 9, 2003, 10:11:25 AM
I like the idea of a mime list but it does seem to be a bit soon. I mean an alternative list for an unofficial, work in progress list. ???

Speaking of a work in progress list I haven't contributed any ideas yet so here goes.
How about dropping the points cost for the Mockingbird to 100 and giving it the option of upgrading its shurieken catapults to a shurieken cannon for +20 points. I realise that the Mockingbird was constructed using the VDR but in those rules it says that the points cost would be higher because a vehicle you create would have greater effectiveness as you were the one who designed it. The points drop is minimal and is much more rounded than the strange 106 points you pay for it now.

Another idea I had was to change the Flight-Belt Troupe from an Assault Squad style unit to a Warp Spider style unit. Although nothing in the list is entirely new and I'm sure that when the Harlequins were first released they had a Flight Belt-Troupe I would still prefer there fluff to be based on warp jumps rather that flight.
I should probably be more specific and give you an idea of what my idea of the rules would mean.

Ok, well keep the stats the same but take away the flip belts and give them a warp spider jump generator (the flipbelts interfere with the jump pack). Then instead of taking a casulty on a double it shoud be a double 1 or 6. You could give them as a unit "The Masque of the Red Death" without the need to be within 12" of the a Great Harlequin, without the need for the entire army to have the Masque and in addition to any other masque the army has (effectively giving them the withdraw ability). I would keep the weapons options the same but remove the option to deep strike. As for points cost I would keep that the same as well, the Jump Generator is better than a jump pack but as you lose the ability to deep strike and if your unlucky you may take a casualty I think it evens itself out. Personally I think making the Fight-Belt Troupe more like Warp Spiders has much more character. Even though there will be more rules, the fact is that a Harlequin army is much smaller than a standard one so I don't think it matters that much. Anyway people who choose Harlequins seem to be able to cope with loads of complex rules.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 9, 2003, 11:20:13 AM
I like the idea of a mime list but it does seem to be a bit soon. I mean an alternative list for an unofficial, work in progress list. ???

Speaking of a work in progress list I haven't contributed any ideas yet so here goes.
How about dropping the points cost for the Mockingbird to 100 and giving it the option of upgrading its shurieken catapults to a shurieken cannon for +20 points. I realise that the Mockingbird was constructed using the VDR but in those rules it says that the points cost would be higher because a vehicle you create would have greater effectiveness as you were the one who designed it. The points drop is minimal and is much more rounded than the strange 106 points you pay for it now.

Another idea I had was to change the Flight-Belt Troupe from an Assault Squad style unit to a Warp Spider style unit. Although nothing in the list is entirely new and I'm sure that when the Harlequins were first released they had a Flight Belt-Troupe I would still prefer there fluff to be based on warp jumps rather that flight.
I should probably be more specific and give you an idea of what my idea of the rules would mean.

Ok, well keep the stats the same but take away the flip belts and give them a warp spider jump generator (the flipbelts interfere with the jump pack). Then instead of taking a casulty on a double it shoud be a double 1 or 6. You could give them as a unit "The Masque of the Red Death" without the need to be within 12" of the a Great Harlequin, without the need for the entire army to have the Masque and in addition to any other masque the army has (effectively giving them the withdraw ability). I would keep the weapons options the same but remove the option to deep strike. As for points cost I would keep that the same as well, the Jump Generator is better than a jump pack but as you lose the ability to deep strike and if your unlucky you may take a casualty I think it evens itself out. Personally I think making the Fight-Belt Troupe more like Warp Spiders has much more character. Even though there will be more rules, the fact is that a Harlequin army is much smaller than a standard one so I don't think it matters that much. Anyway people who choose Harlequins seem to be able to cope with loads of complex rules.

Great ideas!  Question: Do you mean Shuriken or Shrieker Cannon Upgarde?  I assume you mean Shuriken.  However, wouldn't this be useless as Vibrocannons cannot be fired with anything else (they can't move so this is obvious)?

It would be cool to have a  masque apply to only one squad, however, as has been said before, this thing is a historical compilation of updated rules, not a newlist.

106 is strange because of the way VDRs.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Luckyshot13 on July 9, 2003, 11:46:56 AM
Question: Do you mean Shuriken or Shrieker Cannon Upgrade?  I assume you mean Shuriken.  However, wouldn't this be useless as Vibrocannons cannot be fired with anything else (they can't move so this is obvious)?
:-[ Yeah I ment Shuriken but no it wouldn't be useless. If you moved between 0 and 6" then you can fire 2 weapons it doesn't matter if there heavy or not. In terms of usefulness though it's as useful as a shuriken cannon on a Vyper (it would be nice to have the option though). Having two weapons does bring up a question though as the Vibro cannon doesn't target a unit what unit will the shuriken cannon target (or shuriken catapults for that matter)?

Quote
It would be cool to have a  masque apply to only one squad, however, as has been said before, this thing is a historical compilation of updated rules, not a newlist.
Yes but the Mockingbird was added. Anyway it isn't a new unit it's just new rules for an existing unit (an update :)). I understand it's a slight change in the fluff but overall I think it would fit in well and would suit the overall Harlequin fluff better in my opinion.

Quote
106 is strange because of the way VDRs.
Yes (again), but the reason for that is you choose the design. You or I didn't choose the mockingbirds design and it's such a minimal change that for simplicity I think making it 100 points would be the right thing to do.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 9, 2003, 11:49:41 AM
Why not 110?  Or 105?  Both of those are closer and fairly round numbers.

And you cannot move and fire the Vibrocannon if you want to stay with the fluff.  This is the way it works with the rest of the Heavy Support weapons and I think it should stay this way.

The mockingbird was added to fill in a discrepancy due to a lack of vehicles.  This was put in to add depth to the list, not make it more realistic.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 9, 2003, 11:54:03 AM
The Mockingbird was added because Wes had the idea of a stereo-system that kills, made the model, and made the rules work. It is pretty much like the Harlequin Spiritwalker; some people will not want to use it.
And it CAN move and fire.

Point-cost will be checked, and I will go through the VDR for the option, and see how I can fit it in.
I will also check the wording on disruption, as was pointed out by someone on one of the mailinglists where this has been posted as well.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 9, 2003, 11:58:28 AM
I don't think it should move and fire but if thats  what you want then very well.

I ran it through the VDRs its 106 without the upgrade and 120 with it, so do with that what you will...
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Luckyshot13 on July 9, 2003, 12:04:01 PM
105 points would be the best idea.
The argument that because the mockingbird was included so should loads of ideas for new units should be included was not really my argument (I understand why the mockingbird was included). More importantly I was arguing that changing jump packs to jump generators isn't a new unit but instead an update. It's an attempt to make the Flight Troupe rules more interesting and fit in with the character of the army more (making them more unique).
I hope that cleared things up.
EDIT: By the way the Mockingbird is a vehicle not a weapons platform that's why both in fluff and rules it should be able to fire on the move.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 9, 2003, 12:06:16 PM
Thank you for the clarification.

I agree we really should make it 105 +15 points for the upgrade.  That will make it easier to handle.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Luckyshot13 on July 9, 2003, 12:14:50 PM
Yeah that's probably the best idea.

Quote
Having two weapons does bring up a question though as the Vibro cannon doesn't target a unit what unit will the shuriken cannon target (or shuriken catapults for that matter)?
Do you know the answer? I certainly don't. ???
How about changing the Flight Troupe rules?
Is it really that big of change and more importantly would it be enjoyable to play?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 9, 2003, 12:14:59 PM
The looted vehicles:
Does +10 for the Vyper and +20 for the others seem fair to avoid breakdown for Eldar-made vehicles?

About the flight belts: try it out a few times, tell us how it works out.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 9, 2003, 12:20:09 PM
Yes that seems fair.  However, the vehicles should have that on a double 1 no matter what you cannot move.  This represents the fact taht Harlequins rarely take mechanics into their fold.  I'm going to play a game today I might try out the flight belt rules.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Luckyshot13 on July 9, 2003, 12:28:25 PM
Thanks InfinityCircuit do try them out. :)
I'm afraid my army really isn't in a state to be seriously play testing. The avoiding breakdown rules do seem fair. I guess the harlequins don't kill the occupants of the Eldar vehicles, they just get old ones from the Eldar and sometimes do them up with the help of the Eldar (thus avoiding the chance of it breaking down).
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: TheMightyPikachu on July 9, 2003, 12:40:32 PM
Yes that seems fair.  However, the vehicles should have that on a double 1 no matter what you cannot move.  This represents the fact taht Harlequins rarely take mechanics into their fold.  I'm going to play a game today I might try out the flight belt rules.

it seems kinda ridiculous though, there's always the possibility of one of their troupe being savvy with the tech of their former allegiances.

or it's piloted by a native of whatever group it came from, as an ally

perhaps it should take up a masque slot? Something like being especially connected to one group of CWE or DE
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 9, 2003, 12:42:10 PM
Devotee of Chaos might not let me, he is afraid of me beating him for the 13th time in a row.

I think your right TMP nm that was a bad idea.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Luckyshot13 on July 9, 2003, 12:44:26 PM
I think your right TMP nm that was a bad idea.
What's the TMP nm idea?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 9, 2003, 01:58:45 PM
The Mighty Pikachu discounted my idea about the double 1 and I agreed.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Luckyshot13 on July 9, 2003, 02:57:18 PM
Ok. Hmm TMP, sounds like its illegal or something.
Well done on beating Chaos 12 times in a row. How did you manage that? Don't answer that, better keep it on topic.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 9, 2003, 03:47:28 PM
Quote
perhaps it should take up a masque slot? Something like being especially connected to one group of CWE or DE
Perhaps no point-increase, but it takes up a heavy and an Elite, to avoid breakdown, just as Tank-ace takes up an elite and a whatever, just because the crew is really good?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: TheMightyPikachu on July 9, 2003, 04:23:10 PM
that makes sense, and to represent such a rare gift from their kin
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 9, 2003, 07:10:32 PM
That would be a great idea.  Maybe you could use up the Eldar allies spot if you have a limit to represent this.  That would prevent taking 6 Banshees+a Falcon, a killer combo in this army.

And Luckyshot13, I don't want to brag or anything but in proxy games I've gone like 30-1, 12-0 is for non-proxy...  The key is psyching the opponent out...
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 10, 2003, 05:46:52 AM
I will implement this and some other small changes.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: DMan on July 10, 2003, 10:06:52 AM
Rasmus, excellent work!

I'm still reviewing the codex, but I have a couple ideas:

Problem 1: The Harlies only option for dealing with anything with an AV in hth is haywire grenades. IIRC, the Kiss used to be able to penetrate AV: +d6 for each successive 6 rolled.
Suggestion 1: Give the Stormglove the same rules as Rending Claws (or Demonic Talons). The description could be changed to something like:
Fitted to the back of the hand are shimmering blades, covered by an energy field which can punch through the thickest armour. In the hands of a Harlequin a Stormglove can be used to behead or disembowel the target with a single sweep, or make large rents in the armor of enemy vehicles. A Stormglove is used in assault. Models hit by a Harlequin with a to-hit roll of 6 are automatically wounded and may not take a saving throw. Against models with an armor value, an armor penetration roll of 6 allows a second die to be rolled and the result added to the armor penetration. A Stormglove can not be combined with powerblades.

Problem 2: Dying in droves after the initial assault. Currently you have addressed this by giving the a 4++ save in hth.
Suggestion 2: Remove the 4++ save and give all Harlies the following ability (as part of the flip belt rules):
Finally, as a sign of a Harlequin's true grace and speed, enhanced by this device, the Harlequins are able to engage the opponents of their choice and use the numbers of the enemy against them. During pile-in moves, the Harlequins always pile-in last and are able to reposition themselves, even if currently in base to base contact with enemy models. Harlequin models in hth may make a 6" move after their opponent piles in. They must end this move in base to base contact with an enemy model in the same melee, but do not have to stay engaged with the same unit, if more than one enemy unit is in the melee.
This ability would allow the Harlie player to reposition their models to limit the number of enemy models in base to base, reduce the number of enemy attacks,  select which models to focus their attacks on and potentially remove entire enemy squads from the melee.

Question 1: If the Harlies charge using Tanglefoot grenades and the combat is drawn, does the enemy player get to move the models in the affected unit during his movement or assault phase? If they get to move, then the Tanglefoot grenades are basically useless...

Question 2: Bio-explosive ammo: Who places the template? Must it be centred over a model in the target squad?
My opponents insist that they get to chose the model that is killed, and that the template is placed over that model. This almost always means that only 1 other model is caught in the blast, usually just on the edge, requiring a 4+ to hit. My prefered way of resolving the bioexplosive ammo results is: the other player selects and removes the casualty, then the Harlie player places the blast marker, finally the other player can reposition the blast using the same restrictions as other blast templates.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 10, 2003, 10:14:12 AM
Looks like some well thought out advice!  Thank you!

Problem 1:
We don't really need that many ways to deal with AV in Close Combat.  Plasma, Fusion Pistols, Fusion Guns, and Bright Lances can kill enough.  I really don't think that a Harlequin's Kiss can harm a vehicle in the first place though...

Problem 2:
I really like this idea.  This might be better!  I'll try it out...

Question 1:
IMHO the Tanglefoot Grenades are meant to be there just to make it easy for you to charge that squad of Grots, Have them run away, and easily wipe them out by continuing to get the +1 attack.   If you want the enemy to fall back then don't take Tanglefoots!  And yes they can move if they pass their morale check in the Assault phase.

Question 2:
You place it and no, where I play, it does not have to be centered.  You can get as many models as you want.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: DMan on July 10, 2003, 11:16:59 AM
Looks like some well thought out advice!  Thank you!
No prob. I'll do some more thinking.  ;)

Quote
I really don't think that a Harlequin's Kiss can harm a vehicle in the first place though...
 I'll dust off my RT & Compendium tonight and see if I can find the Kiss rules I vaguely remember...

Quote
And yes they can move if they pass their morale check in the Assault phase.
I don't follow. Which morale check and which Assault phase?

iirc, Tanglefoot works like this:
In the Harlie's assault phase: after resolving hth attacks & morale checks (assume the morale check passed), the enemy models do not make pile-in moves. This will leave some of the enemy out of b2b contact with the Harlies (and possibly out of coherancy, if using the trial assault rules) greatly reducing the number of enemy models that can attack in the Enemy Assault phase.
During the Enemy movement phase, the engaged enemy squad can not move, as they are engaged in hth. In the Assault phase, can the enemy models not in b2b move into b2b? I just thought about this a bit more, and the answer should be "no".  
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 10, 2003, 11:38:36 AM
My point was about that if people fall back with Tanglefoot Grenades, then they go back 1d6, which is waht I thought you were talking about.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: DMan on July 10, 2003, 11:45:16 AM
Ok, we both understand the Fallback impact of Tanglefoot grenades. (Which is very usefull!)

(assuming Tanglefoot grenades were used in the Harlie turn) Is my description of Pile-in moves, and movement in the Enemy turn correct?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 10, 2003, 12:42:16 PM
To my knoweledge, it is the one I always use.  The problem with Tanglefoots though is that it sort of nullifies your other idea for getting rid of the 4++ in CC
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: DMan on July 10, 2003, 03:25:52 PM
Sorta, the Tanglefoot grenades (TGs) become slightly less usefull, but not completely useless.

The TGs still provide the flee/pursue bonuses, and do not allow the opponent to make pile-in moves.

The change I proposed is not as good as the TGs on the turn the Harlies charge, but it helps in the subsequent assault phases; making it near impossible to really gang up on the Harlies.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 10, 2003, 03:40:00 PM
Problem 1: I really have had little problem dealing with this, even though I do understand your concern. The Harlequins are not meant to try to tackle the IG Armoured Company...

Problem 2: The idea is nice, but it is a) a tad more complicated than the 4++ save, b)does not adress the problem other than in this situation. it does not help when they are assaulted, for instance. I think the 4++, if nothing else than for the simplicity of the thing, stays.

Question 1: Tanglefoot only affects models fleeing or purusing, nothing else, at least nothing I have seen.

Question 2: It should be centered on a dead model, trying to cover as many targets as possible. I will deal with this.

And the kiss - I remember when the thing lashes around the inside of the tank, slicing people up... Ahh, those were the days.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 10, 2003, 04:10:21 PM
The Tanglefoots on a Troupe Leader combined with the 4++ do provide a more simple and easy to understand way survive subsequent close combats.

I have had perfectly good success against Armored Company by taking Haywire Grenades on my "Big 3" (Shadowseer, Great harlequin, Solitaire)  Also, I do take Pistols which can help a great deal against back/side armor in most cases.

And now that I think about it, for Tanglefoots I believe they can move in at the END of assault phase, feel free to prove me wrong but this is how I envision it.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: DMan on July 10, 2003, 08:30:19 PM
attn Moderator: I've included some specific rules information in this post. Please edit the post and/or PM me if this use is inappropriate.
~~~~~~~~~~

Closure (maybe  ;) )on some of the things I brought up:

- Harlie Kiss penetrating vehicles:Rasmus was correct in his obtuse reference... See 2nd Ed Wargear book p.8.  
Basically, its AP was 0+d6, plus re-roll 6's, then see how many of the crew were turned into goo.

Tanglefoot grenades:
Question 1: Tanglefoot only affects models fleeing or purusing, nothing else, at least nothing I have seen
From CJ 39, p.12. In the description of Tanglefoot Grenades:
"...their effects last for the duration of that first round of combat. ... In the event of a drawn combat ... the unit fighting the Harlequins may not move any unengaged models into the combat... "
I think this is a rather significant effect of the Tanglefoot grenades, but I am gathering that it is not really well understood by Harlie players.  :o

InfinityCircuit, which assault phase are you refering to? The Harlie assault phase is addressed in the quote, above, no enemy movement allowed. I reviewed movement in the enemy's turn in my post at 10:16:59am (7 posts down) and I believe they can not move until AFTER the causualities and morale checks have been determined in the enemy's assault phase.

Problem 1: Tanks I'm not really worried about. I had a couple of really bad experiences with Dreadnaughts and skimmers.   >:(

4++ saves:
Yes, 4++ is simpler, but I view it as a bit too forgiving, making them nearly as durable as Marines...  More play testing will tell.

<blargh!!! It's taken me something like 10 edits to get this post right!!  :P >
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 10, 2003, 08:33:05 PM
The problem is that they are not as durable as Marines due to the T.  T is so key as with 3 that means that Plasma Cannons can Instant Kill them, along with lots of other weapons.

The CJ quote is fine as you stated the page number.  So is the 2nd Edition as you did the page, I believe.

WOW the Harlequin's Kiss was REALLY random back then!
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: DMan on July 10, 2003, 08:44:48 PM
I did say nearly ...  ;)

hmmm, the plasma cannon statement is a bit off.  We are talking about hth combat.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Von Lazuli on July 10, 2003, 09:09:25 PM
Still that is an extra 1 in 6 chance to wound, with any large number of attacks that is a huge thing. Plus, T3 means being instakilled by big bugs (as my Solitare found, much to his chagrin  >:() Still the trick with Harlequins is to do so much damage first that the enemy can't do much back.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 10, 2003, 09:10:45 PM
If the enemy can fight back then they can DEFINETLY murder you without the 4++ as they must be strong.  Without it you are too weak to late game fights when both have been exhausted.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: TheMightyPikachu on July 10, 2003, 09:49:02 PM
i thought of something, maybe for big bugs

as a solitaire ability
"turnaside blow- even when hit by the most powerful of blows, the solitaire weaves enough to turn a fatal blow to a glancing wound"

cannot be insta-killed in hth.

doesn't need to be put it i think, but if that's really a big problem, that could help
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 10, 2003, 10:03:47 PM
Thats a good idea.  The thing is that getting instant-killed is not as much of a problem as getting swamped by high S weapons.  One thing that would help is to increase his save to 3+ against S6+ to represent the fact that such powerful blows are usually slow and easier to block.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Von Lazuli on July 10, 2003, 11:18:35 PM
No Infinity and TMP now you are making Harlequins overpowered. One of our main weaknesses is jigh strength weaponry, dont try to change that through fidling with the rules
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: TheMightyPikachu on July 11, 2003, 12:42:07 AM
No Infinity and TMP now you are making Harlequins overpowered. One of our main weaknesses is jigh strength weaponry, dont try to change that through fidling with the rules

for a solitaire though? i said only that one guy

4++ sv's in hth should be enough though
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Von Lazuli on July 11, 2003, 02:08:10 AM
Yes TMP, a 4++ save is enough. Oh found out that Tau Firewarriors are very very deadly in the shooting phase versus Harlequins. Wounding on 2+ hurts, lots.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: TheMightyPikachu on July 11, 2003, 02:11:39 AM
Yes TMP, a 4++ save is enough. Oh found out that Tau Firewarriors are very very deadly in the shooting phase versus Harlequins. Wounding on 2+ hurts, lots.

they're deadly vs anything in the shooting phase, harlequins survive better than most (if you don't call marines most)

but there is absolutely NOTHING that tau have to stop harlequins in hth

you don't even need holofields, ws2 is sad enough
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 11, 2003, 04:17:47 AM
Quote
I think this is a rather significant effect of the Tanglefoot grenades, but I am gathering that it is not really well understood by Harlie players.  
Possibly because drawn combats are so rare in 40k, and especially with the Harlequins... Either you have won, and won big, or you have lost, and lost in a huge way. :)
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 11, 2003, 09:04:23 AM
The Tau do have a way to stop the Harlequins, and it is one of the worst.  They are the Kroot.  They can easily overwhelm you with attacks that get through your save.
To deal with them in this army is when you really need the Red Death, as here you DO need the +1...

And no, I'm not trying to make Harlequins overpowered, I'm just attempting to make the Solitaire less weak to S6 instant kill weapons.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: TheMightyPikachu on July 11, 2003, 01:00:53 PM
kroot will still be hitting on 5+'s though

t3 and a 6+ sv means alot will die when charged, specially with kiss's
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 11, 2003, 01:03:43 PM
But S4 will help a lot.  Also, if your playing Kroot Mercenaries they can have T4 and hidden Eviscerators...  And, you wont have enough attacks to kill them normally, and they will probably have enough survive to take a chunk out of you..
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 11, 2003, 02:39:55 PM
Can this revision deal with this problem; if so - state how.
If you just want to feel a tad sorry because they bite you; start a new thread about it. Please.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 11, 2003, 02:41:56 PM
I said my response a while ago.  I think that you should get a 3+ I against weapons that are double your strength on the Solitaire.  This is to represent the fact that they are normally slower the more powerful they get, so they are easier to dodge.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 11, 2003, 02:48:19 PM
It seems to be nitpicking. Why?
1. It is not happening all that often.
2. With the I the Harlequins have they should be able to clear away most things before the enemy gets a chance to strike
3. It sets a precedent, and doing that is the mot dangerous things we as suggestive rulemakers can do.
4. Finally, a +1 on a save on a single character, one that can never be duplicated in any given army, does very little in the long run.

At least that's how I look at it.
With T3 and bad save, bikes with catapults can cut them down before your troupe finishes them off. Eviscerators or no.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 11, 2003, 02:53:35 PM
But the problem is that Instant Kill is very real and can easily smash you flat.  This does not mean it should be dealt with though.  If you feel that way I will back you because my opinion is very much on the blade of a knife regarding this issue.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 11, 2003, 03:08:26 PM
Instakills instakills everyhting. There is no way around it. For anyone. Why should the Harlequins be different?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Indro Tyr on July 11, 2003, 03:54:25 PM
Actually Rasmus, the Rune of Chaos does... things do get around insta-kills for other armies. Anyway I just thought I'd enlighten you, but I still agree. This discussion has tryed to turn the Harlequins into something really cheap and complicated, which is not a good thing. Every army has a weakness, deal with it. Complaining about Nemesis Force Weapons and Powerfists how they mash your precious Solitaire into mush is not very mature, grow up and accept the fact that high-strength weapons are DESIGNED to insta-kill powerful adversaries and hurt armour. If you people rob them of that advantage you are really making the Harlequins into a cheap army. Infact in my opinion the 5++ listed in Troll #64 was an EXCELLENT change. Now granted it'd be nice to make that a 4++, this is not necessary, but makes more sense. Think of it representing the Holo-Field AND the dodge together. This would make things much simpiler. And invuln-ignoring weapons will work against the Harlequins, it is a loop-hole in the fluff, but still should not be robbed of its advantage. I would say quit the complaining and simplify the rules for everyone's sake, and remember that no matter what army you play you should always have things in your opponent's army that is a thorn in your side or makes you shiver. So quit the b****ing, you are not going to get a free ride in every battle you play.

That was a bit harsh and I apologize, but that is just my opinion on the matter... thank you.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 11, 2003, 03:57:03 PM
Spot on!
Thank you.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 11, 2003, 04:24:18 PM
But, every single Nemesis can instant kill you.  And you are not powerful adversaries when compared to the Grey Knights...

But this is is an irrelevant post as are the previous three as I already said my idea is pointless...
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: fonkin on July 11, 2003, 05:18:44 PM
Re:  Bio-explosive ammunition.  You are getting ripped off!  Blast markers can be repositioned, true, but must cover the same number of models as it did when you originally placed it.  
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 11, 2003, 05:48:40 PM
Quote
But, every single Nemesis can instant kill you.  And you are not powerful adversaries when compared to the Grey Knights...
They will instakill any T3 character (there are few about) but they will need to get to hit (with lower I, that is unlikely) and hit (and hitting 6 is tough) so I doubt it is a big problem unless you charge your Solitaire in like a cruisemissile into five Grey Knights. Then you deserve to get spanked!

The greyknights are 25 pts, the same as the Harlequin troupers. They are supposed to be really really tough. So are the Harlequins. They are an even fight, I have found. Five of each, powerarmour+nemesis on one side, a kiss, a pw on the other, and they more or less beat eachother senseless. The "hitting on 5+" nicely counterbalances the "wounding on 5+ or saving on 3+". It is a slaughter. But the point is that it should be a slaughter. They should be even. They are the same points.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 11, 2003, 05:51:27 PM
fonkin I don't quite understand what you are referring to.

Rasmus, that setup makes the Harlequins 11 points more expensive, but this is irrelevant.  Anyway, I concede my point as there is no way in arguing it (I say for the third time...)
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: TheMightyPikachu on July 12, 2003, 11:43:03 PM
But S4 will help a lot.  Also, if your playing Kroot Mercenaries they can have T4 and hidden Eviscerators...  And, you wont have enough attacks to kill them normally, and they will probably have enough survive to take a chunk out of you..

well, then whoever charges a nice chunky block full of kroot deserves whatever happens.

on the vs grey knights issue, i think grey knights are a better value overall, more general survivability, a really nice standard gun, and a really nice standard weapon.

sure would be swell to equip whole squads with kiss's or powered swords though eh? : D

two attacks base and a 4+ inv is fine enough for me though.

Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Von Lazuli on July 13, 2003, 05:51:56 AM
Yes well said Pikachu: 2 attacks and a 4++ is fine. So what were we arguing about again?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 13, 2003, 09:45:22 AM
The argument was over instant death and I really shouldn't have started it... :'(
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Indro Tyr on July 13, 2003, 10:12:59 AM
Hey hey hey! Are we forgetting something here? Grey Knights SHOULD get stomped by Harlequins in an assault! Why you ask? Let's compare. The Grey Knight's special rules first...

He gets protection from both shooting and psychic powers.

He can Deep Strike

He is Fearless

He can use Storm Bolters as PISTOLS in CC!

And the Harlequin's special rules...

Almost all CC oriented

Gives little protection from shooting

Makes non-Fearless foes wet themselves

Now the Grey Knight also has a 3+ save, which is better than a 4++ SOMETIMES. He is armed with a deadly Storm Bolter, a weapon normally reserved for characters and Terminators. And the fact that he gets the +1 Attack from it makes it almost 4 x as effective as the Shuriken Pistol. Thier higher strength also gives them a chance against Dreadnoughts in CC. While when the Harlequins are engaged with a Dread you can just kiss the squad goodbye since their high Leadership will make them take forever to flee. Oh, and did I mention that his SB is even more deadly with BS 4?

Ah, and you guys have miscalculated again, he would hit on a 4+ against a Harlequin, he is WS 5. So he would have a 41% chance of killing a Harlequin in single combat, unless the Harlequin's 22% chance of killing him succeeds. Notice the ratio? That was not intentional, but yes, a Grey Knight has almost 2 x as much a chance of killing as Harlequin in CC as vice versa. WTF is up with that?  

So what justifies the points cost? Right now it appears that the Harlequin should be 15 points or something like that, because quite frankly, they are WORSE than Striking Scorpions and Howling Banshees in an assault! Don't quote me on that, I'll do the math later but it wouldn't supprise me!

P.S. - Don't worry about it Infinity Circuit, I think it's resolved.  ;)
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 13, 2003, 11:48:00 AM
Hey hey hey! Are we forgetting something here? Grey Knights SHOULD get stomped by Harlequins in an assault! Why you ask? Let's compare. The Grey Knight's special rules first...

He gets protection from both shooting and psychic powers.

He can Deep Strike

He is Fearless

He can use Storm Bolters as PISTOLS in CC!

And the Harlequin's special rules...

Almost all CC oriented

Gives little protection from shooting

Makes non-Fearless foes wet themselves

Now the Grey Knight also has a 3+ save, which is better than a 4++ SOMETIMES. He is armed with a deadly Storm Bolter, a weapon normally reserved for characters and Terminators. And the fact that he gets the +1 Attack from it makes it almost 4 x as effective as the Shuriken Pistol. Thier higher strength also gives them a chance against Dreadnoughts in CC. While when the Harlequins are engaged with a Dread you can just kiss the squad goodbye since their high Leadership will make them take forever to flee. Oh, and did I mention that his SB is even more deadly with BS 4?

Ah, and you guys have miscalculated again, he would hit on a 4+ against a Harlequin, he is WS 5. So he would have a 41% chance of killing a Harlequin in single combat, unless the Harlequin's 22% chance of killing him succeeds. Notice the ratio? That was not intentional, but yes, a Grey Knight has almost 2 x as much a chance of killing as Harlequin in CC as vice versa. WTF is up with that?  

So what justifies the points cost? Right now it appears that the Harlequin should be 15 points or something like that, because quite frankly, they are WORSE than Striking Scorpions and Howling Banshees in an assault! Don't quote me on that, I'll do the math later but it wouldn't supprise me!

P.S. - Don't worry about it Infinity Circuit, I think it's resolved.  ;)

I completely agree with you.  But, there is one thing that can turn the tide in favor of the Harlequin.  A Grey Knight Squad can only have one of their Nemesis be a Power Weapon.  However, in a Harlequin squad you can potentially have three hidden Harlequin's Kisses or Power Weapons.  This can be obscenely useful.

Lets see how much more useful it is to have these special weapons.  1/2 * 5/6 * 1/2 (4++)*2 means that they have a 10/24 chance, which is a 41% chance for GK.

Power Weapon:
The Harlequins have a 2/3*1/3*3 which equals 67% chance of killing WITHOUT charging

Harlequin's Kiss:
Then it is 2/3*5/6*1/3*3=10/18=56%

Now, assuming a typical squad of 6 Harlequins with a leader with Power Weapon, a Kiss in the squad, and a Power Weapon in the squad.  As they are mounted in a Venom, they charge.  They will kill on average 88/27 GK, which is 3.259.  Then about 2 of their number will die from a same number of enemies.  Therefore, due to their famed ELDAR flexibility, they are able to turn the tide!

I completely agree with you this is so stupid as they are all such juxtopositions of their original purposes.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Indro Tyr on July 13, 2003, 12:12:04 PM
Ok, getting back to my statement about Harlequins and CC specalists of their Craftworld brethren. I was quite supprised to find that I was right, their specialists are in fact better than ours! Through the course of all of my scenarios, I've figured out that regular Harlequins just plain suck. Those with Power Weapons or Harlequin's Kisses actually kill things! And for the 9 extra points you should get better stats, while keeping weapons the same, if you know what I mean. CC aspect warriors have better weapons, and thus they perform better (no pun intended), even though their stats are worse. Now for Harlequins they should still have good weapons but better stats for the extra points. Do you all see where I am coming from? I may be coming as a little confusing. I have found a pretty solid solution to the problem, but it may seem over-powered at first. Make Harlequin's Kisses and Power Weapons standard equipment! And keep the points the same, because see below. This would eliminate the problem that regular Harlequins don't really kill much of anything, despite their fearsome reputation. This would allow them ro live up to their reputations. A squad of 10 charging a squad of 10 Grey Knights would kill 8.9 of them, but remember that the Grey Knights would have roughly two turns of shooting at them, which I figured would kill 8.9 Harlequins! So it balances out perfectly. Kisses would kill 7.4, but they have the added Insta-kill ability, so that also balance out. Besides, look at all the Harlequin units, they almost ALWAYS have diffent mixes of weapons, why not make that part of the rules? It would even the playing field and balance out the game. I know it would be way in favor of the Harlequins in assault, but their opponents already have the shooting advantage. I think it would really balance the army out. Opinions anyone?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 13, 2003, 12:17:31 PM
I think that up against anything lacking T4 and powerarmor the Harlequins are perfect the way they are, statswise. We slaughter Eldars, IG and Orks dead. D-E-D.
However, I do see your point.
What if the cost for the kiss/pw dropped, and you were allowed three in a troupe? Would that make it more balanced?
I am fearing we are overpowering the Harlequins something fierce here...
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 13, 2003, 12:47:10 PM
The thing is that you have OTHER weapons.  The Harlequins can use Pistols (yes I know Rasmus you don't use them but I have great success).  Also, we have the Death Jesters which can murder things from long range.  When you take into account the speed and the fact you can bring 2+ squads to bear on one squad in a typical setup makes it so that no change is necessary.  I feel our speed and ability to double on the flanks makes up for individual weakness.

P.S. Congrats everyone for breaking the post number on the other Harlequins Codex!  I think this will turn out quite well.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Indro Tyr on July 13, 2003, 01:01:24 PM
I see where you're coming from but my goal is to repair the normal Troupers. Right now they rely on their PW/Kiss wielding brothers to get the job done. But those with PW/Kisses still kill too much to give them all special weapons. So I am attempting to establish a middle ground for them. It would be easy to simply make them cost 30 points each, but we are already few in number. White Scars even outnumber me! Right now I think the only balanced solution is what I stated in my last post, and while it seems over-powered I think that is because we are used to regular Troupers being under-powered. Perhaps to counter-balance this tone down their Invulnerable save to 5++ like in Troll #64. I understand what both you and I are saying, and the conflicting issue is I agree with both. I have played battles with the Harlequin's Kiss and Powerblades being combined before so I know what it is like to wipe out a whole squad in one round of combat. What I noticed is that while I took some hard knocks in shooting phases, I still won the day. Now that I think of it toning down their save to 5++ would completely balance it out, assuming that Harlequins with specialist weapons kill roughly as much as my characters with the illegal combo did. Right now (with the current rules) I think that Harlequins are a little too durable with a 4+ cover save. I would have agreed with the Troll's 5++ if they hadn't completely massacred the Harlequins' statlines and other rules.

So in summary I say keep my idea, but tone down their save to 5++. This will make them deadly on the offensive, but easily dealt with if contained. It would make them a risky and difficult army to play, but if used correctly can massacre the opposition. Basicly it would be massacre-or-be-massacred. Besides, most armies that are few in number follow this exact same principle. It'd make for a characterful and challenging army, that rewards excellent tactics with almost sure victory, and penalizes unforseen blunders with certain doom. I relaize this sounds a little strange but there are other armies out there like it.

Also, on an afterthought how about a third/fourth option for Troupers? Powergloves and/or Neuro-Gauntlets I'm thinking. Powergloves would just double strength. Neuro-Gauntlets are the Eversor Assassins' weapons of choice. I am not sure if posting the rules for these would violate copyright laws... so unless I find out otherwise you can find the rules in Codex: Assassins, or Codex: Daemonhunters. Obviously these can be changed to Poweraxes or Neuro-swords if the modeling issue gets in the way, but some of the Troupers I own have Gloves that look like formidable weapons, so that was my inspiration.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 13, 2003, 02:51:55 PM
So tone the 4++ in cc to 5++, keep the 4+ coversave for shooting, still negated by templates.
Fair enough, I can see that.
And we drop the kiss and PW by? 2? And allow 3 to a troupe? Any number? I have problem seeing how we can give kiss or powerweapon to every trouper without point-increase.


Oh yes, the 2" killzone in the 4th ed assasult-rules will affect the Harlequin filp-belt greatly. any ideas on how to balance this.

We are trying to make a list that will win 50% of the time, not most or all the time, afterall. We want everyone we face to say "Yeah, this looks cool. I think I will..." not "Oh hell no! I am not playing this!"
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Indro Tyr on July 13, 2003, 04:18:37 PM
Hm, I was thinking 5+ Cover and 5++ Invulnerable. But a 5++ Invulnerable vs. both shooting and CC would make alot more sense. It'd just be merging to two together (the suit and the dodge). If a Wych Cult can have 4++ Invulnerable saves I think we can have 5++'s and be better in Close Combat.

Rasmus, I think that no point changes need to be made to the Kisses and Power Weapons, just make them up to 4 in a squad. Namely because 3 is an odd number for weapon choices, I mean how often does it show up? I must still agree with my own idea of having each Trouper carry a better weapon but as of late we have only our two conflicting opinions on the matter, so others pipe in! We need feedback on the issue! You see, Harlequins without special weapons rely on those with them, but those with them are too powerful to make a squad of them. Besides, most of the armies (or at least the popular ones) in 40k are high-toughness, good save troops. So I am at a loss with both of our ideas, because niether would completely solve the problem. Which is why we need more ideas.

As for the 2" Kill Zone, keep the '2" with all attacks' rule. And then extend the Kill Radius to 4" for Harlequins in B2B only.  

Also to kill two birds with one stone. Rasmus, I looked at your new Benathai Familiar rules, they look solid, but not very. First of 25 points for +1 Initiative is pointless. An Ordo Malleus Inquisitor can get the same thing for +6 Points and he actually needs it with his base of 4. Most of his other stat changes are anywhere from +6-10 points, plus he gains Henchmen to fight for him! So the familiars are extremely overpriced. Also drop their missile weapons, because as of late there is no familiar that has any effective missile capability. Just make the whole group of them one Wargear choice in my opinion.

Perhaps one for +5 points, it allows him to cast one Psychic Power two times in one turn once per game.

Then two for +10 points, allowing him to cast his Powers on 3d6 discarding the highest, plus allowing him to cast one Psychic Power two times in one turn once per game.

And three for +15 points, which add in the ability of augmenting one of his powers per phase, via the augment power of the Ulthwe Eldar (at LD 8).  

How about four for +50 points, granting him the new ability to channel his powers into his close combat attacks, giving him some rules that boost his potential in combat, but drain him of his other familiar bonuses for the duration of its effects.

All of these effects except the last one are actual effects granted by legal Wargear in 40k, namely Consecrated Scrolls, Runes of Witnessing, and the psychic power Augment. The points for each of this have remained unchanged.

Hm... I just realized I write very long posts...      
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 13, 2003, 05:02:02 PM
Hm, I was thinking 5+ Cover and 5++ Invulnerable. But a 5++ Invulnerable vs. both shooting and CC would make alot more sense. It'd just be merging to two together (the suit and the dodge). If a Wych Cult can have 4++ Invulnerable saves I think we can have 5++'s and be better in Close Combat.

Rasmus, I think that no point changes need to be made to the Kisses and Power Weapons, just make them up to 4 in a squad. Namely because 3 is an odd number for weapon choices, I mean how often does it show up? I must still agree with my own idea of having each Trouper carry a better weapon but as of late we have only our two conflicting opinions on the matter, so others pipe in! We need feedback on the issue! You see, Harlequins without special weapons rely on those with them, but those with them are too powerful to make a squad of them. Besides, most of the armies (or at least the popular ones) in 40k are high-toughness, good save troops. So I am at a loss with both of our ideas, because niether would completely solve the problem. Which is why we need more ideas.

As for the 2" Kill Zone, keep the '2" with all attacks' rule. And then extend the Kill Radius to 4" for Harlequins in B2B only.  

Also to kill two birds with one stone. Rasmus, I looked at your new Benathai Familiar rules, they look solid, but not very. First of 25 points for +1 Initiative is pointless. An Ordo Malleus Inquisitor can get the same thing for +6 Points and he actually needs it with his base of 4. Most of his other stat changes are anywhere from +6-10 points, plus he gains Henchmen to fight for him! So the familiars are extremely overpriced. Also drop their missile weapons, because as of late there is no familiar that has any effective missile capability. Just make the whole group of them one Wargear choice in my opinion.

Perhaps one for +5 points, it allows him to cast one Psychic Power two times in one turn once per game.

Then two for +10 points, allowing him to cast his Powers on 3d6 discarding the highest, plus allowing him to cast one Psychic Power two times in one turn once per game.

And three for +15 points, which add in the ability of augmenting one of his powers per phase, via the augment power of the Ulthwe Eldar (at LD 8).  

How about four for +50 points, granting him the new ability to channel his powers into his close combat attacks, giving him some rules that boost his potential in combat, but drain him of his other familiar bonuses for the duration of its effects.

All of these effects except the last one are actual effects granted by legal Wargear in 40k, namely Consecrated Scrolls, Runes of Witnessing, and the psychic power Augment. The points for each of this have remained unchanged.

Hm... I just realized I write very long posts...      

I strongly disagree with you as if you look at the cost of Chaos upgrades it is obvious that Familiars are actually UNDER-PRICED.

For example, for +65 points you get +1 attack, +1 WS, +1 I, and the ability to use another Psychic Power.  It costs ten less to have +1 attack and +1 psychic power.  When combined with even the ability to shoot a BASIC Fusion pistol, you will see that the Familiars are QUITE cheap.

I have already spoken to Rasmus on IM about this, I feel we shouldn't make a change.  Right now, the Harlequin strategy is based on bringing a sledgehammer on a small part of the enemy.  If we do this, we will make Harlequins able to actually fight a typical war, which is EXTREMELY unfluffy.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Pyro on July 13, 2003, 11:45:16 PM
So tone the 4++ in cc to 5++, keep the 4+ coversave for shooting, still negated by templates.
Fair enough, I can see that.
And we drop the kiss and PW by? 2? And allow 3 to a troupe? Any number? I have problem seeing how we can give kiss or powerweapon to every trouper without point-increase.


Oh yes, the 2" killzone in the 4th ed assasult-rules will affect the Harlequin filp-belt greatly. any ideas on how to balance this.

We are trying to make a list that will win 50% of the time, not most or all the time, afterall. We want everyone we face to say "Yeah, this looks cool. I think I will..." not "Oh hell no! I am not playing this!"
I live? Ive been quite busy with things, so no time for discussing these interesting rules. Now that my NEWELY ORDERED biel tan army just got the proverbial [content deleted] by games workshop, I think Im going to end up playing harlequins after all.

First, I must chuckle to myself, as we are back to a point I pointed out (all the way back?) on page 7...
Quote
I would give the ENTIRE army a 5++ save in close combat (yeah, wyches get a 4++, but they are hyped on futuristic speed). Independent characters (HQ/Elite characters, and DJs) in the army however should recieve 4++ cc saves because of their extra experience/training whatever. How about that?
So... first we fought over it, but with this new contender, I am happy that he was able to convince you guys to do it after all (well, sans the 4++ for independent chars, but I really think you should have that to keep the characters from being insta-killed often). So, of course, I favor this change ;D

Next up is the special weapons per squad. Indro tyr is correct that harlequins are indeed worse than aspect warriors in cc without their special weapons (although the real strength of harlequins is not their combat ability, but their skill at making others run away after killing only 1 more model than their enemy). 3 Special weapons per squad would be pretty sweet, but maybe one could have some sort of rule that went like the Shuriken cannon rule on jet-bikes, like:
For every (2 or 3) harlequins in the squad, one trouper may be armed with a power weapon at +* or a 'kiss at +*
This would encourage people to max out squads, which is always good, 'specially since being on a venom is stupid now with the f*cked up new transport rules.

As for the kill-zone thing. Just make it so the kill-zone for a harlequin is 4". Add it to the flip-belt rules, as having a flip-belt would certainly allow for the troupers to dart in and out of cc, killing models far away, and models without flip-belts don't need to have their kill-zone increased at all. Its not even that weird of a rule. Certainly no weirder than the dispersed formation rule...
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rilmanqualë on July 14, 2003, 01:41:11 AM
3 Special weapons per squad would be pretty sweet, but maybe one could have some sort of rule that went like the Shuriken cannon rule on jet-bikes, like:
For every (2 or 3) harlequins in the squad, one trouper may be armed with a power weapon at +* or a 'kiss at +*  This would encourage people to max out squads, which is always good, 'specially since being on a venom is stupid now with the f*cked up new transport rules.

I agree, with the way it is now people (like myself) are more inclined to take small squads and max out the special weapons.  This can get messy in gaming terms though, and requires differnt tactics than taking bigger squads.  1 spec. weapon / 3 or 4 guys makes it much more balanced in terms of weapons/man ratios.  

However, compare this to say SMurfs or sumthin, where they get one special weapon (ie flamer etc) per squad with an additional one available to the Sgt.  Right now we're pullin out 4 special weapons with additional options to the troupe leader, so we're not doin too bad really.


Quote
As for the kill-zone thing. Just make it so the kill-zone for a harlequin is 4".

Makes sense to me, although personal I have issues with the whole TAR to start with.  A 4" Kill zone would be a pretty sweet bonus, although I can see GW giving it out more and more just like they're doing with insta-kill weapons now.  It'd be a good start though.

Rilmanquale
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 14, 2003, 03:27:20 AM
The propsed changes (weapons, killzone) are not balkanced as they stand now. The drop from 4++ to 5++ is not going to balance up the massive influx of special weapons we are talking about here. We are overpowering this list, which is something which will ensure that is never gets any recognition, even from the boys at Fanatic.
This needs to be addressed.

And as to the familiars; minor tweaking is being made, but the kind of changes you are proposing Indro Tyr are not sound, as far as the math and the playtesting goes.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Von Lazuli on July 14, 2003, 04:54:39 AM
I personally think we should stop comparing this list to Grey Knights, otherwise I think we will get a very overpowered list, as GK are already a bit overpowered compared to older lists.

With response to the proposed Familiar changes, I dont like them, no, i like them but I prefer the current ones. A Shadowseer with 3/4 Familiars has a very, very nice statline.

Re: Upping the number of special weapons avaliable to a squad. I wouldn't think it is nessercery if basic Harlequins weren't so expensive. At the moment they lack the killing power of a 25pt model. I mean compare them to the Howling Banshees of our cousins. They may hit on one less but they kill marines (and most other things) far more efficiently, despite their lower points cost. So here is my suggestion, the Halrequins gain a special rule called "well placed blow",  The Harlequin is trained to place his/her blow well so it wounds easily. If you roll a 5+ when rolling to hit then you wound on one dice score better than usual (i.e a 4+ rather than a 5+), note that this cannot be used to wound on better than a 2+. Thus a few good rolls to hit means that you do not need to make difficult to-wound rolls.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 14, 2003, 09:19:59 AM
I that would be a superb method for doing that.  However, the problem is against high toughness opponents you would suddenly have Daemonic Talons that are better.  Therefore, it should not activate against things you cannot tough already.

Pyro why is it stupid to be on a Venom?  I've never lost one of my three and they always carry me to the enemy quicker than anything.

Rilmanquale the SM do not get special weapons on the Seargent, it has to be a vet., and then they only get one shot with it as it is a combi-weapon.

Umm, we don't want to have an entire army of Howling Banshees!  We have an army with powerful short and long range shooting that can go into combat with a small part of the enemy and completely wipe it out in a single phase.  I do not see what is wrong with this.  IMHO right now you are ONLY looking at close combat and ignoring the rest of the benefits Harlequins gain!
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rilmanqualë on July 15, 2003, 01:44:29 AM
Von Lazuli - re: Well Placed Blow, its a bit confusing and seems like it'd be a lot of trouble to try and work out on the field.  Is this used in another army or anything?  Cuz its a great idea, just needs some tweaking to make it practical I think.

InfCirc - It seems to me that we WERE talking about CC, but mebbe not.  Considering this is supposed to be the strength of a Harly army anyways, which other areas are we overlooking?

and oh yeah, my bad on the SM example, thats the way my usual opponents have it set up so I ferget the details sometimes...   :-[  But the thought is the same, we're still way ahead in the special weapons/squad department.  We love them, we need them, but not on every model!

ok, here's a thought.  Right now we're mostly talking about getting saving throws to protect our models better.  But what their hitting power?  Sure, the average Harlequin has a high WS and with halving the opponents WS, we get a LOT of hits in any given turn.  However, To Wounds are on a 5+ against yer average SM and other armies, due to our low strength and their higher toughness.  Is there a way to balance that out so we get a better To Wound ratio on our hits?  Powerfists of course, but then we're striking last which kind of defeats the purpose.  Of course there's the Kiss, but we've already discussed th elimitations of 3 per squad...  What else can be done in this regard, or do you even think its necessary?

Rilmanquale
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: TheMightyPikachu on July 15, 2003, 03:03:23 AM
so, are we trading 4++ sv's for more special weapons?

I'm very very fond of that 4++, it just feels good to have.

one idea... 4'' harlequin kill zones? or 3''

or maybe a rule that allows harlequins to not lose charging bonuses to firing weapons
like... "hip shot" or "fast draw"
thinning out ranks with shuriken fire could be enough to give plain jane harle with ccw's that boost she needs

Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 15, 2003, 03:38:57 AM
The solution was too simple for me to see. I am taking care of it now. It will eliminate the necessity of droppping the save, and no more talk about increasing ratios for special weapons. It also favors quick overwhelming strikes rather than wars of attrition, as have been lamented before.
Sometimes I wonder if my head is even screwed on straigh. I should have figured this out days ago.
Update uploaing in a few minutes; Familiar, this new thing and some typos, and the Eldar vehicle/ally thing, as soon as final wording gets approved.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 15, 2003, 06:26:25 AM
New revision updated.

Items changed:

1. Familiar powerline as per comments and additional playtesting.
2. Warlock-group - as per playtesting (everyone groaning when they rolled +1BS "aah man! Why do I get that?!")
3. Updated flip-belt with new kill-zone - as per comments by TMP
4. Updated looted vehicle with original crew-option at expense of Elite and Eldar Ally-slot - as per comments
5. Fitted with new twist, allowing for a better sense of tactical nature of the Masque, and also (hopefully) eliminating the need to change any special weapons - as per comment and playtesting.

Enjoy!
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: PheonixLordChaos on July 15, 2003, 06:49:43 AM
Really good job on this one. As soon as i can get to all the journals, imma proxy up an army outta my existing eldar force and try em out. ill come back with the results vs. all the various races.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 15, 2003, 07:16:47 AM
Thank you.
We are all looking forward to hearing you comments after playtesting.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: DMan on July 15, 2003, 09:29:50 AM
The wording for Bio-exposive ammunition needs to be tightened up a bit more...
"(This is added to the rules on Bio-explosive ammunition in the Citadel Journal.)
The template placed on a dead model must be placed to cover as many enemy units as possible, and can be repositioned as other blast weapons"

The 2 concerns I have with the current wording are:
1) 'on a dead model' infers that the shooting player gets to pick which model dies, which is contrary to the normal shooting rules.
2) 'covering as many models as possible': this is the normal procedure, and I do not think needs to be included in the description.

How about:

"The template must be placed centered over a model in the target squad, and may be repositioned as other blast weapons."

I like the Hit and fade rule. The regular Harlies needed a bit of an upgrade. I think this is it!
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 15, 2003, 10:37:51 AM
That looks reallly good!

I really like the new Familiar powerline, that was something brought up a while ago thank you for removing the useless +1 Initiative.

Hit and Fade is really nice.  Thats a good balancer against those high toughness opponents.

I think that the list is probably in one of the final development stages.  It looks reallly good!
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 15, 2003, 02:41:08 PM
DMan - spot on. Wording altered, although a new upload has not been made.

I feel we are making good time, but there is far too little remote playtesting. All I have is my own against various opponent and some scattered reports. if we want to work out the kinks of this list we need more playtesting. "Out of house" as it were (me being the house :) )
Anyone else care to playtest?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: DMan on July 15, 2003, 03:44:15 PM
How patient are you Rasmus?
I go on parental leave for 8 weeks, starting in August. I should be able to get in some games then...

 I'm currently occupied getting ready for a tourney, this weekend, with my vanilla Eldar; so no playtesting this week.

...DMan
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 15, 2003, 04:59:06 PM
Well, Rasmus, as you know I need to playtest my TK list.  However, I will be able to test this on Friday, so I should have more detailed advice.

P.S. wow 200+ posts!  I'm surprised we haven't become stagnant...
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: hellstrome on July 15, 2003, 09:53:51 PM
WOW!!!!! NOW THAT IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT YO!! I have just viewed your revision of the Harlequins codex and I must say, " IT IS PERFECT!!". Please submit this to Gav Thrope and the Games workshop headquarters so that when they complete the final work they will include your work in it as well. I am really impressed. We could also support you by possibly writting to the games workshop to maybe add a little pressure. Just a thought. I will play test your revisions to see how it plays.  ;D COOL!!!
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 15, 2003, 10:26:19 PM
Quote
I *Love* EldarOnline!
wow that is one of the old defaults...I feel old right now... :'(

Rasmus has already had his work included, he submitted some of the ideas included in 44/50 although they were edited horribly.

Rasmus I playtested the new Warlocks finally.  They are superb!  Even though you can only have a maximum of five, Wyches with better rules and power weapons/plasma pistols rock the enemies' world!  I'm really glad they are limited at five we need to keep it this way at all costs.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rilmanqualë on July 16, 2003, 12:49:14 AM
Hoo boy, I was just figgering out the old list, now I've got a whole new one!  I'll do what I can, Rasmus.

Gotta question though.  Whast the point of the whole warlock/familiar squad?  It doesn't seem to match any fluff I"ve ever found, and I can't help wondering if it relaly adds anything necessary to the army list.  Would you mind explaining why you included it?

btw, I'm not bashing you at all, don't get me wrong.  You've done an incredible thing, and I give you full props!  I'm afraid I just don't get it is all...

Rilmanquale
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 16, 2003, 03:35:41 AM
To all: I value your input, and the more playtesting we can get done on this the better. However, we are not in a terminal rush as GW does not look like they will be getting an Eldar Codex out any week soon.

Quote
Gotta question though.  Whast the point of the whole warlock/familiar squad?  It doesn't seem to match any fluff I"ve ever found, and I can't help wondering if it relaly adds anything necessary to the army list.  Would you mind explaining why you included it?
Certainly.
The Warlocks were as much a part of the original Harlequin-list (back in RT) as the High Warlock, who in 2nd ed turned into a Shadowseer. The Warlocks were still around back then though, but they filered away for CJ 39 and dropped from sight. This is their return.
The Benathai was introduced in CJ 17 (I think) along with a piece of the most compelling fluff there is for the Eldar race as a whole, about the battle between Slaanesh and Khaine (and Cegorach). With the introduction of familiars and servitors for the Inquisitors the rules also turned out to be simple enough to make.

Is that enough of an answer for you?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: DMan on July 16, 2003, 09:13:26 AM
Rasmus/InfinityCircuit,
Do you use the TAR, or v3 assault rules?

If using the TAR, I do not think the 3" kill-zone is a good thing. (D'oh, I just remembered about the 4++ save in cc...  I'll continue writing this anyway.  ::) )

I assume that if the Harlies have a 3" kill zone, so do thier enemy. This means that there are likely more models involved in the combat. When assaulting, the Harlies really want (assuming they do not have a 4++ save  ;) ) to kill everyone in the killzone to limit/eliminate the number of attacks against the Harlies. With a large kill zone it is much more difficult to wipe out the enemy in the zone, thus resulting in more counter attacks.

With the standard 2" kill zone, the Harlie player has more control over how much of the squad, and to a certain extent which models are in the kill zone. If the Harlie player wants a large kill zone, they should charge in such a way to get more enemy models in b2b.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 16, 2003, 10:19:09 AM
I use the TARs.  I don't see any need to make it a mutual 3", representing the Hit and Fade rule in a new way.  Maybe it should be put there, to represent that the enemy doesn't get it?

And the 4++ save will help a lot even if it is mutual.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: DMan on July 16, 2003, 11:03:12 AM
If the intent is for the Harlies to have a 3" kill zone and thier enemy a 2" zone, it should be explicitly stated in the wording of the special rule.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 16, 2003, 03:05:33 PM
I use the 3rd ed assault-rules, and have not read up well on the TAR. Any susgestions on how the wording on a non-mutual kill-zone could look?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 16, 2003, 05:09:44 PM
You could say:

"The rule _______ also allows you to extend your kill-zone by 1".  However, your enemy still retains their original kill-zone, giving you an advantage."

The giving you an advantage part could be removed but otherwise that should work.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: TheMightyPikachu on July 16, 2003, 09:27:42 PM
you should also note that the harlequins still MUST do consolidating hth moves

so you don't end up with all your guys positioned 3'' away from them in assault
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Von Lazuli on July 17, 2003, 01:23:26 AM
you should also note that the harlequins still MUST do consolidating hth moves

so you don't end up with all your guys positioned 3'' away from them in assault
This was mentioned in the original flip-belt rules.

"Remember that models that assault the enemy must try to get into base contact if possible." (CJ#39 p6)

I beleive that states what you meant, TMP.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 17, 2003, 11:06:36 AM
you should also note that the harlequins still MUST do consolidating hth moves

so you don't end up with all your guys positioned 3'' away from them in assault
This was mentioned in the original flip-belt rules.

"Remember that models that assault the enemy must try to get into base contact if possible." (CJ#39 p6)

I beleive that states what you meant, TMP.

I think that the fear is with such changing of the rules people will remove that little thing about the CJ and just forget to put it back in.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Indro Tyr on July 17, 2003, 05:37:07 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but what the heck is the point of crewing CWE looted vehicles with their original crew? It adds nothing to the vehicle! Their BS remains the same. Yet at the same time it takes up another slot! What the heck? The only useful one is the Dark Eldar BS 4, but why the CWE? It is completely useless to have them crewed by regular Eldar then. May I propose a change, if they are crewed by DE or CWE they may take upgrades for the vehicles normally restricted to pure DE or CWE. Because otherwise that is a pointless upgrade. That or something else needs to be changed or perhaps drop it all together.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 17, 2003, 05:42:15 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but what the heck is the point of crewing CWE looted vehicles with their original crew? It adds nothing to the vehicle! Their BS remains the same. Yet at the same time it takes up another slot! What the heck? The only useful one is the Dark Eldar BS 4, but why the CWE? It is completely useless to have them crewed by regular Eldar then. May I propose a change, if they are crewed by DE or CWE they may take upgrades for the vehicles normally restricted to pure DE or CWE. Because otherwise that is a pointless upgrade. That or something else needs to be changed or perhaps drop it all together.

The point of that is not increased Ballistic Skill.  The point is to make it so that they cannot break down as they have mechanics on hand who are familiar with the style of the vehicle.  If you have DE vehicles they do not benefit fro mthe ballistic skill to my knoweledge.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 18, 2003, 04:47:30 AM
The wording on that was a bit unclear, but I have fixed that now, and I have also updated the kill-zone.

Next: Mimes. In the revision, are they good enough without their special Harlequin powers (belt, mask, suit)? Does anyone use the Master Mime? Does disruption work as it should?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: DMan on July 18, 2003, 08:44:29 AM
<edit> D'oh. I read the current revision, and the explaination is clear.

I still do not understand why this special rule is needed, though. </edit>


The wording on that was a bit unclear, but I have fixed that now, and I have also updated the kill-zone.

I reviewed the discussion on the kill zone increase, and still do not understand why it is needed. Rasmus or IC???

Right now, this rule leaves a bad taste in my mouth: I'm not comfortable with the Harlies being able to hit their opponent without them hitting back. I could be misunderstanding the intent or wording... In the TAR, the enemy models the killzone are also the models that get to throw bricks (aka: hit back).
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 18, 2003, 08:46:43 AM
It was part of the CJ rules, and this is just a thought to get it transitioned into TAR.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 18, 2003, 09:51:52 AM
I'm doing like a 8000 point total battle today, I'll try and use a Master Mime.  The problem is that with a looted Falcon, a squad of Scorps for it, and a Solitaire, I have no room.  Oh well, maybe I'll try taking a fourth Venom instead of the Falcon....
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: DMan on July 18, 2003, 12:39:00 PM
D'oh. I read the current revision, and the explaination is clear.

I still do not understand why this special rule is needed, though.

The wording on that was a bit unclear, but I have fixed that now, and I have also updated the kill-zone.

I reviewed the discussion on the kill zone increase, and still do not understand why it is needed. Rasmus or IC???

Right now, this rule leaves a bad taste in my mouth: I'm not comfortable with the Harlies being able to hit their opponent without them hitting back. I could be misunderstanding the intent or wording... In the TAR, the enemy models the killzone are also the models that get to throw bricks (aka: hit back).
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 18, 2003, 07:25:58 PM
I don't either, I guess the problem is that with so many attacks half the guys killed will not be affected due to the kill zone... ???
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: TheMightyPikachu on July 19, 2003, 12:03:14 AM
I don't either, I guess the problem is that with so many attacks half the guys killed will not be affected due to the kill zone... ???

that's the idea i was thinking of, and so more harlequins in general can fight in hth when piled up
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 19, 2003, 02:00:04 PM
On the other hand, I just used my Harlies and murdered with hit and fade, so maybe it is unneccesary to prevent them from being overpowered.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 19, 2003, 04:19:06 PM
So the rule works? Did you feel it overpowered?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 19, 2003, 08:54:21 PM
The rule worked perfectly.  I didn't feel it was overpowered, except when used with the kiss.  I think that they shouldn't work in concert because then you have an unfair way to deal with multi-wound models.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 20, 2003, 05:41:06 AM
I would think that it would work well with the kiss unless you cheat with it. It sais "re-roll any failed roll to wound" not "any" just "any failed". This means that you can not reroll anything but the "1"s, not anything else, to generate more sixes, just the ones that fail.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 20, 2003, 10:05:37 AM
I didn't cheat with it, my point was that when you have like 20 attacks, you are suddenly likely to get more 6s than before.  But all in all it was a fair rule that allowed me to dominate in CC, our specialty.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 20, 2003, 12:34:42 PM
Ok, just wanted to make sure. Putting togetehr a 2500 Harlequin Masque using these rules and will rtoss it up here for review soon.
What next? We have dealt with psychics, mimes, Looted vehicles and Eldar Allies, Warlocks, bio-ammo and typos. What do we have left?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 20, 2003, 02:53:19 PM
What we have now is balancing out the special rules to ensure that they are not overly powerful.

What we might also want to start thinking about now is updating the CJ fluff to place in it.  Any ideas on this?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 20, 2003, 02:56:19 PM
So what special rules would need balancing? i have not seen many problems with them the way they are.

And the fluff needs not that much work. Some work on the Spiritwalker might be in order, all the other stuff in "on file" from older lists.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Von Lazuli on July 21, 2003, 03:07:33 AM
So is the list eventually going to be published with all the stats and stuff?

PS Try stealing some fluff from the CWEO team..... I beleive you wrote some IC(despite the fact your title says otherwise...)


*edit* I take that thing back about your title IC, I see you are now a historian
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 21, 2003, 03:44:35 AM
So is the list eventually going to be published with all the stats and stuff?

PS Try stealing some fluff from the CWEO team..... I beleive you wrote some IC(despite the fact your title says otherwise...)
1. This is our hope. With this amount of playtesting and work behind it it rivals GWs original list, and far outpaces any other "hobbylist" that I have seen this far. Maybe we can petition GW to include this in some way, or at least update the CJ once again.

2. I think we shall stay clear of stealing anything. Very little fluff needs to be added to the list as it stands now, but some work could be nice. However, I am sure we can handle it would stealing it from anyone else, though.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 21, 2003, 09:12:08 AM
If Ms. Kessler does not want my piece, then I'm happy to have it in there in the end, just like how in CJ 39 they have that little thing on the dance.

The only thing I'm wondering about is ignoring Difficult Terrain, this thing has worked wonders for me and I'm beginning to think that its unfair.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Brandnew on July 21, 2003, 02:04:37 PM
Absoutley astunding rasmus there i said it enough said (astunding)

                       Brandnew
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 21, 2003, 11:03:53 PM
Absoutley astunding rasmus there i said it enough said (astunding)

                       Brandnew

Its astounding, and welcome to EO 3.0c!

Well sorry but I'm not going to be able to post much less playtest for 3 weeks so unless more people step up (not like I've done that much) I think we will be slowed down a wee bit...
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 22, 2003, 04:33:45 AM
I have been talking to GW about all of this but they are rather silent. They asked me to send all of this to Andy Chambers, but I fear it may be lost there. I will compile a version for him and we will see.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Von Lazuli on July 22, 2003, 06:41:20 AM
I have been talking to GW about all of this but they are rather silent. They asked me to send all of this to Andy Chambers, but I fear it may be lost there. I will compile a version for him and we will see.

Although going straight to the top is good when you can talk face to face with someone ("bring me the manager!") I really don't think it will work with GW.

Try for an Eldar sympathiser such as Phil Kelly....
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 22, 2003, 06:53:29 AM
I asked to be put into contact with someone who could do anything about this, and they directed me to the Chapter Approved Team, which is headed by Chambers. I will gladly send out multiple copies of the list, if you know anyone else who should have one. Just PM me the email at gw for anyone who might want to see it, and I will make sure they get it. Like this Kelly.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 22, 2003, 10:06:07 AM
You might as well send it to Gav too, this was his brainchild and he might want to know about it...

I like the new army list as that one shows it really opens up a whole lot of fun possibilities, like that of the Falcon with its firepower.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Silent_Incubi on July 22, 2003, 02:49:21 PM
This is cool  ;D. I hope they do take your list into consideration. Looks like its worthy of GW to me. Hopefully they'll make it a Chapter Approved army, then later an actual Codex.

I could finally use Harlequins legally to boost my DE!

Good luck on this...
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 22, 2003, 03:15:08 PM
Thank you very much.
Please comment on the list if there are any changes you would like to see, and please do playtest it, and report your results. Any feedback is welcome.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Silent_Incubi on July 22, 2003, 10:09:06 PM
Do you mind if I test them along with my DE? I have too few models/conversions to use them on their own.

Did anyone test them along another army?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 22, 2003, 11:03:57 PM
Of course not!  We have to ensure that unfair combinations are not possible to exploit.

I have not playtested them with another army, (Harlequins are my only army basically that is playable--Eldar cannibalized for them) although I bet Rasmus has with his CWE armies.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 23, 2003, 05:28:23 AM
I have tried it along my Craftworlders, but have heard little about how they handle along with DE. Against the DE, this I know, but with them is another story. Please do tell of your results.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 23, 2003, 09:15:27 AM
The only thing I'm worried about is the Wyche Cult.  You can still retain all of their CC benefits and take some super expensive elites choices to blow the enemy out of the water.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 23, 2003, 09:51:23 AM
Such an army would excell in hth, just as I am sure a similar army could be contructed that excelled at shooting. However, when played on an uneven field (hth troops facing shooting, shooting troops facing hth) these specialist-armies tend to get wiped out fairly quickly.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: TheMightyPikachu on July 23, 2003, 10:27:40 AM
The only thing I'm worried about is the Wyche Cult.  You can still retain all of their CC benefits and take some super expensive elites choices to blow the enemy out of the water.

Wych cults can take warriors as elites right? i don't think 1-3 death jesters will make much more of an impact than a squad of warriors with heavy weapons
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 23, 2003, 11:42:03 AM
I have put together a few letters to GW now, and will be sending them off next week.
Any ast pieces of input we should include in the list before it sails off to the big boys?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Grimm on July 23, 2003, 03:45:03 PM
I should be playing a game Friday night with your new list. I'll let you know how it goes.

Something to think about - your list has Hit and Run giving the Harlies a reroll to wound in the round they charge. Did you consider making the rule work like the Lictor's Hit and Run ability? (Able to make a fallback move at the end of the HtH round with enemy only consolidating.)  Just curious.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 23, 2003, 04:54:29 PM
There are powers that lets you get that ability as well. Look through the Masques of the Great Harlequin and you will find it there. Combine the two and Whammo!
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 23, 2003, 11:08:28 PM
The only thing I'm worried about is the Wyche Cult.  You can still retain all of their CC benefits and take some super expensive elites choices to blow the enemy out of the water.

Warlocks are Wyches on super combat drugs, they have all these special rules and essentially drugs and multiple power weapons and multiple Bio-Ammo.  THAT is what I'm talking about... :o  Combine that with regular Wyches and booom!

Great Rasmus I'm glad we can move into the next stage.
Wych cults can take warriors as elites right? i don't think 1-3 death jesters will make much more of an impact than a squad of warriors with heavy weapons
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Silent_Incubi on July 24, 2003, 02:30:51 AM
The rules work quite well along a DE army. They provide CC fighters that are better than Wyches and firepower that matches ours :o, but of course at a higher cost.

The Warlock group is pretty strong, but I think their points make up for their viciousness. I was thinking, shouldn't they be attached to the Shadowseer? If the seer is mounted on a J. bike, then he shouldn't be allowed to take them.

I prefer my Archon over the Great Harlequin, but that guy gets some good equipment, and is pretty powerful in HtH.

3 Death Jesters on a Raider can destroy tanks and infantry alike if properly armed. I love this tactic. It has the same amount of firepower as a Ravager, and a bit of assault capabilty. Cost quite a bit however, but the results have been nice.

Perhaps one thing though, is that attaching a Shadowseer with a Raider Squad with 3-4 Death Jesters and Nightshield combined pissed some of my opponents. They couldn't shoot it down. They, on the other hand,  got shot to pieces. A bit unfair, even though it was to my advantage  ;).

All in all, the trial codex went quite smoothly. Played a few games with it, and won most.My record is 4 wins-2 losses-1 ties. I fought Space Marines, Tyranids, Blood Angels, and Alaitoc Eldar. Alaitoc beat me twice cause of that bloody disruption table! She got lucky. Her rangers rolled 4, 4, 5, 6 on 4 of their rolls! O well, she played well :D.

What are the restrictions for taking allied Harlequins? As elites? I think you should limit them like Eldar allies to Harlequins, 0-2.

Well, its an honor to help shape the codex, even if it is only a little. I shall continue playtesting them.
 
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 24, 2003, 03:58:37 AM
The rules work quite well along a DE army. They provide CC fighters that are better than Wyches and firepower that matches ours :o, but of course at a higher cost.
 If it is harder on the board it should cost more to bring to the board, so it works out well, does it not?

Quote
The Warlock group is pretty strong, but I think their points make up for their viciousness. I was thinking, shouldn't they be attached to the Shadowseer? If the seer is mounted on a J. bike, then he shouldn't be allowed to take them.
The thought is to provide the list with a squad Elite-choice, not just individuals. So that is why they are not retinue for the Shadowseer. That and the fact that with the Familiars he is fairly deadly himself and needs no real retinue.

Quote
I prefer my Archon over the Great Harlequin, but that guy gets some good equipment, and is pretty powerful in HtH.
He can fit most supporting roles on the battlefield, just as the Farseer and the SMurf Commanders can. I think he is a bit more versatile than many other HW-characters.

Quote
3 Death Jesters on a Raider can destroy tanks and infantry alike if properly armed. I love this tactic. It has the same amount of firepower as a Ravager, and a bit of assault capabilty. Cost quite a bit however, but the results have been nice.
 Hehe. I can imagine.

Quote
Perhaps one thing though, is that attaching a Shadowseer with a Raider Squad with 3-4 Death Jesters and Nightshield combined pissed some of my opponents. They couldn't shoot it down. They, on the other hand,  got shot to pieces. A bit unfair, even though it was to my advantage  ;).
 Well, there is always that odd combination of units that drive people nuts. There are those in every list. This is novel as the list in novel, and I am sure your opponents will figure out that running a rhino up next to this, fire flamers without disembarking will bring this down in flames quickly enough.

Quote
What are the restrictions for taking allied Harlequins? As elites? I think you should limit them like Eldar allies to Harlequins, 0-2.
 It is detailed in Citadel Journal 39. There was no point in changing it, at least nothing that has turned up this far. Taking Harlequins as allies for the Eldar usually adds quite a bit of punch to the Host/Kabal, but the price is high enough to make people think it over twice first.

Quote
Well, its an honor to help shape the codex, even if it is only a little. I shall continue playtesting them.
 We all thank you for your contributions and comments. It is greatly appreciated.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 24, 2003, 10:29:12 AM
I think we should limit it to 0-2 because that can prevent some beslubbered up combos (I never swear you see how serious I am).  Especially with Biel-Tann and USF

Thank you for the things, that sounds like a powerful idea with the DJs and the Shadowseer!
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 24, 2003, 10:41:19 AM
Quote
My Super-Wyche Warlock Apprentices will crush you with 5 Plasma Pistols, 5 Power Weapons, and rerolling misses.  See above for details on their power!
I think that, in all farness, you should include the point-cost for that, InfinityCircuit. It would be pretty indimidatingly high, wouldn't you say?
Title: Possible Issue w/ Masque of Dark Veil
Post by: Grimm on July 24, 2003, 11:47:21 AM
It occured to me, what are you to do if your opponent parks a squad or vehicle on your point of deployment? Since you can only move it 2d6 if you forfeit any reserve rolls it would be possible for an opponent to totally prevent you from deploying any units after the first turn. Any vehicle and jump pack troops can easily keep up with the movement.

Any thoughts?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 24, 2003, 11:50:08 AM
It is a definite risk, something which has happened to me once, and it is truly a problem. It is the risk you take when you move the point too close to the enemy without being able to clear it. Once a troupe is through it they can keep up with it as well, normally, and keep pestering "blockers" off. It is a terror first time around, but normally avoidable the second.
Just don't place it too close to the enemy.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 24, 2003, 06:10:00 PM
This was Pmed to me by Hellstrome (http://www.eldaronline.com/community/index.php?board=;action=viewprofile;user=hellstrome) and after asking his permission I have been allowed to repost it here.

Quote
Great List. I would love to see it submitted to GW as soon as the test are complete. I had a chance to play test the list against Black Templars at 2000 pts.  I must save firstly that the 4+ Inv. Save is very helpful. Without it their is no way We could have won. IT is insane to think that a space marine in cc can swing his primitive little bolt gun at a harlie and kill him with it during the time that we had no cc save. For Harlie's to be such gracefull and acrobatic fighters to not have saves in CC is sick. The 4+Inv. must stay.

I also came up with a solution for the flight belt and Phase field issue. How about we keep both but only allow the Fast Attack squad with the troop leader the use of the flight belts. Others have to use the phase fields.

The list as is seems balanced. The Black Templars killed every harlie that I had. Our list is not too powerfull. I will test against tyranids tomorrow. I will have more updates then.

I look forward to seeing your list on the army biulder software soon.

Great List!!!
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: hellstrome on July 24, 2003, 07:11:21 PM
Wow this one was tough.

The Tyranids won through high numbers but the Great Harlequin killed the Hive Tyrant with his power sword.

This battle was 2000 pts.

Ok here goes,..........

 We played a cleanse mission.  The Great Harlequin had the knowledge of the Masque of Dark Vail. The Shadow seer used Impetuousness of Youth which by the way was very usefull. Then thier were two squads of harlies. A Solitaire, 3 death jesters, and squad of jet bikes, 1 venom, and 1 wraith Lord.

The Nids went first.  The biovore fired several spores accross the planets surface to slow our advance. through the dark Vail we opend a portal 24" away from the houmorgant squad. This squad had 20 gants in it. We moved 20" on foot in turn 2. Harle Squad #1 moved 6" in the movement phase. Then the Impetuousness of youth allowed for an extra d6 roll. Wow I rolled a 6. We moved 6" more. Then the fleet of foot on two d6 moved us in close combat range. I rolled a 4. We moved 4" more.  We were only 8" inches away from the gants. squad #2 took up flanking positions as the jetbikes opened fire on the gants to weaken them.  In the next turn though, the gants assaulted squad #1 after shooting two harlies. But to no avail. The gant ran into an ambush. The 4+inv saves held up. When the harlies attacked back 8 harlies left after shooting. The 8 harlies killed a whaping 12 gants. In the next harle turn, the solitaire fired his fusion gun wounding a warrior and then assaulted and killed it with a 6 roll with a harlequins kiss.

close Combat went well. The problem was templates weapons and  jet bikes holo fields not being affective. The bikes were killed really quickly.  Again, this game went smooth.  although we were serverely outnumbered the armies seemed to be even. Actully with the Zoanthropes providing a special save for the gants and others made them really difficult to kill.

Again great list. It played well. I have more that i will post regarding rules confusions soon.

 



Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 24, 2003, 07:18:10 PM
Thank you for your input. Seems like you have made a perfectly sound list, and played well, and still gotten beaten. This proves, thankfully, that the list is not horribly overpowered.
Looking forward to your further comments.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 24, 2003, 10:15:35 PM
Quote
My Super-Wyche Warlock Apprentices will crush you with 5 Plasma Pistols, 5 Power Weapons, and rerolling misses.  See above for details on their power!
I think that, in all farness, you should include the point-cost for that, InfinityCircuit. It would be pretty indimidatingly high, wouldn't you say?

The point of that is to make people interested in the Harlequins.  If they look through the list for them then they might be inspired to try it.  If I give all the benefits of them along with the cons they will think, oh look Harlies get Terminators no need to check them out, probably itsa boring list.

hellstrome that list is identical to the one I have owned for most of life playing Harlies... :o

Another thing you can use to prevent that Veil problem is to place it on the other side of a vehicle like a Leman Russ.  Usually enough firepower will come in first turn to crush it, and you will have an automatic barrier to stop yourself from that problem.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: hellstrome on July 25, 2003, 08:00:23 AM
Thanks for the advice.

I will try that. What models would we use to create the shadowseer's familiars? Rasmus,......... when do you think that the list will be ready to submit to GW and Army Builder?

I will play one more game against the Blood Angels to really test the list. Or maybe against the World Eaters. Talk to you guys soon.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 25, 2003, 08:32:38 AM
The original models for the Familiars were Epic-size warwalkers with an eagle-head from a bannerpole I think. It was in CJ 17.
However, as very few would recall this any bird-like thing would do, I think. Maybe Warmaster wareagles would do...
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 25, 2003, 09:34:59 AM
I recommend getting the cheapest blister of Warmaster Elves or Wareagles as Rasmus said, then cut them apart, and you can have them  on his base just like the Greater Daemon of Nurgle.

Against World Eaters, I have a hint on strategy that  I have learned.  Take a sacrificial squad of Guardians.  By advancing down the center you can use Blood Frenzy to have them collapse their formation, making them easy pickings.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: hellstrome on July 25, 2003, 07:20:34 PM
For starters, I think that we need to really push hard to get your revised list to GW and to Army builder. You have my support 100%. I have a strong passion for the Harlies. Is my Favorite army. I feel that the CJ #39 was a little incomplete. How ever, I have never seen Cj #50.

As for the revised list, I think that the special rules are great.

How ever, I have one major argument concerning the ways that the Harlies were in the past.
1) Harlequins are with out a dout more lethal the DE Wyches easily. All of them. I also understand that they wear no armor. But Harlies are mystical in a sense and very agile. Able to vanish and flip at will. How is it that a cheesy space marine can swing is bolter or even worse, a guardsmen can swing his las pistol and hit a myjestic harle with it and kill him dead? with no save. We may as well be toughness 1. That is rediculus. Ludicris!!!! Wyches are not faster then harlies. Even if they were, their are not wearing a suit that can skrew with your vision. You have to just visualise it. To face even one harlie means that flashes of extreamly bright lights are swirling around him and the enemy. You can't see him because you are blinded. Its worse then a car shining its bright lights in your face. If its a night fight, it's even worse. We deserve a 4+ inv. save or all enemy's hit on 6's unless they have some special garggles to improve vision. I mean the enemy is literally fighting blind. You mean to tell me that you can save against a kiss and i can't save against a knot on the shoulder with a little las pistal hit.  I think that it is very unfair. That is my only issue with the CJ#39. Rasmus your rules are great.

Any Idea when you will submit them to GW?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Indro Tyr on July 25, 2003, 08:53:26 PM
Hellstrome isn't that far off. I agree with him perfectly, except 6's to hit WAY favors low WS troops, such as Orks and Guard. Granted the Holo-suit already halves opponent's Weapon Skills I also think they should have something more. Don't be afraid to make them worth their points!

The only problem with this is people may and will think they are over-powered. If any of you have seen some of my last posts on this thread, it was that Harlequins really don't kill their point's worth unless they have special weapons. Well perhaps instead of special weapons make them more slippery.

Colonel Shaeffer, a special character in the Imperial Guard, has a special rule called "Master of Combat" or something like that. It means opponents must subtract 1 from their dice rolls to hit him. Why not give that to Harlequins? Keep the Holo-suit rules for shooting the same, because Harlequins should not be solid against shooting. I'm sorry that I cannot check at the moment, but Rasmus's list kept the shooting rules for Holo-suits the same? If so, then that is perfect.

Because from far away the suit will not be as effective as the bright lights do not fill the enemy's entire L.O.S. so as the Harlequins get closer the suits get better, thus making them 4++ in CC. Also 4+ Cover is good for ranged attacks because clumsy swings are much more able to be dodged than bolter rounds!

So in my little combination of mine and hellstrome's ideas we should make the Harlequins very slippery in CC but easily smacked down in ranged combat.

Oh, and also, has the issue of grenades affecting Holo-suits been addressed yet? I understand Frag/Plasma grenades affect PHYSICAL cover, forcing the enemy to abandon their dug in position. Why would that affect Holo-suits? It's not like they'd run away from nowhere and then come back to fight. If that was the case grenades should work against troops not in cover, defeating the purpose of defended obstacles!

So to balance the issue of normal Harlequins not doing so hot perhaps make them harder to hit in CC. Remember that a 25 point model should kill 25 points of enemies when used correctly on average. I'd compare them to Grey Knights again, but no one wants to hear me go on and on about that issue again.  :-X

But personally "Masters of Close Combat" sounds pretty good to me, not too much of a change but useful and fluffy...  ;D
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 25, 2003, 09:39:57 PM
Why do we need to be better?  Master of Combat will mean that we will dominate.  We already kill Grey Knights in combat against each other.  We do perfectly well.  I think taht that is making us overpowered by an extreme amount.

I'm glad you support this Hellstrome!
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: TheMightyPikachu on July 25, 2003, 10:09:10 PM
maybe harlequins shouldn't count as always being in cover when assaulted

they already have high initiative
it's kind of annoying to have some i2 orks toss some grenades and hit in the same speed
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 26, 2003, 03:48:53 AM
Quote
Oh, and also, has the issue of grenades affecting Holo-suits been addressed yet? I understand Frag/Plasma grenades affect PHYSICAL cover, forcing the enemy to abandon their dug in position. Why would that affect Holo-suits? It's not like they'd run away from nowhere and then come back to fight. If that was the case grenades should work against troops not in cover, defeating the purpose of defended obstacles!
 Frag and Plasma-greandes affect Harlequins normally. Without such, and with the "no cover, we have high I"-thought of TMP there would remove the element of getting the Harlequins to charge rather than to be charged. If we make the Harlequins able to sustain charges from opponents further, such as making them harder to hit, or removing the possibility of low-I troops striking simultaneously with frags, then we are overpowering the Harlequins to a great extent. This will ensure that we would win using them, and at the same time that noone would play against us, and that GW would never touch it.

I will look this over a few more times today and tomorrow, and get it posted to various places Monday, if all goes well.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 26, 2003, 10:03:14 AM
Hopefully today I will get to playtest your 1500 point list,  I agree that changing anythign at this point will definetly make us overpowered.

19 PAGE WOW!  I'm still so impressed we haven't lost interest.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: hellstrome on July 26, 2003, 10:37:11 AM
Yes,


I think that the list is in good shape. We should be ready to submit it to GW. One thing though, we should look over it once more to check for grammatical errors, wording, ect.

good luck,
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 26, 2003, 03:22:17 PM
I do believe that it has been nearly nitpicked to the extent required.  I have not been able to play today, which is unfortunate.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 26, 2003, 05:00:18 PM
Hellstrome, and everyone else, please, if you find any grammatical errors, typos or other things, please PM me about it and I can make final adjustments.


Oh yeah, if GW decides to drop the Harlequins fully I will endeavor to spread this revision as the underground-official version of the list for 4th ed.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: hellstrome on July 26, 2003, 06:16:59 PM
Agreed!

I will support that 100%. Anything I can do to help out, just let me know.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 26, 2003, 07:17:55 PM
Hellstrome, and everyone else, please, if you find any grammatical errors, typos or other things, please PM me about it and I can make final adjustments.


Oh yeah, if GW decides to drop the Harlequins fully I will endeavor to spread this revision as the underground-official version of the list for 4th ed.

I completely agree.  Now something I actually want to see in this list some time if we do it as non-official is a SLANN.  They seem like the perfect allies, and,well, I just want to use that new Lord Kroak model.  This is of course fantasy, but one can dream can they not? :o

After Rasmus sends it in what we could do is right articles/fluff stuff and submit it to the same space using his ruleset.  That will show that it is in actuallity not just a single-man effort.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: hellstrome on July 26, 2003, 08:32:03 PM
agreed!

I will write often! It must be a group effort. We can and will do this.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Silent_Incubi on July 26, 2003, 10:56:11 PM
 ;D I'd be happy to right up on some fluff for Harlequins, and their affairs with other races. Just say when and I'll get started.  :)
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Von Lazuli on July 27, 2003, 03:54:45 AM
;D I'd be happy to right up on some fluff for Harlequins, and their affairs with other races. Just say when and I'll get started.  :)

NOW!!!

And then send it to Rasmus so he can read over it and potentially use it. (under your name of course...)
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 27, 2003, 06:32:30 AM
Agreed. Write right now, and if you want you can send it to me for consideration, otherwise just submit it to GW and/or Fanatic (addy in "Help save the Harlequins"-lin kin my signature).
Get going! Go Go Go!
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: hellstrome on July 27, 2003, 09:54:42 AM
Something interesting. How about a squad of harlequin prospects from (CWE or DE). Not share if mimes are ment to be prospects but it would be interesting to see future prospect harlies who have not yet taken the ritual yet as a part of the masque. Rasmus and others, what do you think? How would prospect rules differ? Would they be allow to where the harlequins colors yet? ECT.  I hope that  this is not off the subject. Could this be added to the current list? Just an idea.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 27, 2003, 10:36:54 AM
I think the Mimes are the intiates, and if you are further removes you are an Eldar Ally. I have a hard time seeing a middle-ground between the two. Please elaborate.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 27, 2003, 10:56:02 AM
I will hopefully write a piece of fluff, when I get time, about a battle incorporating a list that is of your ruleset, and  then with an explanation of the list and why it opens up new possibilites for the Harlequins.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: hellstrome on July 27, 2003, 10:58:01 AM
Say for example, after visiting commorraugh some lone warriors are inquiring about what it takes to be a Harlequin, some so,............. they become interested in saveing their race and wish to join the masque as a full member not just an ally. Where would the prospects be placed? Obviously they would have to be retrained, reclothed (maybe). Or are you saying that they would be placed in the mime ranks. Just something I thought would be interesting. For example Rasmus, if you were a Great Harlequin, and some DE Warriors wanted to join your masque, how would yu intergrate them into your band?

Cool thought?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 27, 2003, 11:00:46 AM
I think they would be treated as "Eldar Allies" until they had proven their sincerity, and then be trained as Mimes before they can take the Ritual Trials to become Harlequin of the Masque.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: hellstrome on July 27, 2003, 11:04:31 AM
cool
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 27, 2003, 11:07:50 AM
I completely agree.  However, I feel that there would be an interum between getting to fight and joining up when they learn the principles of the Harlequins.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 27, 2003, 11:20:10 AM
I doubt that time would be spent fighting though. They would be locked with a Warlock adept drilling their minds with spikes of light and thought. Possibly even in a location like the Library. No need to storm out and fight then.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 27, 2003, 11:25:14 AM
My point was that we HAVE to say they fight to fit with the fluff...
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 27, 2003, 11:28:37 AM
I will enter a line to that effect.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 27, 2003, 11:33:28 AM
Great.  Maybe someone should write a piece of  fluff about an old Shadowseer who is so happy they are phasing back in the good ole flight belts and why he likes them so much.  Any ideas on how viable this is?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 28, 2003, 02:01:57 AM
I got this letter from a "concerned citizen" about the addition on a new Troupe-choice, in this case the Jugglers, which have been brought up before. I have gotten several letter like this, and thought I would tell you all my same response to them all.

Quote
Jugglers have been brought up before, but they are not added to the list for two important reasons.

1. They are not in line with the current fluff, and since we have been working within the fluff, trying to come across as sticking to topic, so to speak. The Harlequins are after all tragic storytellers, not roaming circusartists.

2. We are not adding any "new" units except the VDR Mockingbird to the list. All the units presently in the list are "old" or revised from old lists. The Jugglers would be a complete break from that as they have never ever appeared anywhere ever in any fluff or list.

This is why they are not included.

Letts to GW go into the mail today. All 20 pages of it. Let's just hope they notice.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Von Lazuli on July 28, 2003, 04:48:21 AM
Letts to GW go into the mail today. All 20 pages of it. Let's just hope they notice.

Yey! The fruits of your labour are finally going to be realised. *crosses fingers* lets just hope they nortice....

Anyway, tell us if you get a reply.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 28, 2003, 05:09:52 AM
I sure will. The chances are pretty slim. I mean, GW gets hundreds of these things every week, so why should ours make a difference, huh? The point is that we are trying to get their attention, simply. If our list contributes to a single meeting where one guy says "What about the Harlequins?" it is worth time, effort and money I have invested into this.
Our one advantage apart from the fact that this list is tested thouroughly unlike many others, is the fact that my name is on it, and I have been published before. It might get someones attention.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Dread on July 28, 2003, 05:57:38 AM
I think that a good upgrade to characters and unit leaders would be the "acrobatic skill" like the banshees have. Face it, harlis are acrobats and should benefit from this. What do you all think.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 28, 2003, 10:10:06 AM
I sure will. The chances are pretty slim. I mean, GW gets hundreds of these things every week, so why should ours make a difference, huh? The point is that we are trying to get their attention, simply. If our list contributes to a single meeting where one guy says "What about the Harlequins?" it is worth time, effort and money I have invested into this.
Our one advantage apart from the fact that this list is tested thouroughly unlike many others, is the fact that my name is on it, and I have been published before. It might get someones attention.

How have you invested money in  this?  Converting the models?  I'm sure that Fanatic will care if you send it to them, after all they  mangled both of your letters to heck.

I think its too late baby now, its too late for that Dread (Think Carole King, man I feel OLD)
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 28, 2003, 12:05:19 PM
How have you invested money in  this?  Converting the models?  I'm sure that Fanatic will care if you send it to them, after all they  mangled both of your letters to heck.
 I just got a lot of money into working this (it takes time) and then making copies upon copies to send out costs money too.
  Conversions aren't needed yet. I have models enough.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 28, 2003, 10:06:15 PM
How have you invested money in  this?  Converting the models?  I'm sure that Fanatic will care if you send it to them, after all they  mangled both of your letters to heck.
 I just got a lot of money into working this (it takes time) and then making copies upon copies to send out costs money too.
  Conversions aren't needed yet. I have models enough.

That would make sense, after all, "time is galleons"...

I thought you meant you had to pay people to let you use it or had to pay money for copyright.... :-[
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 29, 2003, 02:50:38 AM
Actually, as long there are no quotes from the Citadel Jounral entries we are not opposing GW copyright in any serious way. They can take offence at our use of their word "Harlequin" or the statlines, but it is not worth paying for. Not that GW would let me.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 29, 2003, 08:10:12 AM
I will try to make a decent pdf out of this list and place it instead of the html currently on file. This will allow easier printing/showing to friends, and also be easier to read. Can't promise today, but this week, certainly.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 29, 2003, 10:12:14 AM
Good point, I just wasn't sure so many crazy schemes shot through my head.

I'm glad that we will get a PDF, it will make it much easier to spread around, thank you!

BTW, does anyone know if Von Lazuli is making progress on the Army Builder file?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: hellstrome on July 29, 2003, 06:32:42 PM
Yeah thats a good question. I wondered the same thing. Hopefully it will be ready soon. I will be using the revised rules for now own. I don't know about you guys. ;D
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 29, 2003, 10:08:34 PM
Yeah thats a good question. I wondered the same thing. Hopefully it will be ready soon. I will be using the revised rules for now own. I don't know about you guys. ;D

I've been using them since page two, I think... ::)

I'm really impressed with this I think we've gotten farther than the Exodite on and this is really quality material.
Title: Play Testing
Post by: Grimm on July 30, 2003, 12:36:06 AM
Played a 1500 point game over the weekend with the new list vs. a Death Guard army. We played Dawn Assault and we used to new assault rules. I took the Masque of the Dark Veil to try it out. It was a bit touch and go with my opponents two rhinos. I was very concerned about having my webway blocked. As it turned out, I had rolled well and my entire army was on the board by turn 2.  ;D

The game only lasted 4 turns and Chaos was down to 4 models. I think I had 10 or 11. Very brutal. Highlight of the game was the Great Unclean One getting "kissed" w/ a 6 to wound in its first round of combat!

I think play balance is pretty close to perfect right now. The charge bonus and save in HtH really bring them up to their cost now.

The Mockingbird was a disappointment. It only got one shot before it died and it really didn't do anything. I will have to keep working on that one.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 30, 2003, 04:07:44 AM
I am glad you had a good game and that you enjoyed the list.
The Mockingbird, I admit, takes some getting used to, but it is among the very few things that deals with the Landraider and Monolith, which is why it is so nice to keep around.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 31, 2003, 09:49:39 AM
Unfortunately, like most things with a Shadow Weaver the Mocking bird is more effective against those with low saves.

That sounds like agreat game!  I'd recommend actually going with Masque of the Red Death as the ability to Withdraw with your entire army can be VERY nice....
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on August 1, 2003, 04:36:04 AM
I have now created a PDF-document out of all this. It is avaialbe for download here (http://www.eldaronline.com/rasmus/wh/e_rev.pdf).
Do enjoy, and let's hope it gets the attention of GW as well. For now, though, I think it can serve us well, no matter what GW decides. When they do decide, however, we can act accordingly.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on August 1, 2003, 09:42:36 AM
Looks great Rasmus, thank you!  I just would like to suggest you change the lime green, it hurts the eyes and detracts from the document.  Maybe you could do it in faded color across the front like Army Builder demo, but its fine right now.

This is my last post for 72 hours (going to San Diego) but I'll be BACK!
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on August 1, 2003, 09:51:14 AM
If you print it using a b/w printer it turns out a lovely grey, and since this is supposed to be printed rather than read online, it will stay gree until the next update.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: cdham on August 1, 2003, 11:05:38 AM
that looks good, I printed out the other one but thanks anyway
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Greater Solitaire on August 2, 2003, 09:48:41 PM
Yay, I rejoice, I have printed the Codex, the text ooks good (it looked bad on the net).  And this Codex is rockin'!
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Greater Solitaire on August 2, 2003, 09:50:14 PM
Oh yeah, heck yes you should submit it!
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on August 4, 2003, 10:30:48 AM
You COULD edit your post you know... >:(

Yes, that works Rasmus I agree thank you for pointing that out... :-\
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Evil Ninja on August 4, 2003, 10:18:14 PM
DUDE THIS IS ONE AWSOME REMAKE! All i can say! Wow.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on August 4, 2003, 10:22:03 PM
I completely agree.

What do you guys think about adding the DJ warwalker mentioned in the other post?  It would be pretty cool but might upset the balance.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rilmanqualë on August 5, 2003, 12:24:21 AM
Its a great idea, but it does seem a bit unfair.  Twin linked Shreikers?!  egad...

Rils
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Von Lazuli on August 5, 2003, 08:54:53 AM
Acctually I have made a fair amount of progress with the AB file. Just the Eldar Allies thing has got me very annoyed. It is just so hard to write!
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on August 5, 2003, 09:39:46 AM
Great Von!  I'd love to look at it, as Rasmus said, to check for bugs.  I'm really impressed that you continue to go along with this.

P.S. We broke the record!  This topic has the most posts in the entire forum!  :D
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: hellstrome on August 5, 2003, 05:22:48 PM
This is great news guys. I am really excited about the AB file. I can't wait to see it and have it in hand. This is great. Can't wait until its finished. Rasmus has done a great job with the revision. I have played a couple more games with it now so i do  have another question the Masque of the Dark Vail. Does this mean the all Harlequin units will be using the portal. Even vehicles Wraithlords, ect?Also, does coming through the portal count as Movement, or can we move in the same turn that we arrive like bloodletters and blood thirster. How close can the portal be to an enemy model.  As for the warlocks, would we use the Eldar warlock models? Where can i find models to convert into familiars for my shadowseer?

I look forward to finally having the AB file for download soon.

Thanks guys
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on August 6, 2003, 09:59:13 AM
I can't answer the Veil questions, but for conversion:

For Warlock Models: I used 2 of my Warlocks, two of the new Farseers with the horns cut off and no Spear, instead a Kiss.  I also used my OOP Farseer that looks so sweet as one.  Another idea is to just buy the Seer Council.

For Familiars: A couple options.  I recommend finding the cheapest Warmaster guys with the least amount of chainmail and with a bit of conversion putting them on the base like Nurglings on Nurgling Infestation.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Grimm on August 6, 2003, 11:22:31 AM
Dark Veil - The way I read and play it -  you enter from the portal as reserves and not deep strike. As reserves, you get your full move the turn you arrive. Everything in the army comes through it. When you enter, you must be more than 1" away from any enemy models. A rhino parked on your portal could ruin your whole day!  ::)
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on August 7, 2003, 10:14:16 AM
Very true.  However if there is a Rhino parked then that means that you should move it 2d6 instead of coming in.  You could have it open over very difficult terrain FE.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Gue'vesa'ui on August 8, 2003, 08:28:40 AM
wow man thats a great list.  I plan on reading the other harle stuff!
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Harliquin on August 8, 2003, 08:42:21 PM
Hey rasmus.
Your description of mime disruption states that an army with at least one squad of mimes and a master mime may use the disruption table.  Mimes are listed as a 0-1 choice in CJ 44.  In your list how many squads of mimes may I take per army?

Also for vehicles like vyper jetbikes and ork buggies how many can we take.  Is it just one vehicle or can we have a squadron of the smaller vehicles that have a base cost of 50pts or less?

Ok I thought of something else.  I know it was meant to read like this but with a flight belt a solitaire can move 12", fleet of foot D6 inches, and assault 12".  Is this right?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on August 9, 2003, 11:30:23 AM
Re: Flight Belt I believe that is the way it is, you may not be able to FoF though I'd need to check.

You can definetly take squadrons, it is meant to be one choice.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on August 10, 2003, 03:39:45 AM
Acctually I have made a fair amount of progress with the AB file. Just the Eldar Allies thing has got me very annoyed. It is just so hard to write!
  We are so glad to hear it! I hope you will crack the problem and get all of it working!

I have played a couple more games with it now so i do  have another question the Masque of the Dark Vail. Does this mean the all Harlequin units will be using the portal. Even vehicles Wraithlords, ect?Also, does coming through the portal count as Movement, or can we move in the same turn that we arrive like bloodletters and blood thirster. How close can the portal be to an enemy model.
  The portal allows you to bring in units in reserve in from anywhere. They move from the template, and, as stated, if a rhino is parked on it you are in trouble. That is why you can move it.
   And yes, you can, as the wording is right now, move anything from it. Looted vehicles should be on the "no-webway"-list, and I will include this. Thank you for pointing it out.

Quote
Where can i find models to convert into familiars for my shadowseer?
  Epic warwalkers with Warmaster Great eagle heads should work. I am getting mine shortly.

What do you guys think about adding the DJ warwalker mentioned in the other post?  It would be pretty cool but might upset the balance.
  I think that since we are introducing "nothing new" in the list it might be unnessecary. They can be made in the VDR-rules, can they not? This means that you can just post how you made them, and anyone who wants to model it can play it!

Your description of mime disruption states that an army with at least one squad of mimes and a master mime may use the disruption table.  Mimes are listed as a 0-1 choice in CJ 44.  In your list how many squads of mimes may I take per army?
  You can take as many Mime-squads as you like. Perhaps this is unclear, but I don't think so.


Quote
Also for vehicles like vyper jetbikes and ork buggies how many can we take.  Is it just one vehicle or can we have a squadron of the smaller vehicles that have a base cost of 50pts or less?
  Good question. I have not put in words to any effect about this, and this is where that lead. Thank you for pointing it out. They are supposed to be single vehicles, I am pretty sure. I will check with my playtesters and see.

Quote
Ok I thought of something else.  I know it was meant to read like this but with a flight belt a solitaire can move 12", fleet of foot D6 inches, and assault 12".  Is this right?
  It is. Scary huh?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: hellstrome on August 11, 2003, 07:58:54 AM
One more question Rasmus.

I played a battle against Catachens in a jungle fight. The entire world was all jungle. Would this improve the harle's cover save against shooting by +1 or would it remain the same?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on August 11, 2003, 08:11:10 AM
Unless you move into 3+ cover (there is no such cover, as I am aware of) you still retain your 4+ cover.

Updated pdf uploaded.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Von Lazuli on August 20, 2003, 03:34:05 AM
I beleive I have discovered a conflict...  A Harlequin with a Flight belt moves as if equipped with a Jump Pack right? But what if you land in difficult terrain? The Flip belt allows you to ignore it but the jump pack rules state that on a one you die. Which is correct?

Anyway, I no this is minor and GW have had far bigger conflicts in thier codices.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on August 20, 2003, 06:22:42 AM
Nice point. I will insert a line to clarify this.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: TheMightyPikachu on August 20, 2003, 12:52:15 PM
Unless you move into 3+ cover (there is no such cover, as I am aware of) you still retain your 4+ cover.

Updated pdf uploaded.

being in a heavily fortefied building gives you a 3+, cityfight rules

btw, anything on dispersed formations in cityfight?

Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Von Lazuli on August 21, 2003, 05:00:39 AM
I have figured out how to get around the Eldar Allies problem, the only thing is i will have to write a huge amount of code for each option...
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Orion God on August 21, 2003, 06:03:54 AM
Rasmus you still fixing the list or have you alredy sended it to GW?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on August 21, 2003, 06:13:46 AM
I have sent it in, in a total of thre physical copies and three electronic ones. No reply though, and none is expected.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Orion God on August 21, 2003, 06:35:54 AM
Why do you think they wont answer?

I think the list you made looked good :)
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on August 21, 2003, 06:50:05 AM
Because they get hundres of letter every week, and posibly hundreds of codixes every month. Even though this is playtested and is a lot better than many others, we can't expect much, honestly. But we have tried, and miracles happen. So keep sending stuff in, and maybe the list gets some more attention.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: TheMightyPikachu on August 21, 2003, 10:02:53 AM
would you encourage everyone on EO to send electronic copies then?

a thousand eldar emails in one week would be an eye opener
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on August 21, 2003, 10:31:08 AM
Emails do less than actualy physical papermail. Check out the "Help save the Harlequin"-thread in my signature to learn more.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: TheMightyPikachu on August 21, 2003, 11:06:05 AM
i know that, just that it's easier to convince folks to send emails than write letters

all things strive for a state of entropy, and clicking on a mouse takes a heckofalot less effort than *ghasp
picking up a pen, writing, getting some stamps,going to the mail station etc.


though i think we should organize something like 'everyone send a letter to GW on X week' (which is pretty much what the save the harlies thread is anyways)
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on August 21, 2003, 11:16:33 AM
i know that, just that it's easier to convince folks to send emails than write letters

all things strive for a state of entropy, and clicking on a mouse takes a heckofalot less effort than *ghasp
picking up a pen, writing, getting some stamps,going to the mail station etc.
Which is exactly why a printed mailed letter means more than an email. Thank you for putting down so well.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: hellstrome on August 25, 2003, 10:05:25 PM
Any idea when the AB file will be completed and available for download?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Great_HARLIE on August 31, 2003, 11:51:59 AM
I can't download the new codex because it says that I am not autherised. Could someone tell me whats wrong please?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on September 1, 2003, 02:17:38 AM
If you are talking about the revision in post number 1 in this thread it could be because the server is under a great deal of strain at certain hours (the entire EO site is on there, as well as its forum and 40k.ca forum) and you are best to try again a bit later.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Karan Avten on September 7, 2003, 08:23:22 PM
I am a Ulthwe Veteran for many years now and I am looking to start another army.  At my local gaming store I had heard of these Harlequins that were incredible eldar were a small handfull could wipe out whole armies.  I like the sound of that so I found the Harlequins here and in the CJ's anyway I think that the revisions that all you wonderful people have come up with it are great.  But I have one question in Close Combat you guys and or gals decided that they will get a 4++ cause they are ducking, weaving, and what not to avoid being hit.  But what about the Warsythe that the Necron Pharos (spelling???) have, cause the Harlequins are dodging the attack so would they still get there 4++ saving throw. Thanks guys
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Wofen on September 7, 2003, 11:42:20 PM
I cases like that, we have to let the new army have its way, or GW might not sell as meny necrons with War Sythes, and if this hurts sales, then GW will not let it, even if it makes sense... Ok that was just a go at GW.

But What I would say, is that War Sythes are ment to phase in and out of time, or something like that,so you cant dodge something you cant see, can you :).

Wofen
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on September 8, 2003, 02:11:53 AM
Exactly. the Imperial assassin and Dark Eldar Wyches also dodge, and therefore get ain invulnerable save, but this is negated by the warscythe.
So; no, against the Necron superweapon you are still pretty much saveless. But then again, so is everyone else.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Flash_hound on September 14, 2003, 11:10:05 AM
Very good list but I am not sure people will let me use it especially my leauge that I am in....  :'( but maybe my friends will and you should post somthing in the conversion forum about the jet wings thing

EDIT:: you should post this in the suggestions part of the GW message boards I will post it in the U.S. Part if you like  ;D
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on September 14, 2003, 04:16:41 PM
Very good list but I am not sure people will let me use it especially my leauge that I am in....  :'( but maybe my friends will and you should post somthing in the conversion forum about the jet wings thing
 Jetwings? Where are there jetwings?

Quote
EDIT:: you should post this in the suggestions part of the GW message boards I will post it in the U.S. Part if you like  ;D
  Post a link to this place, and maybe they will look at it. GW won't take much notice though, but fans might. GW has been notified through submission to Chapter Approved, and to Fanatic Press. But please, go ahead, post a link to this thread.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Flash_hound on September 14, 2003, 07:16:37 PM
Very good list but I am not sure people will let me use it especially my leauge that I am in....  :'( but maybe my friends will and you should post somthing in the conversion forum about the jet wings thing
 Jetwings? Where are there jetwings?

Quote
EDIT:: you should post this in the suggestions part of the GW message boards I will post it in the U.S. Part if you like  ;D
  Post a link to this place, and maybe they will look at it. GW won't take much notice though, but fans might. GW has been notified through submission to Chapter Approved, and to Fanatic Press. But please, go ahead, post a link to this thread.

I mean flight belts sorry   :-\
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Alex of Xen on September 14, 2003, 09:26:34 PM
Quote
that,so you cant dodge something you cant see, can you .
How do you effectively use an item you cant see?  You dont.  So you either have a low WS when using Warscythe (to represent the user being extra careful) or on a to hit of a 1 they wound themslef or something.  This would be a good way to balance it (and besides, I think its only the C'tan Phaseblade that warps around, although Warsycthes still ignore Invys).  Heck how do you wound with something that warps around?  You be about to slash your opponent when it the blade warps to another dimension and passes right through the enemy doing no damagage.  

BUT, this isnt a post about Warsycthes so I guess Ill leave it at that.

Archangel Xen
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Von Lazuli on September 15, 2003, 04:17:13 AM
I am on the GW games development boards at the moment and I cant see it, so I am going to post it.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Flash_hound on September 15, 2003, 04:02:44 PM
k I hadn't posted yet because I was kicked off the computer before I came around to do it  ;D
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: kaldrin on September 16, 2003, 04:05:53 PM
Exactly. the Imperial assassin and Dark Eldar Wyches also dodge, and therefore get ain invulnerable save, but this is negated by the warscythe.
So; no, against the Necron superweapon you are still pretty much saveless. But then again, so is everyone else.

I more or less agree with the idea of an invulnerable save in CC, but I think for the multi-wound characters it should be ablative or something. Each time they get hit, it lessens their ability to dodge.

So the 4+ would drop to 5+, then to 6+...but the 4+ cover would still work against shooting at full value.

Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Flash_hound on September 16, 2003, 04:46:46 PM
I dont see your post so I will post my own post  ;D
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: happyclown181 on September 17, 2003, 09:56:26 PM
rasmus great list looking toward playing it!  Thx for the cc save we need it a lot good work.  The masques are great! Keep it comin guys. great work

happyclown
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on September 18, 2003, 02:29:23 AM
Welcome to EO/40k.ca!

And thank you for your appreciation!
If you playtest you can give feedback on things that might need changing, so we can make it even better.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!:PDF?
Post by: Farseer Khandahu on September 25, 2003, 03:55:04 PM
I downloaded the revision, but it won't work cause I don't have a program that can read pdf files. Could someone tell me what program I need, it would be greatly appreciated!
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Alex of Xen on September 25, 2003, 08:16:11 PM
You need Adobe Acrobat Reader, the current version is 6 and can be downloaded from Adobe's website.

Say you didnt cross post this did you....?

Archangel Xen
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on October 3, 2003, 06:02:19 AM
File updated with some word-changes. Thank you for the continuing feedback.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Starwind on October 3, 2003, 02:03:05 PM
just give everything a 4+ invulnerable save against EVERY attack and the original codex is no longer broken. Simple as that.
Chuck in looted vehicles of course.

Does anyone know what happened to The Mighty Brain?
His Harlequin stuff looked really good.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on October 3, 2003, 03:51:33 PM
just give everything a 4+ invulnerable save against EVERY attack and the original codex is no longer broken. Simple as that.
Chuck in looted vehicles of course.

Does anyone know what happened to The Mighty Brain?
His Harlequin stuff looked really good.

He was chucked out for basically being a great big prick to everyone around him, as far as I know.

And a 4++ overall is just too much. It sounds too... Necronish...
Title: Comments on New Harlequin Codex
Post by: Wuestenfux on November 2, 2003, 03:10:28 AM
The new Codex is nice, but I have some comments:

1. Stormglove: A model hit by a Harlie with a SG may not
take a saving throw. This obviously means no armour
and inv. saving throw.
I find this weapon (15 pts) much too cheap.

2. Shadowseer with Misdir. and Veil of Darkness is now
more expensive than in the old Codex.

3. Warlocks: "The SS often gathers a group of students..."
This is how the story goes. Consequently, a Warlock
group should only be allowed to be included if there is
a SS in the army.

4. Warlock's Gift of Khaine: Reroll any misses in CC.
Misses in CC can only be rerolled if the model is in BtB
- I raised this problem a few weeks ago in "Rules and
Questions".
However, Harlies have Flip Belts and so can (in assault)
use full no. of attacks within 3".
How will this be resolved?

4. Mimes: Up to 2 Mimes can get Power Weapons or
Kisses. These models cost 16 or 15 pts, resp.
This seems powergaming  to me.

5. The Venom is now Fast Attack. I would find it better
when it would not fill any slot like a Rhino.

6. The Mockingbird is a non-transport tank with BS 3.
I find it much overpriced.

7. Some Eldar Allies (Wyches, Banshees) are hardly
useful in a Harlequin Army if they cannot get a transport.
Wyches are only useful in a counter-attack force or
an offensive force where they are unleashed through
the webway (Masque of the Dark Veil).
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 2, 2003, 03:48:12 AM
The new Codex is nice, but I have some comments:

1. Stormglove: A model hit by a Harlie with a SG may not
take a saving throw. This obviously means no armour
and inv. saving throw.
I find this weapon (15 pts) much too cheap.
This is the standard phrasing for powerweapons as well. It does not say it ignores invulnerables, so it doesn't. The wording can be made even clearer, but it isn't really necessary.


Quote
2. Shadowseer with Misdir. and Veil of Darkness is now
more expensive than in the old Codex.
  Yes, that's correct.

Quote
3. Warlocks: "The SS often gathers a group of students..."
This is how the story goes. Consequently, a Warlock
group should only be allowed to be included if there is
a SS in the army.
  This was not part of the old rules, and I don't see why it should be now either. Isn't the Spiritwalker inceentive enough to take the Seer?


Quote
4. Warlock's Gift of Khaine: Reroll any misses in CC.
Misses in CC can only be rerolled if the model is in BtB
- I raised this problem a few weeks ago in "Rules and
Questions".
However, Harlies have Flip Belts and so can (in assault)
use full no. of attacks within 3".
How will this be resolved?
  Where does it say that only btb-rolls may be rerolled? I have never seen anything like that.

Quote
4. Mimes: Up to 2 Mimes can get Power Weapons or
Kisses. These models cost 16 or 15 pts, resp.
This seems powergaming  to me.
  Why? A Banshee with powerweapon and better stats/rules costs the same.

Quote
5. The Venom is now Fast Attack. I would find it better
when it would not fill any slot like a Rhino.
  If you read the rules you will find that you can take it as a transport if you want to. Then it doesn't fill any slots. This is for it to operate independently.

Quote
6. The Mockingbird is a non-transport tank with BS 3.
I find it much overpriced.
It is made using the VDR. The VDR does overprice. Try it. Make a Rhino and see that you can hardly make it its usual points. A Waveserpent? Forget it...

Quote
7. Some Eldar Allies (Wyches, Banshees) are hardly
useful in a Harlequin Army if they cannot get a transport.
Wyches are only useful in a counter-attack force or
an offensive force where they are unleashed through
the webway (Masque of the Dark Veil).
  If you feel that way then you need not take them. I have used Banshees on foot throughout 2nd ed (as Waveserpents were deathtraps back then) and I can still do it today. They still serve a tactical purpose, just a different one.

Thank you for your feedback.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Indro Tyr on November 2, 2003, 10:19:06 AM
Ok, some issues of my own to be addressed.

First of all, I would have to agree with Wuestenfux on the Venom issue. I also think it should be as a Rhino, Raider, Wave Serpent, Razorback... the list goes on. Every other army in the game doesn't get a 'taxi'. Why should Harlequins be any different? If they wan't a taxi they should loot a Heavy Support vehicle with transport capabilities, simple as that.

Now to my propositions...

Eldar Allies... make them 0-2 Troupes, but do not count them towards the minimum Troupe slots, so you still need to take 2 'Harlequin' Troupe choices for your army to be legal. I borrowed this concept from the Daemonhunters army, and I firmly believe it is an idea that would fit well into the list.

Also, why can Guardians take transports but not Aspect Warriors? That is insane. Above all if one unit can get them, everyone can. Also concerning leaders, why the heck not? They are Eldar ALLIES, not Eldar OUTCASTS. I think that they should have full options to them as if they were a stand-alone unit.

Looted Vehicles and Allied Vehicle should be seperate Heavy choices, instead of this "original crew" stuff. Also give Allied Vehicles the ability to take 'homeworld' upgrades, like Crystal Targeting Matrices. Make them Heavy choices or Fast Attack in the case of Vyper SQUADS (not just one). Get rid of an Allied Raider... going back to the anti-taxi statement. It can of course still be used as a Transport option for DE squads. Do not make Allied Vehicles take up one of the Allied Eldar 0-2 slots, but still count them towards the DE-CWE tensions.

Benathai Familiars... increase their points! Ever cast The Hunt with a 24" range and pinning half a Tau army? Then the same turn cast Impetuousness of Youth to get in range of blowing apart a Tau Devilfish with an Assault 4 Fusion Pistol (and succeeding) while getting assaulted by 3 Broadsides and benefitting from +1 A and WS? Honest truth, it happened last Saturday. All of that for 85 points? Cough, cough... cheese.

Flight-Belts, crash on a 1 or not? Flip-Belts state that Harlequins ignore Difficult Terrain... I think that needs to be clarified.

Harlequin Warlocks, you need to state that a Perils of the Warp attack affects EVERY model in the unit, just like Grey Knight Terminators of the Daemonhunters.

The Mockingbird... perhaps allow it to take 1-2 more Vibro Cannons for +45 points each? This is to make it quite the earth-shattering machine. And if the opponent destroys one the effect is lessened, aka a 5 on the Glancing Hits Table destroys 1 of the 3 cannons, reducing the overall shot's strength to 5 and reducing the Pin modifier to -1. Just a thought, but I think an interesting one.

Finally, Mimes. Give Disruption to every Mime squad. Just like Alaitoc Rangers. Plus you technicly can't do it under the current rules anyway. ICs can only join squads in the Movement Phase. So Mimes cannot be 'lead' by a Master at the beginning of the battle, making Disruption virtually impossible.

Just some thoughts...





 

 

 
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 2, 2003, 01:18:56 PM
First of all, I would have to agree with Wuestenfux on the Venom issue. I also think it should be as a Rhino, Raider, Wave Serpent, Razorback... the list goes on. Every other army in the game doesn't get a 'taxi'. Why should Harlequins be any different? If they wan't a taxi they should loot a Heavy Support vehicle with transport capabilities, simple as that.
I honestly don't know why everyon is on about the Venom. I have never lost a single model from using it, and never lost the thing once in dozens of games. It is very nice, if you use it right. If you use it like you do a Waveserpent, it is a coffin waiting to hold your Harlequins forever.
   What do yu sugggest we do about it?


Quote
Eldar Allies... make them 0-2 Troupes, but do not count them towards the minimum Troupe slots, so you still need to take 2 'Harlequin' Troupe choices for your army to be legal. I borrowed this concept from the Daemonhunters army, and I firmly believe it is an idea that would fit well into the list.
  Then why move them to troops? I do understand the need for more Elites, but it is all a matter of choice. The addition of Eldar Allies is an extra, just like the Master Mime, so it comes down to choice.

Quote
Also, why can Guardians take transports but not Aspect Warriors? That is insane. Above all if one unit can get them, everyone can. Also concerning leaders, why the heck not? They are Eldar ALLIES, not Eldar OUTCASTS. I think that they should have full options to them as if they were a stand-alone unit.
  That's a simple one. During playtesting it was quite clear that a Waveserpent with 10 Banshees along with the Harlequins was overdoing it. The same applied to most other aspects.
   The leaders were removed because some are allowed wargear that can serious unbalance (even unhinge) the Harlequin list, and we wanted the list playable, not over-powered.

Quote
Looted Vehicles and Allied Vehicle should be seperate Heavy choices, instead of this "original crew" stuff.
  Another question of balance. Then you could have too many looted vehicles, sort of. They are also supposed to be "extras". If you want Falcons; play Craftworlders, essentially.

Quote
Also give Allied Vehicles the ability to take 'homeworld' upgrades, like Crystal Targeting Matrices.
Make them Heavy choices or Fast Attack in the case of Vyper SQUADS (not just one).
  Another two more examples where playtesting proved this to be too much.    

Quote
Get rid of an Allied Raider... going back to the anti-taxi statement. It can of course still be used as a Transport option for DE squads.
  Why? Just because it can ferry things back and forth? It can only ferry DEs though, not Harlequins.

Quote
Do not make Allied Vehicles take up one of the Allied Eldar 0-2 slots, but still count them towards the DE-CWE tensions.
  Then you would just pay to increase BS of the vehicle, and this is also a tad overpowering.

Quote
Benathai Familiars... increase their points! Ever cast The Hunt with a 24" range and pinning half a Tau army? Then the same turn cast Impetuousness of Youth to get in range of blowing apart a Tau Devilfish with an Assault 4 Fusion Pistol (and succeeding) while getting assaulted by 3 Broadsides and benefitting from +1 A and WS? Honest truth, it happened last Saturday. All of that for 85 points? Cough, cough... cheese.
  Ok. What would you say the "proper" cost would be then?

Quote
Flight-Belts, crash on a 1 or not? Flip-Belts state that Harlequins ignore Difficult Terrain... I think that needs to be clarified.
  If you read the Flight-belt entry in the revision you will find that it is.

Quote
Harlequin Warlocks, you need to state that a Perils of the Warp attack affects EVERY model in the unit, just like Grey Knight Terminators of the Daemonhunters.
 I will see to it that this is included in the next update.

Quote
The Mockingbird... perhaps allow it to take 1-2 more Vibro Cannons for +45 points each? This is to make it quite the earth-shattering machine. And if the opponent destroys one the effect is lessened, aka a 5 on the Glancing Hits Table destroys 1 of the 3 cannons, reducing the overall shot's strength to 5 and reducing the Pin modifier to -1. Just a thought, but I think an interesting one.
  Have you playtested that idea? Does it work? What do the opponents say?

Quote
Finally, Mimes. Give Disruption to every Mime squad. Just like Alaitoc Rangers. Plus you technicly can't do it under the current rules anyway. ICs can only join squads in the Movement Phase. So Mimes cannot be 'lead' by a Master at the beginning of the battle, making Disruption virtually impossible.
  I will clarify that as well.

Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on November 2, 2003, 01:40:07 PM
just give everything a 4+ invulnerable save against EVERY attack and the original codex is no longer broken. Simple as that.
Chuck in looted vehicles of course.

Does anyone know what happened to The Mighty Brain?
His Harlequin stuff looked really good.

He was chucked out for basically being a great big prick to everyone around him, as far as I know.

And a 4++ overall is just too much. It sounds too... Necronish...

Actually he stated that he left in a semi-official announcement.  He then went off to become mod of another board I believe.

For those of you that remember, 65 points was the original Benathai cost.  I think that 85 is reasonable due to the fact that its still be loaded onto ONE character, which can then still be killed.  We are not trying to make this into an RPG like Inquisitor with super-powered characters, we just one some that can turn the tides of combats.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Indro Tyr on November 2, 2003, 08:00:14 PM
Ok, firstly...

I didn't say get rid of the Venom nor make it any more resilient. I find it to work great. My point was to remove it as a Fast Attack choice, since almost all 'taxi' vehicles (ones not attached to a single squad) are original, as in can only be bought as a FA, HS choice. Keep it as strictly a Transport option and that'd be fine.

As for the Flight-Belt issue, I did not catch that and do not have my Codex on-hand to verify it, maybe I've followed the wrong link?

I screwed up on my Allied Raider comment, I mean't Looted Raider. The same reason for that is why I said to make Venoms Transport-only. Or if not I'd allow Harlequins to loot Wave Serpents also. Yes it would be powerful but remember you can only have one in an army and it'd be sure to be a firepower magnet, not to mention that models inside are killed on a 4+ rather than a 6.

As far as the Mockingbird. In hindsight in order to balance out my idea it would have to be a larger vehicle, and so would have AV 12, 12, 10 or 11, 11, 10. Reason being is it would be almost impossible to fit 3 Vibro Cannons on a Vyper chassis. However, the Falcon model (the AV 12 idea) would do or the Ravager (AV 11) with it's 3 turrets would make for excellent choices of the base-model to use when converting it. The base point cost would have to also increase with the addtion of armour. I talked about it with a fellow Eldar player and he loved the idea, however I have not used it against anyone yet. I'll playtest it on 3 different chassis (Vyper, Falcon, and Ravager) and let you all know how it ends up.

In summary of all my other statements, simplify things drasticly then. Harlequins count as Elites in other armies, no restrictions and they get all options. I'd say just reverse the process and allow Eldar OR Dark Eldar units/vehicles to do the same thing in the Harlequins army. If it is an issue of balance consider the other side of the story. An Iyanden army with a unit of Harlequin Jetbikes, Alaitoc with the Harlequin Wraithlord, Saim Hann with 9 Death Jesters, or any other combination can be as lethal, so why not allow Harlequin to reap the same benefits. It'd also make the whole system MUCH more simpler.

Those are my thoughts.  ;D
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Wuestenfux on November 3, 2003, 02:28:55 AM
My question in the mentioned thread was whether
misses to hit can be rerolled under any circumstances
provided the Wyches got the combat drug of 'Reroll'.
The answer of the Moderator was YES if and only if
the Wych is in BtB, i.e.,  NO otherwise.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 3, 2003, 10:57:56 AM
Actually he stated that he left in a semi-official announcement.  He then went off to become mod of another board I believe.
 He was banned. Crept back, was tossed again, came back, and now seems gone again.


As for the Flight-Belt issue, I did not catch that and do not have my Codex on-hand to verify it, maybe I've followed the wrong link?
  No, but you have an older update. The one currently on download on page one of this thread has a clarification.

Quote
I screwed up on my Allied Raider comment, I mean't Looted Raider. The same reason for that is why I said to make Venoms Transport-only. Or if not I'd allow Harlequins to loot Wave Serpents also. Yes it would be powerful but remember you can only have one in an army and it'd be sure to be a firepower magnet, not to mention that models inside are killed on a 4+ rather than a 6.
  Then something would have to put in place which would allow the Harlequins to ride in the thing, which they can not now. Only open-topped vehicles (like the Raider) would allow Harlequin pasangers. A faulty wording on my part. I will see to it.

Quote
As far as the Mockingbird. In hindsight in order to balance out my idea it would have to be a larger vehicle, and so would have AV 12, 12, 10 or 11, 11, 10. Reason being is it would be almost impossible to fit 3 Vibro Cannons on a Vyper chassis. However, the Falcon model (the AV 12 idea) would do or the Ravager (AV 11) with it's 3 turrets would make for excellent choices of the base-model to use when converting it. The base point cost would have to also increase with the addtion of armour. I talked about it with a fellow Eldar player and he loved the idea, however I have not used it against anyone yet. I'll playtest it on 3 different chassis (Vyper, Falcon, and Ravager) and let you all know how it ends up.
  You can use the VDR any way you like. The Mockingbird was just Wes' idea of one such application.

Quote
In summary of all my other statements, simplify things drasticly then. Harlequins count as Elites in other armies, no restrictions and they get all options. I'd say just reverse the process and allow Eldar OR Dark Eldar units/vehicles to do the same thing in the Harlequins army. If it is an issue of balance consider the other side of the story. An Iyanden army with a unit of Harlequin Jetbikes, Alaitoc with the Harlequin Wraithlord, Saim Hann with 9 Death Jesters, or any other combination can be as lethal, so why not allow Harlequin to reap the same benefits. It'd also make the whole system MUCH more simpler.
  And make everyone not want to play the Harlequins. Is this what we want? Aren't the Harlequins powerful enough? The addition of the Allies is, as stated previously, an extra, not something that should unhinge the entire army.

My question in the mentioned thread was whether
misses to hit can be rerolled under any circumstances
provided the Wyches got the combat drug of 'Reroll'.
The answer of the Moderator was YES if and only if
the Wych is in BtB, i.e.,  NO otherwise.
   I wonder where they found that. Did you get a page-reference for that?
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Harliquin on November 4, 2003, 12:38:00 PM
Rasmus I think your list is great just the way it is.  It's smooth, characterfull, and fast just the way the harlequins should be.  After starting warmachine this is only 40K army I still love to play and it's because of their story and your army list.

Way to go Rasmus! :)

Sorry if I over did it but with all the flak flying about venoms and brain I thought you might need a pat on the back.  My comments are honest though.  I'd play GW games more if you wrote some of their codexes.
Title: Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 5, 2003, 06:05:14 AM
Rasmus I think your list is great just the way it is.  It's smooth, characterfull, and fast just the way the harlequins should be.  After starting warmachine this is only 40K army I still love to play and it's because of their story and your army list.

Way to go Rasmus! :)

Sorry if I over did it but with all the flak flying about venoms and brain I thought you might need a pat on the back.  My comments are honest though.  I'd play GW games more if you wrote some of their codexes.
 Thank you, I guess.
  However, and I have said this before, this is not my doing. I am just the one by the keyboard. Without the total community of EO behind this project, it would have gotten nowhere. Without everyone pitching in with comments, good and bad, playtesting suggesting outrageous things and getting it shot down in a flurry of posts this project would have gotten nowhree.
   It is not my revision. It is EO's revision.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on November 8, 2003, 06:51:59 PM
Ah yess Rasmus but you have put in SOOOO much work into it... don't be humble.

Interesting about TMB I seem to recall reading a post that said otherwise posted by TMB himself.  Oh well you certainly know more than I do on this matter.

I noticed a typo although it really isn't that important at the moment...

7 lines down in the Flip Belts entry it says 'o' instead of 'of'

Great job EO!
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Indro Tyr on November 11, 2003, 06:32:21 PM
Just a note. Why can you move the webway portal generated via the Dark Veil? No other army can. Wraithgates and Webway Portals both have to be still. I know Harlequins are the masters of the Webway, but I can't fathom why they should be able to move it, it's supposed to be a fixed gate, right? I think it over-powers the usefulness of it a little too. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 12, 2003, 03:52:42 AM
It is supposed to move, as written by GW in their original proto-list. I haven't changed that. So far it has proved just about balanced in playtesting. Have you seen otherwise in your playtesting-games?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Indro Tyr on November 13, 2003, 03:26:17 PM
It so far doesn't look overpowering, I haven't used it due to the fact that I hate certain aspects of it. Mainly that it can really suffle up my intended army roster by having ICs pop out of it while the squads they were inteded to support stay back, or vice versa. I was just curious because I had never seen a mobile webway gate before. And as to the multi-vibro cannons on the Mockingbird, it works really well. The only trouble with it is that the vyper chassis gets shot down too easily to spend 45 extra points a cannon. However, when I taxed on an extra 10 points to it and used the Ravager chassis it was worth it. Both the Eldar and the Dark Eldar players I used it against loved it, but as far as the two other battles against Necrons and Tau they were quite indifferent. So I'd give it a green if you bumped up the side and front armour values to 11. Seemed balanced to be and to my opponents, but any other playtesting feedback is welcome.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 14, 2003, 05:05:44 AM
It so far doesn't look overpowering, I haven't used it due to the fact that I hate certain aspects of it. Mainly that it can really suffle up my intended army roster by having ICs pop out of it while the squads they were inteded to support stay back, or vice versa.
   The same thing happens with any army with multiple deep-striking units. What makes this different?

Quote
And as to the multi-vibro cannons on the Mockingbird, it works really well. The only trouble with it is that the vyper chassis gets shot down too easily to spend 45 extra points a cannon. However, when I taxed on an extra 10 points to it and used the Ravager chassis it was worth it. Both the Eldar and the Dark Eldar players I used it against loved it, but as far as the two other battles against Necrons and Tau they were quite indifferent. So I'd give it a green if you bumped up the side and front armour values to 11. Seemed balanced to be and to my opponents, but any other playtesting feedback is welcome.
   It is VDR; you are free to make whatever you want with the VDR and include it. The Mockingbird is just an example of something that can be included, as inspiration.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Indro Tyr on November 14, 2003, 04:37:54 PM
I wasn't complaining about the Dark Veil, just stating my personal feelings. I know all-DSing armies suffer the same problem, which is why I don't play them.  ;)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 15, 2003, 05:13:09 AM
Fair enough. If you find a sollution to this problem; please do suggest them. If the Harlequins could deep-strike in groups without it overpowering the gmae that would be grand...
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Indro Tyr on November 15, 2003, 11:52:12 AM
The best solution to it is allowing HQ units to take retinues. It is not overpowering, as I cannot think of a single DSing HQ unit that can't take some sort of retinue in other armies. Archons and Incubi, Farseers and Warlocks, SMurf heroes and Honour Guard, Wabosses and Nobz; the list goes on. ICs with Terminator Armour are an exception however. I'd say allow the Great Harlequin to take a retinue of 4-9 Harlequins, and the Shadowseer to take a retinue of 2-4 Warlocks. That'd basicly fix the entire problem in my opinion and allow Harlequins to have the same benefits that other armies have. I wouldn't give them to the Solitaire or Master Mime because both of those individuals tend to work alone (except the MM in some cases).   
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Wuestenfux on November 15, 2003, 01:04:15 PM
Reroll question:
http://www.40k.ca/community/index.php?topic=50834
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 15, 2003, 03:07:54 PM
I see... Nice thought. With the high point-cost of the Harlequins, retinues won't come easy though. It is hard enough to field 2x5 plus character. Now you have to have 2x5 plus character plus another five at the very least. Does this sound like a viable option?

And the re-rolls would only fail according to TAR. As they are not official yet, they still get re-rolls, as far as I can see.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Indro Tyr on November 15, 2003, 04:11:53 PM
Yes, but taking a retinue for your HQ units would eliminate the need to take units of the same type. Say for instance you currently have a roster with a unit of Warlocks. Simply take out the Warlocks and give the Shadowseer a retinue of them, eliminating the points-sink and at the same time freeing another Elites slot. As for the Great Harlequin, if you can't afford the points for a retinue simply don't take one, I never said it was mandatory. However it would still be a sound idea incase your GH suddenly is in the middle of an enemy army with no backup if he Deep Strikes. It's basicly a mirrored-list of other armies, as a few of their retinues can also be taken as seperate choices on their own, only difference is Harlequins tend to be more explensive. But anyone complaining about their points cost should talk to a Grey Knights player; I'd imagine he'd be simply laughed at.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 15, 2003, 04:34:17 PM
Grey Knights are the same cost as a non-special-armed Harlequin, I think...
I can see the merit in the Ratinue, but the Warlocks as Retinue would unbalance that unit, and make it overpowered (since you now can have four).
I think basic Harlequins with no Leader could make an excellent Retinue, without jetbikes and such, but with the same weapons/greandes as the normal troupe. What do you say?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Indro Tyr on November 15, 2003, 05:15:05 PM
Sounds great! I also made a mistake about calling the SS's retinue a Warlock retinue, I meant a Warlock Apprentice retinue, so I don't think it'd be unbalanced. If we add it we should clarify that if the squad numbers 7 models or less it may be mounted in a Venom, since the HQ choices are both Independant Characters, and it could get confusing. 
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Flash_hound on November 18, 2003, 04:49:48 PM
I made a harliquen VDR vehicle was just wondering if you liked it and thought it might be fitting in the codex.   Although already VERRRY good.  Thanks again.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 19, 2003, 03:22:23 AM
If you use the VDR it doesn't need to be in the codex; anyone can just cobble it together under the VDR. Post it in the general Harlequin forum (not in this thread) and everyone can see and try it out.
Title: About the EO revision...
Post by: EightyEight on November 26, 2003, 02:55:58 AM
Just a thought.

About the Shrieker cannon...

I think that the template should ONLY be positioned on the exploding model, but be able to be moved as long as the exploding model is still under it.

Wouldn't it seem strange if a Nob at the front of a unit dropped dead from a Shrieker in his head...
And suddenly a Grot at the back exploded and killed a few Orks?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 26, 2003, 05:55:14 AM
That makes sense. The wording needs to be tightened up a bit, I guess.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: EightyEight on November 27, 2003, 03:24:27 AM
Just another thought...

On the Mimes.
Quote
They do notget the advantages of the Holo-suit, Flip belts or Mask of Fear.
Would this mean that the Mimes have no save?
*checks rules*
Yep, thay have no save listed, so without Flip belts and Holo-suits they have no save and T3...
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 28, 2003, 04:52:49 AM
That is correct. They only get what they pay for.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: EightyEight on November 29, 2003, 05:53:29 AM
Gah!!!

Oh, well. They're only ten points.
*sigh* :P
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Karan Avten on November 30, 2003, 01:22:39 PM
I'm sorry but I have to disagree with that for ten points you get a T3 no armor save.  Thats just rediculus CWE Guardians are fewer points and they have at least an armor save and the DE Warriors are just as cheap as the Guardians and they have a better WS & BS then the Guardians yet in mind I think that the Shruiken Catapult is a better weapon then a Splinter Rifle.  So if you decide that they don't get an armor save then they should be reduced down in points to like 5-6.  Well thats just what I think.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Jonik on November 30, 2003, 01:33:46 PM
I'm sorry but I have to disagree with that for ten points you get a T3 no armor save.  Thats just rediculus CWE Guardians are fewer points and they have at least an armor save and the DE Warriors are just as cheap as the Guardians and they have a better WS & BS then the Guardians yet in mind I think that the Shruiken Catapult is a better weapon then a Splinter Rifle.  So if you decide that they don't get an armor save then they should be reduced down in points to like 5-6.  Well thats just what I think.

But this 10 point squad can infiltrate, has a basic 3 attacks each, can have 2 power weapons in the squad or 2 kisses in the squad, and if lead by a master mime can have mime disruption.  That is definately not worth 5-6 points, 10 is good; as long as they have backup in combat, and don't get shot at.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: monkeyman7679 on February 24, 2004, 07:52:17 PM
WELL....
Rasmus, I must commend you on your magnificent codex. I can honestly say I've never seen anything quite as good regarding the Harlequins.

I'm just wondering on the status of the Army Builder update for this incredible new list. It was mentioned that it was close, but that was months ago.

If there is still trouble with the Eldar Allies, could you possibly release a version without it, and then release the rest later?

Really looking forward to it, whenever it comes.

Congrats to all of you who worked on this.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on February 26, 2004, 01:09:48 PM
1. It isn't my revision. It is EO's revision. I just organised it a bit.
2. I have heard NOTHING about the armybuilder-file, and have assumed whoever was working on it has long since stopped. Sorry.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: monkeyman7679 on February 26, 2004, 06:28:58 PM
I just thought of a new idea for the warlocks. In several articles of fluff, ive heard of warlocks using Creidan (sp?) grenade launchers.
They seem to be a sort of backpack grenade launcher, and i was wondering if they could be implemented into the list, maybe like a cyclone missile launcher.

Maybe something like this.

Creidan Grenade launcher: many warlocks are known to carry a back mounted grenade launcher to augment their ranged capabilities. The GL replaces their shuriken pistol. Although it is back mounted, the controller device takes up one hand. other than this, it is treated in all respects as a grenade launcher, firing either frag or krak grenades.


Another thought, sorta like the one above, was if we were to make that, to change the frags to plasmas, just make them S3 AP5 instead of S3 AP6?

Also, one thing i never really liked about the Harlequins were the Hallucinigen grenades. They never seemed to play like they do in the fluff. In the game inquisitor, they were much more fully develolped, and i thought that we could make up some cool rules for them.

Some of the effects from the inquisitor game are:
The affected character thinks there is a giant wurm crawling up his leg, and shoot himself (great fun for all)

He thinks the gas is toxic, and drops dead, although he really isnt, he just thinks he is.

He thinks he can fly, and spends a turn flapping his arms like wings. If he is above ground, he jumps off.

The character thinks he is invisible and walks around, making faces at other characters.

these are just a few, and if we were to implement maybe just one of these, Harlies would suddenly become a cooler army, just fon the funny factor.

Any thoughts?

PS, it might be too late to make any changes, but i got into this late, so just adding my two bits worth.


Also, Ive downloaded the construction kit for AB, and im working on making my own files seeing as whats his face isnt finished yet.
This will be my first time making files, so im not promising a miracle, but Ill try.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on February 27, 2004, 05:53:50 AM
The belief-maker (creidan) is allready in the list, if you look for it. It is pack greande launcher and is a feature of jump-belt-equipped troupes, and Warlocks.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: monkeyman7679 on February 27, 2004, 06:10:46 PM
Oh yeah, forgot about that.

Any thoughts about Halucinogen grenades.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: EightyEight on February 27, 2004, 06:44:12 PM
Not specifically about the grenades, but a Harlequin Revision Armybuilder file would be nice, and those grenades in Inquisitor sound hilarious!
The sad thing is, those things would probably be to hard to implement in a big game like 40k. In Inquisitor it's fine, as there are only a few characters on the board.

But seeing a big Warboss and retinue go flappng round like birds and jumping off buildings would be a sight to remember...

Can someone PM me on how to use the AB construction kit? I got the demo to see if I could make some extra units, but I couldn't make head nor tail of it.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on February 27, 2004, 06:50:58 PM
Any thoughts about Halucinogen grenades.
   What is wrong with the way they work now? Simple, devastating, Harlequinesque...
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: EightyEight on February 27, 2004, 07:13:27 PM
Yep, but as I said, seeing a SMurf Chaplain clucking like a chicken would be a sight to remember... for the opponent and the Harlequin... ;D
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: monkeyman7679 on February 27, 2004, 08:01:21 PM
i just really want to see my friends chaos lord stab himself with his darkblade, trying to kill an imaginary wurm.

If harleys are supposed to be entertainers, i see nothing more entertaining than that.


Also: another question.
does the flight belt in the armory come with the GL? if not, will it be able to be bought seperatley?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on February 27, 2004, 09:23:49 PM
The two Troupes who can have Flight belts (Warlocks and Flight Belt troupes) can get Pack Grenade launchers. Lone characters can not. This is possibly due to the fact that a single character count not shoot enough greandes to get the desired effect.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: EightyEight on February 28, 2004, 01:36:45 AM
Actually, I think they could. They can throw enough to get the desired effect on the ground... ::)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: monkeyman7679 on March 7, 2004, 03:59:27 PM
well, i said i would work on the AB file, and heres the ubdate. Im mostly done, the main thing that needs doing is putting the the looted vehicles.

Also, i cant find a way to combine the eldar allies and LV to ignore breakdowns, so i guess just remember it?

Also, im still working on making the Masques limited to one total. and i need to make the eldar allies 0-2

when i think about it, it doesnt sound like i did much, but many long hours went into this.

Im probably going to release it how it is, and keep working, and possibly anyone who knows more about this than me can help.

One problem: how do i get it onto the web? and how should i zip it down? (it is more than one file)

anybody got any ideas? the best ive got is to have me email it to all of you as an attachment, but thats a pain for all of us. Anyone got a better idea?

any feedback would be welcome.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on March 7, 2004, 04:03:37 PM
Great going!

You can mail me the zip, and I can host it for you, and link it in to the first post on this thread, so people can find it.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: monkeyman7679 on March 7, 2004, 04:16:41 PM
can do, Mr. Rasmus.

im still fine tuning it, but ill give you what ive got so far, and send you the rest when its done.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on March 7, 2004, 04:18:58 PM
Fair enough. Just keep the updates coming, but please send complete zips all the time, so I dn't have to try to figure out what is updated and what is not, ok? :)


Edit - Link added to the first post.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Flash_hound on March 8, 2004, 09:14:22 PM
One thing that my league didn't like about the first list is that they thought that it made harlies indestructable.  I argued but they wouldn't let me use it.  I think we should change the dodge save to 5+ so that they do not seem overpowerful for basic troops...which cost 25 points.  Oh and errr rasmus the link doesn't work for me.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on March 9, 2004, 03:23:07 AM
1. Point to wyches, who has the same save, but cost LESS than half the points. I have had this disucssion with players as well, when playtesting, but they are rather happy with the pointcost of a basic trouper, and when they see they updated wyches (with their save and abilities) 25 points is far more reasonable.
2. The link is working, and the file is intact.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: monkeyman7679 on March 9, 2004, 03:28:28 PM
with respects to the looted vehicles, it mentions 'predator'. does that mean predator destructor, predator annhilator or both?

with regards to land raiders, does that mean crusaders too? and do looted LR still have the 'machine eye' (or some equivilant?)

and also, the griffon doesnt excist in the new IG codex. what to do about that?

also, familiar groups are now in the AB file, and im working on looted vehicles. hopefully be done by the end of the week.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on March 9, 2004, 03:40:26 PM
Good question. They weren't around when the original looted-rule was written, I guess.
I can carify that for whatever next update I make.
   They are supposed to be all sorts, but no machine spirit in the raider, I guess.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: monkeyman7679 on March 9, 2004, 04:56:50 PM
this might be a breach of copyright, but im almost done with the Looted Vehicles. All i need to know is how many guys can a raider and trukk carry?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on March 10, 2004, 02:45:59 AM
I'm sorry, but it would. You have to check the appropriate codex (or online update) that you can find. If that is all you are missing even a battlereport, or other AB-file, would be enough.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: monkeyman7679 on March 11, 2004, 05:03:01 PM
well, the new version of the AB file has been sent.

once its posted, it will be available for all. pretty much everything in the codex has been included, and if anyone sees anything missing or something thats not right, PLEASE let me know. I want to make these a good set of files, mainly because im a perfectionist when it comes to this sort of thing.

if you find anything wrong, either PM me or email me at monkeyman7679@dakkadakka.com

thanks
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on March 12, 2004, 01:30:31 AM
It is posted.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Thranduil on March 12, 2004, 10:48:58 PM
As a die hard eldar plaer compared to everyone in my gaming group, orginally i jsut played CWE. Then when looking on GW's site I found this downlode called harliquin codex, *que big bang noise* I looked at it, and it along with a solitare has come with me to many a game now. I then asid why dont i check out what EO has on hariles. Thus here I am. The codex lookes great, but where do i get the CJ's needed.  In addition what have been your experence with ppl letting you use a non GW codex. I just dont wanna upset anyone, becasue i already have my army recive names as space-elves, space-faries, and when i ask for tehre opnion on the eldar craftworlds looks, i get "deathstar painted pink" fowllowed by laught. god it seams pll love bashing on the eldar.  Anyway great dex, but how often shoudl i be ablet o use it/where do i get cj
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on March 13, 2004, 10:46:04 AM
If you gaming group are dicks we can't really help you. If they are just out to tease you because you play a certain army it won't matter what you play, They will pick on you regardless.
   The EO Revision has gone over well in most instances. I have playtested it with a multitude of opponents, and once I have explaiend what the list, and what it isn't, it has not been an issue that it was never printed by GW.
   The list in CJ 39 is the one you can download from GWs page. The additions in CJ 44 you can read more about in the stickied thread "Questions about Harlequins" and the CJ 50-entry is simply a clarification on the fact that you can't combine kiss/blades, and that mimes are supposed to be different.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: hellstrome on March 14, 2004, 08:51:56 AM
Hey Guys,

Do I need to install Army Builder to view the file?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Flash_hound on March 14, 2004, 10:07:23 AM
Only the army builder file.  The other file you need to have Adobe Acrobat Reader or another PDF file reader.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: hellstrome on March 22, 2004, 08:37:54 PM
Hey Rasmas,

As for looted vehicles, wouldn't harle's understand dark eldar & CW Eldar technology? I'm not sure if they should have to take a break down test for eldar vehicles.

Your thoughts?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on March 23, 2004, 06:58:48 AM
Comments.

1. My name is not Rasmas. Please get it right.
2. They don't really, just as little as Craftworlders understand Dark Kin tech. They are different cultures. It is like saying that just because you are human you should understand how cars work, even though you only work on jetplanes.
3. Also, if you notice, there is a way to avoid break-down for Eldar and Dark Eldar vehicles. It is taking "loyal" crewmembers and crew the vehicle with what it needs.

Harlequins, even if they did understand Craftworld and Dark Kin tech, don't repair looted vehicles. "If it move we'll use it, paint it up, and drive it as long as it stands for it. When it breaks, ditch it and get something else."

Does that answer your question fluff-wise?

Rule-wise, it has been tested, but proved far outbalancing the cost of the vehicles, especially the Falcon and Ravager. It just didn't work.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: alternatemoniker on March 31, 2004, 03:02:05 PM
Rasmus, thank you for the excellent list. I finally broke out my WH40k boxes a few weeks ago, after having not played in quite a few years. One of the first armies I wanted to try playing again was the Harlequins, after finding the new army list on the GW site.  The addition of your list really fills out the army, and gives it alot more flavor.

   Also, although it doesn't really pertain to this post, I'd like to say how impressed I am with this community. I found it by accident a week ago, and I'm desperately trying to dig through all the boards to catch up on the state of WH40k, and the tabletop hobby in general.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on March 31, 2004, 03:05:51 PM
Thank you, and welcome to EO/4ok.ca!
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Angelus888 on April 16, 2004, 04:16:35 PM
Nice list. Seems like there are a lot of special rules there. The army is very expensive points-wise, so you couldn't take much of what is there. Do Harlequins really need to loot vehicles though? I'd have thought taylor-making their own, such as the Venom, is far more beneficial. I like the rules presented on the whole though. Just thinking maybe there's a little too much to choose from.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Angelus888 on April 16, 2004, 04:42:24 PM
I've had a look at the Citadel Journal #44 extra rules, so now I have the bigger picture, from what Gav Thorpe has designed. I think I'd like to keep quite a few things you introduced into the list, but not all, as having loads to choose from and loads of rules is going back to the complexity of 2nd edition rules - something everyone wants to avoid. If I had to choose just one comcept from ur list, it would be the knowledge the Great Harlequin can bring to use in a battle (the different masques). This is just my view though. I always feel more confortable with what GW (in this case Gav Thorpe) has produced, and only making slight changes to it. That's just the way I work though.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on April 16, 2004, 05:16:45 PM
You DO know Gav had nothing to do with the CJ 44-list, don't you? :)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Angelus888 on April 17, 2004, 02:48:00 AM
Really? Didn't know that. I don't get to hear these little details  :( Either way, its a nice little addition, and ur stuff's good  :)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on April 17, 2004, 11:25:15 AM
Gav never had anything to with the CJ 44 or 50-addition. That was ... someone else... :)

And for the Nth time; this isn't MY Revision. This is EO's revision. I just happened to be at the keyboard, and write it. I didn't make it, only put it down on paper, as it were.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Angelus888 on April 17, 2004, 08:34:04 PM
i wish this impatience with people who dont read ALL the posts on this site can some day come to an end. in that case, congratulations to EO.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on April 18, 2004, 02:48:44 AM
It is not impatience, just basic courtesy to actually credit the creation to the ones responsible for it. The name of the thread isn't "Harlequin Revision - Rasmus" is it?
I just wanted to clear up ANY possible confusion on the matter.
And I don't mind telling it over and over.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Blackavatar on April 22, 2004, 02:19:36 PM
After many hours of work, pouring over older lists, reading and re-reading CJ-lists, other people's proto-lists and older things, claimed from the RT era and onwards, and playtesting in dozens of fights against different armies, I will now place this revision on EO.

I submitted it first for publication on this site, but seeing the stream of proto-lists I thought it was not right. I have instead posted it here.

I cannot read this, my dumb computer talls me its unguilty or corrupt! Can I find it some where else?

Thanks anyway!
Now, the list itself is not here, as it would be rather big, and hard to edit, so I placed it on my website instead, and ask all of you, veterans and newcomers to the Masques, all, to view this and say if you think it could be worth submitting to GW in the name of EO.

Click here for revision (http://www.eldaronline.com/rasmus/wh/e_rev.pdf)

The list contains nothing new, which is worth pointing out, but rather things that were found in older lists, and in variations of these. Oh, that's true. The Mockingbird is new, but it is VDR, and included more for completeness than anything else. Thank you Wes!

Feedback is encouraged.


*EDIT - I have linked this to the PDF-document instead, for easier reading/printing.
*EDIT - I have gotten a prelimiary Armybuilder-file for this work. You can download it here (http://www.eldaronline.com/rasmus/wh/harley.zip).

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on April 22, 2004, 02:23:20 PM
No, if you can't get it to work I suggest you update your acrobat reader.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Flash_hound on May 7, 2004, 04:05:45 PM
Dude rasmus wrote the original third edition harliquen rules...I am soon going to introduce the rules to my local GW and I will inform you on how it goes.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Nexes on May 8, 2004, 05:34:04 PM
I finally got around to printing the revison off(i dont like reading off .pdf's) and I must say that I love it... I'm glad to see the benathai are included, and I like the new options (ESPECIALLY the venom not be heavy support). I dont know if this has been mention yet, but someone should make up some special characters, or even having Maugen-Ra being able to join. Some ideas I had for other squads was an Ace, and Sword Dancers. Oh and the Army Builder thign doesnt seem to work..
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 8, 2004, 05:43:05 PM
Make a character, and post it in a new thread for us to discuss.
I will do the same once I get to the Harlequins in my list of things to paint.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Thranduil on June 6, 2004, 09:58:20 PM
Were doing a map campagin at my gaming store and I asked if I could use harlies, from a dex thats not GW written. They said yes, so ill let you know how it works with my strike force.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on June 9, 2004, 04:33:23 AM
It has now been a rough year since we completed this, and apart from a few tweaks I think that the playtesting has proven that the list works.

I propse this; if the Harlequins are dropped in 4th ed we post this everywhere and make it the premier unofficial list for Harlequins everywhere! :)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: kamikaz on June 9, 2004, 08:25:13 PM
I haven't played it yet it looks good and I wonder why it isn't posted in the eldar online harlequin section.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on June 10, 2004, 04:15:54 AM
If you notice very little has been posted in any section for a while. The site isn't updating very quickly right now. However, once they start updating it will be on there, trust me.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 15, 2004, 05:17:08 AM
Revision updated with new killzone-clarification.

I think I will add pics to this too once I have some decent ones.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Archon Khiraq(danceman) on July 17, 2004, 07:39:55 AM
VERY nice work rasmus and anyone else who might have been involved... recently ive been looking back my harlies and if time and all is nice to me i´d hope i can convince my friend to let me use/playtest this list.

again, hats off to you rasmus
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 17, 2004, 07:42:35 AM
Thank you, and credits to all those who have participated in all of this. It is not my Revision, even though I am the principal Author. There are lots of people involved in all of this, not counting the hundred-or-so playtesters.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Wurzelmaniac on July 30, 2004, 06:37:32 AM
How about a selection of 'Exarch Powers' for certain characters (need new name if we do).

Only certain powers will be apliccable o/c, these are the ones I feel should be included.
Bounding Leap
Defend
Evade
Skilful rider
Crushing Blow
Hit and Run (the WS one)
These are the ones I can recall offhand there may be more plus I have a couple of other ideas.

If we use them they need a limiting factor so I propose that they are limited as follows.

Troupe Leaders may have one power because they are fairly experienced.

Warlocks may not have powers because their psychic training takes up so much time.

Shadowseers may have one power because they have had more experience than Warlocks.

Master Mime may have up to two due to his high level of experience.

Great Harlie may have up to three because he is so experienced and infused with the power of Cegorach.

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Zer0k@y on July 30, 2004, 01:37:24 PM
Rasmus have you considered special characters?

I made a codex for 2nd ed. which included:

The child of Cegorach (High Avatar).  Cegorach still lives and deities always produce Demi-gods.

A Generational Armor DJ.  The DJ wears a Wraithbone armor like the Phoenix Lords'.

A Mortal Guardian of the Black Library (Shadow Seer)

Cegorach!  If the Eldar get Avatars why not.  He is the only living non-fragmented Eldar God after all.  Now with the irratating C'tan he's even more important.

An ancient (only by human standards) Master Mime.  Created as the ultimate infiltrator/assassin.  The imperial assassins irratated me.  There dinky little life spans and they are better than Mimes who have practiced the art for likely several mortal life spans.  DON'T THINK SO.

Finally the actuall Guardians of the Black Library.  These were pretty much mindless creatures that hunted down any non-eldar essence.  They were composed of multiple spirit crystals of fallen Harlequin and Wraithbone thread.  Try shooting something that moves with even more grace than a Harlequin and is for the most part not there.

Oh.  I'd have to disagree with you on the major strength of the RT Harleys.  There two greatest strengths were that two thirds of the army could buy psychic powers and their ability to strike in hand to hand without retalliation.  If you recall in RT you could only attack to the front of the model, changing facing cost movement points.  Any model blocked line of sight and ground movement.  The Harlequin were the first army to have 365 degree LOS and  were able to pass through models, sighting there inhuman agility further enhanced by their antigravitic flip belts
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 30, 2004, 02:14:32 PM
The Exarch-powers would push the point-cost higher than they are now though. Do we want that? Even for underpriced (for its powers) Shadowseer? For the overpriced Troupeleader is is certainly not a very practical thing to do, I feel. Have you done the math to see how many points all these things would increase the basic line with?

Yes I have considered making special characters, but I, unlike many others with such aspirations, have started with the models. Once the models are done I will make rules for them. Keeps them a tad saner. I am making a way-laying Shadowseer.

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Zer0k@y on July 30, 2004, 03:03:28 PM
Great Harlie may have up to three because he is so experienced and infused with the power of Cegorach.

According to original fluff only the Solitare was touched by Cegorach.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on July 30, 2004, 06:23:29 PM
Yes, but this has been altered now. I personally liked the older fluff better though.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Zer0k@y on July 31, 2004, 09:22:09 PM
Yes, but this has been altered now. I personally liked the older fluff better though.

It appears that they changed the fluff for the Solitare but I didn't read anything in the fluff for the High Avatar that showed they were touched by Cegorach.

I definately like the old fluff better.  The old stuff said that Cegorach was still alive and had an active part in creating Solitares.  The new stuff shows no intervention by him and he could be dead for all they care.   I love the Harley fluff on Craftworld EO.  It's like somone interpreted the artifact out of the Eldar Codex the same way I did.  "Through the intervention of Harlequins shall we again become one, strong enough to rid ourselves of our greatest shame."
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Zer0k@y on July 31, 2004, 09:27:35 PM
BTW Rasmus did you receive the document I e-mailed you?  What did you think?  I just wish I didn't have to reformat my drive and forever destroy the completed codex that I had.  What do you think of the idea of the Muses?         
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on August 1, 2004, 02:53:41 AM
BTW Rasmus did you receive the document I e-mailed you?  What did you think?  I just wish I didn't have to reformat my drive and forever destroy the completed codex that I had.  What do you think of the idea of the Muses?         
   The stuff you sent I commented. Did you not get the reply?
   In short "overpowered" was my reply. If toned down to the Nth power it could work, but you could post some of your ideas here, and we could all work on them. I am not sure why you sent it to me exclusively... Oh well. It can't be used as they stand now. It it just simply far too powerful. Like the Dark Harlequin Assassins (shudder).
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Zer0k@y on August 1, 2004, 09:42:44 PM
Rasmus, when you were looking at it you did take it in 2nd ed. context right?  Your probably right about the overpowered though I was trying to make them like they used to be in RT which was overpowered at the time also.  How much of my idea would I be able to post?  I was also thinking of doing it in 3rd edition before I did anything.  Why just you, well I'm used to people thumbing there noses at my work so I guess I figured I'd rather have one person do it instead of everyone on the board.  I've never seen the DHA.  Color me stupid but how would I go about posting the entire document, and as I said before how much would I have to keep out?  Every pice missing would be detriment tword collaborating on the work.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on August 2, 2004, 11:21:40 AM
Tone it down (in some cases WAY down :) ) and then post it in its own thread, formatted to 3rd ed. We can hammer out the details, what can stay and wha needs to go, and how, and then add it to this work. Fair enough?

Just don't post anything that breaches copyright, ok?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Zer0k@y on August 2, 2004, 09:32:23 PM
Tone it down (in some cases WAY down :) ) and then post it in its own thread, formatted to 3rd ed. We can hammer out the details, what can stay and wha needs to go, and how, and then add it to this work. Fair enough?

Just don't post anything that breaches copyright, ok?

Can you give me a few examples of what to tone down?  I figured I'd give them the current Harley stats  but I wanted to keep the high amount of psionics in maybe not the particular powers though.  I'd probably base the characters off of current special characters.

If I happen to post something that does breach copyright is there a way that you can just edit it out of the body of the text?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on August 3, 2004, 01:46:05 AM
Yes, if you commit a breach of copyright I will deal with it. Never fear, it is why I am here, after all.

And what to tone down? Look it over, and anything you see that you feel you would not be comfortable facing across the battlefield; change it. If you can honestly say that you, using another army, think it would be "ok"  to face, and imagine yourself having a good battle; it is ok.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Lythsarra on August 10, 2004, 11:36:06 AM
It's probably just something wrong with my computer, but I cant seem to get the army builder file to work...
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Wurzelmaniac on August 10, 2004, 12:51:14 PM
Nor me but there are these wonderful things called spreadsheets about (or in my case Lotus Wordpro because I hate spreadsheets, everyone else seems to like them though) which are easy to use and can fulfil much the same purpose.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: ArchonSW on September 10, 2004, 09:06:08 PM
is it just me or is a possible 24" "the hunt" overpowered?  With a Deep Striking Shadowseer (fly belts (forgot the name)) in the middle of an army (or close) then using this could cripple them... Even if the shadowseer is not deepstriking if he was on a venom or something it would become unfair 3-4 units taking pinning tests?  Is this just me?
One more thing, can you use a psycic power if they are in a vehicle that moved 24"?

Martin
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on September 11, 2004, 02:47:41 AM
1. Yes, I have seen this used once, and most units just turtned and blasted the poor sod out of his dancing-shoes. It is rarely worth the points.
2. No, psychic powers follow shooting-rules. If you can't shoot; you can't use psychic powers.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: ArchonSW on September 11, 2004, 10:43:17 PM
would you mind if I posted a link to this thread on librarium-online?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on September 12, 2004, 02:22:24 AM
No, a link to the thread is ok; a rip-off of the file is not (it has happened before, I am just making sure we understand eachother).
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: IronAngel256 on October 6, 2004, 11:09:14 AM
I have a quick question, do models with flight belts automatically get to deep strike?  Deep-striking is listed as a special ability of the flight troupes and not of the flight belt.  If only flight troupes can deep strike then why would warlocks with flight belts be given pack grenade launchers seeing as they can only be used when deep striking? 

Just found this kind of confusing...
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on October 6, 2004, 11:28:54 AM
I can see how that is confusing, and I will fix it on my next write-over. Thank you for pointing it out.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: IronAngel256 on October 6, 2004, 12:16:00 PM
so just for clarification, can any model with flight belts deep strike or just the flight troupe?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on October 6, 2004, 04:33:02 PM
All models with the belt gain deep strike in missions allowing it.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: IronAngel256 on October 7, 2004, 08:57:33 AM
sweet, thank you very much Rasmus!
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: IronAngel256 on October 7, 2004, 11:10:18 AM
ok, one last question about the flight belts, isn't a deep striking solitaire or shadow seer way too powerful?  Having the solitaire deep strike is like a gauranteed charge on the turn he shows up and a properly equipped shadow seer can pin an entire army using the hunt.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on October 7, 2004, 02:38:59 PM
Since you can't charge when you deep strike you will be out in the open, and get killed rather swiftly.
And next time, modify your previous post rather than make a serial-post, thanks.
Title: A trend I have noticed.
Post by: daresh on December 10, 2004, 06:22:56 AM
hey guys, just my ten-pennerth.

There seems to be an opinion on this forum regarding abilities and traits that the rational goes llike this...

Unit X of Army Y has this ability for a cheaper cost than a harlie troupe so why should the harlies not have this?

The problem is when we have several traits all used together eachof which is justified in this way.

Harlies have a 4" asaault range cos Nids do and thay are cheaper
Harlies should get a 4+ inv save because X Y and Z do and they are all cheaper and so on.

You have to look at the whole picture. Each trait or additional bonus makes the unit that much harder. You cannot base a justification for an attribute on specific cases. You need to balance the points on how effective the unit would be as a whole.

I recently completed a league with several very experience players and we tried the EO codex.

Too Powerful! WAY to powerful. I won every game, hands down, easily. EVERY game.

Masque of the Dark Veil is so overwhelmingly cheesy! In one game my entire army got into CC in turn 1,  I wiped out Blood Angels, ALL of them in turn 1 barring 2 terminators who were easily despatched in my opponants combat phase.

I would suggest that Dark Veil is is used to nominat a point no closer than 12" to an enemy unit.

There is a problem with looted vehicles and Dark Veil. I would submit that since you state looted vehicles cannot move through the webway, you could not combine looted vehicles and dark veil.

I thnk the re-roll failed to wound in the charge is more than a little beardy. We get silly numbers of attacks and now you want to re-roll wounds as well? That is the only thing that balances Harlie CC attacks the fact that it is harder to wound some opponants.

On the whole though I think the list is going in braodly the right direction.

Above all I think we need to constantly platy devils advocate and try and balance the army fairly to make it playable and fun for our opponants as well as us.

Plus of course getting the damn thing recognised as, basically even my game club has stated this list os too cheesy so I cannot use this list anywhere.

Paul.







Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on December 10, 2004, 07:01:24 AM
Argh! Of course the looted vehicles should not be used with the Veil. I knew I wrote an amendment for that Masque, but it never made it somehow. After some playtesting hte troupes you could get through the veil was limited, as you said, of course, as it was overpowered.

Edit: Scratch that. Looted vehicles cannot use the Veil. If you did you were cheating.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: kamikaz on December 10, 2004, 03:41:01 PM
Well that's what caused the fall so wouldn't the harlequins try and change their way of living?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on December 10, 2004, 05:44:51 PM
Well that's what caused the fall so wouldn't the harlequins try and change their way of living?
   Um... What are you talking about? If you quote the post you are responding to is some clearer lines of discussions migh be seen here. Thanks.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: daresh on December 13, 2004, 07:06:12 AM
Rasmus, Are you saying the EO codex states that looted vehicles cannot use the Webway? Cos I can't find the text which supports it. For the record I do not use looted vehicles and never liked the concept. Where would the harlequins perfom such conversions/modification? certainly not in the webway. So how could they capture a vehicle, return to the webway and use such a vehicle in another battle?

It makes no sense, Much as the idea has appeal and a large amount of 'fun factor'.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Fishy on December 13, 2004, 04:24:04 PM
Hey,
not to sound stupid, and hoping that this hasn't come up before, but the Fleet Of Foot, Disrupted Formation and Holo-Suit rules are not referred to in the EO revision. Obviously the Flip-Belt rules, for example, replace the ones in CJ, but are the aforementioned rules still in place as well?
Cheers
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on December 15, 2004, 03:35:29 AM
Rasmus, Are you saying the EO codex states that looted vehicles cannot use the Webway? Cos I can't find the text which supports it. For the record I do not use looted vehicles and never liked the concept. Where would the harlequins perfom such conversions/modification? certainly not in the webway. So how could they capture a vehicle, return to the webway and use such a vehicle in another battle?

It makes no sense, Much as the idea has appeal and a large amount of 'fun factor'.

   EO Revision - page 4 - Mask of the Dark Veil "The entire Harlequin Army (except looted vehicles)..."
   And looted vehicles are not greatly modified - just repainted and furnished witha holofield (just slap some projectors on it) and then driven off. You do that in the field. That is why they are "looted" and not "stolen and modified". :)

Hey,
not to sound stupid, and hoping that this hasn't come up before, but the Fleet Of Foot, Disrupted Formation and Holo-Suit rules are not referred to in the EO revision. Obviously the Flip-Belt rules, for example, replace the ones in CJ, but are the aforementioned rules still in place as well?
Cheers
   EO Revision - page 1 - Special Rules - See Citadel Journal #39 - page 6.
   All rules there, unless changed, are included. There are no exclusions mentioned.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: daresh on December 15, 2004, 04:32:48 AM
Yeah but yeah but yeah but yeah but....

I know I am being pedantic but how do they get vehicles at the field of battle, Prior to the battle? They can;t bring them as we have established so...

where do they come from fluff wise?

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on December 15, 2004, 04:44:22 AM
They are just stolen and driven around, basically. Not all Harlequins retreat to the safetly of hte Waebway after each strike in a major engagement. It would endanger your safety to pop gates open over and over. So you land some Harlequins, they strike at what they want, steal some vehicles, and drive on until they are done, at which time they ditch the rides and go back into the Webway, and go off to wherever they want to go.
The Harlequins are NOT the USF.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: daresh on December 15, 2004, 05:57:02 AM
USF? I never said they were!

*confused mode - on*
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on December 15, 2004, 06:06:47 AM
The likeness to how people like to think of the Harlequins and the way the USF are striking, and wrong. As the Harlequins work protecting the webway many think that they strike only from the webway and hten go back there again. This is not true. This is why the Harlequins are NOT the USF. No, you didn't say so, but the way you posted your comment about the looted vehicles having to go into the webway to be part of teh Harlequin-force I felt it leaning in that direction. Sorry if I confused you.
The Harlequins use the webway when it is convenient for them, it is not a tactical dogma for them, as it is for the USF. They come and go as they please, as in all things. If they have a tank they have paitned up and like driving around the webway is no fun, since you would have to abandon your new toy.

"All their wars are merry.
All their songs are sad."
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Solitaire11 on December 19, 2004, 04:24:41 PM
Im going to play test it sometime....I have to! ;D Good list!
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: egeus52 on January 1, 2005, 02:55:47 PM
not certain that this wasn't already covered, but since a mimic can be given wargear from the armoury he can presumably take a D-field and be able to use it.  likewise, he can take one of the more powerful masks.  And yet he can't use a normal holosuit or mask of fear (or flip belt)?  This seems to make no sense - surely his lack of training should prevent him from using those items, or if on the other hand he is considered to be better trained, then he should not suffer from the mime's disadvantage rule in the first place.

Just a thought...

btw - i really like this list and will be usin it for the first time tomorrow. :)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on January 1, 2005, 03:07:26 PM
Well, not everything comes down to training, I suppose. I mean, Boyscouts have access to pretty sofisticated night-goggles when on longer hikes, just like soldiers do, but they still don't have any M16's. So in a way I see your point, but then again, there are several explanations as to why the Mimes would have access to some but not all equipment. If the Mimic were to have all those things it would be another 20 points added ot its costs. Would it be worth it? Given that he would be alone in the squad with it?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: EightyEight on January 5, 2005, 07:13:36 AM
Is Nightshade going to be added to the revision? Just out of interest.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Lascidel on January 5, 2005, 12:53:21 PM
I'll apologize first that I didn't read the 13 pages of replies. I don't play Harlies but I read the codex and have a few comments for simplicity. This was obviously written during 3rd ed and a few things should be modified. Mostly it's a case of 'don't specify rules which are in the BGB because the BGB already has them.' If BGB changes them you get those problematic conflicts of rules. If anyone else, in the past 13 pages has mentioned any of these I'm sorry for bringing it up again.

page 1, flip belt entry makes reference to TAR. I'd suggest removing that. Also remove the 'receive 1 attack like other models' because that is a TAR rule.'
page 2, new harlequin wargear: 'these rules supercede the main rulebook rules.' you should probably drop that, it sets a bad precedent and the only real shared wargear are witchblades and fusion guns. Again, this is a case where *IF* the rules are changed you'd want the Harlequin rules to change to. It would be complicated to have 'harlequin witchblades' and normal witchblades. If witchblades are deemed too weak/strong then all witchblades should be effected (as an example).
page 3, familiar group: add 'cannot be taken as casualties.' That is obviously implied, but some people read what they want to read.
page 3, bio-explosive ammo: you can drop the 'reposition the blast template.'  as that is a standard rule.
page 4, grenade pack launcher is usable on the turn the model deep strikes. if the model comes through a webway it shouldn't be allowed (which is deep strike)
page 5, masque of red death: rewrite to say that they follow the standard hit & run rules in BGB.
page 5, shadowseer psychic powers: "can only use one power per turn" you may wish to make a comment about using familiars.
page 7, warlock power, "reroll any misses in the shooting/combat phase." I assume you mean 'reroll to-hit misses', if so I'd make that explicit. if you mean ALL misses (like the Librarian Veil of Time) such as a fail to wound, or scatter I would be explicit as to which 'misses' you are referring to.
page 7, sneaking off the join the circus: I'd give a fluff reason why such equipment/models aren't allowed.
page 8, flight belt troope deep strike: 3rd ed rulebook page number reference, update to 4th. There are probably a few of these.

The only note I'll make as to a real change, not just a clarification, is warlock group special powers. I'm assuming that a roll of 3 will twin link weapons and doesn't reroll to-hit, to-wound, leadership tests, AP rolls, etc. If so, TLing a BS3 weapon and increasing BS to 4 isn't much of a difference (75% vs 67%). I'd consider finding a new psychic power, like become fearless, or reroll morale.

Awesome work.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Harmen on January 6, 2005, 03:22:39 PM
Annoyingly enough, my Acrobat reader doesn't work on your file, and on what I beleive to be your site (with the orange Background?) I could find the list either, don't you have an HTML version of it?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on January 11, 2005, 03:56:00 PM
I'll apologize first that I didn't read the 13 pages of replies. I don't play Harlies but I read the codex and have a few comments for simplicity. This was obviously written during 3rd ed and a few things should be modified. Mostly it's a case of 'don't specify rules which are in the BGB because the BGB already has them.' If BGB changes them you get those problematic conflicts of rules. If anyone else, in the past 13 pages has mentioned any of these I'm sorry for bringing it up again.

page 1, flip belt entry makes reference to TAR. I'd suggest removing that. Also remove the 'receive 1 attack like other models' because that is a TAR rule.'
  Yes - any 4th ed re-write would of course remove that. For now, since the main text is from 2003, most people will get that it is for 4th ed. Frankly I am holding off any major rewrite until I see how leaping is handled in the Nid codex.

Quote
page 3, familiar group: add 'cannot be taken as casualties.' That is obviously implied, but some people read what they want to read.
   True enough.

Quote
page 3, bio-explosive ammo: you can drop the 'reposition the blast template.' as that is a standard rule.
   But it was not when the thing was written...
 
Quote
page 4, grenade pack launcher is usable on the turn the model deep strikes. if the model comes through a webway it shouldn't be allowed (which is deep strike)
   True again

Quote
page 7, sneaking off the join the circus: I'd give a fluff reason why such equipment/models aren't allowed.
   The Revision is low on fluff on a whole, but something could be done about it I guess.

Annoyingly enough, my Acrobat reader doesn't work on your file, and on what I beleive to be your site (with the orange Background?) I could find the list either, don't you have an HTML version of it?
  No - the HTML-version was corrupted over and over, and I kept getting mails like "Hey! How could you write Harlequins with WS8!" just because someone wanted to "boost" the values a bit. This is not an option with the PDF. And the document works, as far as I can tell. My acrobat reads it fine.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Lascidel on January 22, 2005, 10:02:07 AM
Rergarding Mime disruption:
I'm sure you are better versed in Harlequin background than I am, but it occured to me today that the mime disruption doesn't really affect the harlequin's most hated enemy; chaos. Many chaos lists are completely fearless. I wouldn't put it past the harlequins to play with the heads of someone who is immune to head games (just for their own fun), but it seems their tactics should be best suited towards their sworn enemy.

As a suggestion, and this would make them unique from Alaitoc, instead of -1Ld/pinning/reserve, perhaps things like:
drugged: The Mimes infiltrate the enemy barracks and poison the opponent's food or inject them with harmful chemicals while they sleep. -1S to a random/target infantry unit for the battle. (-1T would work too, I don't know if thay would be too powerful though when combined with Hit & Fade and power weapons)
frustration: The Mimes infiltrate the enemy camp and engage in being generally annoying. Leaving calling cards, jumping out of the shadows to wave at the enemy then dissappear, painting helmets neon pink, etc. This encourages the enemy to want to wring the necks of the Harlequins; a certain satisfaction which can't be accomplished by use of a gun. -1 BS to a random/target infantry unit for the battle.

Food for thought.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: jmeis982 on February 12, 2005, 07:04:38 PM
I'm sure this is probably covered somewhere else in this post, but i cant seem to get the army builder files for harlequins to work quite right. the instructions say to import teh 3 .40k files but there are 6 of them and then i get a missing variable error.

JP
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: EightyEight on February 12, 2005, 08:21:46 PM
frustration: The Mimes infiltrate the enemy camp and engage in being generally annoying. Leaving calling cards, jumping out of the shadows to wave at the enemy then dissappear, painting helmets neon pink, etc. This encourages the enemy to want to wring the necks of the Harlequins; a certain satisfaction which can't be accomplished by use of a gun. -1 BS to a random/target infantry unit for the battle.
Heh heh. Great idea! I can see my friend's Space Wolves raging across the battlefield waving pink helmets and toy bones at the Harlies...
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on February 18, 2005, 10:12:10 AM
I was reading some harlequin fluff on critically hit, and found this section on the Harlequins taken from White Dwarf 105:

A device known as a holo-suit, dathedi shield (dathedi: "between colours"), or visual disruption field, is incorporated into each Harlequin's body-suit; projecting a holographic field around the wearer's body. This produces various costume effects in performance, and operates in battle like a programmable form of cameleoline, breaking up the Harlequin's outline. Refractor and conversion fields are also widely used as well. In addition the Death Jesters commonly wear carapace and other armour types.

So perhaps the army list should incorporate these ideas instead of the 4+ flip belt save?

If you want to read all the fluff, here's a link: http://www.criticalhit.co.uk/w40krp/WD105_Harlequins.shtml

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on February 18, 2005, 10:14:21 AM
The holo-suit provides coversave, and the flip-belt save in cc.
You want to add an armoursave for the DJs?

Refractor and conversionfields were common in RT and 2nd ed. They are all but gone now. It will be tough to reintroduce them. I think it is simpler this way, but if you can make it work then please let me know how.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on February 18, 2005, 10:53:30 AM
The holo-suit provides coversave, and the flip-belt save in cc.
You want to add an armoursave for the DJs?

Refractor and conversionfields were common in RT and 2nd ed. They are all but gone now. It will be tough to reintroduce them. I think it is simpler this way, but if you can make it work then please let me know how.

I started out with RT and 2nd ed, so I might be more comfortable with the concept that the new generation players. Most of which have never even heard of the fields.
I noticed they are part of the pirate lists, but pirates aren't likely to be officialy introduced for a long time i think.

Refractor fields ar very "harlequenish" in my opinion, as old fluff says refractor fields are identifiable as a shimmering blur of lights, much like the holosuit itself.
Conversion fields transformed the raw energy into blinding flashes of light, which is also harlequenish imo. And I wonder at the reason why they totally removed the concept of personal protection fields. Races like Tau and Eldar in particular would likely employ these, and perhaps some high ranking imperials. Dark Eldar might use them aswell.

GW might have removed the concept, but then "reintroduced" personal field in the harlequin lists, like the holo field and domino field. And you still have the rosarius, which originally incorporated a conversion field. Not sure they still use the wording though. You also have Dante's familiar with the helmet still, right?

So it seems the concept isn't entirerly gone, and so would not really be reintroduced, just used again.

As for Eldar, I can't see aspects using it, as they are bound within they're chosen aspect, and the gear they use. Farseers and warlocks have their rune armour, and so wouldn't need it. Pirates would use them, and certainly harlequins. A few high ranking exodites might use them, although I imagine they would be in few numbers.

Chapter masters, possibly other high ranking space marines, like Librarians might, chaplains already do.
Certain commanders of the IG might, Yarrick has his own special field.

THe differend Ordos would certainly have access to these fields, inquisitors and their like.

With todays armour rules, you could only use one save at any time anyways, and they would count as invunerable saves for all intents and purposes.

This is my general breakdown of protective fields.

As for death jesters, their heavy weaponry might make them less mobile than other eldar, and them standing still might make a Carapace more realistic. But what would be the point of the holo field then? a 4+/4+ cover save? The carapace would work against template weapon like flamers.

The difficult part I suppose is the problem of having two unmodifiable saves. Maybe holofields can work like stealth? adding to cover save?

Any other suggestions?

EDIT:

Ursakar Creed has a refraction field. Just found that out. So the technology is still there.

The biggest problem is not reintroducing the fields, they already exist in 4th ed, though far from common. The problem is how to work them into an army list.

Perhaps say the holofield always adds 2+ to any cover save, and all harlequins come equipped with refractor fields, with an option for HQ's squad leader etc to buy carapace armour or conversion fields?

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Jonik on April 2, 2005, 12:42:39 PM
I've been thinking about mimes, or even harlequins as a whole (but mainly mimes).

Isn't there a space wolf special rule where their scouts can come in from the opponents table edge? Would that work with mimes?

Just a thought.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Anacron on April 2, 2005, 08:10:29 PM
Why can't the Stormglove (i.e. riveblade ;)) be combined with powerblades?

Why can the Master Mime only re-roll cover save/FoF if he's with a squad?  Can't he do it by himself?

Really not convinced by the Shadowseer's Benathai rules. :-\  You need to make clear that the fusion pistol no longer is a Pistol, but is now an Assault weapon if you have enough of them.  I assmue they are modelled like a Nurgling Infestation.

Why is a Harlequin only wounded on a 4+ when crashing using a flight-belt? What makes a flight-belt any different from any other jump pack technique?

I thought I had loads more comments/complaints/questions than that, but the rest's actually rather good. :)


Special force fields:  I wouldn't say they're all but gone at all.  The Guard speak regularly of refractor fields, and the marine codex calls the chaplain's rosarius a conversion field (iirc, anyway).  I did make up some new rules for them once, they're not brilliant but you might be able to get some ideas from them

Conversion field (4+): if at least one successful invulnerable save is made in close combat, all models in base contact halve their WS (rounding up) for this assault phase (or next assault phase if already fought this phase).  No special rules against shooting.

Displacer field (3+): if at least one successful invulnerable save is made against wounds from a single unit (or single initiative step in combat), model moves D3 in a random direction.  Model will stop before moving into/through impassable terrain, and will stop the other side of other models (1” away in the case of enemy units he wasn't in combat with).  This can take him out of combat, opponents may not consolidate.

Power field (2+): At the end of each player turn, roll a single D6 for each wound saved by the power field in that turn, and consult the following table:
Any Double: Overload! The powerpack fails, and the power field will not function for the rest of the battle.
Any Triple: Meltdown! The generator overheats, and inflicts a single S5 AP2 hit on the bearer, which the power field will not protect against. Needless to say, the field will not function for the remainder of the battle.
Any Quadruple: KABOOM! Place the small blast marker over the model, and every model touched by the template takes a single S5 AP2 hit, vehicles are undamaged.  The power field user is killed without recourse to any save.

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on April 3, 2005, 07:13:43 AM
Why can't the Stormglove (i.e. riveblade ;)) be combined with powerblades?
   Possibly you can't cut the same whole with two blades at once. Try with with two swords and see how easy it is.

Quote
Why can the Master Mime only re-roll cover save/FoF if he's with a squad? Can't he do it by himself?
  He needs their bodies to cover himself, perhaps? And he gets inspired to lead them, and moves quicker? Basically it is a balance-mechanic called "synergic potential" that makes the Master Mime something other than a smaller Solitaire.

Quote
Really not convinced by the Shadowseer's Benathai rules. :-\ You need to make clear that the fusion pistol no longer is a Pistol, but is now an Assault weapon if you have enough of them. I assmue they are modelled like a Nurgling Infestation.
  This would be in the 4th ed revision. Nad no, they would not, at least not originally. I posted pics of mine a while back.

Quote
Why is a Harlequin only wounded on a 4+ when crashing using a flight-belt? What makes a flight-belt any different from any other jump pack technique?
Because unlike all others he has another belt that allows him to ignore terrain when moving. These combine in this way.

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Leurethir Khiadei on April 20, 2005, 01:45:42 PM
Hey, I've took a look at ur harly revision and i have but one question. (I may be confused out of pure ignorance, but hey)

How can ur special character "Nightshade" carry an executioner, powerfist, powerblades and a shuriken pistol?? Is this even possible? If so, how ???
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Leurethir Khiadei on April 20, 2005, 02:06:53 PM
ok forget everything I said. I just found out how and realise that the rank "newbie" is at present, the most fitting title i could have been awarded :-(
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on April 20, 2005, 02:21:31 PM
Don't worry about it, we were all newbies at one time :)

And to help you mature on the board, I will first tell you not to double post, instead, use the (http://www.40konline.com/Themes/default/images/english/modify.gif) button to add/replace/delete parts of you previous post. Double posting is considered spam, and will quickly get you in trouble.

I would suggest you check out the Beginners & Newbies (http://www.40konline.com/index.php/board,41.0.html) section of this community. It will help you out with forum rules, and how the forum works. :)

Good luck, and glad to have you with us.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on April 21, 2005, 03:16:02 AM
Welcome to 40konline!

And the wording will be clarified in the next edit, after the Nid codex is out.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Wurzelmaniac on April 24, 2005, 01:12:08 PM
I liked the powerfield ideas, especially the last one. They'd have to be rare and expensive though.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: EightyEight on April 25, 2005, 08:53:12 AM
Well, the power field would- and it might as well work just like a Shadow field- but I think the point is (at least with refractor/conversion fields) is that they are not rare and expensive- they are already.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on April 25, 2005, 09:03:06 AM
The main problem is how to efficiently calculate in fields.
The Holo-Field currently grants the wearer an automatic cover save, and I think this is the weakness.

I forsee the following choices:
1. The Holofield makes the wearer difficult to spot, and forces the opponent to always make a nightfight test when firing towards the wearer.
2. Due to the difficult in targeting a unit using a holo field, enemies must reroll any successful to hit rolls against the harlequin. (both shooting and CC)
3. The holofield makes the wearer indistict and difficult to spot, granting him an automatic +2 to coversaves, (IE 5+ if in open)

Any or these choices, or a combination will work well. Then give your basic harlequin refractor fields, and upgrades to conversion fields for characters and squad leaders. HQ units might have access to powerfields. (2+, but not in combination with domino fields)

Comments?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Aryamnelath on April 28, 2005, 08:45:03 AM
Cant get your revision onto my system but aslong as the solitair stays you have my vote ,played lotsa games using 3rd ed rules best and most fun 1000pts to 2000pts battles Ive ever fought and collected catch up in the black library sometime soon, ARYAMNELATH of the Silver Sword TROUP
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on April 28, 2005, 08:50:04 AM
What is the problem with you getting rhe revison then? Can't you download the file or can't you opne it?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 12, 2005, 05:38:00 AM
Ok... I have started revising this for 4th ed. Not a lot has been done thus-far, just some small corrections as to page-references, and some clarifications on wording. I have also toned down some elements (such as looted vehicles and Spiritwalkers) to another set of numbers I had from an older revision, and I think it might work better this way.

There is a link in the first post as well as here.

http://www.eldaronline.com/rasmus/wh/e/harlies.pdf

Feedback people!
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on May 12, 2005, 06:00:44 AM
Looks good Rasmus. I can't immediatly see anything that needs more attention to the 4th ed ruleset, but I'll take a more thourough look later.

I never did get any comments on my ideas for fields though?

Oh, and I am worried that the harlies are getting a bit too powerful on the charge.
I am thinking of the Hit & Fade rule.

I think a better way to represent such behaiour is to allow for some kind of hit & run special rule.
(not that this neccessarily is any less powerful)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 12, 2005, 06:14:45 AM
Well, if you can outline such a change that does not limit the capacity too harshly (as it did before, prompting others to include suggestions of equipping ntire squads with powerweapons or kisses....).
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on May 12, 2005, 06:27:01 AM
Well, if you can outline such a change that does not limit the capacity too harshly (as it did before, prompting others to include suggestions of equipping ntire squads with powerweapons or kisses....).

I'll think on it, if I can come up with something plausible, I'll let you know. It's a rather difficult issue on game balance really.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 12, 2005, 06:39:48 AM
It is, as is why it was put there, since hte 2" kilzone allows a staggering amout of hits back, and not enough wounds over to  the enemy to be near their level of skill. Especially against S and T 4-armies.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on May 12, 2005, 06:58:47 AM
Not to dig up old arguments and nostalgic feelings about previous editions, but it is my view that alot of the balance issues in the game is a problem caused directly by GW's move to "streamline and simplify" the ruleset, removing to hit modifers and armour modifers.

In my opinion, that move only resulted in GW having to find a bunch of other ways to differentiate races and abilities that really only ended up in a more difficult ruleset.

But we need to work with the ruleset given.

It is fairly obvious that GW has had alot of success with their traits systems. It is also fairly obvious that they have streamlined the universal Special Rules.

So, on the top of my head, (and I have not crunched any numbers for this, working more out of a hunch based on a decade of experiance with gaming), i have the following suggestions.

1. Work in a trait system for the harlies, taking inspiration from Space Marines and Imperial guard. It could be worked into masques I suppose.

2. As for the Hit & Fade, instead of makin a new rule with rerolls to wound, they are given the Furious Charge Universal rule, representing the sudden and dealy assault. St 4 will be slightly less powerful the rerolling to wound.

3. Representing Harlequins tremendous skill with their weapons, and the high level of technology of their weapons, they could be treated as having Heavy Close Combat Weapon rules. (It's always annoyed me that only strength and brutality gives benefits to CC, not skill and technique). This will also help even out the trouble with high tougness and armour armies.

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 12, 2005, 07:06:03 AM
I think traits might be a bit too hard, and too easily exploited, but if you can come up with a list of variants then you are welcome to it.
Furious charge might actually do a lot of good. A shame I didn't think of it myself. Sure, why not.
As for heavy close-combat weapons... hmm... now sure... Need to look that one over.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on May 12, 2005, 07:13:48 AM
I think traits might be a bit too hard, and too easily exploited, but if you can come up with a list of variants then you are welcome to it.
I'll go over all the trait systems already intact, and try to extract from them those that might fit the harlequins. I'll post the results when I have them.

Quote from: Rasmus
Furious charge might actually do a lot of good. A shame I didn't think of it myself. Sure, why not.

Glad to help :)

Quote from: Rasmus
As for heavy close-combat weapons... hmm... now sure... Need to look that one over.

Again, this option let's us balance out what I thik is a flaw in the new system. Less powerful than powerweapons, and no need for making weird excuses for upping harlequin strength.

Given as an option for the squad as a whole, at a given points cost pr model. (half of a power weapon?). Maybe limited to a certain unit type of harlequins.

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 14, 2005, 02:08:33 PM
Overall it looks good!  A couple of notes:

Masque of the Red Death seems a bit strong to me.  Hit & Run for any unit is an oft-underestimated trick.  This, combined with the power of Hit & Fade, could be more dangerous than I originall thought.

With regard to changing the rules, I'm against Furious Charge as I feel it isn't in character with the Harlequin mindset.  The heavy close-combat weapons DO seem like a reasonable idea.  It would also help to alleviate problems with Death Guard Terminators, for example.

And Monkey-glove as a name needs some help ;)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 14, 2005, 02:28:14 PM
I have made some changes after running some numbers. Yes I agree Furious charge is not in character, but it is simple and playable. I have also tinkered with the flip belt and the Spiritlord statline. Update uploaded.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on May 14, 2005, 02:31:53 PM
On the Furious Charge, it isn't the name that matters, simply that it's a game mechanic that easily represents the sudden and swift assault. You could call it something else, but just use the rules for Furious charge.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Ryko on May 14, 2005, 04:26:43 PM
good new revision. now that the flip belts were downgraded to 5+ save in close combat my friends will stop be-atchign about how the 4+ was cheesy
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 14, 2005, 05:20:54 PM
Which is so odd, since the Wyches (who are half the points) get a 4+... People work in the most mysterious ways...
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Ryko on May 14, 2005, 06:09:34 PM
well, they've never seen a wych squad. i play a coven so no wyches in my army
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 15, 2005, 02:17:50 AM
Just show them the rules for wyches as a comparison.

edit: new update posted - heavy choppas.. erm... I mean heavy closecombat wapons and some other things up.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on May 15, 2005, 07:23:01 AM
*lol*

Heavy Choppas. I thought we agreed on Khorne Chain Axes? What gives? :P

It looks good. I haven't been able to get ahold of all the different codices for my traits idea yet, but I am working on it.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 15, 2005, 07:25:26 AM
I thought a bit about that too. The simplest way to do is to scrap much of this Revision and start from scratch, making it possible to add in Masques and Psychic powers as traits, as well as make Mime-Masques (remove Mimes as troupes, and using this trait all the Harlequins get infiltrate) and so on. It will be hard to do with this current list.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on May 15, 2005, 07:28:58 AM
We could always experiment, making a new revision based on the traits system, and then compare the two. The Traits system seems to be the way GW are moving at, and it's proven very popular with players. Using the different traits that already exist, and combining those with something of our own we should be able to make a viable traits list. It would mean dropping the current masks, but the trait system could be called masques I suppose.

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 15, 2005, 07:31:38 AM
So the un-trait-list would not include Mimes and Spiritwalker, Looted vehicles or Masques. Traits could include the use of the webway, Mimes (see Troll-list for how they just switched Harlequins to mimes) as well as inclusion of heavier units, and so on.

What about drawbacks?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on May 15, 2005, 07:36:39 AM
Well, as for drawback, I imagine something along the lines of a newly created force. A harlequin force that has just recently been assembled due to a harlequins reaching the stage of a Great Harlequin, and has to start his own force. (IE less recourses, few elites and experianced troops)

Harlequins that strike through very small webways, and cannot take any vehicles or mostrous creatures.

Harlequins that has had an encounter with a particularly nasty enemy and is reduced in some other state, with restrictions to the FOC, stuff like that.

I'll get back to you with more. Got a game in 30 minutes, and I plan on introducing the club to the squat lists, and see what feedback I get :)

 
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 15, 2005, 07:54:07 AM
Update posted.

Warlock group has been dismantled into a assiangable retinue, like the craftworlders, and now have an enhancing power. What do you think?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: eatep3 on May 15, 2005, 09:25:52 AM
About that warlock power, does it give the whole squad +1 attack?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 15, 2005, 09:27:09 AM
Welcome to 40konline eatep!

Yes, that is the general idea. Is the wording somehow unclear?

Bonuses in WS or I seemed to be somewhat superfluous, and BS out of character. And I had to make them useful somehow.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 15, 2005, 10:34:06 AM
I'm glad you finally removed the Warlocks, they were IMHO the most overpowered unit in the army.  The new incarnation looks good.

On the one hand, I'm opposed to traits.  On the other, they seem like a good idea.

Here are some drawbacks, I don't know if they are in character:

-As mentioned, limited choices on force chart (i.e. 2 elites, etc.)
-Opponents can choose to take an extra turn in game
-Opponents can choose to be attacker or defender
-Limits on units, like Jetbikes
-Can't take allied Eldar or Dark Eldar

On the other hand it could be more similar to the doctrines system, with no drawbacks but a lot of restrictions.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 15, 2005, 10:47:29 AM
I think that is better than handing over complexity to the opponent. It is just simpler to have the traits reflected within the armylist, as the SM-ones are.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: eatep3 on May 15, 2005, 11:41:09 AM
Welcome to 40konline eatep!

Yes, that is the general idea. Is the wording somehow unclear?

Bonuses in WS or I seemed to be somewhat superfluous, and BS out of character. And I had to make them useful somehow.
yes, I agree compleatly about how ws would be useless and bs out of character, I just think that a squad with this perticular power up may be slightly distructive.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 15, 2005, 11:59:47 AM
Well, paying 40 points for it was appropriate, as you only get it for basic troupers, not for joined ICs with all those nasty weapons. Is the cost off? If so, what should it be, and how do you calculate it?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: eatep3 on May 15, 2005, 12:26:06 PM
Im not sure as I havn't played a game with the new EO codex. It seems perfectly fair for a squad of 5-7 but a 10 man squad with 4 attacks on the charge could lay waste to just about anything. Other then that I think the list looks great.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 15, 2005, 12:36:11 PM
That 10-man squad along with the Harlequin Warlock would run to 350 points or something... It is supposed to waste most things.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 15, 2005, 02:08:44 PM
The thing about Harlequins currently, as I see it, is as follows:

The Harlequins are DESIGNED to be shot up, but are deliberately overpowered to compensate.  I think this is fundamentally flawed.  Why?  Because there are missions, etc. were this strategy doesn't work--like missions that involve teleportation.  However, I don't see how we can fix this.  Otherwise we could create a race more like SM than Harlequins.

Sorry I just had to get that out, I don't know if it's relevant.

With regard to the revision: I like End-hand.  It's a good name.

Rasmus I don't get what you mean by, "handing over complexity to your opponent."
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Manny-Kun on May 15, 2005, 06:33:22 PM
I am reading this and i am impressed. how do you decide the amount of points certain equipment and units are worth?

also, i am thinking of using your revision for the 4th edition with other casual players at local game stores. in order to make things fair would it be wise for me to show them the revised first or so? or is the idea a bad idea?

i think i said it wrong... :-\
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 15, 2005, 06:48:45 PM
Rasmus is just magical, I guess, when it comes to point costs.  ;)  Actually, it was painstaking playtesting I believe.

I think I understand your point.  You must show them the revision first.  Try to get them interested, so they can spread word to their other firends.  Please post any comments you have after palying with this list!
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Manny-Kun on May 15, 2005, 08:31:13 PM
Rasmus is just magical, I guess, when it comes to point costs.  ;)  Actually, it was painstaking playtesting I believe.

I think I understand your point.  You must show them the revision first.  Try to get them interested, so they can spread word to their other firends.  Please post any comments you have after palying with this list!

weeee! glad you understood :3 play i shall! ...with proxys... hehe ^^
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Manny-Kun on May 15, 2005, 09:59:15 PM
I'm sorry, im sure this was answered earlyer but is the venom now a deticated transport option or so? i am looking at it in the 4th edition codex and i cant seem to understand it enough. sorry.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 15, 2005, 11:35:42 PM
Try to edit your posts using the "Modify" button in the future.

The Venom is both a dedicated transport and a Fast Attack choice, sort of like the SoB Immolator.  I believe ;)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 16, 2005, 02:07:50 AM
Rasmus I don't get what you mean by, "handing over complexity to your opponent."
  It means that whatever your army does is what your army should do. You should not have an army that gives your opponent more work. Imagine, for instance, playing an opponent who says "Ok, just so that you know; I can't have any bikes, even though they'd be sweet right now, right+" You smile and look at his army and go "Yeah, they would." That works. Same guy, after setting up his army saying "Ok, since my army has the Eternal Dance-trait you are allowed to reposition all the terrain on the field." You have allready set up, and want to play, and now you have to do something else first? That is not such a good idea. Better keep it "within the family" or in this case, within the list, so to speak. Better now?

I'm sorry, im sure this was answered earlyer but is the venom now a deticated transport option or so? i am looking at it in the 4th edition codex and i cant seem to understand it enough. sorry.
   It is both. This is because it is simpler to have it as a transport for deployment-purposes, but it is a lot better to have it as Fast for things like the Solitiare. So it is both.

I am reading this and i am impressed. how do you decide the amount of points certain equipment and units are worth?
   It takes a bit of work, cross-referencing different lists, playtesting and balancing. It takes a few hours of work for every single model/item.

And please, manny, do not serial-post. The "Modify"-buttn, as pointed out by InfinityCircuit, is there for a reason. Thank you.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Manny-Kun on May 16, 2005, 03:04:36 PM
I see, this is the first time i heard of this.
by any chance is it an option to choose whether you want it as a dedicated transport or both dedicated and fast choice? the Venom counts as both fast and dedicated

also can a solitare choose a eldar jetbike for wargear?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 16, 2005, 03:09:44 PM
I see, this is the first time i heard of this.
by any chance is it an option to choose whether you want it as a dedicated transport or both dedicated and fast choice? the Venom counts as both fast and dedicated

also can a solitare choose a eldar jetbike for wargear?
   You buy it either as a transport or as fast attack. You have to pick when you pay the points for it, there is no way to "shift" it in mid-game.

As for the jetbike; look at the Harlequin Armoury. See the jetbike?  See the line under it? Does it answer your question? :)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 16, 2005, 10:19:57 PM
Has anyone done any playtesting with regard to the 'optimum' number of Benathai?  I'm just curious but it seems like an easy place where points could be wasted.

Rasmus: Have you gotten any clarification on how leaping is handled in the new Tyranids Codex?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 17, 2005, 02:25:28 AM
1. I have played with the Benathai a few times and if you don't use it correctly you are wasting a lof of points, but when launching into combat with termies just the shooting of four is enough to earn your points back!
2. I am working on securing that clarification, and hope to get it within a week at the most.

Edit: update posted - slight clarification on SS-power and vehicles, as well as a clarification on the passanger-capacity for the Venom, and finally a tweak on the Mimes' options.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Biggreengribbly on May 20, 2005, 07:42:09 AM
I'm pretty sure the leaping rules for Nids are that the rule allowing everybody within two inches of a friendly model within B2B is extended to 3 inches.

This I found out from the book belonging to a guy who pre-ordered the army box in case you wonder how reliable it is. This is my memory we're working from here so maybe you might want to confirm this
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 20, 2005, 07:46:47 AM
This is the information I have gotten too, which is what is in the revision at this time. Thanks.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 20, 2005, 05:15:08 PM
I went through it with a fine tooth comb, and I have a  couple more comments, mostly niggling reminders:

-The interactions between Jetbikes and Flip Belts.  I never really noticed this before, but I think you should make it clear that all Flip Belt rules apply for Jetbike-mounted models.  (Or am I wrong on this?)

-Do Flight Belt-equipped models use 3D6 instead of 2D6 for all relevant movement tests?  I don't think this is very clear.

-Plasma Grenades now can be used against vehicles.  Can a Pack Grenade Launcher be used to fire a Plasma Grenade at a vehicle?

-I think Tanglefoot Grenades should be 3 points.  Why?  The current incarnation will only reduce the enemy by 2", normally, whereas it used to reduce by 3.5".  However maybe with the high Initiative of Harlequins it is fine the way it is.

-Does the Masque of the Last Laugh give auto-hits or do you have to roll to hit?  You only mention basic S, not WS so I don't understand what you mean.  If you DO have to roll to hit, do you roll against an enemies modified WS or the enemy's original WS?

-I have a weird question about Masque of the Laughing God: Suppose you are playing a 2v2 game with Daemonhunters as your ally and two non-Chaos opponents.  Can the Daemonhunters adversary rules daemons be summoned within 12" of the Harlequin?  They wouldn't be summoned by "Chaos" models, per-se.

-Does Masque of the Red Death work on any Harlequin?  Does this include Spiritwalkers, Jetbikes, and Independent Characters?

-Shadowseer is mispelled in the "psychic powers" description section.

-Does the Vindicare Assassin Spy Mask work against Veil of Tears?

-Under Impetuousness of Youth the mention of "Warlock Troupe" needs to be removed.

-Don't you have to mention under all the units that they are either A) Harlequins or B)list the special rules?  I'm just wondering--it's obvious but I'm going for maximum ease-of-use

-"infiltrator" under Superb Infiltrator for the Master Mime needs to be capitalized.

-Isn't the accepted cost for a Shuriken Cannon on a vehicle 20 points, not 15 points like on the Mockingbird?  It's fine the way it is but I'm just wondering.

-Do Death Jesters get Hawk's Talons and Firepikes as mentioned in CJ44?  You only point the reader to CJ39.

-Superb Infiltrator is mispelled on Nightshade.

-Shouldn't End-Hand say it acts as a Stormglove, not a Powerglove?

Sorry for all the comments!  Probably mostly my own stupidity ;)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 20, 2005, 07:09:14 PM
No they are not. These are all things that I will get to have to fix, just not right at this moment. Thank you for your effort.

edit: List updated.

Some of these things are just fixed now, but some needed a comment.

Quote
-Do Flight Belt-equipped models use 3D6 instead of 2D6 for all relevant movement tests?  I don't think this is very clear.
This was already covered in the "moves as if equipped with jumppack"-line.

Quote
-Isn't the accepted cost for a Shuriken Cannon on a vehicle 20 points, not 15 points like on the Mockingbird?  It's fine the way it is but I'm just wondering.
Yes it is, but the catapults are 8 points, so that's why, as it replaces the catapults, the cannon is a tad cheaper.

Quote
-Do Death Jesters get Hawk's Talons and Firepikes as mentioned in CJ44? You only point the reader to CJ39.
No. Those were not my idea, but kinrades, and they fit horribly with  the long-range concept of the DeathJesters. Has anyone ever used that option? Made a single conversion for it?

Quote
-Shouldn't End-Hand say it acts as a Stormglove, not a Powerglove?
No, He needs a boost to his S if he is to hit anything with his mitten.  With S3 + Stormglove he has to roll a a 6 + 3 to glance 12 armour, with a powerglove all he needs is one six out of 2 dice to do the same
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 21, 2005, 05:41:37 PM
Thanks for the reply Rasmus.  I see know how I became confused.  But I still don't understand what a Powerglove does.  ::)

Any comments on the Tanglefoot Grenades idea?  I'm now tempted to keep them at 4 pts because of their strength--if a unit falls back, you WILL catch it with Tanglefoots.  On the other hand its relative power level is lower.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Manny-Kun on May 21, 2005, 05:49:27 PM
hmm i came cross a question with the venom.

venom is allowed to carry 6 troups and 1 IC

lets say i have an empty fast attack venom, no matter what, it can only carry 1 IC even if its empty? so lets say 2 DJ can not hop on an empty venom?

reason why i ask is because i came up with a situation where any DJ that are too far to catch up can hitch a ride from a returning venom. but if there is more then 1 DJ and only 1 venom it will take quite a few turns to get him up to the battlelines.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: eatep3 on May 21, 2005, 10:17:10 PM
Ok, I have just played my first game with any eldar online list. I played against a craftworld army using the new 4th ed list. I was playing against a much better and more experienced player who (before today) I had only ever one 2 games against. I wanted to try the new EO revision and the effect was insane. Between the Impetuousness of Youth psychic power and the hit and fade rule, I slaughtered him. At the end of the 6th turn I had half my army left. He had nothing.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Spaceman Spiff on May 21, 2005, 11:20:49 PM
Hi everybody.

I've just played a game against my eatep's harlequins, and I let him use Rasmus' revision because I was sympathetic as I also play harlequins and know how difficult it can be to play with the CJ 39 list. I was totally blown away by the Impetuousness of Youth psychic power. The thing is freakin' INSANE!!! It really does indeed make the Troupes fly across the battlefield. It got me peeved for several reasons:

1. The range on this psychic power is crazy! 18"? Come on!! Look at the range of some of the other Shadowseer powers and compare them to the Farseer powers. All of the augmenting psychic powers have a range of 6"!!

2. The Shadowseer doesn't need LOS to the unit that he's casting it on!! He can just sit comfortably behind an obstructing piece of terrain and make things zip around like crazy. This is just not right.

3. It only costs 10 points! This thing is deserving of so much more than 10 points. Again, compare it to the augmenting Farseer powers Guide and Fortune, they're both 25 and 30 points!


Now, I think that if anyone will ever let me play with the revision, I can see myself having a lot of fun with this power, but (there's always a "but") I think that this is a slightly overpowered ability. First of all, I would reduce its range to 6" or 12". Secondly, I would require the Shadowseer to have LOS with the unit he's augmenting. And thirdly, I would price this power at about 25 points due to the fact that it makes normal harlequins faster than most vehicles and jump infantry!

Also, I think that "the hunt" psychic power is a cool idea, but seems difficult to use efficiently, you might want to consider changing its range to 18" and possibly have it used as a shooting attack on a single unit, instead of having it effect every unit in the radius around the Shadowseer.

Anyway... I hope I'm helping with all this. I'll have more rantings to come.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 22, 2005, 05:29:10 AM
Thanks for the reply Rasmus.  I see know how I became confused.  But I still don't understand what a Powerglove does.  ::)

Any comments on the Tanglefoot Grenades idea?  I'm now tempted to keep them at 4 pts because of their strength--if a unit falls back, you WILL catch it with Tanglefoots.  On the other hand its relative power level is lower.
  It has been changed. You are of course right about it, so I changed it.

hmm i came cross a question with the venom.

venom is allowed to carry 6 troups and 1 IC

lets say i have an empty fast attack venom, no matter what, it can only carry 1 IC even if its empty? so lets say 2 DJ can not hop on an empty venom?

reason why i ask is because i came up with a situation where any DJ that are too far to catch up can hitch a ride from a returning venom. but if there is more then 1 DJ and only 1 venom it will take quite a few turns to get him up to the battlelines.
    Two ICs cna make themselves into one unit, so you could techicallycart around 6 DJs and  Solitaire, or 6 DJs and a Seventh as an IC in one venom. Talk about gunship!

Ok, I have just played my first game with any eldar online list. I played against a craftworld army using the new 4th ed list. I was playing against a much better and more experienced player who (before today) I had only ever one 2 games against. I wanted to try the new EO revision and the effect was insane. Between the Impetuousness of Youth psychic power and the hit and fade rule, I slaughtered him. At the end of the 6th turn I had half my army left. He had nothing.
  Did you use the 4th edition Revision or the 3rd? What army did you use and what did he use? Could you write up a battlereport (make a new thread for all of this, not in here please).

Hi everybody.

I've just played a game against my eatep's harlequins, and I let him use Rasmus' revision because I was sympathetic as I also play harlequins and know how difficult it can be to play with the CJ 39 list. I was totally blown away by the Impetuousness of Youth psychic power. The thing is freakin' INSANE!!! It really does indeed make the Troupes fly across the battlefield. It got me peeved for several reasons:

1. The range on this psychic power is crazy! 18"? Come on!! Look at the range of some of the other Shadowseer powers and compare them to the Farseer powers. All of the augmenting psychic powers have a range of 6"!!

2. The Shadowseer doesn't need LOS to the unit that he's casting it on!! He can just sit comfortably behind an obstructing piece of terrain and make things zip around like crazy. This is just not right.

3. It only costs 10 points! This thing is deserving of so much more than 10 points. Again, compare it to the augmenting Farseer powers Guide and Fortune, they're both 25 and 30 points!


Now, I think that if anyone will ever let me play with the revision, I can see myself having a lot of fun with this power, but (there's always a "but") I think that this is a slightly overpowered ability. First of all, I would reduce its range to 6" or 12". Secondly, I would require the Shadowseer to have LOS with the unit he's augmenting. And thirdly, I would price this power at about 25 points due to the fact that it makes normal harlequins faster than most vehicles and jump infantry!

Also, I think that "the hunt" psychic power is a cool idea, but seems difficult to use efficiently, you might want to consider changing its range to 18" and possibly have it used as a shooting attack on a single unit, instead of having it effect every unit in the radius around the Shadowseer.

Anyway... I hope I'm helping with all this. I'll have more rantings to come.
   If it was to be used as a shootingattack with a single target it needs a greater range, but drop a Shadowseer between a few blocks of Guardsmen and fire off the Hunt and you will see how effective it is! :)

   As to the Imperuousness of Youth.. Hmm. I never experienced it as that overpowering, but I will look it over again, and see if you have done something I have missed. Since it only affects a single squad at a time and the Harlequins tend to spread across the field pretty fast I have never seen it this bad. In 2nd ed this affected ALL Harlequins on the field (luckily those rules never made it into print...).
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 22, 2005, 10:05:34 AM
Hi everybody.

I've just played a game against my eatep's harlequins, and I let him use Rasmus' revision because I was sympathetic as I also play harlequins and know how difficult it can be to play with the CJ 39 list. I was totally blown away by the Impetuousness of Youth psychic power. The thing is freakin' INSANE!!! It really does indeed make the Troupes fly across the battlefield. It got me peeved for several reasons:

1. The range on this psychic power is crazy! 18"? Come on!! Look at the range of some of the other Shadowseer powers and compare them to the Farseer powers. All of the augmenting psychic powers have a range of 6"!!

On the other hand, the augmenting powers have a relative power level much higher than Impetuousness of Youth.

2. The Shadowseer doesn't need LOS to the unit that he's casting it on!! He can just sit comfortably behind an obstructing piece of terrain and make things zip around like crazy. This is just not right.

I sort of view Impetuousness of Youth as a power inherent to the Harlequins--something they all have.  However the Shadowseer was the only place the power could go.  Therefore it doesn't really need LOS.

3. It only costs 10 points! This thing is deserving of so much more than 10 points. Again, compare it to the augmenting Farseer powers Guide and Fortune, they're both 25 and 30 points!

Rasmus: did you lower the cost?  I would have sworn that I was agitating for the same thing months (or maybe even now a year) ago ;)

Now, I think that if anyone will ever let me play with the revision, I can see myself having a lot of fun with this power, but (there's always a "but") I think that this is a slightly overpowered ability. First of all, I would reduce its range to 6" or 12". Secondly, I would require the Shadowseer to have LOS with the unit he's augmenting. And thirdly, I would price this power at about 25 points due to the fact that it makes normal harlequins faster than most vehicles and jump infantry!

I agree with Rasmus.  In its current incarnation (IIRC it used to be much stronger) I haven't had any problems with it.  Why?  On the average board, it will make a unit go an extra seven or so inches in a turn (maybe?).  However, Harlequins will reach the enemy in very few turns.  Therefore, unless you play on a very large board all this power will do is make your forces hit in waves, which is not a good thing!  Is there anything in your experience that counteracts with speculation?

Also, I think that "the hunt" psychic power is a cool idea, but seems difficult to use efficiently, you might want to consider changing its range to 18" and possibly have it used as a shooting attack on a single unit, instead of having it effect every unit in the radius around the Shadowseer.

Really?  I haven't tested 'The Hunt' but given how popular Fury of the Ancients is, it seems to me this is better on a strictly pinning-level basis.  I don't know though.

Anyway... I hope I'm helping with all this. I'll have more rantings to come.

Thanks a lot for your comments!

EDIT:  I just played a game, 1000 points, with the revision.  I took a Shadowseer w/ 10 Harlequins, 6 Harlequins in a Venom, 2 DJs, and a Spiritwalker.  I played against the DE WWP army I've been playtesting on the Dark Eldar board.  The results were somewhat distrubing.  The mission was Scouting Engagement.

First off, I got first turn and moved forward with everything.  Basically, he shot up all the Troupes, while my reserves all came on the board and started slogging away.  I made a HUGE play error with the Venom squad, shooting instead of assaulting, and was therefore wiped out on that flank.  In the meantime my 10 man squad was reduced to one man, who dubiously took down five DE before finally dying.  At this point I had the Spiritwalker, the DJs, and the Shadowseer left.  I was screwed ;).  The DJs and Wraithlord put up a good fight however.  The DJs and Wraithlord wiped down the DE Warrior squad of 16 down to 8, and the Wraithlord took out the Talos, losing itself in the process.  The next turn the DJs died and the Shadowseer assault the DE squad of 8.  He wiped them out, (Dread Mask + Tanglefoot :D) and then, the last model in my army against 18 DE Warriors including Sybarites and Special Weapons weathered the turn of shooting.  Then the impossible happened.  The Shadowseer charged into the remains of a Sniper squad, wiped them out again, Sweeping Advanced into another squad of 10, killed four, the enemy rolled all 1's and 2's for the attacks, and then the Shadowseer WIPED them out.  In other words, my Shadowseer killed 310 points of DE, 26 Warriors, without taking a wound.

However the game was called a draw with only a 57 point advantage for me, and no scoring units left on the board.

Conclusions?  Hit & Fade is too good right now.  One thing I'd consider is changing it to re-rolling failed to-hits, or returning to the way it was.  In addition, the characters are overpowered.  But I don't think we can fix this--in other words, this game was an anomaly.  In addition, I think Shrieker Cannons need to cost more than a Shuriken Cannon!  The power level isn't even close IMHO, but the Shuriken costs more!  Dread Mask is good, but it always was.  All in all I was pretty pleased with the performance of the revision.  If not for my gross play error I would have won.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 23, 2005, 02:19:28 AM
So Furious charge is more powerful than re-rolling? That seems very strange to me, and is not something I have encountered.
I have looked over Impetuousness of Youth again and tweaked it a bit.
As for the cannons - another issue that has to be looked into, I am sure.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 23, 2005, 10:38:17 AM
Ok I've done a bit more thinking and I think Furious Charge has to go.  It upsets the balance between Harlequin's Kisses and Power Weapons.  With Furious Charge thrown into the fray I don't really see myself taking Kisses in equal numbers to Power Weapons, more like 1:2.  I don't think we want to make a Harlequin signature weapon weaker like this.

Also--didn't they errata the Eldar Wraithlord to make it forced to take a heavy weapon?  I don't believe they did the same to the Spiritwalker, so we might want to change this.  On the same topic as the Spiritwalker why are we listing what it can't do instead of what it can? ;)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 23, 2005, 11:21:23 AM
I will look in on teh Hit and Fade and see what can be done about it tomorrow.
As for the wraithlord; yes, it might be a good idea, but I haven't played with the Harlequin Spiritwalker with the tweakedstatline (anyone notice yet?) so I am not sure.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Spaceman Spiff on May 23, 2005, 05:37:11 PM
I agree with Infinity Circuit about Furious Charge; it's way too good. Personally I liked it better the way it was before.

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 23, 2005, 07:04:52 PM
I will look in on teh Hit and Fade and see what can be done about it tomorrow.
As for the wraithlord; yes, it might be a good idea, but I haven't played with the Harlequin Spiritwalker with the tweakedstatline (anyone notice yet?) so I am not sure.

Tweaked statline?  I certainly didn't notice. 

I've been thinking some more about the Furious Charge and now I have my doubts...sorry to be so wishy-washy ;).  I think that Stormgloves are under-used, and so therefore maybe the current Hit & Fade rule would help make some characters that don't just have Powerblades and Harlequin's Kisses.  On the other hand, this does detract from the value of the Kiss as mentioned.  In the end it is all just a balancing act I guess ;)

EDIT: I decided to play 2 400 point games, one with the CJ39/44 rules, and one with the revision.  I took 6 Harlequins w/ PW, HK, Leader w/ Dreadmask, Tangles, Neuro-D in a Venom w/ Holo-field, Fusion Gun (This is my all time favorite squad--I don't leave home without it!) and 10 Mimes.  It turned out I played Necrons, who had 20 Warriors and 3 Scarabs.  The results were surprising.  In the first game, with the old rules, I rolled through one Necron squad with my Venom squad and then lost all but one to the stupid Fearless Scarabs :o.  Meanwhile the Mimes slowly brought down the ranks of the Necron Warriors.  In the end he phased out, and I had 7 Mimes and a Power Weapon Trouper left.

In the second game, it was much closer!  Once again I rolled through a Necron squad, but this time my guys were shredded by Gauss Fire--I assaulted the Warriors from the only angle, but that angle left me in the path of some fire.  However with 10 Mimes left I didn't give up.  I focused all attacks on the remaining squad.  Only needing to take down four guys to phase him out, I focused on this and finally phased him out with 4 Mimes left (phew!)

Conclusions?
-Luck is always an important factor, especially with this kind of fragile army.
-Mimes are really good.  I never used them before but only 10 points for four attacks on the charge is great!
-Hit & Fade is really too good as Furious Charge.  It makes the Power Weapon overpowered IMHO.
-Overall I was pleased with the performance of the Harlequins.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: HarleyQuinn on May 24, 2005, 12:13:32 AM
Out of curiosity, has anyone ever attempted to compare the two rules sets w/ standard die results?  It would eliminate the luck factor and provide a better gauge of how the rules differ.

As an example: If your 6-man Troupe charges a 12-man squad of Space Marines, count 18 of the 24 "to hit" rolls as hits, then take straight odds as "to wound" rolls.  Apply Save rolls the same.  FoF movements are always 3.5".  Morale checks always roll 7 (3+4), unless Dread Mask is used, in which case you can make the third die oscillate between 3 and 4 every other Morale check roll.  Your opponent does the same.

Think this would help identify unbalancing powers easier?

-HQ
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 24, 2005, 12:29:13 AM
That's what I attempted to do, HarleyQuinn, but in a game sense.  I'd recommend reading my last post for the last results.

Just for fun though, on my favorite Harlequin Setup (6 Harlequins, PW, HK, Leader w/ DM, Tangles, Neuro-D) counting in Hit & Fade against SM

Old rules: 2.7 Marines Dead

New Rules: 3.7 Marines Dead

A whole Marine difference in deaths on charge.  Got to go now but that's just a taste ;)

BTW with Mask of Fear and Dread Mask average roll will fail
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 24, 2005, 02:14:26 AM
Hit and fade is changed, and I have uploaded a new copy.
Do you think this will add without overpowering, then?
I also put in the "have to have heavy weapon"-line for the Spiritwalker.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on May 24, 2005, 09:07:28 AM
I don't understand how you could think furious charge is more powerful than re-rolling to wound rolls?
Statistically, you will inflict more wound with a reroll.

I won't bother arguing the point beyond that, I just don't see how the logic works.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 24, 2005, 09:11:41 AM
Well, how about the current incarnation? How do you all like that? It does not lessen the power of the kiss, which furious charge does.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 24, 2005, 09:31:17 AM
Thanks Rasmus, the new list looks good.  I'll try to play a game or two with the new Hit & Fade and see how much it changes things.

Also I think that for the Shadowseer it should say, "as in CJ39, with some changes noted below" as I've glossed over the points change a couple times--but maybe it's just me.  (I remember similar problems with the EoT 13th Company List)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 24, 2005, 09:45:37 AM
Ok. I will look over the wording then.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 24, 2005, 06:22:42 PM
I don't understand how you could think furious charge is more powerful than re-rolling to wound rolls?
Statistically, you will inflict more wound with a reroll.

I won't bother arguing the point beyond that, I just don't see how the logic works.

Furious Charge allows wounding vehicles on charges, allows wounding on Talos on charge, and is the same against T5 as a reroll.  Granted, a reroll is better against T4 but nonetheless the flexibility of Furious Charge makes me against it.

EDIT: In case you still don't understand, look at the DE Agoniser and the Punisher.  IMHO, the Agonizer is like Furious Charge.  Very versatile, and often the same as the Punisher.  The Punisher is like re-rolls to wound--on a strict power level it is better, but in reality not so much.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Manny-Kun on May 24, 2005, 07:13:43 PM
i would have to personally say that furious charge would proabley be best if it stays for a reason i just thought of. on the to wound chart it, a S3 cant make a wound against a T7 enemys. such as an upgraded carnifix. sure there are ways to still kill it but what if that carnifix is left and your best chance units are dead? (DJ is the only one on my mind right now)

well thats the only situation where i can think of furious charge being a need. unless there is an equipment that helps and i am not aware of it...  :o
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 24, 2005, 07:16:21 PM
i would have to personally say that furious charge would proabley be best if it stays for a reason i just thought of. on the to wound chart it, a S3 cant make a wound against a T7 enemys. such as an upgraded carnifix. sure there are ways to still kill it but what if that carnifix is left and your best chance units are dead? (DJ is the only one on my mind right now)

well thats the only situation where i can think of furious charge being a need. unless there is an equipment that helps and i am not aware of it...  :o

Harlequin's Kisses are quite nice in this situation. ;)

The problem is that I think being able to wound T7 enemies, etc. would make Harlequins too strong.  We aren't trying to fix all their problems--the problems are what define a race.  We are instead trying to bring them up to the power level of other armies and make a fun list.  This is why I'm glad that Furious Charge is gone.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Manny-Kun on May 24, 2005, 08:50:09 PM
Yes i would agree the Harlequin kiss is quite a good suggestion for such enemys as the carnifex.

To me, wounding T7 enemys wouldnt make the Harlequin too strong, well considering if it is balance correctly with the rest of the army. I see every army has a way to handle tough models (T7 and armour 14 and such) but i dont see anyway the Harlequins could handle a T7 model.

i will like to state i dont want to make the Harlequin powerful but able to handle such situations. i believe it would be some what unfair if your opponent sends out 3 carnifex with T7 upgrades and would take the fun out of a challanging battle if you are already aware you have no chance agaisnt such an enemy.

hmm but then again theres them venoms with the fusion upgrade..

Also i dont really think a re-roll is really needed considering they have high weapon skill gives them the odds of being able to hit their opponent at a 3+.

sorry if i sound whiney  :'(
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 24, 2005, 08:57:22 PM
I played a game today with the list I have in this forum.  See that post for details.  I used the current re-roll hit Hit & Fade.  I was very pleased.  Furious Charge wasn't needed to kill the Carnifexes--a total of 30 or so Harlequin's Kiss attacks put an end to those beasts :D.  The re-roll hit was balanced, and didn't make the PW more powerful than the Kiss, IMHO.  I didn't see any problems with this incarnation of the list.  (Although I couldn't make cover or assault saves to save my life ;))

Manny-Kun: we appreciate your ruminating, it helps us organize our thoughts :D
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Manny-Kun on May 24, 2005, 09:08:25 PM
squeee. okies ill take you word for it. just with my luck and all ill be seeing alot of T7 models on the battlefield.. 

;D .......  :'(

oh poo i just re-read the Harlequin's Kiss info... i forgot it wounds on a roll of 2+... Whoops-e-dee.. never mind the above..  :-*
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 25, 2005, 05:10:59 AM
I tested out the re-roll hit Hit & Fade as well, and I was pleased with the results. it solves the problem of the Harlequins missing a lot of wounds on 5+ against marines when using powerweapons, as you get a lot more hits to try on, but with furious charge you just bucher them. I am a lot happier with it this way. Why didn't we di this in the first place, and go for wounds instead?
*smacks head*
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on May 25, 2005, 06:48:32 AM
Hmm, yes, I like the new hit & fade.

But I'm not sure my opponents will be as pleased. "Are you kidding me? 41 attacks on the charge, and reroll failed to hit rolls? Never mind the reality of the situation.

And, of course, it's overkill against many squads out there. Guard, gretchin, gaunts, guardians, and similar units, but these squads will be 1/3 of the price as well.

The mechanic works, I agree, though I could wish there was a mechanic that more accurately portrayed pure skill, rather than an insane attack rate, but that was a digression.

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 25, 2005, 09:17:49 AM
It's good to know it's somewhat fixed.

One more slight issue I have with wording: On Masque of the Dark Veil, it says you 'may' start rolling on turn 1 for reserves.  Does mean you don't have to?

Last night, unable to think, I got started on the topic of retinues.  This is pure digresion btw.  I was thinking how Harlequins didn't have retinues, and other races do.  However, then I got to thinking about if retinues would somehow make Harlequins too strong.  Then I looked at Masque of the Dark Veil.  It seems to me the biggest weakness and balancing factor of this Masque is the fact that often troupes arrive without character support or vice-versa.  A retinue would solve this problem, but probably also make the Masque overpowered.  Therefore my conclusion is that we don't want retinues.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 25, 2005, 11:11:10 AM
But there is a Retinue; for the Shadowseer. And yes, I will look over the wording for the Masque of the Dark Veil.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Fenix7729 on May 25, 2005, 07:15:46 PM
hey everyone, ive read most of the post on this thread and just got the latest version of the harly rules.  but im still a little confused.  im not sure if i just didnt read it or if it wasnt talked about but please help me on this one.  does the holo suit still cut the opponents WS in half (rounding up) in CC like it says in CJ 39 along with the other rules or is the opponents WS the stay the same?  and also the mask of fear, does that cut the opponents Ld by 2 or just 1.  CJ39 said 1 but the EoT troll issue said to cut it by 2.  thanks for the help and good to join the site and u all are doing a great job with the codex. 

i really need to know those things by tonight because im going to go and hopefully play my first game in about 4 months tommorow.  CANT WAIT! ;D

Rasmus: can u please PM me the address to the main GW headquarters.  ill help out the harly cause by sending a in a copy of ur codex with all the appropriate names on it. (not mine in other words)  thanks.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 25, 2005, 08:46:17 PM
hey everyone, ive read most of the post on this thread and just got the latest version of the harly rules.  but im still a little confused.  im not sure if i just didnt read it or if it wasnt talked about but please help me on this one.  does the holo suit still cut the opponents WS in half (rounding up) in CC like it says in CJ 39 along with the other rules or is the opponents WS the stay the same?  and also the mask of fear, does that cut the opponents Ld by 2 or just 1.  CJ39 said 1 but the EoT troll issue said to cut it by 2.  thanks for the help and good to join the site and u all are doing a great job with the codex. 

"Special rules...see CJ39 page 6"  This means that the rules for both the Mask of Fear and Holo-suit are the same as they are in CJ39.
Quote

i really need to know those things by tonight because im going to go and hopefully play my first game in about 4 months tommorow.  CANT WAIT! ;D

Wonderful!  Good luck.
Quote

Rasmus: can u please PM me the address to the main GW headquarters.  ill help out the harly cause by sending a in a copy of ur codex with all the appropriate names on it. (not mine in other words)  thanks.
I don't know the address but I'd definetly recommend putting the names of all the forums listed on pg 10 of the codex in the mail, along with Rasmus's name.

EDIT: Yes the Shadowseer has a retinue, but I meant a retinue of troupers, or at least more than three models in the retinue!
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 26, 2005, 02:52:22 AM
Rasmus: can u please PM me the address to the main GW headquarters.  ill help out the harly cause by sending a in a copy of ur codex with all the appropriate names on it. (not mine in other words)  thanks.
  You can find all the adresses you want (depending on who you want your letter to reach) on GWs homepage, under "Contact-information".
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Fenix7729 on May 26, 2005, 06:04:20 PM
ok thanks.  ill get on to mailing a copy of the codex asap.  my game is moved on to tommorow MAYBE which is getting me a little pissed off.  ill play test 1000 pts sooner or later proxy style. 
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 26, 2005, 06:52:18 PM
ok thanks.  ill get on to mailing a copy of the codex asap.  my game is moved on to tommorow MAYBE which is getting me a little pissed off.  ill play test 1000 pts sooner or later proxy style. 

That's too bad...hopefully you can get to play!

I played a game against a local guy's ~20-man Seer Council, 7 Starcannon Ulthwe cheese army.  It was a victory for me, but only because he spread out his council and left his Farseers closest to my charge--you can guess what happened next ;).  I was plagued by horrible rolling all game, whereas my opponent made 8 4+ saves in a row... :(.  Overall I felt the revision performed as needed.  In the past couple games I haven't been having any problems with the revision.  I think it may be near its final stages!
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Fenix7729 on May 26, 2005, 09:00:43 PM
yeah hopefully.  hopefully it wont be like last time when we said it was near the final stage...then 4th edition came out.  im really hoping for tommorow and im gonna make also a 1500 point army tonight and see which one holds up better or if they're cheesy, ect...  ill most likely be facing SM due to the guy thats always there is a major SM fan.  and im talking about the kind of guy that has a different army every other month.  real veteran while this is gonna be my first time with harlys in about 2 years (with only the CJ 39 harlys) and it was an HQ battle only but they had "mercy" on me while everybody had termies as a retinue i had a shadow seer, DJ, and a solitare.  they didnt know wat happened.  wish me luck.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 26, 2005, 09:46:02 PM
yeah hopefully.  hopefully it wont be like last time when we said it was near the final stage...then 4th edition came out.  im really hoping for tommorow and im gonna make also a 1500 point army tonight and see which one holds up better or if they're cheesy, ect...  ill most likely be facing SM due to the guy thats always there is a major SM fan.  and im talking about the kind of guy that has a different army every other month.  real veteran while this is gonna be my first time with harlys in about 2 years (with only the CJ 39 harlys) and it was an HQ battle only but they had "mercy" on me while everybody had termies as a retinue i had a shadow seer, DJ, and a solitare.  they didnt know wat happened.  wish me luck.

Good luck!

One more issue: Under Masque of the Dark Veil it says "may."  What does this mean?

My next task is to look at testing the Masque of the Dark Veil.  I'm a bit worried if the fact that your guys arrive fresh is truly counterbalanced by spreading out the arrival of the army.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 27, 2005, 03:03:51 AM
The "may" is now gone. It was a throwback to the leaked beta-list. Gone now.

And yes, the Veil is a gamble. It may allow you field your entire army within assault-range on the first turn, but it might also kill your entire Masque. If you want to use it you have to match boldness with caution in a very special way. I have had a lot of fun trying it out.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: AngloHarl on May 27, 2005, 06:13:32 AM
You know. I have been reading the revision and I think the Dark Veil thing has the potential to cry Cheese! I can imagine the less mature players saying that this is tantamount to giving the entire space marine army the opportunity to deep strike in turn one with no scatter effects.

I would reccommend that you cannot place the template within your enemies deployment zone on turn one. That way we still have to chip and charge into combat but with Harlies that is not usually an issue anyway. Cos we be fast!!

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 27, 2005, 08:17:02 AM
As I sad; it can have some devastating effect, but it can also do absolutely horribly. I wonder if changing the rolls for the units to appear one "step" to the left would be nice. 6 on the first turn, 5+ on the second, and son on?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 27, 2005, 10:38:44 AM
As I sad; it can have some devastating effect, but it can also do absolutely horribly. I wonder if changing the rolls for the units to appear one "step" to the left would be nice. 6 on the first turn, 5+ on the second, and son on?

On first glance I'd say that this is a poor idea.  It would make the portal too weak in my opinion.  On the other hand, it seems like it could be quite annoying to have your opponent move out of range and then because one squad comes out be unable to move the portal.  For now however I like it how it is.

I'm confused--how can you lose your entire army?  Through the enemy blocking the portal?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Fenix7729 on May 27, 2005, 01:26:35 PM
i think hes talking about that if only one unit comes out at a time then  that one unit that comes out will probably get in assault first turn, but wat happens when that assault fase is done?  the opponent has all guns on you and since the portal is so close to the enemy he'll probably be smart and block it.  then you have to move the portal instead of allowing other units to come through the portal.  by the time another unit comes out the first one is probably toast and thats pretty bad when it was your solitare that came out and got shot up.  about 150 to 250 points down the hole just by that and a 10 man harly squad getting shot up that probably cost you about 300 points isnt fun either.  but if your rolling lucky and your whole army comes in on turn 1 or 2 then hells gonna break loose in your favor.  nothing would be left alive probably.  its a great risk but if you pull it through you wont even let them shoot ya. i like it how it is now.  although thats just my opinion.  well im off to go try out my lists against tau and necrons most likely today.  wish me luck.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 27, 2005, 11:48:37 PM
If I were to construct a Dark Veil army, I would actually focus on units that can't wipe out enemies.  I would take small units with Dread Masks to break the enemy and run into another squad.  This way the problem of getting shot up is alleviated.  Also I believe skimmers can come out of a blocked portal--so Venom mounted squads could help with this problem.  As I look more into it, it appears that it's like the 13th company list--many weaknesses, but answers for all of them.

Good luck fenix!
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 28, 2005, 04:09:56 AM
I had a game with one unit come out in turn 1, get killed, and then the opponent started parking on teh gate, killing the two units in turn 2, and hten blocking it completely. End-game. It is too much a gamble to be an assured gamewinner, even though it may look like a really nasty thing on paper. This is the problem with a lot of the Harlequin-things and the criers of cheese; a lot of the stuff in the list looks really really dangerous, but when on the field of battle it is not that dangerous after all.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 28, 2005, 09:36:28 AM
I had a game with one unit come out in turn 1, get killed, and then the opponent started parking on teh gate, killing the two units in turn 2, and hten blocking it completely. End-game. It is too much a gamble to be an assured gamewinner, even though it may look like a really nasty thing on paper. This is the problem with a lot of the Harlequin-things and the criers of cheese; a lot of the stuff in the list looks really really dangerous, but when on the field of battle it is not that dangerous after all.

Am I correct that the Venom can still come out of the gate?

This is also why it is imperative that we go out and mainstream this list.  If people realize it isn't actually that strong then I'm sure many opinions will change for the better.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 28, 2005, 10:49:49 AM
Yes, the Venom can get through the gate, everything save the looted vehicles can.

I am not that into mainstreaming the list; if I can play with and have fun it is enough for me, and if others can have fun with it too, then that's a bonus, but I am not sure if this is something most people want to play as the "Official Harlequins" this way. It is not really that important, anyway, since GW is not touching this. I have still not gotten any response from my last submission of this over a year ago.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 28, 2005, 11:04:12 AM
Yes, the Venom can get through the gate, everything save the looted vehicles can.

I am not that into mainstreaming the list; if I can play with and have fun it is enough for me, and if others can have fun with it too, then that's a bonus, but I am not sure if this is something most people want to play as the "Official Harlequins" this way. It is not really that important, anyway, since GW is not touching this. I have still not gotten any response from my last submission of this over a year ago.

I think you misunderstand my question.  I'm asking if the gate is blocked, can the Venom's skimmer status allow it to still get out?

I didn't necessarily mean mainstream per-se, I meant go out and actively use it to dispel notions of being overpowered.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 28, 2005, 11:18:07 AM
If the gate is blocked and you can't place the Venom then it is destroyed as well. There are no exceptions here. I might put that in too. Thanks for pointing it out.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Fenix7729 on May 28, 2005, 11:29:41 AM
well yesterday i played two 1000pts games.  great fun but lost both of them.  first game was a 3 way free for all and i tore apart some tau.  after the tau were gone though, the SMs were still there and got wiped.  my solitare alone took down little more than half the tau's army with impetuousness of youth witch REALLY helped.  he left his shas'o out in the open all alone and killed that of course and i just kept running into more and more units until i didnt have anything else to run into, then i got shot up.  that game was the one with the Eldar Online Codex and i think it worked nicely.  

the second game was me and the tau player vs space wolves.  he murdered me and i was using the Eye of Terror rules along with the original rules for harlequins.  i was failing to wound any of his wolves with the freakin harlequin kiss's and i had about some kisses in the army. not just 1 or 2.  my solitare was even failing to wound with a kiss.  i just rolled ones the whole time.  didnt even kill his rune priest witch i did expect him to since my archon in my DE army does every single time in the first turn with a punisher.  but a solitare cant?  thats pretty bad rolling.  i didnt start having good luck until close to the end of the game with only 1 death jester left.  my shadow seer couldnt even kill 2 scouts because i was rolling so bad.  when i had only 1 death jester left i finally started getting 6's and 5's and blew up his predetor along with some of his normal guys, but dang, that game was awful, but fun.

In the end, I like the revision.  no one at my store really understood and hated it even without looking at it but thats because they're a**holes anyways.  anything i bring in there they always make fun of.  so i liked it.  the only 2 people that werent a**holes in the store were my opponents in the first game and they said it was pretty good.  I also like the hit and fade rule.  it balances out greatly for the harlequins because the game i didnt have it, i couldnt hit crap even with my charge bonuses.  so i really needed to reroll the misses on my charge enspecially my solitare.  I like the revision and i like the way things are going.  hopefully rasmus, you'll be more than just "some guy" at my store.  its all come a long way and im glad i could help by playtesting it.  next time ill be ready for anything, since yesterday was my first time playing harlequins.  well, hope this helps.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 28, 2005, 11:38:50 AM
well yesterday i played two 1000pts games.  great fun but lost both of them.  first game was a 3 way free for all and i tore apart some tau.  after the tau were gone though, the SMs were still there and got wiped.  my solitare alone took down little more than half the tau's army with impetuousness of youth witch REALLY helped.  he left his shas'o out in the open all alone and killed that of course and i just kept running into more and more units until i didnt have anything else to run into, then i got shot up.  that game was the one with the Eldar Online Codex and i think it worked nicely. 

the second game was me and the tau player vs space wolves.  he murdered me and i was using the Eye of Terror rules along with the original rules for harlequins.  i was failing to wound any of his wolves with the freakin harlequin kiss's and i had about some kisses in the army. not just 1 or 2.  my solitare was even failing to wound with a kiss.  i just rolled ones the whole time.  didnt even kill his rune priest witch i did expect him to since my archon in my DE army does every single time in the first turn with a punisher.  but a solitare cant?  thats pretty bad rolling.  i didnt start having good luck until close to the end of the game with only 1 death jester left.  my shadow seer couldnt even kill 2 scouts because i was rolling so bad.  when i had only 1 death jester left i finally started getting 6's and 5's and blew up his predetor along with some of his normal guys, but dang, that game was awful, but fun.

In the end, I like the revision.  no one at my store really understood and hated it even without looking at it but thats because they're a**holes anyways.  anything i bring in there they always make fun of.  so i liked it.  the only 2 people that werent a**holes in the store were my opponents in the first game and they said it was pretty good.  I also like the hit and fade rule.  it balances out greatly for the harlequins because the game i didnt have it, i couldnt hit crap even with my charge bonuses.  so i really needed to reroll the misses on my charge enspecially my solitare.  I like the revision and i like the way things are going.  hopefully rasmus, you'll be more than just "some guy" at my store.  its all come a long way and im glad i could help by playtesting it.  next time ill be ready for anything, since yesterday was my first time playing harlequins.  well, hope this helps.

Congratulations!  Would you be interested in posting your lists for critique?

Thanks Rasmus for clearing that up by the way.  I personally feel that like the DE WWP skimmers should still be able to go away, but that might be too powerful.

I'll admit that I lost a game today with the Harlequins, using my 1500 point list posted in this forum.  Then again, I guess I shouldn't be too ashamed of having to fight an Armored Company!  My 4 DJs and 2 Fusion Guns just couldn't hold up to the sheer might of 6 Leman Russes, a Laser Destroyer, a Hellhound, and 2 Sentinels.  I was able to kill the Hellhound and Sentinels early one with Shuriken Pistols :) but the rest I couldn't touch.  Thanks to my DJs making about 8 Cover Saves in a row, my opponent ended the game with an immobilized, Lascannon destroyed Tank Ace and his Laser Destroyer.  However I had nothing left that could harm the tanks.  Alas, there was nothing that the revision could do here!  However it does make me hungry for some more Bright Lances.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 28, 2005, 11:42:33 AM
If you could get with Venoms then you would be safe if you mount everything on Venoms... That would negate the risks with the portal getting blocked.

I like hearing about people losing. If all we got was that people won it would tell us we had been, and still were doing, something very very wrong.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 28, 2005, 12:14:59 PM
I played another game with my 402 point Harlequins force.  This one has a 6-man Venom squad and 10 Mimes.  I rolled over a Dark Angels force today, and rightly so if I might say so myself ;).  My opponent, obsessed with Ravenwing, took only 10 models and a Razorback.  I was able to wipe him out to the man very quickly, losing only a Harlequin Trouper and my Venom in the process.  However luck was on my side--like making 16/20 Shuriken Pistol shots with regular Harlequin ballistic skill.  I might play a rematch against this guy today.

EDIT: Conclusions:  The list is strong, and balanced.  I just realized that I think the Mime Superb Infiltrator rule should be reworded with the Scouts Universal Special Rule--I don't believe it is at the present.  As far as general rules so far I've found that Fleet of Foot makes the new Infiltrator 12" rule overpowered.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Fenix7729 on May 28, 2005, 12:19:10 PM
yeah here's the first list witch was really bad but the second one was a better list and i think it would have done better if i played the second list with eldar online rules.  but i think i would have lost either way, just not by as much.

First List (bad one)
Shadow Seer-Impetuouness of Youth, Veil of Tears, D-field, Dreadmask, 2 Familiars, Harlequin Kill, Stormglove, Neuro Disruptor, Tangle Foot Grenades
He was in the Venom

Solitare-Harlequin Kill, Stormglove, D-Field, Shuriken Pistol, Bio-explosive ammo (just for fun), plasma grenade

5 Harlequins w/3 Fell Blades, Harlequin Kiss, and Power Weapon and leader with storm glove and Harlequin Kiss, all had tanglefoot grenades
In Venom, Venom had holo field.

9 Harlequins- 5 Fell blades, Harlequin Kiss, and Power weapon and leader with storm glove and harlequin kill and all had tanglefoot grenades.

Now before you say anything, I know, its a bad list, even for my first list for the harlequins.  I had way to much stuff on the shadow seer which he shouldnt have.  I shouldv'e put a phase field on the solitare and took alot of crap off of the shadow seer.  i shouldnt have used a leader for my harly troupes and it didnt help having a speeder come up beside my venom and shooting it with a multi melta on the first turn. (small map)  im glad i had the holo field on it or they would have been toasted.  too much wargear was in and not enough people.

Second List (better but still... and old rules too)

Shadow Seer-Harlequin Kiss, Power Blades, Shuriken Pistol

Solitare- D-Field, Harlequin Kiss, Power Blades, Dread Mask, Plasma Grenade, Phase Field, Shuriken Pistol

2 Death Jesters with Brightlances

2 squads of 10 Harlequins with one Harlequin Kiss and one Power Weapon

so these are pretty bad army list i know.  im going to soon play a 1 on 1 game with necrons then tau with my harlequins.  bigger scale too but still proxy models.  glad i could help by losing ;D.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 28, 2005, 01:21:44 PM
First of all the first list has a Shadowseer wtih 3 weapons, as far as I can tell.  A couple of comments: the Shadowseer really doesn't need Veil of Tears if he is in the Venom.  In addition, I don't understand why you like the Phase Field on the Solitaire.  He is strong but not strong enough to take most units by himself.  Also you took WAY too much stuff on your Troupes.  I rarely take Fell blades at all and they are just too expensive.  I know that you know that now you are better at making lists :), but still some comments.  I like the second list much more, aside from the Phase Field.  However your Shadowseer NEEDS a D-Field.

Back to the revision: I'm worried about Mimes.  It just seems bad to me to have a 10 point model with 4 attacks on the charge and Hit & Fade.  My idea?  Reduce them to 0-1 and add a Harlequin Masque, maybe for just 30 points, that makes Troupes 0-1 and Mimes required.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Fenix7729 on May 28, 2005, 01:32:45 PM
yeah i do need a D field on the shadow seer and veil of tears was just in case the venom would get shot down... witch it did.  it came to some use though in the game.  yeah i realized i put way to much crap in my troupes too.  im going to make a 1500 point list soon for fighting tau and necrons. (two completely different races)  wish me luck and ill post the list when i make it.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Manny-Kun on May 28, 2005, 01:39:40 PM
but i thought the shadow seer couldnt use its psychic power while in the venom  ???
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 28, 2005, 01:42:47 PM
Back to the revision: I'm worried about Mimes.  It just seems bad to me to have a 10 point model with 4 attacks on the charge and Hit & Fade.  My idea?  Reduce them to 0-1 and add a Harlequin Masque, maybe for just 30 points, that makes Troupes 0-1 and Mimes required.  Thoughts?
  I think it seems a simpler way is just to increase the cost of the MImes. They will still be a lot cheaper than troupers, but there is no need for something this elaborate.


And Manny-kun: there is no such rule, just that some powers will not affect the Venom.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Manny-Kun on May 28, 2005, 01:46:58 PM
yeah i ment the effect not effecting the venom. (i knew there was a reason why i took viel of darkness off.)

personally i dont think the mime points should increase. personally... :'(
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 28, 2005, 01:49:04 PM
What would you suggest to solve this then?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 28, 2005, 01:52:05 PM
Rasmus this really ought to remain stickied.

Good luck fenix!  I'd recommend adding in a Venom squad, some DJs, and maybe a Jetbike squad to reach that points value.

Rasmus: I personally think that the cost of the Mimes is good now.  My main caveat is that when combined with Troupes they allow a mix of all-around strong and high-attack troop choices.  That's why I suggested the Masque, which might help to make it well, to be precise, less balanced but more reasonable.

EDIT: I just realized we have over 10000 views on this thread!  I find it fascinating that compared to, for example, Eldar players for a change, which has 73 pages, we still have 1000 more views!

EDIT 2: In fact, that is more than any other post I could find on this entire forum besides the Guys & Girls thread!
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 28, 2005, 02:06:34 PM
In that case I would rather see a scrapping of the Mimes completely, and introducing an alternate force of Harlequins with no GH and no SS; lead by a Master mime, in which all Trouper are mimes, and can infiltrate, like the Troll-list. Other limits would be placed on this list as well.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 28, 2005, 02:09:29 PM
In that case I would rather see a scrapping of the Mimes completely, and introducing an alternate force of Harlequins with no GH and no SS; lead by a Master mime, in which all Trouper are mimes, and can infiltrate, like the Troll-list. Other limits would be placed on this list as well.

That's an interesting idea.  I was going for that but with a less radical theme.  I think a Shadowseer should still be included, but Master Mimes are HQ and 1+.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 28, 2005, 02:13:08 PM
So we solve it by making Mimes in the original list 0-1? 0-2? and then introduce the alternate list?

I made something similar with the Squat-list I am making in the Lost&Damned-board.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 28, 2005, 02:45:31 PM
So we solve it by making Mimes in the original list 0-1? 0-2? and then introduce the alternate list?

I made something similar with the Squat-list I am making in the Lost&Damned-board.

I've got to check that out!  I think that Mimes should be 0-1, but maybe 0-2 would also be appropriate.

By the way I played a second game against the Dark Angels.  This time I lost my Venom's Fusion Gun, 2 Troupers, and 9 Mimes but won.  Once again I find Hit & Fade to be working perfectly.  This game also my Flip Belts finally actually made some saves!  However I have yet to face any Death Guard Terminators...
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 28, 2005, 02:56:12 PM
Those will be really tough to crack. With a kiss you might score the wound, but he will just save it, and trying to get the wound with a powerweapon (whoch he still has a 33% chance of saving) is really bad.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 28, 2005, 11:44:33 PM
I played another 400 point game with the same list, beating IG.  Overall I'm really pleased with the list btw, here it is:

6 Troupers w/ Harlequin's Kiss, Power Weapon, Tanglefoot Grenades, Troupe Leader w/ Dread Mask, Tanglefoot Grenades, Venom w/ Fusion Gun, Holo-field
302 points

10 Mimes
100 points

Back on topic: Now I'm starting to wonder about the flip-belt save.  To tell the truth, many of my previous comments ~p. 7 about it were just speculation.  I now wonder if 5+ is too good--hard to belive I know ;).  This is my idea: Make it 6+ against S4 or less, 5+ against S5 or more.  That way it wouldn't make us TOO weak against big boys but still wouldn't be too strong against the rank and file.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 29, 2005, 04:15:10 AM
But then we are adding complexity back into it. There have been numerous suggestions that have been great for the flipbelt, but none as "smooth" as the invulnerable save. Makingit strength-dependant not only makes it a first in the entire ruleset, but also more complex to use, and this is soemthing we need to avoid.
I have seen a more balanced shift in the trials I have made with the 5+ than the 4+. 4+ was too much. Except against wyches.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 29, 2005, 09:38:10 AM
But then we are adding complexity back into it. There have been numerous suggestions that have been great for the flipbelt, but none as "smooth" as the invulnerable save. Makingit strength-dependant not only makes it a first in the entire ruleset, but also more complex to use, and this is soemthing we need to avoid.
I have seen a more balanced shift in the trials I have made with the 5+ than the 4+. 4+ was too much. Except against wyches.

True, quite true.  I wasn't really thinking about the complexity issues, just what I saw as somewhat overpowered.  5+ is definetly more balanced than 4+.  However, I wonder nonetheless if it is balanced enough.  I guess the answer is always...more testing!

EDIT: I was just checking out this thread (http://www.40konline.com/index.php/topic,87330.0.html) and noticed how many people listed Harlequin weapons like Riveblades and the Harlequin's Kiss as their favorite weapons fluff-wise!  Quite interesting IMHO.

EDIT 2: I played two more games today, both using 400 points.  I'm in a league, as you may have noticed.  In the first against Tau, I rolled over them with minimal casualties--5 Mimes and 2 Troupers.  In the second, we decided to make the Fire Warriors pass all their morale checks.  The results were bad for me.  The Fire Warriors held on for three turns, and in the end I only had a Troupe Leader and a Venom left--but against no Tau.  A close call made closer by my horrendous luck on the invulnerable save.  I think it needs to stay the way it is, as against Orks or Kroot you NEED it.

EDIT 3: I'm running out of special fonts! ;)  One more thing--do the Hallucinogen Grenades count as 2:1 outnumbering when facing a walker for the 'free' glancing hit?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on May 29, 2005, 12:21:54 PM
Harlequins biggest problem is not it's great save.

And flamers are still death to harlequins, are they not?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Manny-Kun on May 29, 2005, 01:09:24 PM
anything with a templete eeek! >_< but then again it makes sence.. since they only have cover saves :O
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 29, 2005, 02:16:48 PM
anything with a templete eeek! >_< but then again it makes sence.. since they only have cover saves :O

As far as I know only Barrage and Flamers negate the cover save. 

The thing about flamers is that with Dispersed Formation, you will kill at most 4 Harlequins.  There are probably still going to be 6 hungry Harlequins left to rip apart whoever has the flamer.  If using a Venom, then you won't get touched by flamers if you pull off your moves right.

The thing I'm really scared of is the Hellhound...:)

EDIT: One more thing to worry about--Deep Striking Flamers or Flamers inside transports.  Both are deadly, but avoidable if you play your cards right.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 30, 2005, 01:52:30 AM
Normal coversave: anything using the template (the drop) and sometimes barrage.
Harlequin coversave: anything using the template or either-side blast.

This is a balance-thing, of course.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on May 30, 2005, 09:26:15 AM
Normal coversave: anything using the template (the drop) and sometimes barrage.
Harlequin coversave: anything using the template or either-side blast.

This is a balance-thing, of course.

Definetly the correct thing.  Of course now I have another question.  Does the cover save work against blasts that measure radius in inches, for example the explosion of a vehicle?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on May 30, 2005, 10:22:10 AM
Coversaves apply in that instance. But they shouldn't. Or rather, Holofield should not work as ordinary Coversave. Because it's not cover. It's an optical illusion.

EDIT:

Ok, I've finally decided upon how I think it's best to solve the problem with the fields, no CC save that also follows fluff.

Holo field: Any model shooting at a model with a holofield has to pass a Nightfight test to check if he/she can spot the harlequin. In addition, any opponent fighting a model equipped with a holo field halves his WS rounding up. (or is it down).

All harlequins are equipped with refractor field, that give a 5+ invunerable save. Mimics, troupe leaders and IC can choose to upgrade to a Conversion field for +10 pts.

They will no longer get the flip belt save in CC, but have the 5+/4+ fields.

I'd like your opinions on this?

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on June 1, 2005, 01:16:54 PM
1. It increases complexity a LOT. IN a large engagement we are talking about a dozen night-fight-rolls per turn, of every game. That would be taxing.
2. The Harlequins never sported Refractorfields as a carte blanche like that, and even though it looks nice, it is still moving away from the original idea.
And in the end, it is just removing a coversave that gets removed anyway, for no reason other than to add complexity. I cannot say I am a fan of added complexity at this point :)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on June 1, 2005, 01:20:56 PM
1. I see your point on compexity. It would be alot of rolls...
2. No, they did not, but it is a compromise though. It gives them a save that works all over, though. I just cannot like the fact that any simpleton with a flamer can toast easily 100+ points of harlies in a single go.

Back to the drawing board, (WHY did they HAVE to remove negative to hit modifers. It allowed for more options!!) No change of giving it such a rule I suppose?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Fenix7729 on June 1, 2005, 05:56:33 PM
Roy: when you asked why did they have to get rid of the negative to hit modifiers, what did you mean by that?  Did you mean the opponents WS is cut in half in CC, or for example,  just a -1 to your opponents WS or dice roll? 
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on June 1, 2005, 06:01:12 PM
Roy: when you asked why did they have to get rid of the negative to hit modifiers, what did you mean by that?  Did you mean the opponents WS is cut in half in CC, or for example,  just a -1 to your opponents WS or dice roll? 

No, back in the days of 2nd edition, cover saves did not work as they do now. Cover made a unit more difficult to hit with shooting. Soft Cover gave a -1 modifer, hard cover -2. Runnig over 10" caused another -1 and Holofield causes -2. The Ranger Camelioline gave a -1 negative modifer as well.

Basicallly, it was a game mechanic that made things harder to hit. But in 3d ed, they decided to make the rules simpler. Oversimplified in my opinion. Now we have alot of weird rules to represent the same thing.

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Fenix7729 on June 1, 2005, 06:10:56 PM
Ah i c.  I didn't ever play 2nd edition.  3rd edition is when i started playing.  That wouldnt be a bad idea, but does the modifier apply to the dice roll or the shooters BS?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on June 1, 2005, 06:14:23 PM
Ah i c.  I didn't ever play 2nd edition.  3rd edition is when i started playing.  That wouldnt be a bad idea, but does the modifier apply to the dice roll or the shooters BS?

It applies to the dice roll. But don't get worked up. GW removed it, and will not reintroduce it until most people have forgotten such a thing ever existed. Like in 7th ed. :P
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Fenix7729 on June 1, 2005, 06:23:06 PM
thatll be awhile.  eh, i only have to wait about 20 years for 7th edition, CANT WAIT!  lol, anyways.  Why not just give all harlequins a 5+ invulnerable and the D-Field increases the invulnerable save to 4+?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on June 1, 2005, 06:29:12 PM
If simplistic is the key, a 4+ invunerable save for the field would be easier than a coversave, and flipbelt save.
It would make me fear template weapons alot less, that's for sure. But such a save might not be very fluffy.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Ryko on June 1, 2005, 09:16:25 PM
i like the Dfield having to hit on 6, because if you can't see someone because of all the shifting colours, you can only hit through sheer luck. i do think something should be done regarding the save though. just because you can't see someone doesn't mean that if you hit it might not hurt them because their colours are shifted. maybe haveing the holo suit makes the enemies hit on a certain dice roll (you would haev to test to see if 4 is too easy or is 5+ is too cheap)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on June 1, 2005, 10:32:15 PM
Roy: when you asked why did they have to get rid of the negative to hit modifiers, what did you mean by that?  Did you mean the opponents WS is cut in half in CC, or for example,  just a -1 to your opponents WS or dice roll? 

No, back in the days of 2nd edition, cover saves did not work as they do now. Cover made a unit more difficult to hit with shooting. Soft Cover gave a -1 modifer, hard cover -2. Runnig over 10" caused another -1 and Holofield causes -2. The Ranger Camelioline gave a -1 negative modifer as well.

Basicallly, it was a game mechanic that made things harder to hit. But in 3d ed, they decided to make the rules simpler. Oversimplified in my opinion. Now we have alot of weird rules to represent the same thing.



This is the way it works in Fantasy...I personally prefer it to the current way.

1. It increases complexity a LOT. IN a large engagement we are talking about a dozen night-fight-rolls per turn, of every game. That would be taxing.

But isn't this exactly the way Grey Knights work with The Shrouding?  I wouldn't be so quick to discount it as unfeasible.

Nonetheless I prefer the current way--Roy's suggestion would also require reworking of Misdirection, and I don't see anyway to change that.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on June 2, 2005, 03:27:34 AM
But isn't this exactly the way Grey Knights work with The Shrouding?  I wouldn't be so quick to discount it as unfeasible.
   Yes it is, and if you have ever played a larger engagement against that you know how much of a pain it is, and why people will go "are you playing those guys again? Awww man!" and then not play them. I have seen that happen too.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: JaedenKaal on June 4, 2005, 11:30:59 AM
Just a few thoughts, having read all 32 pages of the thread *pant, pant*

If you're still having troubles with bio-explosive ammo, I offer what might be considered a less complex solution.  Rather than using a template to represent the explosion, assign d3 extra hits to the unit, which wound on a roll of 4+ and ignore armor.  Due to the majority toughness/armor save rules, this change should not affect the overall impact of the weapon (ie, it'll be really hard to have the weakest model in the squad die and take out a terminator in the explosion).  It's a little easier than trying to figure out who died to the explosive shot, I think.  If you think it's necessary, add a line that states that each surviving model in the squad can only be hint once by this effect, even if there are less survivors than extra hits.

Second... am I reading the powerglove entry correctly?  It seems to me that a model with a powerglove attacking a multi-wound creature with, say, T6, automatically kills the model if it wounds it once, since it can only wound on a 6+.  Perhaps this should be changed to trigger on the to-hit roll (rather like rending) so something like "If a stormglove attack hits on a roll of 6, a successful wound will kill the opposing model outright, regardless of wounds (the model is allowed an invunerable save as normal)"

Anyways.  Other than that, congratulations to Rasmus and all who contributed their ideas, this is excellent work
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on June 4, 2005, 11:57:49 AM
For the bio-explosives: This would mean a scattered troupe (like Harlequins) would suffer as much as packed-up guardsmen. That does not seem right.
There is no powerglove in the list. I am guessing you are referring to the Stormglove, and I can look over the wording on it.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on June 4, 2005, 12:02:41 PM
A powerglove was the Eldar Equivalent of a powerfist back in 2nd ed. If I remember correctly, is functioned as a powerfist, but didn't have any negative side effect. (or am I mixing up things here?).

Alot of the Harlequin models are equipped with Power GLoves though. Should we add it as wargear? An Eldar powerglove would work at S 6 only.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on June 4, 2005, 01:22:43 PM
Just a few thoughts, having read all 32 pages of the thread *pant, pant*

If you're still having troubles with bio-explosive ammo, I offer what might be considered a less complex solution.  Rather than using a template to represent the explosion, assign d3 extra hits to the unit, which wound on a roll of 4+ and ignore armor.  Due to the majority toughness/armor save rules, this change should not affect the overall impact of the weapon (ie, it'll be really hard to have the weakest model in the squad die and take out a terminator in the explosion).  It's a little easier than trying to figure out who died to the explosive shot, I think.  If you think it's necessary, add a line that states that each surviving model in the squad can only be hint once by this effect, even if there are less survivors than extra hits.

Second... am I reading the powerglove entry correctly?  It seems to me that a model with a powerglove attacking a multi-wound creature with, say, T6, automatically kills the model if it wounds it once, since it can only wound on a 6+.  Perhaps this should be changed to trigger on the to-hit roll (rather like rending) so something like "If a stormglove attack hits on a roll of 6, a successful wound will kill the opposing model outright, regardless of wounds (the model is allowed an invunerable save as normal)"

Anyways.  Other than that, congratulations to Rasmus and all who contributed their ideas, this is excellent work

I salute you!  Not many people have the self-control to read through all the posts.

I finally realized what's been bugging me--Nightshade has a powerglove!  It is from this that the issue stems I believe.

EDIT: "End-hand--this weapon acts as a powerglove".  This needs to be fixed I believe.  In fact I think I brought it up before ;)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on June 4, 2005, 02:19:41 PM
The Harlequins did have powergloves back in RT, (however, not in 2nd ed) and it was not in the leaked beta or the CJ-beta. I don't think adding them will do a lot for the Harlequins, but if you are interested in trying it out, then please feel free, and do let us know how it goes.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: subrace on June 4, 2005, 09:25:17 PM
The new special rules for flip belts and "hit and fade" i think are ridiculous.  The point of the Harlequins is to walk into a squad and annihilate them, then walk out, not letting the other player even have a chance to fight back.  Thats why they have so many attacks and thats why they have no armour save in CC.  Sure its challenging, but Harlies arent SMs.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Fenix7729 on June 4, 2005, 10:05:14 PM
subrace: The whole point to the whole revision is to make the harlequins a balanced force.  right now the harlequin force is broken.  if any army can just walk in there and kill everything with no resistance then what fun would that be?  even the fluff of harlequins says they dodge attacks left and right.  if you learn a way of fighting you're not just going to learn how to hit but you're also going to learn how to defend.  That's what being a good fighter is, learn your enemy, learn to attack, and learn to defend.  10 SMs might survive your 40 attacks, then what?  your whole 250+ of a squad is toast probably without the revision.  (happened to me more than once)  If you dont like the revision you dont have to play it.  suggestions would be nice on how to make the revision better for thats what we've been doing here. 
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: JaedenKaal on June 4, 2005, 10:39:59 PM
Er, stormglove, yeah.  My bad.  And yeah, what exactly would Nightshade's powerglove do?

Yes, I realise that the d3 hits thing is unaffected by squad density... I was just saying it would be an easier method than assigning a blast template.  Perhaps not in the 4th ed rules... so nevermind, I suppose.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on June 5, 2005, 05:03:08 AM
subrace - Welcome to 40konline. Tell me; how would you balance out the fact that the Harlequins get killed in cc then? Is there a way we are missing?
JaedenKaal - I will fix the wording on the Stormglove. Nightshades powerglove would be a poserfist. I will change its name too. Thanks for pointing it out.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on June 5, 2005, 11:09:28 AM
subrace - Welcome to 40konline. Tell me; how would you balance out the fact that the Harlequins get killed in cc then? Is there a way we are missing?
JaedenKaal - I will fix the wording on the Stormglove. Nightshades powerglove would be a poserfist. I will change its name too. Thanks for pointing it out.

Fear Nightshade and his mighty poserfist :P
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Destoroyah on June 5, 2005, 11:55:09 AM
All I have to say is wow, Rasmus. You've clearly put a lot of work into this and in the process have created some very unique rules that have me rather excited. I'd love to see the official return of the Harlequins since they are the coolest form of the Eldar race and I think that your rules would make an excellent army list for a GW codex.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on June 5, 2005, 12:23:30 PM
Thank you. We have worked very hard at this.
If you want to see the Harlequins return; submit something to GW, a pice of fluff, a battlereport, anything. Everything counts.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on June 5, 2005, 01:50:17 PM
The third sentence of Flip-belts should probably read, "This too reflects the superior speed and agility of the Harlequins."

I hate to break it to you but now I'm starting to wonder if Tanglefoot Grenades really should be 4 points--the new rules make it so Tanglefoots essentially auto-catch the enemy.   For example an enemy with I4 would only have a 1/12 chance of escaping by my count--a bit much for 3 points.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Destoroyah on June 5, 2005, 03:35:46 PM
Y'know, I would. Good thing my friend has some Harlequins and a buttload of Eldar for proxies. I think he and I are gonna get together, play a BUNCH of 40k and send battle reports to GW.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on June 5, 2005, 08:27:02 PM
Y'know, I would. Good thing my friend has some Harlequins and a buttload of Eldar for proxies. I think he and I are gonna get together, play a BUNCH of 40k and send battle reports to GW.

That's a brilliant idea. Take pictures as well, and let GW know that the list definatively isn't in any really playable shape. Ask them to please make som official rules etc. From what I gather, alot of people at GW like the harlies, and want a list for them, they just never seem to prioritize them. They need an incentive to do so. The more people that send in reports, the more incentive they have to make a complete list.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Destoroyah on June 5, 2005, 08:31:05 PM
Eldar needs to be revived BADLY. I think it's time they had some time in the limelight. I don't wanna see a new Space Marine model for five years.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on June 5, 2005, 08:33:48 PM
Eldar needs to be revived BADLY. I think it's time they had some time in the limelight. I don't wanna see a new Space Marine model for five years.

Work has started, and phil said he'd like to do the harlies in a chapter approved after the Eldar dex was done. But I'd rather wait a year longer for the codex, then get another botched work of it.

the SMurfs are GW wonderchild, and you'll be seing releases for them at least once a year, and likely more.

Oh, and you should probably fix the link in your Forum Awards banner to direct people to the polls :)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Destoroyah on June 5, 2005, 08:39:51 PM
I'm aware of the Eldar revision, but I did no know about the Chapter Approved bit. I would also rather wait a year for the codex - Harlies and Ulthwe are the only Eldar I'd play. Trouble is - Harlies aren't official and there are way too many Ulthwe armies out there.
I ain't directin' no one nowhere. Whaddya think I am?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on June 5, 2005, 10:13:53 PM
I'm aware of the Eldar revision, but I did no know about the Chapter Approved bit. I would also rather wait a year for the codex - Harlies and Ulthwe are the only Eldar I'd play. Trouble is - Harlies aren't official and there are way too many Ulthwe armies out there.
I ain't directin' no one nowhere. Whaddya think I am?

Some guy with a formerly broken banner in their sig?  ;)

Roy where did you get this information about Chapter Approved?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on June 6, 2005, 05:29:37 AM
Quote from: InfinityCircuit
Some guy with a formerly broken banner in their sig?  ;)

Well, just that his forum awards banner link to the locked nominations thread, rather than the polls, (like mine does).

Quote from: InfinityCircuit
Roy where did you get this information about Chapter Approved?

Phil Kelly said so when asked at GD Atlanta 2005. Gav has earlier said in an interview with dysartes that it's not an if with the harlies, but rather a how and when.

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: AngloHarl on June 6, 2005, 07:29:39 AM
Mister Kelly repeated the Chapter Approved Comment at Warhammer World a coupla months ago.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on June 7, 2005, 09:31:50 AM
The third sentence of Flip-belts should probably read, "This too reflects the superior speed and agility of the Harlequins.

This still needs to be fixed, and one more thing:

Under Fell Blade the capitalization needs to be consistent.

Under Mime Disruption, I think it is unclear if you role for each Mime unit in your army or each Mime unit on the table.

Sorry to nag but I wasn't sure if you just missed it!
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on June 7, 2005, 09:40:02 AM
This has been fixed, but not uploaded yet. I can do it in a few hours or so.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: subrace on June 8, 2005, 05:48:54 PM
alright, as a suggestion to my earlier post, what if you make it so any squad can equip dominoe fields.  That would cost a lot, so maybe lower the cost for the squads or for the d-field--and then make it less powerful (like they can hit on a roll of 5 or 6 in CC).
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on June 8, 2005, 05:55:45 PM
alright, as a suggestion to my earlier post, what if you make it so any squad can equip dominoe fields.  That would cost a lot, so maybe lower the cost for the squads or for the d-field--and then make it less powerful (like they can hit on a roll of 5 or 6 in CC).

Most enemy units only hit harlequins on a 5+ as it is...
With the Holofield, they halve their WS.

Having D-fields on the is just senseless, and far too expensive. The fact that they are so hard to hit in the first place is what makes up for having no armour, (in the CJ lists at least).

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on June 9, 2005, 11:44:28 PM
alright, as a suggestion to my earlier post, what if you make it so any squad can equip dominoe fields.  That would cost a lot, so maybe lower the cost for the squads or for the d-field--and then make it less powerful (like they can hit on a roll of 5 or 6 in CC).

Most enemy units only hit harlequins on a 5+ as it is...
With the Holofield, they halve their WS.

Having D-fields on the is just senseless, and far too expensive. The fact that they are so hard to hit in the first place is what makes up for having no armour, (in the CJ lists at least).



I completely agree.  The only time I could see the Domino Field idea being useful would be against something like an Avatar which already has high WS.  Then again, such a creature could easily be taken down beforehand.  Therefore I think adding in this option would add another layer of uneeded complexity to the rules.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: JaedenKaal on June 10, 2005, 12:12:41 AM
Ah, however, the domino field is also effective (albiet partially) against units with the Preferred Enemy rule, and units with even better rules (Kharne).  While we're at it, I'd change the ruling so that rather than being effective half the time (a lot of pointless die-rolling), D-fields and special to-hit rules cancel each other out.  IE the unit hits normally (with it's weapon skill halved, as per the holo field), instead of hitting on a 3+ with it's own rules, or hitting on a 6+ as per the D-field
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on June 10, 2005, 01:55:03 AM
That lends to another problem though; we are setting a precedent. There is nothing else in the rules that state that special rules are simply "cancelled out" in that fashion. And there are not that many situations where you need to roll off like that anyway.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: JaedenKaal on June 10, 2005, 02:14:38 AM
I suppose.  Yeah, precedents are bad.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on June 12, 2005, 11:53:54 AM
I realize this might not be a very popular idea, but neuro disruptors probably shouldn't work against necrons. They are after all not biological creatures.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on June 12, 2005, 05:12:48 PM
I completely agree with Rasmus here.  However, don't Banshee Masks 'cancel out' enemy always strikes first in the same way suggested?

Roy I don't think we want to open up a whole new are with the Neuro Disruptor.  If we don't allow them to work against biological creatures, what about against vehicles without creatures inside them--like a Defiler or Monolith?  Perhaps it is better to just turn our heads instead of producing even more problems.

Sometimes I play a game with Harlequins and wonder--are Hit & Fade and the new Flip Belt rules really necessary?  Although it was a small game using the CJ39 rules, I nonetheless rolled over the enemy Dark Angels--piloted by a player more experienced than I.  Then again, it might have been a different situation against Daemonhunters, for example.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: JaedenKaal on June 12, 2005, 10:47:48 PM
Yeah, Roy, iunno, there's a whole section in the necron codex about how necrons are affected by everything even if it seems like it wouldn't work on a necron.  Note, of course, that necrons are only wounded on 6's by neural shredders.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on June 13, 2005, 02:12:36 AM
I realized it wouldn't be popular, and I suppose nothing that should be changed as such, at least not if the Callidus assassin stay the same.

Just seems to me it shouldn't work.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on June 14, 2005, 10:19:26 AM
We have now passed the EO Exodites Project in posts!

I realized it wouldn't be popular, and I suppose nothing that should be changed as such, at least not if the Callidus assassin stay the same.

Just seems to me it shouldn't work.
I agree but it seems once again we are stuck by keeping the rules simple.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on June 14, 2005, 10:50:02 AM
I would rather see the list simple and playable rather than "accurate representation" and unplayable.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Destoroyah on June 14, 2005, 11:31:20 AM
Well, my friend and I have been playtesting with your rules and we really like 'em. We think they're actually pretty balanced.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: HarleyQuinn on June 16, 2005, 01:51:23 AM
Since you said we could suggest, here are a few I have for the 4th Ed. EO codex.   ;D

1) For the Flip Belt, I really don't like the idea of the 5+ Invulnerable save.  It seems overpowered to me, especially with opponents having to divide their WS in half due to the holo-suit.  Consider: the vast majority of opponents need a 5+ to hit.  That's tough enough as it is.  If you really want to keep an invulnerable save, at least lower the save to a 6+ Invulnerable.

1A) One proposal I'm making for my league's next season is the following: When consolidating after winning an assault, Harlequins roll 2D6 and move a number of inches equal to the highest result.   It reflects their acrobatics and ability to deal a killing blow on the move.

2) Ditch the Hit and Fade if you're keeping the Invulnerable save.  Too many gimmicks stacked together.

3) Should you decide to omit the Invulnerable save mentioned in (1), consider this addition for D-field: A Troupe Leader equipped with a domino field may make an opponent in close combat need sixes to hit, but any Wounds inflicted must first be applied to the Troupe Leader before spilling over to other models in the Troupe. It never made sense to me that a Troupe Leader could buy it but not really benefit from it unless he was the last survivor.  At least give the player an option to risk it.  Besides, I see a Leader as someone who's willing to lead the charge and set an example for the rest of the squad.

4) For Tanglefoot grenades, you should stipulate that it's on the first full round only.  I don't see Harlies throwing additional grenades during a close combat.  They already get all the perks from the Flip Belt and Holo-suit.

5) I don't like the Familiar Group, mostly because they seem inconsistent and grossly underpointed for what they do.  One Benethai seems appropriately pointed at 25 (18pts for the Fusion pistol and 7pts for the +1A).  But the additional Benethai fall apart from there.  How do you justify giving an additional Fusion pistol and +1WS for only 10pts?  Here's a chart detailing the benefits you've given for each level:

#     COST     SHOOT                         BONUSES                       FP COST          BONUS COST          UNDERCHARGE
1       25         Pistol                               +1A                                 18                      7                           0
2       35         Assault 2                      +1A, +1WS                           36                     14                         15
3       45         Assault 3               +1A, +1WS, Far Reach                  54                     21                         30
4       65         Assault 4      +1A, +1WS, Far Reach, 2nd Psychic        72                     28                         35

If you're going to give these benefits, at least make it reasonable for other players to accept when they read it.  Otherwise it comes off extremely cheesy.  Even the assumption that each bonus is 7pts seems low, particularly for the psychic benefits.

Just my thoughts.

-HQ
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on June 16, 2005, 03:35:15 AM
Since you said we could suggest, here are a few I have for the 4th Ed. EO codex.   ;D

1) For the Flip Belt, I really don't like the idea of the 5+ Invulnerable save.  It seems overpowered to me, especially with opponents having to divide their WS in half due to the holo-suit.  Consider: the vast majority of opponents need a 5+ to hit.  That's tough enough as it is.  If you really want to keep an invulnerable save, at least lower the save to a 6+ Invulnerable.
   Against any cc-army the harlequins fall like nothing else without the save. Wyches (priced at less than 50% of a harlequin trouper, makes short owrk of them, and this does not work out too well as the Harlequins are supposed to be good at what they do. That is why the save it appropriate. The 4+ was dropped to 5+ and in my testing this has worked out a lot better.

Quote
1A) One proposal I'm making for my league's next season is the following: When consolidating after winning an assault, Harlequins roll 2D6 and move a number of inches equal to the highest result.   It reflects their acrobatics and ability to deal a killing blow on the move.
   That makes sense.

Quote
2) Ditch the Hit and Fade if you're keeping the Invulnerable save.  Too many gimmicks stacked together.
   Without it the Harlequins' hurt marines far too little, compared, again, to their cost. A far cheaper scorpion has a better record despite lower WS. So something is needed. If you have a suggestion on how to fix this problem.

Quote
3) Should you decide to omit the Invulnerable save mentioned in (1), consider this addition for D-field: A Troupe Leader equipped with a domino field may make an opponent in close combat need sixes to hit, but any Wounds inflicted must first be applied to the Troupe Leader before spilling over to other models in the Troupe. It never made sense to me that a Troupe Leader could buy it but not really benefit from it unless he was the last survivor.  At least give the player an option to risk it.  Besides, I see a Leader as someone who's willing to lead the charge and set an example for the rest of the squad.
  D-fields should be made "Ind character-only" instead. it would just save all this bother.

Quote
4) For Tanglefoot grenades, you should stipulate that it's on the first full round only.  I don't see Harlies throwing additional grenades during a close combat.  They already get all the perks from the Flip Belt and Holo-suit.
   But the grenades are tossed when the enemy flees, so if the enemy run in turn 2 the Harlequins can't toss it after them as they run? That seems odd. Should Haywires, likewise, and Hallucinogen, and krak for other races, be limited to first turn?

Quote
5) I don't like the Familiar Group, mostly because they seem inconsistent and grossly underpointed for what they do.  One Benethai seems appropriately pointed at 25 (18pts for the Fusion pistol and 7pts for the +1A).  But the additional Benethai fall apart from there.  How do you justify giving an additional Fusion pistol and +1WS for only 10pts?  Here's a chart detailing the benefits you've given for each level:
   The thing with the familiargroup is that yes, it can be quite the devastating thing, but it adds a LOT of points to an allready pricey character. With 4 Benathai and two powers along with the rest of the gear it costs a LOT of points, and with a single missile taking him out, or heaven forbid someone smacks you with an ordnance, it is all gone in an instance. It is not a game-winner, and the costeven without your propsed increase, makes the SS a very pricey target. How do you suppose to counteract this?

Thank you for you comments so far.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: HarleyQuinn on June 17, 2005, 03:24:36 AM
Against any cc-army the harlequins fall like nothing else without the save. Wyches (priced at less than 50% of a harlequin trouper, makes short owrk of them, and this does not work out too well as the Harlequins are supposed to be good at what they do. That is why the save it appropriate. The 4+ was dropped to 5+ and in my testing this has worked out a lot better.

I suppose so, but it still seems overbalanced to me.  I guess the main complaint I have is that every army has an achilles' heel.  As the Harlie's "heel" is no armour save, giving them an Invulnerable save makes it more forgiving learning how to play the army well.  *shrugs* Maybe it's just me.

Regarding Hit and Fade:
Quote
Without it the Harlequins' hurt marines far too little, compared, again, to their cost. A far cheaper scorpion has a better record despite lower WS. So something is needed. If you have a suggestion on how to fix this problem.
Maybe, but it gives Harlies a HUGE advantage over everyone else.  Consider Tyranids with a 5+ armour save.  Giving Harlies the ability to reroll missed to hit rolls on the charge absolutely negates them, making what should be an equivalent army (based on their speed) appear amateur.

What about developing one of the power weapons with a fixed 4+ to wound roll?  That would balance it out a bit, give players the option of arming as many models as they can with it, and leaving this off the list against weakly armored forces.  The benefit could be counterbalanced by charging a little more for the weapon.  Maybe not a popular suggestion, but you asked for an alternative.  :D

Quote
D-fields should be made "Ind character-only" instead. it would just save all this bother.
Agreed.  I still like the strategic option of sacrificing a leader to gain an early advantage.

Quote
But the grenades are tossed when the enemy flees, so if the enemy run in turn 2 the Harlequins can't toss it after them as they run? That seems odd. Should Haywires, likewise, and Hallucinogen, and krak for other races, be limited to first turn?
Good point, but relegate this option to Tanglefoots and Haywires only.  If I were in a combat, I'd throw a Tanglefoot over a Hallucinogen any day.  Making a squad see more Harlies than are really there will only make them run faster.  :P  Krak and Plasmas are pretty worthless after the first round.

Quote
The thing with the familiargroup is that yes, it can be quite the devastating thing, but it adds a LOT of points to an allready pricey character. With 4 Benathai and two powers along with the rest of the gear it costs a LOT of points, and with a single missile taking him out, or heaven forbid someone smacks you with an ordnance, it is all gone in an instance. It is not a game-winner, and the costeven without your propsed increase, makes the SS a very pricey target. How do you suppose to counteract this?

Not clear on what your question is, but I'm guessing that you'd like me to elaborate my problem (?).  It's not so much the cost and ease of destruction, but imagine putting the SS on a jetbike.  For one, he gets a 3+ armour save, which will keep him around that much longer.  Now imagine him attached to a jetbike squad.  Safe among the numbers, he can get w/in 6" of a vehicle and fire up to 5 Fusion weapons at it (4 Benethai + FP on SS)?  FAR too powerful, and easily obscured enough to do significant damage before he gets taken out.

At least consider diminishing the weapon from a Fusion Pistol to a Shuriken Pistol (Plasma Pistol at the best), and decrease the limit from 4 to 3 (b/c of the 12" range on the pistol).  Stylistically, I like the idea of a gang of acrobats lobbing haywires at vehicles over "Hardboiled" action stars shooting as they run alongside their tank target.   ;D

-HQ
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Fenix7729 on June 23, 2005, 12:05:22 PM
well if you do put your SS on a jetbike with 4 benathai then that means your only going to 12" to shoot or you can take the extra boost and go 24" but that also means your a sitting a duck for a turn also for you cant shoot or assault the turn you do that.  then if your opponent has any common sense he'll move his 1 tank out of range, and even if you do destroy the tank, that means your out in the open because you had to get so close to the tank to destroy it and all guns are pointed at you.  you cant shoot at one thing and assault another.  remember, you must assault what you shoot at.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: HarleyQuinn on June 23, 2005, 03:29:36 PM
well if you do put your SS on a jetbike with 4 benathai then that means your only going to 12" to shoot or you can take the extra boost and go 24" but that also means your a sitting a duck for a turn also for you cant shoot or assault the turn you do that.  then if your opponent has any common sense he'll move his 1 tank out of range, and even if you do destroy the tank, that means your out in the open because you had to get so close to the tank to destroy it and all guns are pointed at you.  you cant shoot at one thing and assault another.  remember, you must assault what you shoot at.

It wasn't the initial move I was concerned about w/ the SS on a jetbike, but that the SS on a jetbike can attach to a Jetbike Squadron.  Getting lost in numbers increases the odds that the SS survives to do serious damage, and putting him on a jetbike also gives a 3+ save he wouldn't otherwise have.

-HQ
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 5, 2005, 04:22:41 AM
Unfortunately I'm in Germany in an internet cafe, so some typing maz be screwed up bz the different letter positions that I don't wish to waste money looking at.  It appears that z=y in this case.

One of the main reasons I see for the 5+ invulnerable is that even if the enemz can only hit on a 5+, cheap opponents like Kroot can simply swamp the Harlequins with attacks, and the Harlequins don't have enough attacks in the first place to make a big enough dent in the Kroot.  Therefore the invul is introduced as a sort of catch all.

Got to go now I will replz to the rest in 15 hours when Iäm back in the states!
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Baharroth. on July 5, 2005, 11:05:49 AM
First with the fimilar guys.....if you have 4 of them.....65, plus SS....50...then the powers.....20-40 is, Then the wargear.....most liky around......40ish more points......your looking at like roughly 200 for a single model.....OH plus the points for the H. Warlock....if you get one....
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Fenix7729 on July 5, 2005, 01:24:06 PM
plus if you really want to spend your turns blowing up a tank thats worth (probably) around up to 250 points.  i wouldnt want to spend my 200 point shadowseer and whole jetbike squad to go blow up a land raider or a leman russ, thats what my death jesters are for.  if you stand there for a turn since you blew up a tank, then your a sitting duck and every gun is going to be pointed at your SS and jetbike squad.  not a good thing, enspecially if your facing tau or IG.  thats about 500+ points for everything down the toilet because you wanted to blow up a tank.  i rather spend my SS+jetbikes on something more costly for the opposing team.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Baharroth. on July 5, 2005, 07:20:05 PM
lol i was facing tau and he had 3 hammerheads......an d he cared so much for his pathfinders with railrifles..... so....i had my mimes take care of the pathfinders while the SS and his dancing freinds went three inches away from his tank and blew it up!!!......the tank was infront of some fire warroirs so i had my unit of troupes run and got them stuck in combat.....so....it was like.....three squads gone and when the tank blew up it blocked LoS from every thing else but the fire warroirs (locked in CC for doom) and the pathfinders....(also locked in CC for doom).....i totaled 2 hammerheads......in all i just dont feel like posting the rest of what happened
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 6, 2005, 09:24:49 AM
Against any cc-army the harlequins fall like nothing else without the save. Wyches (priced at less than 50% of a harlequin trouper, makes short owrk of them, and this does not work out too well as the Harlequins are supposed to be good at what they do. That is why the save it appropriate. The 4+ was dropped to 5+ and in my testing this has worked out a lot better.

I suppose so, but it still seems overbalanced to me.  I guess the main complaint I have is that every army has an achilles' heel.  As the Harlie's "heel" is no armour save, giving them an Invulnerable save makes it more forgiving learning how to play the army well.  *shrugs* Maybe it's just me.

Regarding Hit and Fade:
Quote
Without it the Harlequins' hurt marines far too little, compared, again, to their cost. A far cheaper scorpion has a better record despite lower WS. So something is needed. If you have a suggestion on how to fix this problem.
Maybe, but it gives Harlies a HUGE advantage over everyone else.  Consider Tyranids with a 5+ armour save.  Giving Harlies the ability to reroll missed to hit rolls on the charge absolutely negates them, making what should be an equivalent army (based on their speed) appear amateur.

What about developing one of the power weapons with a fixed 4+ to wound roll?  That would balance it out a bit, give players the option of arming as many models as they can with it, and leaving this off the list against weakly armored forces.  The benefit could be counterbalanced by charging a little more for the weapon.  Maybe not a popular suggestion, but you asked for an alternative.  :D

Quote
D-fields should be made "Ind character-only" instead. it would just save all this bother.
Agreed.  I still like the strategic option of sacrificing a leader to gain an early advantage.

Quote
But the grenades are tossed when the enemy flees, so if the enemy run in turn 2 the Harlequins can't toss it after them as they run? That seems odd. Should Haywires, likewise, and Hallucinogen, and krak for other races, be limited to first turn?
Good point, but relegate this option to Tanglefoots and Haywires only.  If I were in a combat, I'd throw a Tanglefoot over a Hallucinogen any day.  Making a squad see more Harlies than are really there will only make them run faster.  :P  Krak and Plasmas are pretty worthless after the first round.

Quote
The thing with the familiargroup is that yes, it can be quite the devastating thing, but it adds a LOT of points to an allready pricey character. With 4 Benathai and two powers along with the rest of the gear it costs a LOT of points, and with a single missile taking him out, or heaven forbid someone smacks you with an ordnance, it is all gone in an instance. It is not a game-winner, and the costeven without your propsed increase, makes the SS a very pricey target. How do you suppose to counteract this?

Not clear on what your question is, but I'm guessing that you'd like me to elaborate my problem (?).  It's not so much the cost and ease of destruction, but imagine putting the SS on a jetbike.  For one, he gets a 3+ armour save, which will keep him around that much longer.  Now imagine him attached to a jetbike squad.  Safe among the numbers, he can get w/in 6" of a vehicle and fire up to 5 Fusion weapons at it (4 Benethai + FP on SS)?  FAR too powerful, and easily obscured enough to do significant damage before he gets taken out.

At least consider diminishing the weapon from a Fusion Pistol to a Shuriken Pistol (Plasma Pistol at the best), and decrease the limit from 4 to 3 (b/c of the 12" range on the pistol).  Stylistically, I like the idea of a gang of acrobats lobbing haywires at vehicles over "Hardboiled" action stars shooting as they run alongside their tank target.   ;D

-HQ

A huge advantage on paper does not necessarily transform into a huge advantage in the game!  Harlequins are just as fragile to shooting as ever, and now stand a more reasonable chance against Grey Knights.

As far as special power weapons go, the addition of the Fell-Blades somewhat addresses this issue.  However providing Agonisers to an already strong army in CC seems like complete folly.

The Benathai are so expensive--with no increased survival length for the character.  Therefore they seem balanced to me.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Baharroth. on July 6, 2005, 01:21:35 PM
question.....what does the fell blade do?..
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Manny-Kun on July 6, 2005, 01:23:49 PM
counts as a heavy close combat weapon
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Baharroth. on July 6, 2005, 01:31:14 PM
i know that...but what does a heavy CC weapon do!!!!!
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Manny-Kun on July 6, 2005, 03:54:20 PM
i know that...but what does a heavy CC weapon do!!!!!

unforntuanty i cant tell you, althought i would love to!  :-*

its on page 46 in the 4th ed 40k rule book
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 7, 2005, 09:47:57 AM
Once more thing--I recommend that Masque of the Dark Veil should have a note that any Harlequins unable to be placed within coherency also will be destroyed.  For example if there are two open spots 5" away from each other, one of the Harlequins is dead.  I believe this is the intended idea.

EDIT: I played a game against Tyranids with the CJ39 rules and I simply could not penetrate the I5 Gaunts that don't run.  I barely sneaked away with a draw, and I don't see anything in this revision that might help this problem.  One idea I had was to give Harlequins Counter-attack.  Therefore I could sit back, let the Gaunts charge me, strike first, and still get most of my guys in combat.  Comments?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Fenix7729 on July 9, 2005, 09:32:37 PM
well wont they still tear you apart in CC since they get to attack first?  i dont know how to beat those nids yet but we'll find a way.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 9, 2005, 09:36:02 PM
If they charge me I strike first because of the Holo-suit.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Fenix7729 on July 9, 2005, 09:42:00 PM
aaaaahhhh nice ;D ill use that piece of information when i play them.  do they have any type of frag, plasma, that kind of cover removal thing?  im hoping they dont.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on July 10, 2005, 09:26:22 AM
They do have Flesh Hooks, but we are getting off topic.

Any more ideas on the Counter-attack issue?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Fenix7729 on July 11, 2005, 03:31:48 PM
all i can think of is shoot them first with everything you have (i.e. plasma pistols, fusion pistols, shuriken pistols Str 4 helps...)  and have DJs have rocket launchers, but do you have to take specifically a plasma rocket launcher or a frag rocket launcher or does that come with both (i know, stupid question). 
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: dosmil on August 1, 2005, 12:48:02 AM
This may have already been asked.  If so, sorry.

Is the explosion for bio-explosive ammunition a Ordnance template or the smaller one?

I guess I don't see the sense in that, but I"ll have to go with it.  I mean, read what you wrote, as it is, without any assumptions.  Anyways, thanks.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on August 1, 2005, 02:35:10 AM
Does it say "large blast" or "ordnance blast"? No. It says "blast". That means the smaller one. :)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Kammerice on August 3, 2005, 04:51:21 AM
Here's a question (I'm not sure if its been answered - I'm too lazy to trawl through 35 pages of responses... :P):

Don't you think that the Harlequins should have access to a Webway Portal, much in the style of the DE and USF?  Would definately suit their style.  I'm not saying people would use it, but it would seem to me to be a genuine possibility given that it would be fluffy wargear...
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on August 3, 2005, 08:23:19 AM
Read the list itself... It is allready in there. Has been from the very beginning.
If you are going to comment on a list maybe you should start by reading it? :)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Kammerice on August 3, 2005, 09:25:08 AM
Uh, maybe I'm missing something, but no, its not...

I don't mean the Masque; I just meant like an actual webway portal choice in the wargear section.  The Masque requires the the entire army starts in Reserve - I meant a piece of wargear that gave the user the option which units to place in Reserve and which to field.

Of course, I could be reading the Revision wrong, and my interpretation is incorrect.

Sorry for being a pain... :-\
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on August 3, 2005, 09:32:58 AM
No, you are reading it right, and two different things to make them come out of the webway is overpowered to say the least. The Masque offers a lot of the advantages of the webway portal of the USF without many of the risks.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Kammerice on August 3, 2005, 12:51:29 PM
Fair point...

Very nice list, mind you, aside from that pretty minor point.  Good job. :)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Fishy on August 3, 2005, 05:57:33 PM
Just got to second the Webway point there. Its fluffy as an idea, but would be horrendous to play against (which is enough of a problem here as it is, getting people to accept the EO revision to play against). Not played that many games with it for various reasons but from what i have played, it would seem like a nightmare to face. An army of Harlies coming in from reserve initally, then the chacne for more to arrive later on once youve redeplyed to face the first lot.

The EML (Eldar Missile Launcher) comes with both types of missiles by the way, and you may choose one or the other each turn - just like frag/krak for the Imperial (hawk, spit  :P) versions.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on September 1, 2005, 08:55:31 PM
A bit random but whatever:

As a quick-fix to 4th edition this is what I've done to my Harlies:

I-1
Kill Zone 4"
Tanglefoots=halve enemy initiative

This has been pretty balanced, and I5 makes for some great tactical fights!
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on September 2, 2005, 02:24:00 AM
I am not following. Care to elaborate?

I also got a very long and detailed letter from a person who had playtested the revision. I am trying to get him to sign in and repost it here so we can discuss it. I feel wrong reposting it without him here, as he might have explanations to some comments that we would otherwise dismiss.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on September 2, 2005, 09:41:10 AM
My point is that I've a done a bit of playtesting with Initiative 5, and I've found that increasing the killzone to 3" does not compensate for this.  However, a killzone of 4" and Initiative 5 does seem to be balanced.  Just thought I'd put that out there for others to see!

Please--get us that letter!
Title: long email to rasmus
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on September 2, 2005, 01:54:56 PM
Hey Rasmus, as promised my thoughts posted, and your replies already integrated, andmine back on them.  Blue = rasmus's comments.  Orange = my replies i should say i envisage teh harlequins always as a small , fast moving, hard hitting army, with no slow aspect in the slightest. I believe the best way for us players to do this is to produce a list which mirrors this, without any excessive beardiness. We wany people to play us.

I believe a 1500 point army shouyld be approximately 20-25 models max. my thoughts are geared towards this end.

My standard list is under CJ set is:
shadowseer.
5 x mimes
5 x quins
5 x quins
wraithlord
venom.
6 DJ, mixed weapons
Solo


Things I like in your list:

New shadowseer psychic powers: Good selection and with the points drop makes him more flexible.

Warlocks:  I like these as they fit in, change wording to "+ 1 attack per model".

Masques: Good additions and give a reason to take great quin instead of shadowseer.

New flipbelt rules: Balanced and what we have been playing here for ages. 5 + Inv is about right.

Dismount: Fair enough and help us with the new vehicles exploding rules.

Mime Disruption: Good and a fair table, but this should be a 0-1 choice, rather than per number in the army.

Master Mime: Baby solitaire to be. I like. But make a choice that can only be fielded if one unit of mimes is present in the force.

Fell blade: Nice addition and will make for some really nice conversions. I appreciate the way you have allowed a mix in units as well.

Mockingbird: sweet addition.


Looted vehicle: back to the old days, but I would limit them to smaller craft only as webway travel doesn't allow big vehicles so:

Orks: Trukk, Guntrukk, Buggies, Traks

Imp Guard: Sentinel

Marines: Land Speeders + Variants, Rhinos, Razorback

Eldar: Vyper, War Walker

Dark Eldar: Raider
These last three are bought normally without looted vehicle roll, as same technology.

 the point of the looting is that they are vehicles that the
Harlequins have acquired *after* coming onto the field, and that they
will abandon them when they break down or the Harlequins leave the
scene of engagement, not that they bring them with them.

I think that after going to the trouble of looting, and repainting why throw away a perfectly good vehicle. Also looting larger vehicles give the list a chance to unbalance itself. I cannot imagine a fast moving hard hitting force using something as lumbering as a Leman Russ. By giving a similar list as the ork lootas have you are basiclly giving your army a massive range of options without the problems faced by orks which is the rubbish BS. By limiting the choice to a small flavourful groups of vehicles it becomes a nice addition rather than the token basilisk at the back to help compensate for something all eldar lack  ;D
 

Things that I don't think that work, or are fluffy and possible changes:

 

Hit and Fade: Very powerful, especially when combined with our kit and dread mask. I think that we go through units well enough without having this. Perhaps make it a shadowseer, or warlock skill called Foresight at 20 points, cast on one unit within 6 inches, or unit accompanied at beginning of movement phase.


Familiars: Why? No thanks? I think that they ruin the idea of a shadowseer and they should be removed. Complicated and unnecessary. I prefer the idea of a retinue of warlocks that little creatures with pointy teeth. Please lose them in the warp ;D.

 I am including them for completeness, as they were included in an
older Citadel Journal. I didn't feel it was my place to cut up original
units.
I personally think that this is teh perfect place. Lose the chaff. They don't quite fit in , in my view, but please comment on them.

Flight Belt and Flight belt troops: It think that this is particulary unfluffy. Although the idea of flying quins is nice I think that they are in, just to fill a slot rather than add to the flavour of the army. What I would add would be a unit similar but with phase field technology, like warp spiders do at the moment. Add hit and run and you have a sweet deal. Keep them 35 points each, with the same upgrades. This way you have a flavour, with fast, difficult to hit troops with the warp teleporting, and you move away from the jump pack troops feel of standard armies.

Pack Grenade Launcher: follow on from above, move to wargear, and allows ability to throw two types of grenades at once. 15 points + grenade cost.

 Actually playtestesting has shown that this limits the heavy
firepower, and makes for a fluffier Harlequin-list, free from the 9 DJs
and then additional support.

I see your point here but by making them jump pack troops you seem to just copy other armys. The idea of phase fields is already there (spiders and our own phase fields and would be a change and be fluffy in the way that enemy see there oppoenents who literally vanish and appear elsewhere in a blinding flash. Don't get me wrong i like the idea of fast moving jump troops, but i think we could improve teh way which we face teh thought rather than the old, "strap a rokkit to its back"

Tanglefoot Grenades: Yikes. Combined with the Dread mask, mask of fear, hallucinogen grenades, and the hit and fade as it stands at the moment they are too powerful. We already beat 95% of troops with initiative. Why halve it again? Too powerful and not needed. What would be better is that tanglefoot grenades reduced the enemy unit by -1 attack to a minimum of 1. A slight edge, but not overpowering. Cost 4 points per model.


Death Jesters: Move back to Elites. Keep as they are. By moving them to HS you have only two Elite choices, but 4 HS. Unbalanced. Also the player has to choose between some heavy firepower and master mime or solitaire.


Eldar Allies: Why are these needed? They make the harlequins list as it stands into another eldar army. The beauty of a harlequins force is it ability to be small, fast moving and elegant and two units of guardians and transports just ruin that image. Harlequins would not bring trainees of such poor quality along.

 They are, again, included for completeness. The Eldar and DE can
bring the Harlequins with them, so it makes sense the opposite should
be true too.

Completness? I think my comment still stands. Harlequins would select the best of the best. Not just common meat shield guardians. My view is either scrap these altogether or give the quins access to 0-1 aspect as a troops. Bansees or swooping hawks would fit in perfectly.


Mimes: Too cheap and basic troops choice which will push out the more expensive harlequins unit.
 
change to 21 points, remove fell blade option, and make 0-2. Lower weapon skill by one to 4, lose 1 attack, to one basic (not fully trained), keep the rest the same as CJ entry. Add a deep strike option to the standard of the lictor (assault out of it).
 
I like the choice of a mix and match of excellence, rather than a good expensive squad/bad cheap squad option. This cuts down on min/max possibilities.


Spiritwalker: Why change the T to 7? 99% or people will have wraithlord convos, so keep the same. Keep as the current CJ44, but up the cost to 110 pts basic. Also change the weapon options to D-cannon + 30, vibro cannon + 40, Shadow Weaver + 15, Fire pike, +20, (losing EML, starcannon, shuriken cannon, brightlance as this are what a standard wraithlord has, and are known for.). Also make them 0-1, as I really hate facing armies with 2-3 wraithlords let alone a quin one.



Additions and changes:


Riveblade:   Two handed, Rending (+15). Cannot be combined with powerblades.

Riveblades is the new name for "Stormglove" which is like a small
lightningclaw. It is not a scythe or something.

Its a cool name so make an item called that.

Pistols: Give me twin link baby. Paired pistols are on a lot of figures. Grant extra attack as paired CC weapons

Fusion Pistol (15) (20 to twin link) - brings cost in line with imperial inferno pistol, which is better.

Plasma Pistol (15) (20)

Shuriken Pistol (1) (3) – can bio explosive ammo at 5pts per gun.

Needle Pistol (2) (5)                 Range:12"        Str: X   AP -     Type:  Pistol

Always wounds on a 4+.

This sets a rule-precendent, something we have been trying to avoid.

The precedent has already been set (seraphim) and i think it would be a way to give people a chance to move away from characters must have a sword and a pistol. The option of twin-linking pistols could mean that people might think twice in not taking a stormglove, or kiss.


Stormglove: (15) (25 for pair). Allows re-rolled to wound for pair. again as above option for a different type of character weapon choice. After all we are teh masters of hand to hand. This is not different to paired lighting claws.


Displacement field: Independent characters only. May always move up to 6" in assault (Jet pack rule) 15pts. Useful for death jesters, but costs a fair price.

 
Well there you have it. Please comment, tear apart, come knocking on my door with pitchfork and burning brand. I hope that you find these useful.

On a side note. leaving th Init as it is and 3" kill zone is perfectly good. You just need to get your models into better combat, and stop relying on the one guy touch, everyone fight, but i can only lose one thing i have seen used several times. Also means we stand a chance against wyches and stealers who also profess to been the best CC monsters out there.

Tarrin
 

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tango on September 2, 2005, 02:02:58 PM
Suggestion: Instead of extending there kill zones, why not let harlies move about combat like exarches with that power?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on September 2, 2005, 07:10:09 PM
That power has generally been considered useless.  The thing about extending kill zones is that it allows you to strike enemies without giving them the chance to strike back.  The Exarch abilities let the opponent strike back as well.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on September 2, 2005, 07:45:11 PM
Hey Rasmus, as promised my thoughts posted, and your replies already integrated, andmine back on them.  Blue = rasmus's comments.  Orange = my replies i should say i envisage teh harlequins always as a small , fast moving, hard hitting army, with no slow aspect in the slightest. I believe the best way for us players to do this is to produce a list which mirrors this, without any excessive beardiness. We wany people to play us.

Warlocks:  I like these as they fit in, change wording to "+ 1 attack per model".
  I will look at that.

Quote
Mime Disruption: Good and a fair table, but this should be a 0-1 choice, rather than per number in the army.
  Why would they be so much worse at it than the Alaitoc snipers?

Quote
Master Mime: Baby solitaire to be. I like. But make a choice that can only be fielded if one unit of mimes is present in the force.
  You're right. He is even supposed to be.

Quote
Looted vehicle: back to the old days, but I would limit them to smaller craft only as webway travel doesn't allow big vehicles so:

Orks: Trukk, Guntrukk, Buggies, Traks

Imp Guard: Sentinel

Marines: Land Speeders + Variants, Rhinos, Razorback

Eldar: Vyper, War Walker

Dark Eldar: Raider
These last three are bought normally without looted vehicle roll, as same technology.

 the point of the looting is that they are vehicles that the
Harlequins have acquired *after* coming onto the field, and that they
will abandon them when they break down or the Harlequins leave the
scene of engagement, not that they bring them with them.

I think that after going to the trouble of looting, and repainting why throw away a perfectly good vehicle. Also looting larger vehicles give the list a chance to unbalance itself. I cannot imagine a fast moving hard hitting force using something as lumbering as a Leman Russ. By giving a similar list as the ork lootas have you are basiclly giving your army a massive range of options without the problems faced by orks which is the rubbish BS. By limiting the choice to a small flavourful groups of vehicles it becomes a nice addition rather than the token basilisk at the back to help compensate for something all eldar lack  ;D
   The effort on stealing a mobile vehicle and driving off in it is neglible with the correct training. Let's assume the Harlequins have it. it is not like they are going to go through a lot of trouble of fixing anything up; just steal and go, slap a few holo-emitters on it and you are off! That is what "looting" is all about after all - minimising the effort as opposed to building the thing. This is why the vehicles can be bigger, odder, and so on.
   Also it was in the original list, and as I am sucker for history it was included here as well.

Quote
Hit and Fade: Very powerful, especially when combined with our kit and dread mask. I think that we go through units well enough without having this. Perhaps make it a shadowseer, or warlock skill called Foresight at 20 points, cast on one unit within 6 inches, or unit accompanied at beginning of movement phase.
  The problem is that with S3 the "greatest cc-army in the game" is really quite bad. We needed to balance this somehow. A few suggestions have been made for this, and this is the one we are currently working on. It needs to make a basic trouper a worthy cc-foe even without the support of characters or gear.


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Familiars: Why? No thanks? I think that they ruin the idea of a shadowseer and they should be removed. Complicated and unnecessary. I prefer the idea of a retinue of warlocks that little creatures with pointy teeth. Please lose them in the warp ;D.

 I am including them for completeness, as they were included in an
older Citadel Journal. I didn't feel it was my place to cut up original
units.
I personally think that this is teh perfect place. Lose the chaff. They don't quite fit in , in my view, but please comment on them.
    Well, I am not dropping this as a big part of the revision is about including that which the Harlequins used to have. There used to be Benathai, so there are Benathai. If you don't like them then do as the lot of people not liking the Spiritwalker; don't use it.

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Flight Belt and Flight belt troops: It think that this is particulary unfluffy. Although the idea of flying quins is nice I think that they are in, just to fill a slot rather than add to the flavour of the army. What I would add would be a unit similar but with phase field technology, like warp spiders do at the moment. Add hit and run and you have a sweet deal. Keep them 35 points each, with the same upgrades. This way you have a flavour, with fast, difficult to hit troops with the warp teleporting, and you move away from the jump pack troops feel of standard armies.
   Again, these were in the original list, and therefore included. Flight-belts were different then, but they had a place in there.

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Actually playtestesting has shown that this limits the heavy
firepower, and makes for a fluffier Harlequin-list, free from the 9 DJs
and then additional support.

I see your point here but by making them jump pack troops you seem to just copy other armys. The idea of phase fields is already there (spiders and our own phase fields and would be a change and be fluffy in the way that enemy see there oppoenents who literally vanish and appear elsewhere in a blinding flash. Don't get me wrong i like the idea of fast moving jump troops, but i think we could improve teh way which we face teh thought rather than the old, "strap a rokkit to its back"
   That was in comment to making DJs Elites and not Heavy though, and has nothing to do with the Flightbelters...

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Tanglefoot Grenades: Yikes. Combined with the Dread mask, mask of fear, hallucinogen grenades, and the hit and fade as it stands at the moment they are too powerful. We already beat 95% of troops with initiative. Why halve it again? Too powerful and not needed. What would be better is that tanglefoot grenades reduced the enemy unit by -1 attack to a minimum of 1. A slight edge, but not overpowering. Cost 4 points per model.
   The points you are investing in a single trouper with all of those upgrades is horrendous and I would be shocked if you could not make a cc-monster with the same points in any other army out there. And Tanglefoot does not halve initative in combat, just for running people to ground.


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Death Jesters: Move back to Elites. Keep as they are. By moving them to HS you have only two Elite choices, but 4 HS. Unbalanced. Also the player has to choose between some heavy firepower and master mime or solitaire.
   This is what I commented above.


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Eldar Allies: Why are these needed? They make the harlequins list as it stands into another eldar army. The beauty of a harlequins force is it ability to be small, fast moving and elegant and two units of guardians and transports just ruin that image. Harlequins would not bring trainees of such poor quality along.

 They are, again, included for completeness. The Eldar and DE can
bring the Harlequins with them, so it makes sense the opposite should
be true too.

Completness? I think my comment still stands. Harlequins would select the best of the best. Not just common meat shield guardians. My view is either scrap these altogether or give the quins access to 0-1 aspect as a troops. Bansees or swooping hawks would fit in perfectly.
  It is more about the Eldar/DE fighting alongside the Harlequins than the Harlequins trying to recruit them, as outlined in the "Sneaking off to join the circus"-rule. Again, if you don't feel they fit in then just don't use them.


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Mimes: Too cheap and basic troops choice which will push out the more expensive harlequins unit.

change to 21 points, remove fell blade option, and make 0-2. Lower weapon skill by one to 4, lose 1 attack, to one basic (not fully trained), keep the rest the same as CJ entry. Add a deep strike option to the standard of the lictor (assault out of it).
 
I like the choice of a mix and match of excellence, rather than a good expensive squad/bad cheap squad option. This cuts down on min/max possibilities.
   So basically pay three times the guardiancost for a deepstriking banshee without powerweapon? That makes very little sense indeed.


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Spiritwalker: Why change the T to 7? 99% or people will have wraithlord convos, so keep the same. Keep as the current CJ44, but up the cost to 110 pts basic. Also change the weapon options to D-cannon + 30, vibro cannon + 40, Shadow Weaver + 15, Fire pike, +20, (losing EML, starcannon, shuriken cannon, brightlance as this are what a standard wraithlord has, and are known for.). Also make them 0-1, as I really hate facing armies with 2-3 wraithlords let alone a quin one.
   It was originally intended for T7 in CJ 44 but was mangled in editing. It is supposed to balance the coversave and armour, and stop a bit of the cheese. If it was T8 with 3+/4+-cover then it would need to be 200 points to balance against other such elements in the game. And it is 0-1 with a prerequisite Shadowseer...


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Additions and changes:


Riveblade:   Two handed, Rending (+15). Cannot be combined with powerblades.

Riveblades is the new name for "Stormglove" which is like a small
lightningclaw. It is not a scythe or something.

Its a cool name so make an item called that.
   The Harlequins have never had a twohanded weapon ever. The Revision is not about adding things like that. It is about trying to use the original list with its older additions and make it playable in 4th ed.

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Pistols: Give me twin link baby. Paired pistols are on a lot of figures. Grant extra attack as paired CC weapons
  Again you have moved my comment.... And an extra pistol always adds +1A.

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Fusion Pistol (15) (20 to twin link) - brings cost in line with imperial inferno pistol, which is better.

Plasma Pistol (15) (20)

Shuriken Pistol (1) (3) – can bio explosive ammo at 5pts per gun.

Needle Pistol (2) (5)                 Range:12"        Str: X   AP -     Type:  Pistol

Always wounds on a 4+.

This sets a rule-precendent, something we have been trying to avoid.

The precedent has already been set (seraphim) and i think it would be a way to give people a chance to move away from characters must have a sword and a pistol. The option of twin-linking pistols could mean that people might think twice in not taking a stormglove, or kiss.

   As you are FoFing all the time the point of getting more guns is fairly lost.

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Stormglove: (15) (25 for pair). Allows re-rolled to wound for pair. again as above option for a different type of character weapon choice. After all we are teh masters of hand to hand. This is not different to paired lighting claws.
   But is you compare just the sheer size and power of the lighttningsclaw to the stormglove it is a completely different weapon. Also the stormglove adds something unique to the army as they are now; why make them more bland?


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Displacement field: Independent characters only. May always move up to 6" in assault (Jet pack rule) 15pts. Useful for death jesters, but costs a fair price.
   Displacement-fields were common in RT and 2nd ed, but did something else. I can't quite see the use of this, and it would be a bit of a cheese-bite as the thing would get around the Heavy-notation on the EML.

 
Suggestion: Instead of extending there kill zones, why not let harlies move about combat like exarches with that power?
   It would add a lot of complexity to the game though. It is ok for a single Exarch in a few elite-squads, but in a squad with 10 Harlequins it would be a pain...
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on September 3, 2005, 01:57:43 PM
Hello again,
Anyone new to this please read my post on p35 of this thread begore commenting as rasmus and i have cut a fair portion of it out  :)

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Mime Disruption:   Why would they be so much worse at it than the Alaitoc snipers?

Youre right, but make them too availiable and everyone will take them and basic quin units will fall out of favour. They need a limit, much as teh aliatoc are limited by other available kit in thier list.

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Looted vehicle:    The effort on stealing a mobile vehicle ....Also it was in the original list, and as I am sucker for history it was included here as well.

Fair enough.

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Hit and Fade:  The problem is that with S3 the "greatest cc-army in the game" is really quite bad... It needs to make a basic trouper a worthy cc-foe even without the support of characters or gear.

I disagree. By having the additions you have made and those currently thier i feel that any harlequins unit can already beat any force in the game. The array of kisses, and power weaponry that we can have, as well as the addition of heavy CCW's mean that we can put a dent in most armies. I feel that as we are already hitting every unit in teh game, expect wyches on a 3+, and 95% of the time going first, rerolling misses is a bit good. And with our kit availiable to aid chasing enemies down we should win most of teh time.
I would rather we get rid of this, and have the Heavy CC option for all our troops at base cost, as a standard skill. That way we dont run into the problem when we face T5 2+/3+ save troops, which in my opinion are teh only ones who really give us trouble.
I think its too powerful by far.




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Familiars: why? no thanks?.....lose the chaff. Well, I am not dropping this as a big part of the revision is about including that which the Harlequins used to have. There used to be Benathai, so there are Benathai. If you don't like them then do as the lot of people not liking the Spiritwalker; don't use it.

Fair point  ;D

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Flight Belt vs phase field:  Again, these were in the original list, and therefore included. Flight-belts were different then, but they had a place in there

Perhaps give them the choice. Flight belts for +10 a figure. Phase Field + 7 a figure. thats way broader options.


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Tanglefoot Grenades: Yikes....The points you are investing in a single trouper with all of those upgrades is horrendous and I would be shocked if you could not make a cc-monster with the same points in any other army out there. And Tanglefoot does not halve initative in combat, just for running people to ground.

I realise this, but do we honestly need it. we already beat most armies by +2-3 I at basic troups and with characters we thrash them. To have a foe then half Init.again after they have had to roll leadership, at -1 , probably on 3D6 is ludicrous. It is truely broken. We are practically saying that if you lose to teh quins in H2H you WILL run. These grenades will be the sole possession of characters who buy them cheap and will use them as independant characters alongside troops. therefore you get this skill for basically 4 points.

As in this roll there are no automatic passes or fails it is impossible for most troops to win this roll against a solitaire.
8+1 = 9, which cannot be beat by anyone with base initiative of 3 or 4, as 2 + 6 = 8.

The stastistical probability of passing against a basic trooper is way to high. As this is now such an important part of the game and you can kill whole units with ease i think any list will have GW say no.Totally unfair, and game breaker, needs to be looked at.

My suggestion is not a breaker as it costs, but is very useful.

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Death Jesters: Move back to Elites... This is what I commented above.
The 9 DJ army will still be favourable if you make spiritwalker T7, see comments below. I think that they are fine in elites.
The arguement you use for this is basically the same arguement you use for placing eldar allies in, and having mimes If people want to have a DJ heavy army let them, but they lose the options of characters liek master mime and solo. By puuting them in heavy they can still have 9 but also can take the kickass elites as well.


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Eldar Allies: Why are these needed? They make the harlequins list as it stands into another eldar army. The beauty of a harlequins force is it ability to be small, fast moving and elegant and two units of guardians and transports just ruin that image. Harlequins would not bring trainees of such poor quality along. They are, again, included for completeness. The Eldar and DE can
bring the Harlequins with them, so it makes sense the opposite should
be true too.[/color]

Completness? I think my comment still stands. Harlequins would select the best of the best. Not just common meat shield guardians. My view is either scrap these altogether or give the quins access to 0-1 aspect as a troops. Bansees or swooping hawks would fit in perfectly.

  It is more about the Eldar/DE fighting alongside the Harlequins than the Harlequins trying to recruit them, as outlined in the "Sneaking off to join the circus"-rule. Again, if you don't feel they fit in then just don't use them.

 I can understand your reasons and i partially agree. But doesnt this kind of move away from the quins turning up where and when they like to fight seperate. If a guardian can find them this easy surely their evil powers of chaos gribbliness can as well. i think if you have to include this, for posterity sake make 0-1, or cannot be taken as the required complement of two troops.


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Mimes: Too cheap and basic troops choice which will push out the more expensive harlequins unit.

change to 21 points, remove fell blade option, and make 0-2. Lower weapon skill by one to 4, lose 1 attack, to one basic (not fully trained), keep the rest the same as CJ entry. Add a deep strike option to the standard of the lictor (assault out of it).

   So basically pay three times the guardiancost for a deepstriking banshee without powerweapon? That makes very little sense indeed.
Ah, but the ability to assault out of deep strike more than pays for itself. a general can use these troops to tie down enemy and remove heavy support units. Imagine ann approaching amrine army finding that its heavy suuport has been toasted by a squad of mimes who appear in cover, move, shoot neurodisruptors then assualt the big guns. 

Its a risky venture, but points must be paid to compenstae for such a good power. Its not about comparisons, its about fitting points costs to skills and fluff.

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Spiritwalker: Why change the T to 7? 99% or people will have wraithlord convos, so keep the same.....It was originally intended for T7 in CJ 44 but was mangled in editing. It is supposed to balance the coversave and armour, and stop a bit of the cheese. If it was T8 with 3+/4+-cover then it would need to be 200 points to balance against other such elements in the game. And it is 0-1 with a prerequisite Shadowseer...

Firstly 0-1 is good.

The drop to T7 makes it far softer, S4 weapons can now hurt it and bigger guns are far more effective, let alone the hidden powerfist in a squad of marines or ork boyz. with only one availiable your enemy no longer fears it.

By Upping its cost, and giving shorter range weapons, <24" instead of longer. you balance out the T8 and cover save as it has to be used as a close support option more, bringing it into the range of more firepower. I think that this really needs to be adreesed, but i don't see lowering teh toughness is the way forward. I find that there are enough big guns around which can take downa a wraithlord, most of which render the 3+ armour save useless. And with the precedent set bu assualt cannon, we are forever grateful that we are tough enough to bounce bolter fire, else or 0-1 blokey is a sitting duck.

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Riveblade:   Two handed, Rending (+15). Cannot be combined with powerblades. The Harlequins have never had a twohanded weapon ever.

And? Are you telling me the idea of a quin gracefully taking apart foes witha two handed sword isn't cool.

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The Revision is not about adding things like that. It is about trying to use the original list with its older additions and make it playable in 4th ed.

Thats very blinkered. Are you trying to make a playable army list or bring the old ones up to date. I am not trying to offensicve with taht quote, jut trying to gauge whats the aim is. If we want an offical list that is playable certaiin additions need to be aded and changes made to bring us up to date in the 40k arms race.

I am sure ceratin players would love anti install kit, kit which helps agaisnt shooting, such as teh tau stelth suits etc.
I think thats this is the perfect time to present an upto-date codex which is workable.

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Pistols: Give me twin link baby....This sets a rule-precendent, something we have been trying to avoid.

The precedent has already been set (seraphim) and i think it would be a way to give people a chance to move away from characters must have a sword and a pistol. As you are FoFing all the time the point of getting more guns is fairly lost.


Thats if you FoF. You don't have to you know  ;) perhaps you want your deep striking mime sergeants to have this, or want to add flavour to your force., or when you get close enough to not have to fleet of foot ( say after you have moved out of cover into charge range) you want to be able to shoot , rather than rely on a sword.
The figures have such nice paired gun combos it would be silly not to at least playtest this.

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Stormglove: (15) (25 for pair). Allows re-rolled to wound for pair.
   But is you compare just the sheer size and power of the lighttningsclaw to the stormglove it is a completely different weapon. Also the stormglove adds something unique to the army as they are now; why make them more bland?

I think you misunderstood me keep the stormglove abilities just make the option of pairing. Not a bland idea. Makes the possibility of a character nails against oher characters but also very specialised.

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Displacement field: Independent characters only. May always move up to 6" in assault (Jet pack rule) 15pts. Useful for death jesters, but costs a fair price.

Displacement-fields were common in RT and 2nd ed, but did something else. I can't quite see the use of this, and it would be a bit of a cheese-bite as the thing would get around the Heavy-notation on the EML.

you spend 80 points on one guy only to have him move out to shoot, miss and then be a sitting duck. if we sty it cannot be combined with a phase field then we have a winner.

This is not different to a tau crisis suit jumping out firing 4 str7 weapons and hiding. granted its bigger, but it has better armour and drones. we don't. and they can be independants and cost about teh same.
The EML thing is still a pain as you need to be out already to shoot the damn thing.

its back to the arms race thing.

hope these comments help, and try to get my point across. I dont want to be having to play witha ridiculously overpowered army, s i love a challenge, but i think certain changes need to be made to make us a 4th ed army in all senses, not just a throwback to the old days.


ever thought about vortex grenades?  ;) heheheh


best regards

tarrin
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on September 3, 2005, 07:54:21 PM
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Hit and Fade:  The problem is that with S3 the "greatest cc-army in the game" is really quite bad... It needs to make a basic trouper a worthy cc-foe even without the support of characters or gear.
I disagree. By having the additions you have made and those currently thier i feel that any harlequins unit can already beat any force in the game. The array of kisses, and power weaponry that we can have, as well as the addition of heavy CCW's mean that we can put a dent in most armies. I feel that as we are already hitting every unit in teh game, expect wyches on a 3+, and 95% of the time going first, rerolling misses is a bit good. And with our kit availiable to aid chasing enemies down we should win most of teh time.
I would rather we get rid of this, and have the Heavy CC option for all our troops at base cost, as a standard skill. That way we dont run into the problem when we face T5 2+/3+ save troops, which in my opinion are teh only ones who really give us trouble.
I think its too powerful by far.

I don't quite understand your logic.  You feel that we should replace a theoretically 'overpowered' skill with something that removes our only theoretical weakness?  How is this balancing? 

1.) Hit & Fade is fine the way it is.
In your argument you highlight all the reasons why Hit & Fade ISN'T overpowered.  We already hit at a high rate, making an increase negligible.  Our issues with Wyches are very serious.  The Dark Eldar have plenty of mobility and firepower, along with a close-combat unit more efficient than we are.  Something must be done about this--and making our chances to get in hits is a perfect way to do it.

I'm not sure how much of this thread you have read, but we've already had some arguments about this.  Here are a couple previous incarnations:
-Hit & Fade=Furious Charge.  This was deemed unfluffy--especially the fluff bonus.
-Hit & Fade=re-rolled to-wound rolls.  This was deemed unbalanced because it makes Power Weapons and the Stormglove inordinately powerful compared to the Harlequin's Kiss.

We eventually settled on this incarnation because it seemed balanced and also accentuated a facet of the Harlequins we found important--fast-attacking with large quantities of attacks.

2.) Your suggestion wouldn't work.
I never take Fell-blades on my Harlequins in playtesting, and I have found Death Guard/Terminators to be difficult to handle with ordinary logistical method/tactical maneuvers.  However, before tackling this issue I'd like to make two points:

A) Is the issue with the Harlequins or is it with the general?  I'm not insulting anyone's ability, but different armies take different strategies.  All the high-toughness, high-save armies have a distinct lack of long-ranged firepower.  This is their accentuating weakness.  It must be capitalized upon

B) Any change needs to be compared to its effect on other changes.  Would giving all our units HCC make them too powerful against Sisters of Battle or Salamanders?

Avoidance and deception are the key to fighting Death Guard and other T5 armies, not extra close-combat prowess.  Death Guard are slow--they are designed that way.  Death Jesters and Spiritwalkers are excellent weapons platforms, and can be put to good use here.  When the enemy is disoriented, strike!

I think the answer to the second question is yes.  If all our Harlequins got HCC for free, it WOULD make them overpowered against Marines.  In my many games against Marines, I've never really had any trouble.  (FYI--I find the most difficult enemies to be Tyranids and the Wyche Cult, with Daemonhunters a close second.)  Adding in Heavy Close Combat weapons might help against the hard-as-nails Terminators, but there are others ways to deal with these guys.  HCC weapons would turn Marines v. Harlequins from a balanced fight to a slaughter for the Harlequins.

I like your idea though--it was suggested a while ago (along with some more outrageous things!) and I think the reasons we had then for making them an upgrade instead of free still hold firm.

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Youre right, but make them too availiable and everyone will take them and basic quin units will fall out of favour. They need a limit, much as teh aliatoc are limited by other available kit in thier list.
Possibly, but I don't really see any evidence of that.  And Alaitoc is the other way around--Guardians are limited by the number of Rangers, not Rangers by the number of Guardians.

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I realise this, but do we honestly need it. we already beat most armies by +2-3 I at basic troups and with characters we thrash them. To have a foe then half Init.again after they have had to roll leadership, at -1 , probably on 3D6 is ludicrous. It is truely broken. We are practically saying that if you lose to teh quins in H2H you WILL run. These grenades will be the sole possession of characters who buy them cheap and will use them as independant characters alongside troops. therefore you get this skill for basically 4 points.

As in this roll there are no automatic passes or fails it is impossible for most troops to win this roll against a solitaire.
8+1 = 9, which cannot be beat by anyone with base initiative of 3 or 4, as 2 + 6 = 8.

The stastistical probability of passing against a basic trooper is way to high. As this is now such an important part of the game and you can kill whole units with ease i think any list will have GW say no.Totally unfair, and game breaker, needs to be looked at.

My suggestion is not a breaker as it costs, but is very useful.

Tanglefoot grenades are not overpowered.  There is a reason they only work in the first round of combat.  If we make a unit run, we may kill it, but that precious Solitaire is about to be shot up.  I recommend reading in WD304 Jeff Leong's article on The Horde.  Many of the tactics used by the Skaven (sacrificial units to lure enemies, etc.) can be used against Tanglefoot grenades quite effectively.

In fact, I think Tanglefoot grenades are a bit underpowered.  But then again every army has such a thing, like the SoB Sarissa.

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Thats very blinkered. Are you trying to make a playable army list or bring the old ones up to date. I am not trying to offensicve with taht quote, jut trying to gauge whats the aim is. If we want an offical list that is playable certaiin additions need to be aded and changes made to bring us up to date in the 40k arms race.

I am sure ceratin players would love anti install kit, kit which helps agaisnt shooting, such as teh tau stelth suits etc.
I think thats this is the perfect time to present an upto-date codex which is workable.

Yes.  Things need to change.  But adding in a two-handed scythe because someone thinks it is 'cool' is not what that means!  (I hope you don't take offence, but I'm not sure if you are understanding what I'm saying)

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Thats if you FoF. You don't have to you know  Wink perhaps you want your deep striking mime sergeants to have this, or want to add flavour to your force., or when you get close enough to not have to fleet of foot ( say after you have moved out of cover into charge range) you want to be able to shoot , rather than rely on a sword.
The figures have such nice paired gun combos it would be silly not to at least playtest this.

FoF is necessary for non-Venom groups every turn of the game.  Adding this in is a possiblity I like--but I'm not sure how useful it would be.

In conclusion, we're looking for relative balance and historical value--not a powergamer's army or necessarily one keeping up with the myth of 'codex creep'.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on September 3, 2005, 09:11:36 PM
in reply

hit and fade: all my oppenents have complained that i get enough attacks combined with a 3+ to hit with fancy kit that the rerolls are over powering. i am only going on my experiences. i cannot think of another unit in teh game so tooled up as us that gets a 3+ reolled to hit on every charge.

agree on the furious charge and the rerolls to wound, which is why i didnt add them as ideas  :)

I suggested the heavy CC as a facet of the skill, finding the chinks in armour.

This also comes from the two handed blade thing, which does rending. I consider rending to be the ultimate finding a hole of teh armour) over massive damage. I suggested two handed as them we arent been overpowered by the extra attacks.


On the point of high toughness armies, we have to consider no everyone will play true armies. the two guys here who play nurgle ( as with most of the chaos) never pick a pure army. It will be nurgle troops supported by fast and hard hitting stuff, so the balance is lost. also the ability to fire as stationary ( dieseased bulk?) really neutralises that arguement. nurgle are also fearless which ruins that way of beating them. affecting the armour as above seems fair.

Against sisters its not a problem (spirit of the martyr = 3+ inv.) as well as 20 man units in power armour all with bolters. and i have never played agaisnst salamanders so cant comment.
but against marines in general s3 vs t4 is a fair balancer, as well the we shall know no fear rules.
Upgrade then, but my views on hit and fade still stand.


i actually find necrons to be the real pain as they high high leadership, toughness 3+ armour and teh we'll be back. The real killer is teh monolith teleport out of combat which is awful for us. daemonhunters go down a treat as tehy are just fancy marines . nids i use neurodisruptors on teh troops and dj's on teh big guys.
it was decided here, i am not sure that this is a common rule, that the neurodisruptor goes on unmodified leadership, so no synapse.
The best way to handle stealers is let them assualt you, as you go first.

tanglefoots, you dont have to use them, and on thier own they are not overpowered but combined with our other kit they are. just trying to look at the big picture.


i am not trying to pick a fight and i will never take offence to anything anyone says on a discussion board, likewise i hope that everyone realises i am only playing devils advocate.

FoF. i actually use it very rarely. I use mimes and venom troops but tend to keep my non venom units safe in cover or for holding scenery. i think the shooting option would give a player exactly what that is, an option, to either fleet of foot or shoot the fancy gun.
i think the option to go gun heavy is a surprise that opponents would fear and help us agaisnt armies liek teh deathwing and other skimmer heavy armies.
i totally agree with removing codex creep or the 40k arms race as we call it. historical yes, but you must be careful not to use too much as harlequins were overpowering then. i am sickened by the whole powergamers ideal. i hate it in lrp and tabletop and even more in 40k. i played a marine force yesterday that had master in artificer armour and halo, 2 x scout units, 9 speeder tornadoes, 3 dreadnoughts. more assault cannon than you can imagine.
I personally think that they should be a challenging army to use, and have downsides. i want to see teh qins suceed and be a playable fun army, but i don't want opponenets to see us as a beardy, cc army, the way blood angels were when rhino rush was still legal.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on September 3, 2005, 09:12:56 PM
ps wyches. i found shreiker cannons work a treat.

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on September 3, 2005, 10:22:53 PM
"Use the "Modify" to add stuff to your post rather than to post another in sequence," as Rasmus so aptly said.   ;)

I don't think that we will really get anywhere by arguing this--we both have reasonable points and both are stubborn enough to not give up!

Going gun-heavy isn't very effective in 4th edition.  I wrote an article for 3rd edition about it but recently found the tactic to be grossly outdated.

Neuro-Disruptor does work on regular Ld since under the Synapse rules the Ld is not changed--the 'nids just can't fall back.

I completely agree that against Marines S3/T3 against S4/T4 already serves as a balancer.  But won't HCC upset that balance?  After all, every action has an opposite reaction ;)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on September 4, 2005, 06:35:17 AM
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Mime Disruption:   Why would they be so much worse at it than the Alaitoc snipers?

Youre right, but make them too availiable and everyone will take them and basic quin units will fall out of favour. They need a limit, much as teh aliatoc are limited by other available kit in thier list.
   I disagree. Very few will play Harleuqins without Harlequins. The comparative weakness of the Mimes when posed against the basic Trouper is so big that most will shy away from it. I have not seen any tendencies in the playtesting-groups that Mimes would be favoured over Troupers in the least.


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Hit and Fade:  The problem is that with S3 the "greatest cc-army in the game" is really quite bad... It needs to make a basic trouper a worthy cc-foe even without the support of characters or gear.

I disagree. By having the additions you have made and those currently thier i feel that any harlequins unit can already beat any force in the game. The array of kisses, and power weaponry that we can have, as well as the addition of heavy CCW's mean that we can put a dent in most armies. I feel that as we are already hitting every unit in teh game, expect wyches on a 3+, and 95% of the time going first, rerolling misses is a bit good. And with our kit availiable to aid chasing enemies down we should win most of teh time.
I would rather we get rid of this, and have the Heavy CC option for all our troops at base cost, as a standard skill. That way we dont run into the problem when we face T5 2+/3+ save troops, which in my opinion are teh only ones who really give us trouble.
I think its too powerful by far.
   I side with Infinity-circuit here. You are proposing the dropping of a gerenal special rule to counter the lack of armourpunch in the overall army. This would unbalance the list something fierce, and bump the cost of every Harlequin up to 30 at least. It would also make a lot of powerweapons and kisses redundant, which would be a shame. Adding more options is better than removing their usefulness overall, I think.

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I realise this, but do we honestly need it. we already beat most armies by +2-3 I at basic troups and with characters we thrash them. To have a foe then half Init.again after they have had to roll leadership, at -1 , probably on 3D6 is ludicrous. It is truely broken. We are practically saying that if you lose to teh quins in H2H you WILL run. These grenades will be the sole possession of characters who buy them cheap and will use them as independant characters alongside troops. therefore you get this skill for basically 4 points.
    Thanks for finding that. Of course the Harlequins do not pursue 3D6" anymore. I will ammend the wording.

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The 9 DJ army will still be favourable if you make spiritwalker T7, see comments below. I think that they are fine in elites.
The arguement you use for this is basically the same arguement you use for placing eldar allies in, and having mimes If people want to have a DJ heavy army let them, but they lose the options of characters liek master mime and solo. By puuting them in heavy they can still have 9 but also can take the kickass elites as well.
  But then you are making the Harlequins about firepower. They are not, nor have they ever been about firepower. It is supposed to be a "support"-option, not a mainstay in the armystructure. This is a cc-based army.

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I can understand your reasons and i partially agree. But doesnt this kind of move away from the quins turning up where and when they like to fight seperate. If a guardian can find them this easy surely their evil powers of chaos gribbliness can as well. i think if you have to include this, for posterity sake make 0-1, or cannot be taken as the required complement of two troops.
   1. The Harlequins visit the Craftworlds. They don't need "finding them". The CWEs are sought out.
   2. They are Elites now, and not Troops, so they can never fill the requirement.


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The drop to T7 makes it far softer, S4 weapons can now hurt it and bigger guns are far more effective, let alone the hidden powerfist in a squad of marines or ork boyz. with only one availiable your enemy no longer fears it.
   Thus part of the appeal. The T8-monster is justa huge chunk of cheese in the eyes of many opponents, and might block you from playing the Harlequins at all. This way it is still a formidable opponent, although allowing you to play with the list still.


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And? Are you telling me the idea of a quin gracefully taking apart foes witha two handed sword isn't cool.

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The Revision is not about adding things like that. It is about trying to use the original list with its older additions and make it playable in 4th ed.

Thats very blinkered. Are you trying to make a playable army list or bring the old ones up to date. I am not trying to offensicve with taht quote, jut trying to gauge whats the aim is. If we want an offical list that is playable certaiin additions need to be aded and changes made to bring us up to date in the 40k arms race.

I think thats this is the perfect time to present an upto-date codex which is workable.
   We are making a playable list out of the old material. There is no either/or there. However, it is anot about adding "cool stuf" as it appears to us. That would make either a splintered list or a vastly overpowered one. The Exodite-project here at 40konline initially suffered a lot from this, and still does to a degree, as every single unit is "cool" and has a vast array of special rules and power, the "apple in its creator's eye" so to speak. I just wanted this playable. If you want a "cool" two-handed weapon in a quin then make a scythe and call it a powerblade.


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Pistols: Give me twin link baby....This sets a rule-precendent, something we have been trying to avoid.

The precedent has already been set (seraphim) and i think it would be a way to give people a chance to move away from characters must have a sword and a pistol. As you are FoFing all the time the point of getting more guns is fairly lost.

Thats if you FoF. You don't have to you know  ;) perhaps you want your deep striking mime sergeants to have this, or want to add flavour to your force., or when you get close enough to not have to fleet of foot ( say after you have moved out of cover into charge range) you want to be able to shoot , rather than rely on a sword.
The figures have such nice paired gun combos it would be silly not to at least playtest this.
   Again this is moving the shift towards an army relying on shooting for killing things. I much prefer the original idea of the Harlequins dancing across the field, summersaulting across obstacles and then cutting into the enemy than having them stop to gun down the opposition, don't you?


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Displacement field: Independent characters only. May always move up to 6" in assault (Jet pack rule) 15pts. Useful for death jesters, but costs a fair price.

Displacement-fields were common in RT and 2nd ed, but did something else. I can't quite see the use of this, and it would be a bit of a cheese-bite as the thing would get around the Heavy-notation on the EML.

you spend 80 points on one guy only to have him move out to shoot, miss and then be a sitting duck. if we sty it cannot be combined with a phase field then we have a winner.
  I think that with a 4+ coversave and good placement, target-saturation and being a single target (an entire squad has to fire just to take out a single shooter) he is everything but a sitting duck, and if my opposition wants to blow him away they are free to, as it allows one of my mainstay-units to get into combat instead, which is what the Harlequins are there for.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Red Avenger on September 5, 2005, 08:44:29 AM
I apologize if this has been debated before but wouldn't be logical if Harlequins would have preferred enemy (Chaos) skill. Just a thought...
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on September 5, 2005, 09:30:15 AM
It is an option that has not been considered, but I am sure it will be part of the 4th ed version sooner or later. It would be largely without effect as they allready hit on 3+, but still.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: FarseerAldruan on September 5, 2005, 10:24:18 AM
With regard to the different options for harlies, I think it would be better to have a list where it doesn't force the player down one path at once, they're free to make different choices, good or bad.  Such as taking Hellions in a DE army (okay, that's my opinion) or really kitting out an Incubi retinue (again, my opinion, but something that newcomers do a lot).  Granted, harlies are known for being all about assault, but it might be rewarding to give people the opportunity to mess up the list by adding pistols, which yield less mobile barely shooty 'quin squads, and such.  Then maybe the 'best list' wouldn't be quite so clear.  Again, as with the DE in 3rd ed., we wouldn't like to see only raider rush armies on the table (I pretty much did) but instead many acceptable (or unacceptable) variants of the harlie list.  This would encourage people to try harlequins, instead of saying, "you seen one harlie army, you've seen them all."  So I'm for adding some trivial equipment, or maybe even a unit that would turn out to be useless to the overall list, just to see what people do with them.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: englishharlie on September 5, 2005, 01:41:37 PM
With regards to twin-linked psitol options.

I would use it certainly. Imagine a venom with DJ and 6 quins, said harlies have 2 of their number equipped with double plasma pistols. So you have a transport which is a unit and then a DJ which is also a unit and then the harlies that are a third unit. Venom with it's 12" fusion gun firing at whatever, Dj with his weapon and then 2 twin linked PP shots from the regular harlies firing at what they want <smiley licking lips>. Not sure if that could be pulled off and even if it could it might come under the lable of stilton. If not then you've got a single unit that can dish out a lot of anti tank firepower that also has the ability to get around to rear armour. I would at least try this out to see if I could make it work.

English

Oh and in a previous post (not from me) the 3D6 was in reference to a dread mask not the old flip-belt rules.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on September 5, 2005, 02:48:06 PM
Now that you put it that way, I think you MAY be right.  Adding on TL-pistols would solve the issues of the models and also give us more flexiblity.  However the issue is whether or not we want to make such a huge bridge from assault to Sisters of Battle-esque techniques.

Not sure if that could be pulled off and even if it could it might come under the lable of stilton.

Just because something is not orthodox does not mean it smells like gorganzola!
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on September 5, 2005, 03:07:16 PM
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Again this is moving the shift towards an army relying on shooting for killing things. I much prefer the original idea of the Harlequins dancing across the field, summersaulting across obstacles and then cutting into the enemy than having them stop to gun down the opposition, don't you?
i actually love the idea of harlequins flying through teh air, paired pistols blazing john woo style and tehm taking it to the enemy using guns in h2h.
we have all seen transporter (and transporter 2) , equilibrium, and countless other movies that have this and its a nice idea.

As teh previous two posts have said, we dont want a situation of " seen one, seen them all". i think with the options , would give us more flexibility and make our opponents have to think more than sit at teh back and shoot, or bring hell hounds along.
the current figures have paired pistols, including teh awesome avatar figure with teh coat.
i think that this should be considered. remember basic harlies only have bs3 and against tank heavy forces, especillay skimmers we suck. this might help adress this rather than haing to rely on Dj's and haywire greandes. By adding this option you might tempt players away from relying on teh DJ heavy foirce that you berated above. Most players will take DJ's cause they are good and you do need the heavy weapons. By adding more gun options to troops you decrease the need for the long range support, which means that we take teh fightto the foe rather than hiding.
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Now that you put it that way, I think you MAY be right.  Adding on TL-pistols would solve the issues of the models and also give us more flexiblity.  However the issue is whether or not we want to make such a huge bridge from assault to Sisters of Battle-esque techniques.
Lovely seraphim have the option of hit and run which really helps the twin linked affair. we would not have this. Also we don't have power armour, bs4 and acts of faith to improve our shooting ( divine guidance).

as stated by english harlie, 3d6 = dread mask

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I side with Infinity-circuit here. You are proposing the dropping of a gerenal special rule to counter the lack of armourpunch in the overall army. This would unbalance the list something fierce, and bump the cost of every Harlequin up to 30 at least. It would also make a lot of powerweapons and kisses redundant, which would be a shame. Adding more options is better than removing their usefulness overall, I think.


then keep the fell blades, but i still think the reroll hits on a charge is still too good. what do you thinkof the ideas of linking it with a warlock as a psychic power, as i suggested above. this way you have to pay points for it and isn't seen as cheese, much like the chaplian litanies of hate. A whole army doing it is silly. a couple choice units might be the thing.

tarrin




Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tango on September 5, 2005, 03:11:20 PM
Now that you put it that way, I think you MAY be right.  Adding on TL-pistols would solve the issues of the models and also give us more flexiblity.  However the issue is whether or not we want to make such a huge bridge from assault to Sisters of Battle-esque techniques.

Not sure if that could be pulled off and even if it could it might come under the lable of stilton.

Just because something is not orthodox does not mean it smells like gorganzola!

What about just raising the basic harlies Bs to 4 or 5?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on September 5, 2005, 03:26:10 PM


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The 9 DJ army will still be favourable if you make spiritwalker T7, see comments below. I think that they are fine in elites.
The arguement you use for this is basically the same arguement you use for placing eldar allies in, and having mimes If people want to have a DJ heavy army let them, but they lose the options of characters liek master mime and solo. By puuting them in heavy they can still have 9 but also can take the kickass elites as well.

  But then you are making the Harlequins about firepower. They are not, nor have they ever been about firepower. It is supposed to be a "support"-option, not a mainstay in the armystructure. This is a cc-based army.

sadly big guns help win games. i personally hate the way a basic guard unit has enough guns to take out a tank with ease, but thats the way the game works.

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I can understand your reasons and i partially agree. But doesnt this kind of move away from the quins turning up where and when they like to fight seperate. If a guardian can find them this easy surely their evil powers of chaos gribbliness can as well. i think if you have to include this, for posterity sake make 0-1, or cannot be taken as the required complement of two troops.

   1. The Harlequins visit the Craftworlds. They don't need "finding them". The CWEs are sought out.
   2. They are Elites now, and not Troops, so they can never fill the requirement.

i think that they would pick from the best of teh best not cannon fodder. and having such large units really doesnt favour the harlequin way of fighting. as you siad above
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...much prefer the original idea of the Harlequins dancing across the field, summersaulting across obstacles and then cutting into the enemy than having them stop to gun down the opposition, don't you?...

then why bring a bunch of foot slogging short ranged numpties along just to get shot at. If you gave teh selection to teh best of teh eldar as elites so banshees, hawks, scorpions, wyches etc, then i could understand your reasoning but guardian , no way.

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The drop to T7 makes it far softer, S4 weapons can now hurt it and bigger guns are far more effective, let alone the hidden powerfist in a squad of marines or ork boyz. with only one availiable your enemy no longer fears it.

Thus part of the appeal. The T8-monster is justa huge chunk of cheese in the eyes of many opponents, and might block you from playing the Harlequins at all. This way it is still a formidable opponent, although allowing you to play with the list still.

but still as i siad above far too many armies are stuffed with heavy gunz which are more than enough to take down a t8 monster, so why make it suspectible to st4.  most guns which hurt t8 are going to be above ap3 anyway, and a 4+ save really ins't that good. with the devastator, retributor, havoc, tanks, destroyers and guard with meltguns and plasma glaore why take away this units primary advantage. by making 0-1 you limit the cheese by two thirds. a price hike and shorter range and more flavoured weapons and we have a good unit.

 
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We are making a playable list out of the old material. There is no either/or there. However, it is anot about adding "cool stuf" as it appears to us. That would make either a splintered list or a vastly overpowered one.
but surely that where a playtest comes in. ideas put forward played and discarded when needed. If the ultimate aim is to present GW with a workable list then we should be adding stuff that we want, just ensuring that its not overpowered by self regulation. I know many lists made online suffer this but we should be above it. Makes whats nice and works, not put cool over sensibility at any time.
 

i hope that my comments make sense.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on September 5, 2005, 03:28:57 PM
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What about just raising the basic harlies Bs to 4 or 5?
because you are getting something really good for free. We want to pay for our natty stuff and by just bumping up stats you add to the arms race. twin link options means that you can tailor your force towards shooting , rather than just having a sword and h2h army that can shoot well.

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tango on September 5, 2005, 03:47:52 PM
Its how they used to be, They allready have enough weeknesses. (no armour saves, low strengh and low toughness). But if the Bs was to be raised, the  cost of plasma pistols and fusion pistols should also be altered accordingly.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on September 5, 2005, 05:29:34 PM
Tarrin: for a second time please use the modify button instead of double posting ;)

With regard to Seraphim/Sisters of Battle: My point is not that we have Hit & Run or Power Armor.  Sisters of Battle are a unique army in that they are build for short range firefights, not close combat, and not long range firefights.  If we give Harlequins the option of TL pistols I'm worried they might turn into a short-range firefight army that can also easily assault and decimate enemies.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on September 5, 2005, 05:42:00 PM
ok how do i do that. i cant see me double posting... am i just been dumb?

sisters have pretty decent long range stuff now, with 4thed and retributors, exorcist and 20 woman units with bolters.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on September 5, 2005, 05:56:02 PM
ok how do i do that. i cant see me double posting... am i just been dumb?

Double posting means you make two posts in a row. Basically, if you are the last person to comment a topic, you shouldn't post again. Instead, if you look at your last post, you will find an icon that looks like this: (http://www.40konline.com/Themes/default/images/english/modify.gif). Click on that, and you can edit that last post, and add whatever else you have to say.

Simple, eh?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Red Avenger on September 6, 2005, 04:07:07 AM
Here are my questions that are regarding 4.ed Harlequins:

1.   Eldar allies: Can I have Black Guardians?
2.   Mockingbird: Can I use two mockingbirds to fire a single beam-much like a squad of vibro cannons?
3.   Do I have to take break test if I am using Eldar vehicles (please explain why)?
4.   Can I have Tau  (looted) vehicles (not listed but still am not sure why Harlequins couldn't use them)?

Thanks for your answers!
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on September 6, 2005, 04:19:55 AM
1. No. They are not listed so you can't take them.
2. No, as they are different units they cannot combine like that. Only batteries can do that.
3. They might break down just as easily as any other stolen vehicle. It is not a psychological Break test, but a Breakdown-test.
4. No, not in this version. It might be added later.

Ok, so those eneed clarified, obviously. I might as well fix other errors we have found. Can you remind me what else there was that we needed fixing?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: SeriousCallersOnly on September 8, 2005, 02:31:17 PM
For what it's worth, as a marine player, I find T8 wraithlord very hard to take down before it gets far too close. A T8 Spiritwalker with holofield would be nigh unstoppable, and for only 140 pts with a BL.T7 seems to be more in keeping with the harlequin thing. I played against a harlequin player using T7 rules and it still took everything I had and two turns to bring down. You can change the weapons, but the power of a wraithlord seems to be the ability to tie up expensive squads in protracted melee, and tearing holes in tanks.

With Rasmus on this one tarrin.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on September 8, 2005, 05:27:44 PM
but with the new ability in 4th ed to hide a powerfist in a squad, combined with marines "no fear" rule which means they wont run from combat, likewise with the orks able to hide a powerclaw in a 30 man unit, so tieing up a unit isn't really an option. there is no way a wraithlord of any type could survive this.  making them t7 only further aid this and supports my argument, as basic marines could hurt it in hand to hand. combine this with the number of lascannon, multimelta, railguns , plasma, etc, and t7 would really hurt this unit.

i propose as i have said before, leave the stats the same, 0-1, price hike, and give it shorter range weapons such as d-cannon and vibro cannon.

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You are proposing the dropping of a gerenal special rule to counter the lack of armourpunch in the overall army. This would unbalance the list something fierce, and bump the cost of every Harlequin up to 30 at least. It would also make a lot of powerweapons and kisses redundant, which would be a shame. Adding more options is better than removing their usefulness overall, I think. 


you are kidding right? how did you work out that increase.

ork slugga boy 9 pts, ws 4, t4, 6+ save, 3 attacks, and str pistol, heavy close combat weapon, 30 man unit with hidden claw. need to kill 19 of them, before they might run.
let alone thier elites, and trukk boyz.

the heavy close combat weapon isnt beardy at all. we have same base attacks as the basic ork, and less toughness.

if anything giving all harlequins teh hcc rule whatever weapon they use, would be simple. hcc would add to effectiveness of kisses, make the standard power weapon heavy unit a thing of the past with power weapons been a choice against certain foes.
by doing this we get rid of the need of reroll misses when we charge as what we hit with is more effective. it flavours the army, ( finding chinks and holes in armour) and would stop the beard claim against any special rule, which isn't needed as rules  exist to give teh edge we want to have.



Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on September 8, 2005, 07:48:09 PM
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hcc would add to effectiveness of kisses, make the standard power weapon heavy unit a thing of the past with power weapons been a choice against certain foes.

Pray tell: why do you want to have everyone take 2 Harlequin's Kisses in their army against the average foe, instead of achieving a balance?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on September 8, 2005, 08:36:17 PM
then just make it a base rule that they get hcc if using standard weapons, not if they use kisses or power weapons, but just don't charge for it, and remove the charge thing...

remember i am not arguing this as a point on the choice of weapons, more than as a balance to remove the need to have the hit and fade reroll misses when charging, which i think is, and with my playtesting, is grossly overpowered.

personally i am in favour of lots of kisses over power weapons. i think that having a army specific piece of kit should be promoted, but not at the point of having an overpowered army.

the harlequins should be unique, have a distinct fighting style and look the part on the field. But no at the loss of achieving fairness, balance, choice and becoming a one trick army.
the last thing any of us want to see is a beardy army, that people don't like playing becasue theey have no chance agaisnt it.



Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on September 9, 2005, 02:55:23 AM
the last thing any of us want to see is a beardy army, that people don't like playing becasue theey have no chance agaisnt it.
  I can think of a few people who would take exception at an entire army with hcc easily enough not to play them at all. The option oto get it for some is one thing, but giving it to an entire army for free (as you did not propse a gerneral point-increase here)  would be a massive dose of cheddar in the eye of many of the people I have played with.

Question; if you faced Marines and he one day stated that all of his marines had gotten S5 for free, the entire army, would you not react? Marines are supposed to be super-strong so it makes sense in the fluff, but would it not kill a lot of the balance of the gameplay?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on September 9, 2005, 01:16:01 PM
are those players using marine equivalents?

but teh hcc is much less beardy than teh charge reroll misses.

ork get the hcc for free, and people don't say they are beardy, even though they have cheap massive units. HCC with Str 3 is not flangey at all, 

the people i play with think that hitting on a 3+, and there return likely to be a 5+ is pretty good as it is, without the reroll.
the fact that giving HCC  really only affects power armour armies, all but one of which have T4, is fair. still need to wound on a 5+.
already you hit on 3+ and 95% of troops hit back on 5+,
this is much less beardy than giving the reroll misses when charge which is in effect against all armies, not just power armour, so eldar, guard and tau suffer for a rule which you have put in place to deal with high skilled h2h armies.

this is doubly so, as you have now given a 5+ inv dodge in hand to hand for us, so even if the do hit, we still save on every wound. combined with all the other gear, dread masks, tanglefoots ( which i still disagree with), kisses, power blades. come on, step back and look at it.

HCC will only ever be complained at with power armour armies which are abundant, and those who dont like seeing precious marines lose combat.

if you must charge for it, then make it an option for all quins, and at +1 which is teh charge for khornate chainaxes, on a power armoured S4, T4 monster with furious charge, and more attacks than us. that unit can also take power weapons, and teh like.

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on September 9, 2005, 07:46:33 PM
the people i play with think that hitting on a 3+, and there return likely to be a 5+ is pretty good as it is, without the reroll.
the fact that giving HCC  really only affects power armour armies, all but one of which have T4, is fair. still need to wound on a 5+.
already you hit on 3+ and 95% of troops hit back on 5+,
this is much less beardy than giving the reroll misses when charge which is in effect against all armies, not just power armour, so eldar, guard and tau suffer for a rule which you have put in place to deal with high skilled h2h armies.

Not quite.  Enhanced Black Storm Guardians, large Kroot masses, and high Guardsmen numbers make us very sad.
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HCC will only ever be complained at with power armour armies which are abundant, and those who dont like seeing precious marines lose combat.

And this accounts for a lot of people--and GW has made it quite clear it is perfectly OK with this.  Should we try to fight it?
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if you must charge for it, then make it an option for all quins, and at +1 which is teh charge for khornate chainaxes, on a power armoured S4, T4 monster with furious charge, and more attacks than us. that unit can also take power weapons, and teh like.
I don't quite understand your argument.  World Eaters don't win many games against good generals for a reason--their overpoweredness in close combat is overshadowed by Blood Frenzy.  Should we make Harlequins like that, and remove strategy from one of the most tactical armies in the game?

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ork get the hcc for free, and people don't say they are beardy, even though they have cheap massive units. HCC with Str 3 is not flangey at all,
Like World Eaters, Orks have other issues too.

I understand your point--but I disagree with the basis of it.  Just because many people play Marines doesn't mean we should be geared to beat them.  If anything we should have anti-Daemon rules.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tango on September 9, 2005, 11:37:50 PM
As an unofficial army I believe that harlies should not be geared to fight a spacific foe. On the subject of the wraithlord, it is a harlequin unit, and harlequin units should not be able to walk right up to an enimy, and procede to tear it to peices. A harlequin unit should have to use cover to its advantage, and strike at the right moment. I think lowering its toughness would make it fit into the army better.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on September 10, 2005, 11:20:23 AM
Quote
Enhanced Black Storm Guardians, large Kroot masses, and high Guardsmen numbers make us very sad.
which are very rare. black guardians are ulthwe only, kroot hordes are rare as tau suits are better, and troop heavy guard tend to be used less than tanks and vehicles.

we cant be good against all armies, no army can be but we need to ensure that we don't seem overpowered against some armies as GW, supposedly likes balance.


Quote
I don't quite understand your argument.  World Eaters don't win many games against good generals for a reason--their overpoweredness in close combat is overshadowed by Blood Frenzy. 
They don't win many games becuase they are a flavoured army with no real heavy support and a defined technique,which cannot handle a decent balanced army, not because they are used by bad generals, or face good generals,  But this is why people play them, because they are flavoured and have their difficulties.
It not the winning, its the taking part.


my arguement is that you want to pay +3 points or +5 points according to rasmus to give them HCC when world eaters get it for 1 point with str 4.

orks do have there problems but are one of the best armies and the HCC is one of the reasons for this.

Ok, why didn't GW give the orks reroll misses when they get the waaagh? maybe because its overpowered?

Quote
Should we make Harlequins like that, and remove strategy from one of the most tactical armies in the game?
Our troops are fragile to shooting and with low toughness. and with such low numbers we have to be tactical at all times, unlike the run at them tactic world eaters tend to use. They have T4 and power armour, and backed up by demons.
the lack of power armour for us is covered by open topped fast vehicles which we can assualt out of. this balances out any losses we would suffer from shooting and also nullifies speed bump units as we can from assault behind them.

Quote
I understand your point--but I disagree with the basis of it.  Just because many people play Marines doesn't mean we should be geared to beat them.  If anything we should have anti-Daemon rules.

I am not saying that should be geared towards marines, but against the softer foes we are too good, the hit and fade rules make this.

instead of discussing the problem i am facing (the overpoweredness of the hit and fade reroll) you are trying to discount something that you have already partially added into the army.

as the list stands i think it is a one trick, assault army that suffers from limited flexibility, as our whole thing is based around getting into hand to hand.

i don't want to bring my quins to games only to have people sigh and mutter under their breath, because a list has been written to make them invincible in hand to hand and we can get there with ease.

look at the kit we have for hand to hand. power weapons, flip belts, kisses, plasma, hallicinogen grenades, high WS, I, A,  all the masks, halving WS of oppenents. do we really need to add more to this area. i think not.

Instead giving choices to add a few extra shots here and there, make the vehicles tricky to hit (crystal targeting matrix), a nice walker, with a nasty guns (D-cannon/Vibrocannon).
i have never envisaged the quins as a rush in and kill before getting shot up army, which is what the are now, more as a few guys bouncing around the field picking off enemy at leisure with the enemy unable to fight back or target them.

maybe rather than the hit and fade, perhaps give them the hit and run base run.

I think it would be a good for every quins player to post on a thread exactly what they want from a army, and how they see the army, in their mind.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on September 10, 2005, 12:17:07 PM
we cant be good against all armies, no army can be but we need to ensure that we don't seem overpowered against some armies as GW, supposedly likes balance.
   Adding hcc disfavours marines and chaos space marines in particular, but does nothing ot a lot of other armies (eldar, tau, nids and orks, for example) so introducing hcc would work against the concept you are stating; that the army should not seem overpowered against certain armies. Would it not be better to have a general rules that works equally for every opponent you face?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: FarseerAldruan on September 11, 2005, 12:37:05 PM
It is my view that assault troops aren't made by what weapons they have- it is their statline that does most of the killing.  Banshees have power weapons, sure, but they wouldn't do as well against a large brood of termagaunts as, say, striking scorpions, who don't have power weapons or as much speed, but have staying power.  The harlequin troupes have less numbers, less staying power, and are more expensive than these two on a trouper-to-aspect warrior ration, but are actually better in a lot of ways.  Mounted in a venom, which is less expensive even with upgrades than the standard wave serpent, and is open-topped to boot, which favors assaulty armies, and with amazing WS, I, attacks, special rules, etc., the harlequin trouper has strengths that are perhaps more subtle than a squad of power weapon wielding smurf killers or armored Scorpions, but are just as effective.  My arguement is that they don't need to be improved for little or no points cost, as that would undermine their particular style of play.  We should make these decisions based on allowing ourselves to play with harlies against opponents who criticize our fairness in modifying our own army.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on September 11, 2005, 01:08:52 PM
I agree. The options are enough as the Harlequins are enough. Augmenting them overall  would, as you say, undermine the concept of the Harequins, and make them into something else.

On that note, since they are warriors in the fight against Chaos does not Preferred enemy; Chaos Slaanesh (Noise Marines, characters with the mark and daemons) be in order?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on September 11, 2005, 01:28:45 PM
Quote
I agree. The options are enough as the Harlequins are enough. Augmenting them overall  would, as you say, undermine the concept of the Harequins, and make them into something else.

On that note, since they are warriors in the fight against Chaos does not Preferred enemy; Chaos Slaanesh (Noise Marines, characters with the mark and daemons) be in order?

then surely with this quote then you agree that reroll misses against everyone is wrong as that is a augmentation. i feel it is. we are already kick ass in combat, why make us more so?

no point on prefered enemy as we hit them on a 3+ already. preferred enemy also doesnt work on characters or mounterous creatures (deaemon lords).

perhaps for the flavour as an anti slannesh army, which is what we are, why not reroll misses against slannesh or hit slannesh on a 2+. The first preferable to the latter.

or reroll misses against chaos in general.

makes us more targeted with fluff  and fighting against other armies we are pretty good at it anyway.

this would mirror daemonhunters in the design of a targeted chaos army, but in a differenmt way as we arent armed with S6 power weapons.

thoughts?

bythe way i shall be away  onholiday with scarce net connect so please don't think you have heard the last from me  ;)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on September 11, 2005, 01:40:08 PM
then surely with this quote then you agree that reroll misses against everyone is wrong as that is a augmentation. i feel it is. we are already kick ass in combat, why make us more so?
   Allow me to rephrase. The options are enough as the Harlequins are enough. Augmenting them further overall would, as you say, undermine the concept of the Harequins, and make them into something else. The way they are now is fine enough.
   Adding hccs to all of them would also slant them into marine/cron-killers, which would be a shame as they are supposed to be generally good fighters, not just good smurf/cronkillers.



Quote
no point on prefered enemy as we hit them on a 3+ already. preferred enemy also doesnt work on characters or mounterous creatures (deaemon lords).
   That's true. Thanks for pointing it out.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on September 11, 2005, 09:17:45 PM
so what do u think of teh idea to give teh reroll misses for just agaisnt chaos?

i feel we are pretty good at fighting, and that would be the edge needed for our true foe.

and hcc, useful agaisnt marines/crons as you say but agsint other foes it has no real effect as their armour is equal or worse than 4+ so has no effect, more of a leveller i would say.

see you all in a few days

tarrin
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on September 12, 2005, 02:05:47 AM
I think that restricting the current rules back to a single faction would reduce the "awesome fighters"-idea to a very poor version against things with T4/3+ saves. Adding hccs would help with this, but hten we are removing things that work and adding more complexity just to get the same results. We have to try to keep things as managable as possible. The rules for the Harlequins are riddled wit hexceptions and special scenarios allready, and I can't really see why we would want to add more.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: FarseerAldruan on September 12, 2005, 08:28:20 PM
Good point.  If you're having trouble killing things with your harlie troupers, bring along a character- they kick some serious tail, and that's what they're there for in the first place.  Also, from one perspective, Harlequins might be overpriced, (not equal to their points value in gaming terms,) as this would make playing Harlies tough, and result in a smaller force to begin with, which is the idea.  If there is any balancing that needs done, don't upgrade the troops, because we have characters and wargear and mobility and all that stuff that should make up for it!  The high points cost of the basic trouper makes it so that we don't have too much of a good thing, so we're not unbeatable!
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Red Avenger on September 19, 2005, 11:50:00 AM
I did some more play testing and here are questions:

Do you feel that Mime master is a bit overpowered, since in the last game he took out a Dreadnought (fusion pistol) and tied an Inquisitor with his retinue and Long Fang squad (which he killed) for three turns -nasty!
Yet I have a question does certain items that doesn't allow infiltration work if Master Mime is using Master Infiltration rule?
Harlequin Warlocks are psykers; right so I think it should be fair if they would be classified as psykers… with some special psychic powers that would help them in combat.
Also I think we need to change a bit elite slots; I don't see the point taking the Eldar allies not if I can get a Master Mime.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on September 19, 2005, 02:14:57 PM
A bit hard to desipher therebut let me see if I get this right...
1. Master Mimes are overpowered. Care to name specifics as to exactly how they are overpowered and a possible suggested sollution for it?
2. What items block infiltrate? And no, it would not stop Master Infiltrate as it has nothing to do with Infiltration.
3. Harlequin Warlocks have been over several incarnations, and they always come out truly overpowered. Basiclaly their age is gone, which is why they are reduced to what they are right now.
4. I am not getting you about the Elite-slots. Care to clarify?


Edit: Ok... I have made a slight revision to the Revision, including ideas since page 27 and up. Updates include, aside from typological fixes, among other things...
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Red Avenger on September 20, 2005, 09:17:49 AM
1.   My question was: Is Master Mime under priced (in points) for what he can do?
Appearing any where on the table and being free to charge and shoot is very unpleasant (in this he is very similar to Imperial assassins)… Mime Master armed with just a fusion pistol and H. Kiss comes up 98 points (or more? - am working so I can't check) but can potentially earn back 2x much! (In any game I used him he was well investment). But I know I don't have much experience with Harlequins so let me ask it again is Master Mime under priced?
Solution; make him1 per Mime Squad or rise his value for a few points?

2.   Items that can block infiltration- such as Space Wolf's familiar (allow infiltration only on 4+). I just wanted to ask if I was right, he quite insisted that I have to throw the dice. In the end I didn't know if M. Mime can use his ability before.
3.   I see…
4.   Like I said I don't know why I should take Eldar allies- I have one of the best Eldar units as troop choices why would I want to take for example storm guardians in Wave Serpent (and the answer only because of the wave serpent isn't right).
Same goes for DE…
Soltilere is nice but he needs protection and a precious venom to get to the enemy’s line- Mime Master can get there without being shoot at granted he doesn't have so many attacks on the charge but basically he can take out almost any tank in the game (appearing anywhere- why not at a back of Dreadnought, destroying it and still being free to charge at unit that is nearby, not to mention the psychology factor he is causing)…

      5. I am sorry because of my English…
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on September 20, 2005, 09:29:40 AM
@Rasmus--I think the Mime limit was needed for a long time.  I like it now.

@Exodite Leo:
1. I don't think so.  He provides a nice balance to an army of generally overcosted things.  Anything can earn back twice its point cost, and the Master Mime in the above confiuration will only have 5 attacks--not very many, on the Harlequin charge scale.

2. Good question

4. Storm Guardians in a large squad could be an excellent bumper for enemies.  A small Raider squad with Blaster/Splinter Cannon is shooty and also nice in assault.  A squad of Stormies with 2 Flamers can be an excellent investment in a wave serpent.  The Solitaire is superb in large games.  The Mime cannot shoot a Dreadnaught and then charge something else, according to my interpretation of the rules.  Harlequin Warlocks can also be a fun choice.  I don't think all the elites are quite as useless as you may think.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Red Avenger on September 20, 2005, 12:20:50 PM
4. Storm Guardians in a large squad could be an excellent bumper for enemies.  A small Raider squad with Blaster/Splinter Cannon is shooty and also nice in assault.  A squad of Stormies with 2 Flamers can be an excellent investment in a wave serpent.  The Solitaire is superb in large games.  The Mime cannot shoot a Dreadnaught and then charge something else, according to my interpretation of the rules.  Harlequin Warlocks can also be a fun choice.  I don't think all the elites are quite as useless as you may think.

I didn't say they are useless, perhaps I'll try them in larger games (1000+ i like playing small games) always wanted to try DE... regarding charging I completley forgot about that!

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on September 20, 2005, 07:01:22 PM
Solitaires are, in my experience, not a good investment at points below the normal RTT level (1850).  You may have to qo a little higher than 1000 to find their strength!
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on September 21, 2005, 03:13:19 AM
With the Revision playtesting to back me up I can tell you that the Mastermime tends to earn back approx 1.14 times its points back when using Master Infiltrator. The Solitaire, the times it gets into btb, gets 3.04 times its points back, on average. Depending on how you work your masque you can more or less ensure that the Solitaire makes it, and it spells doom for the opposing army. That guy can splinter a main-assault unit on his own.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on September 21, 2005, 09:48:19 AM
Out of curiosity, what is the equipment you generally use for those tests?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on September 21, 2005, 11:05:49 AM
The same gear: D-field, kiss, blades, pistol, I think. I have all the stats saves away somewhere. Really boring though.

Oh, and I am noticing a few typos and other things - I will let you know when I upload a corrected version.


Edit: In the meantime

You need not bother with rules for Harlequins. At the Baltimore Gamesday, Andy Chambers stated for a fact that Harlequins would be getting thier own codex. I cannot remember when he said it would be out, but definitely it was coming.

They had a sit down with Andy, where he just talked about up and coming projects. The harlequins were pretty high up on the list of projects that were coming.

Just ask anyone who attended the Baltimore Gamesday and you will get the same response. I would have thought that it would have already been posted on this forum somewhere?

-Pendragon
   This was awhile back, but it never materialised. I am just pulling this as an example to how much the promises of GW are actually worth.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on September 25, 2005, 02:29:01 PM
A couple more typos...sorry Rasmus!

Under looted vehicles it should say, "on the role of a 1, roll ANOTHER d6 and..."

Under Harlequin Spiritwalker the grammar on the list of things that don't apply is screwed up--there is a weird 'nor' inserted.

One weird side-effect of the Mime Masque idea is that it now limits the army to only 1 Master Mime if a Shadowseer is taken.  Perhaps there should be an allowance for more?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on September 26, 2005, 07:58:58 AM
Ok, update uploaded. Some typos mainly. I have also tried out the Mime-masque and it was neat to play. I reccomend you try it.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on September 27, 2005, 08:50:02 PM
I'll check it out next time I play Necromortis's Tyranids--that should be a rude surprise for him!
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on September 29, 2005, 06:05:00 AM
http://www.40konline.com/mos/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=499

There is a little article I wrote a while back about the work we have been doing/are still doing on this thing. I just linked in the 4th ed revision as well.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: englishharlie on September 29, 2005, 09:33:56 AM
Just checking out the latest version. Question: Tanglefoot grenades, do they stop pile in moves in the revision or not?

Just wondering as this is the only reason I'd ever take them, it gives me another round in assault against 20+ strong units before they pile in and finish me off.

Oh and mimes. They don't benefit from the holo-suit but the master mime makes them re-roll cover saves??

Also typo in mimes description 'if' should be 'of'.

English
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on September 29, 2005, 12:15:24 PM
1. No they do not stop pile-in. Nothing in the game does that, and we are trying not to ser precedent.
2. There are other ways of getting coversaves than holo-suits.
3. And I will fix that.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: englishharlie on September 29, 2005, 12:37:20 PM
1. CJ39 tanglefoot grenades did.
2. Yeah I tend to forget that, dumb_ss.

Thanks.

English
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on September 29, 2005, 03:11:25 PM
Yes, but nothing else in 4th edition, I mean, sorry if I was unclear.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on September 29, 2005, 04:54:46 PM
Then again, as far as I know nothing else has Dispersed formation or the Harlequin's Kiss--but we don't cut those.  We have to set a precedent somewhere.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on September 30, 2005, 03:29:32 AM
How does the "no piling in"-rule impact on playtesting. I have to claim ignorance here as I have used tangelfoot only to halt pursuit, never stop piling in.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: englishharlie on September 30, 2005, 04:10:29 AM
Well in CJ39 if you check (just did myself as I have a nasty habit of mis-reading things) you'll see that when the round of combat is drawn the enemy unit does not get to move models 6" to engage the harlies. So basically in 4th that means no pile in.

So Imagine a unit of say 20 Orks, spread to a reasonable degree. You charge in and (surprise surprise) clear the kill zone. Still plenty Orks left lets say the charge killed 8. So they can't break and even if they did the kill zone is clear so no sweep. You then get to pile in and contact the Orks for the next round. Without tanglefoot they would get to pile in back and whilst giving you a lot more targets they are also going to be able to strike back hardcore in the next round. By stopping the pile in move you get an extra turn to bring the numbers down before they are able to pile in and bring the attacks to bear.

So there you go. Basically against Nids and Orks tanglefoot are going to allow you a turn without needing to face attacks or at least facing very few attacks, this allows you to bring the numbers down so when they do pile in and strike back hopefully you've killed enough to not completely lose a troupe. Charge in without them and you more than likely will not break or sweep the unit, they will pile in and they will strike back next turn, reducing the attacking harlequins to pulp.

Does that help?

Also I missed the 4th ed comment about precedence. Only 2 armies have a codex for 4th, you'll end up in a nasty circle if you wait for them all to come out. By the time you have all the books it'll be very quickly becoming 5th ed. Personally I see the entry for tanglefoot in the CJ list as a good reason for keeping the 'no pile in' thing, whatever you do with the other effects which no longer function properly is another matter. Also I've not seen anything half the enemy initiative in the recent books, does this not therefore set precenence?

English
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: SeaMonKeigh on October 6, 2005, 07:36:27 PM
I have noticed that a lot of people have complaints about the Mimes in a Harlequin army.  I think they have not examined the facts closely which reveals the truth of the matter very quickly.

When Dark Eldar join a Masque they would become Mimes.  This stands the test of logic because Dark Eldar live to inflict pain.  And everyone knows there is nothing more painful than a Mime performance.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on October 7, 2005, 02:35:08 AM
Welcome to 40konline!

I have noticed that a lot of people have complaints about the Mimes in a Harlequin army.  I think they have not examined the facts closely which reveals the truth of the matter very quickly.

When Dark Eldar join a Masque they would become Mimes.  This stands the test of logic because Dark Eldar live to inflict pain.  And everyone knows there is nothing more painful than a Mime performance.
   Actually that is not quite true. When any eldar; exodite, craftworlder or Dark Kin, enters the Harlequin ranks they always start off as mimes, and not as a test, but as a period of training, to perfect the skills that are required to become a Trouper.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: SeaMonKeigh on October 7, 2005, 11:10:45 AM
I think I found a typo:

on pg 8 "Please note that Mimes are no not 0-1". 

Should this read "Please note that Mimes are now not 0-1."?  Or "Please note that Mimes are no longer limited to 0-1?"  Thanks for the great job. 
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on October 7, 2005, 05:22:58 PM
That has been fixed, but not uploaded. Thanks anyway.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on October 15, 2005, 08:38:00 PM
hey guys, beena while, have been back to uk on holidays ,and work like teh provebial biatch, but back try and argue some balancw again  ;)

so, did anyone get chance to play test the paired gun sugestions i put forward. i have dabbled a little with them using a friends force as mine is now 8000 miles away and i have found that they work ok, as the better shooting balances out teh loss of hand to hand ability for both characters and troupes.

i priced twin linking at + 2 for base troops and half the gun cost for characters and unit upgrades.

what about teh other discussions we had going.

still got that ridiculously powerful hit and fade thing in? anyone got views on it.. you all know mine.

hope you are all well. look forward to further discussions.
tarrin
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on October 16, 2005, 03:47:24 AM
Twin-linking pistols is not something I have been able to test since I tend to favour FoF, and the BS of the Harlequins is not that poor.
As for Hit and Fade; the rule works and while it may not be perfect it is the best suggestion to date. If yo ucan make one that makes more sense (none have surfaced yet) then we would be happy to test it.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: englishharlie on October 17, 2005, 05:31:47 AM
I think I have to agree with Rasmus about the pistols, twin-linking them is a great idea but I very rarely find myself not wanting to FoF, the times that I do not FoF is usually when I'm tucked nicely in cover anyway and all FoF would do is expose me so there isn't any chance to shoot.

The one place I would use it is when I off load a venom and I'm already happy that I'm in charge range and it is worth me shooting the squad I'm going to charge. Also (not sure what you think of the ruling but that matters not) we allow a squad to shoot a transport and then assault it's contents. So in the past I've off loaded the harlies, blown a trukk and then been in place to charge the trukk boys, TL would probably help here for the times the trukk does not blow!

As for hit and fade, my own changes do not include it and although I'm not winning much I would not say that I feel it necessary. I'm not suggesting anything else so I'm not suggesting you drop it, all I'm saying is that currently I don't feel *I* need it.

Rasmus: Did you have any thoughts on the tanglefoot grenades? I just feel that the CJ39 version which stop the pile-in move are very powerful and well worth the points and now you know about this I thought you might add it back into your revision. I think they certainly warrant some play testing at least.

English
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on October 17, 2005, 06:37:24 AM
I am looking into it, but have yet to make a good model to playtest it properly. I will get back to you on this though.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on October 17, 2005, 08:32:04 PM
I have found that the twin pistols doesn't stop you fleet of footing just gives you an option when you find yourself close enough to shoot without needing FoF. It also benefits facing armies where you know you will not be able to assault, eg 11" inches away, risking and requiring that 5 or 6 to FoF to make it. Do you risk it and be shot. with our weak T and AV i think an extra option is needed.

It also benefits a unit who doesn't disembark from the venom, since they can all shoot.
At the moment i feel that all the options benefit us in Hand to hand, and opponenets (well the ones i play) have started using more vehicles, which really neutralises my force, haywire not withstanding. The pistols would add flexibility within the rules, and add an extra dimension to the army.

Its an option not a requirement  :)

As for the Hit and fade, i will propose two more possibilities.

1: just give each quin an extra attack on the charge as if armed with blades ( powerblades but forgotten batteries). this is statistically less damaging than the rerolls but potentially more damaging. also doesnt sound as bad.

you have a warlock skill that does this and this combined with hit and fade combined is really too good, with all our kit we have.

2: Allow quins to always FoF and then shoot. extra movement marks speed and skill, and allows shooting to compensate for the damage in h2h.

you wanted ideas  ;D
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on October 18, 2005, 03:17:37 AM
As for the hit and fade options you have suggested.
1. Another +1? One of the biggest gripes people have with the Harlequions is the insane amount of attackes they get in a single turn, and you want to add more? How will this make the army more playable?
2. This will, as we have discussed previously, set a precendent, which we are trying not to do. Some things do, but very few in the Revision without having been set in the CJ-rules. The less of these we make, the better.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: englishharlie on October 18, 2005, 07:58:10 AM
In response to Tarrin's suggestions:

1) IMO is a better option to 'hit and fade'. 'HIt and Fade' means you re-roll all misses on the turn you charge, so if I roll up say six hits for a harlie troupe of 6 bodies (believe you me it happens, too regularly) I then get to re-roll one ton of to-hit rolls. If I were to use Tarrin's suggestion then I jst get an extra six dice to start with which IMO is nothing much at all.

2) Suppose I can see why this would be a bad idea. But from a perspective of not caring about precedence then IMO this is a good idea.

As I say this is my opinion,

English
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on October 18, 2005, 08:18:11 AM
I am setting up playtesting for the tanglefoot. I will get back to you with the results.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on October 18, 2005, 10:32:48 AM
Thank you english.
i have never had people complain about numbers of attacks as the basic trooper and sergeant can only have 4 on the charge, 5 if you add your warlock. compared to orks, or assault marines and we get a raw deal, but then we have kit to balance. Still rerolling all our misses is too much. The SM chaplain's unit can do it yes, but that is one unit, not all and sundry.
By adding an extra attack each onto the profile, you are stating that we are better in hand to hand skill wise than they are. 3 basic, 1 paired, 1 charge, but you will stop a lot of whingers who will see the reroll as bad ju ju.

every time, i mean every time i have played with eth hit and fade i have had complainst, because 3+ with a reroll is awesome, you will hit with 80%+ of your dice, and with all our kit, waste everything. Statiscally the extra attackis weker but potentail in it is amazing, on the charge but your opponenet is less likely to complin, when you roll one set of dice , rather than two.

Also it would help in defence with use still having good fighting abilities in defence. its a trade off, does not set a precedent rule for the whole army ( rather than a unit) and will make your oppoenent and yourself happier.

good idea on the tanglefoot. better than the current rules. will playtest asap.
another idea is that tehy are used in defence much liek teh photon grenades of the tau to stop charge bonus. no need for rules changes there.

although stopping an opponent following up sounds like a rule precedence to me. are you sure you want to have this in there ;)

all armies put forward a rule precedent each book published. So long as it is to teh flavour of teh rukes you can justify it.
remember the aim is to do what it takes to have a balanced codex, not end up with a list from which only certain things are used becuase they are good.

n.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on October 18, 2005, 10:41:29 AM
every time, i mean every time i have played with eth hit and fade i have had complainst, because 3+ with a reroll is awesome, you will hit with 80%+ of your dice, and with all our kit, waste everything. Statiscally the extra attackis weker but potentail in it is amazing, on the charge but your opponenet is less likely to complin, when you roll one set of dice , rather than two.

good idea on the tanglefoot. better than the current rules. will playtest asap.
another idea is that tehy are used in defence much liek teh photon grenades of the tau to stop charge bonus. no need for rules changes there.

although stopping an opponent following up sounds like a rule precedence to me. are you sure you want to have this in there ;)
   1. When you only wound a marine 32% of the time with a trouper worth almost twice as much as one, that 80% is fairly balanced, if you do the math of it.
   2. It is "in addition to", not "instead of" the current tanglefoot-rules.
   3. No, as this rule was in the web-release and later in CJ 39. Gav is setting the precedent here, not us. See the difference?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: SeaMonKeigh on October 18, 2005, 02:04:49 PM
I have a rule clarification question.

Mimes are novice Harlequins and as such don't benefit from holo suits, Flip Belts and the like.  I understand that the holo suit grants the 4+ save from shooting and the flip belt give the 5+ in HtH, therefore the mimes receive no save?

Also, is a Fell Blade a power weapon?  I don't see what it does or what benefit it confers. 

Thanks a bunch for all your work.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on October 18, 2005, 02:20:53 PM
Correct. Mimes = save-less. Tough huh?
Fell blade is a heavy close combat weapon. This is spelled out in the Revision, I am a tad surprised you missed it. The rules for heavy close combat weapons are in the rulebook.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: SeaMonKeigh on October 18, 2005, 03:09:46 PM
Thanks for the clarification.  Why did the Mimes move to no save?  Is there something in the fluff?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on October 18, 2005, 03:17:05 PM
They never had a save, the entry in cj 44 was an error in editing. They are just not equipped well enough.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on October 18, 2005, 09:55:03 PM
Quote
   1. When you only wound a marine 32% of the time with a trouper worth almost twice as much as one, that 80% is fairly balanced, if you do the math of it.

But that trouper is statiscally going to wound a marine more than its points worth of a tau, or guardsmen. I think you are missing my point here. The people i play agaisnt think that the reroll is too much. i have played with over 20 different people on both sides of the atlantic and it was a common complaint. I really feel that it needs to be addressed. I have given several suggestions, but all have been turned down, even when other players have agreed. all i ask is that a playtest be in order.

The quins are already sick in hand to hand, without it, under CJ rules i won 65%+ of the time, even in 4 ed.  i think that the army needs to grow into a slightly more balanced force from where it is at the moment. having more h2h stuff is not needed, with the High WS, high I, power weapons, number of attacks, fell blades, kisses, masks and grenades. ok they cost but another freebie which make quins awesome in hand is realy not needed. Hand to hand is there thing i realise this, every other ary has some balance ( even khorne, orks and nids which are the H2H armies)

Perhaps if you really think this is needed ( i don't) tone it down, make it:

1: that you only get it when you have not fleet of footed (needing time to prepare for the fight, pick targets)

2: doesn't work when charging into cover ( need to ensure safe footing)

3: Is countered by tau photon grenades, creatures hitting first (banshees).
4: any other exceptions that make use not look beardy.

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   2. It is "in addition to", not "instead of" the current tanglefoot-rules.

you are joking me right. come on! what else do you want grenades that play a little fanfare when you win close combat.
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   3. No, as this rule was in the web-release and later in CJ 39. Gav is setting the precedent here, not us. See the difference?
fair enough i was not aware of this precedent. but even though a little well placed imagination never hurts. how else do you write new materials and rules for a wide ranging popular game.
please don't take my comments as harsh, i mean them in a friendly way, so no flaming.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on October 19, 2005, 02:41:16 AM
Quote
   2. It is "in addition to", not "instead of" the current tanglefoot-rules.

you are joking me right. come on! what else do you want grenades that play a little fanfare when you win close combat.
   Well, this is what they did in CJ 39, and the playtesting I have made on this has not shown it to unbalace over their points, when compared to the way they played in CJ 39. Now, I dont know how well-tested the CJ 39-list was when it was released, but it was a year or two old, so it had to have played a few games at least...
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: englishharlie on October 19, 2005, 07:11:11 AM
Tarrin:

Just so you know I don't use the EO revision. I still use CJ39 and CJ44 (no wraithlords though as I want my quins to be as much of a challenge as is possible) with very few changes to what is written down.

The changes I've made are very few and I have only made changes to the rules and not added in any units. So for my quins tanglefoot allow me to force a re-roll on the sweep roll (win or lose) and also will stop a pile in move. Other than that I've also 'FAQed' any other stuff that was needed due to the 3rd -> 4th move and only actually added 2 rules, a save in CC and the venom dismount. Other than that I'm not using anything from the revision. I'm not doing great results wise but I'd say 9/10 losses can be put down to me and not the quins. The other 1 loss in 10 might be down to the list being weak or it might be down to dice it's hard to tell.

I am in no way trying to discredit the EO revision. It is a great list and would seem to me to be very harlequinesque. However for my own peace of mind and that of my opponents we have started off from scratch and are trying to add as little as is humanly possible to the list whilst making it viable. I'm not that interested in the history, it's great fun to read but I don't feel it necessary to have the historical units in the list. As I say this is my choice and I in no way want to discredit the EO revision. I'll b_tch all night, all day and then some about the wraithlord but that's been done before.

English
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on October 19, 2005, 09:24:10 PM
Quote
   1. When you only wound a marine 32% of the time with a trouper worth almost twice as much as one, that 80% is fairly balanced, if you do the math of it.

But that trouper is statiscally going to wound a marine more than its points worth of a tau, or guardsmen. I think you are missing my point here. The people i play agaisnt think that the reroll is too much. i have played with over 20 different people on both sides of the atlantic and it was a common complaint. I really feel that it needs to be addressed. I have given several suggestions, but all have been turned down, even when other players have agreed. all i ask is that a playtest be in order.
I think that I've playtested at least 50 games with the current incarnation, and I haven't gotten a single complaint.  People may think its overpowered before the game, but after the game they realize every time that other weaknesses make it only fair.  I can guarantee that at least 40 of those 50 will complain if Harlequins get +2 attacks on the charge.  You have to understand that the conception of being 'overpowered' is skewed by stats.  People think re-rolls are worse than more attacks, no matter the actual numbers.  The best example is for Chaos: Daemonic Mutation v. Spiky Bitz.  Spiky Bitz is normally better, IMHO, but people take Daemonic Mutation because they see +1 attack and say ooooh.  Finally, if you've ever played against Daemonhunters, then you'll know that Harlies aren't all their cracked up to be in close combat.
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The quins are already sick in hand to hand, without it, under CJ rules i won 65%+ of the time, even in 4 ed.  i think that the army needs to grow into a slightly more balanced force from where it is at the moment. having more h2h stuff is not needed, with the High WS, high I, power weapons, number of attacks, fell blades, kisses, masks and grenades. ok they cost but another freebie which make quins awesome in hand is realy not needed. Hand to hand is there thing i realise this, every other ary has some balance ( even khorne, orks and nids which are the H2H armies)
What is your argument?  It is currently, as I understand it. 
1) Harlequins are good in H2H 
2) They need to be balanced
3) They have high attacks already
4)They are expensive
5)They should be focused on hand-to-hand

How does this justify your suggestion?
Quote

Perhaps if you really think this is needed ( i don't) tone it down, make it:

1: that you only get it when you have not fleet of footed (needing time to prepare for the fight, pick targets)

Won't this just make everyone always uses Venoms?  How is this good?
Quote
2: doesn't work when charging into cover ( need to ensure safe footing)
See above
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3: Is countered by tau photon grenades, creatures hitting first (banshees).
This is good.  I think it should be correct, but not for creatures hitting first.  Why?  It's not fluffy in the least that Harlequins will be freaked out by Banshee yells
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4: any other exceptions that make use not look beardy.

Quote
   2. It is "in addition to", not "instead of" the current tanglefoot-rules.

you are joking me right. come on! what else do you want grenades that play a little fanfare when you win close combat.
Have you ever tested Tanglefoot Grenades?  They are for me a waste of points in any incarnation.
Quote
Quote
   3. No, as this rule was in the web-release and later in CJ 39. Gav is setting the precedent here, not us. See the difference?
fair enough i was not aware of this precedent. but even though a little well placed imagination never hurts. how else do you write new materials and rules for a wide ranging popular game.
please don't take my comments as harsh, i mean them in a friendly way, so no flaming.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on October 24, 2005, 09:21:15 PM
Quote
I think that I've playtested at least 50 games with the current incarnation, and I haven't gotten a single complaint....

did you ask? after each game i asked players what they thought and this came up all the time. as you state
Quote
People think re-rolls are worse than more attacks, no matter the actual numbers.  The best example is for Chaos: Daemonic Mutation v. Spiky Bitz.  Spiky Bitz is normally better,
reroll are better than extra attacks, my point exactly, so why not give them extra attack and downpower.


Quote
People may think its overpowered before the game, but after the game they realize every time that other weaknesses make it only fair. 

What other weaknesses? as i pointed out above High WS, high I, power weapons, number of attacks, fell blades, kisses, masks and grenades, flip belts.
oh i assume you mean the low strength. with the new rules about not been able to strike back at all if no man is in hand to hand, the quins small unit need only kill one or two guys to enforce this if used right. even if they get to fight back they still need to be lucky to score a hit, and wound and not have the quin save.
that means with masks, and grenades you will win the combat a high percentage of the time and youre opponent will flee. this combined with the ability to enter hand to hand quickly and you are laughing all the way to the black library.

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,Finally, if you've ever played against Daemonhunters, then you'll know that Harlies aren't all their cracked up to be in close combat
.
i have played daemonhunters 5 times , won 4, lost 1.

again the statement apples, kill two and the rest cannot fight back, repeat, till dead, move on. daemonhunters are specialist army , and cost just as much, in balance. with only T4.


Quote
What is your argument?  It is currently, as I understand it. 
1) Harlequins are good in H2H 
2) They need to be balanced
3) They have high attacks already
4)They are expensive
5)They should be focused on hand-to-hand

How does this justify your suggestion?

they are good yes, TOO GOOD, as it stands.

Quote

1. Won't this just make everyone always uses Venoms?  How is this good? , 2. see above, 3. banshee yells.
1. if they want to burn there heavy slots, missing out on all the other juicy stuff then let them. watch them get shot.
2. I think this makes perfect sense, one of the primary rules of any hand to hand fight is ensure your footing.
3. If khorne berserkers, daemonhunters, and necrons suffer it so should we get a penalty. we are, bar one chap, living and have souls.
Quote
Have you ever tested Tanglefoot Grenades?  They are for me a waste of points in any incarnation.
several times, and they have proven lethal with our high init. not having anyone follow up benefits us enomously as stated above, we kill 2, noone fights back, they cannot move in, so we choose where we go, and repeat. this is flangey.

Englishharlie,
i am of the same opinion as you. the rules are fine, again i like the historical, but it would be nice to pick the nice stuff out and leave the rest. i won plenty of games with the CJ39-44-50 rules in 4ed.
i find all this extra stuff added, a bit too much. i do not have a problem with new(old) units been added but a balance needs to be taken or teh quins become a one trick army, with too many special rules and options. keep it simple ( masques)

instead of all the pansying around with special rules , this and that.
why not say we always wounds on a maximum of a 5+, due to consumate skill, lose the hit and fade, and have done with it. And this is no way beardy as daemonhunters have WS5, s6 in h2h, furious charge etc. that way we fight with our kit that is listed in the CJ's and take our chances.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on October 25, 2005, 02:30:34 AM
did you ask? after each game i asked players what they thought and this came up all the time.
  I have made sure to ask, and ponder all the feedback I get after my games. I have had it brought up a few times, but not as often as other things which has been fixed, good and bad.

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Quote
People may think its overpowered before the game, but after the game they realize every time that other weaknesses make it only fair. 

What other weaknesses? as i pointed out above High WS, high I, power weapons, number of attacks, fell blades, kisses, masks and grenades, flip belts.
   Well, the lack of serious firepower, decent transport, anything that can't be instakilled (apart from the spiritwalker) and the high cost...

Quote
Quote
,Finally, if you've ever played against Daemonhunters, then you'll know that Harlies aren't all their cracked up to be in close combat
.
i have played daemonhunters 5 times , won 4, lost 1.
  Good for you. I have played a few games as well, and if I get stuck in protracted wars I get murdered. If I play smart I can come out on top, but it is really tricky, depending on how the other guy plays them.

Quote
they are good yes, TOO GOOD, as it stands.
  I disagree. THey are about as good as they are supposed to, but some additional balancing to keep them that way is needed. However the math is getting pretty thick at this point, so it is taking its time.

Quote
Quote

1. Won't this just make everyone always uses Venoms?  How is this good? , 2. see above, 3. banshee yells.
1. if they want to burn there heavy slots, missing out on all the other juicy stuff then let them. watch them get shot.
  Venoms don't use heavy-slots. Did you miss that?

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on October 25, 2005, 12:18:31 PM
have you had chance to playtest the other ideas, extra attack? would be nice to give it a go and see. the general view of all my opponents was that it seemed excessive on top of all the other stuff availiable, especially combined with the masques.

remember i am only reporting my playtesting and giving ideas.

i disagree with lack of serious firepower. i have never had a real problem with this, as fusion pistols supported by Dj's with BL's or fire pikes really get it done.

ok the softness is a factor but they can cover ground so fast i think that is balanced.

i found with daemonhunters that as they tend to be small  forces ( grey knights) i can out maneurve them as i am faster than a termie on foot, and close range pistols ( fusion take them down).

didnt see teh dedicated transport rule for venoms, again makes them really good,

ok, maybe they should be really good in hand to hand, but with all the other options that are avialibale to them, dedicated fast open topped, weel equipped transports, looted vehicles, bulk gaurdian squads to fatten out the army , to claim table quarters, this fragile nature is taken away. They are too good. I think if you want to keep the excellent nature of the list in hand to hand, you need to lose the ability to calim table quarters with cheap 5 man squads, such as mimes and guardians. if you must have these support squads, then make them the eldar/dark eldar elites and keep them in elites. gauardians have no place on teh field with quins.


you all seem to want them as an all or nothing army, so lose the things that make them a standing force.
i have always envisaged 15-20 guys tearing across the field in a venom and on foot and riiping everything aprat with shooting and hand to hand, backed only with 3-4 guys with long range heavies, not a bulk force at the back, holding the line.

i hope you see where i am coming from. at the moment the list has all strengths, few weaknesses in my , and my opponents opinion.

in no way am i ciomplaining at teh effort put it, in fact far from it, just i feel they are not right yet and i am only trying to argue my views.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on October 25, 2005, 02:22:51 PM
I see your points, and will try out your idea again, but I am not sure if it will go over well. I will get back to you on it.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on October 25, 2005, 07:59:03 PM
you all seem to want them as an all or nothing army, so lose the things that make them a standing force.
i have always envisaged 15-20 guys tearing across the field in a venom and on foot and riiping everything aprat with shooting and hand to hand, backed only with 3-4 guys with long range heavies, not a bulk force at the back, holding the line.

Try restating this.  They are currently mutually exclusive.

We certainly respect your opinions, and it's good to know the revision isn't done!
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: DammageInc on October 30, 2005, 11:23:42 AM
Just as an aside all, been working on AB2 version of the 4th ed EO rule set, once i have it ironed out and all the validation rules working ok i will post it :)

And yes, it will have everything, got flight belts, shadowseer (with retinue and familiars), looted vehicals, warlocks, EVERYTHING :)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on October 30, 2005, 11:50:15 AM
We are all looking forward to it.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Shas'Oink on October 31, 2005, 03:14:08 PM
hmm...

ive had a quick look over the 4th ed download. very quick. i must say there are some nice touches, but also some things that, in my opinion, take it very far from the original cj39/44 list. is this a good thing or a bad thing!? i dunno, i guess its distance from the "official" listing means its less likely to get opponents approval, especially as it really does have seme nasty additions and changes to it.

things i like at first glance:
+the warlocks, good to see these again!
+venoms as troupe transports, as it should be!
+Master Mime in there, a critical element to the masque
+the "mime masque" is a cool element
+the ideas to balance out the lack of CC saves are interesting
+the "spiritwalker" needing a shadowseer is an excelent touch!
+other seer powers are a good idea, though i havent read them all yet.

things i dont like at first glance:
-i think many will see the ideas used to balance the lack of CC save extreme, and perhaps overpowering.
-the mime "disruption", while well meant, takes them a bit too far from their origins for my liking
-the master mime is underpriced. as he appeared in the troll download he should cost somewhere in the region of 100, 110 points. remember, he is essentially like a callidus assassin, but with perks... and no weapons!
-i dont feel that death jesters need to be changed from elites to heavy.

ill get back to you once ive had a proper read of the list,trying to read it off the screen is appaling!

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on October 31, 2005, 03:28:05 PM
Quote
-i think many will see the ideas used to balance the lack of CC save extreme, and perhaps overpowering.
   We are battling with that, but there is simply very few ways of making this a powerful cc-army without making it powerful in cc. If you have any suggestions please do tell us.

Quote
-the mime "disruption", while well meant, takes them a bit too far from their origins for my liking
  The original fluff called for the mimes to do just these disruptions, and you didn't get them on the fields then. This is a return towards that function, and it is very limited.

Quote
-the master mime is underpriced. as he appeared in the troll download he should cost somewhere in the region of 100, 110 points.
   Hmm... I have not seen him as underpriced. Certainly not overpriced, but neverunderpriced. With gear he tends to run off in points, and becomes a rather hefty point-burden to carry.

Quote
-i dont feel that death jesters need to be changed from elites to heavy.
   It is just a way to counter 9 DJs AND a Wraithlord, and make people pick and choose their firepower a bit more carefully, and emphasise that they are a supporting unit, not something the army is supposed to be made out of.

Thank you for your feedback. Keep it coming!
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Shas'Oink on October 31, 2005, 03:38:34 PM
countering death jesters with the wraithlord does seem to have its merits.
though for some reason my head seems to say that eldar (or dark eldar) allies should probably count as heavy support?? i dunno.

in regards to teh master mime, its the ability to turn up anywhere on the battlefield and act as normal that makes him underpriced. yea, the callidus assassin costs 120, this comes with weapons included, but none of the harlequin special rules! when you jiggle the stats around they come out that the master mime has more "stat points" and so should cost more as a base.

yea he eats a lot of points once he is laden with equipment, but that is even more reason why he seems underpriced, i mean, once he has all the special harlequin wargear and is able to turn up anywhere, plus the fact youve given him scout AND infiltrate then you got A LOT of stuff for not much points.

in regards to the armour save, it seems a tricky one... i can understand the dilemma.

as a note on this point, have you thought of using a version of the "night fight" a la stealth suits or "grey knight "shrouding" rules. IMO the night fight vision rules arent too effective though at long range they can work.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on October 31, 2005, 07:31:34 PM
As far as The Shrouding in reference to Harlequins this was discussed earlier (page 14-15??) but the gist of the argument was that playing against Daemonhunters is actually really annoying and too cumbersome to work with Harlequins.

Relating the Master Mime to the Callidus is right--it seems like you are correct.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 1, 2005, 01:33:19 AM
As for Eldar Allies as heavies... If we had just allied in tnaks and such it would have made sense, but Storm Guardians are by no means Heavy Support, and as we don't want a split-category-choice it pretty much has to end up in Elites to make sense at all.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: englishharlie on November 1, 2005, 05:36:18 AM
Some comments on what's been said recently.

Tanglefoot grenades - against armies which heavily ournumber us they are far from a waste of points. Tarrin's already said this but I have to agree. They are invaluable when faced with huge units. They don't save you completely but they give you one round of grace to get stuck in before they pile in and make their numbers count. Without these Orks are a very very tough fight.

Master Mime - Hell underpriced IMO. The cost of tools I admit is high but in every other list out there units pay dearly for even having the options.

DJs can stay elite for me, no wraithlords making my life easy anyway.

Eldar / Dark Eldar troops, why not make them heavy support they wear armour and carry in general longer range guns and so basically that makes them quin heavy support. This would then add more competition for the wraithlord which IMO is a good thing.

I also agree that extra attacks would be better than 'hit and fade'. Maybe move 'hit and fade' to a great harlie masque or something similar?

A Question, not having read through this entire thread I was wondering; have there been any decent ideas that would allow the quins to continue without having a save in CC? I've come up with a few ideas but so far nothing worth mentioning, for me this would be the perfect thing to find, a rule which allows us to still own CC but that would also allow us to keep the no save thing.

English
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 1, 2005, 05:52:17 AM
Eldar / Dark Eldar troops, why not make them heavy support they wear armour and carry in general longer range guns and so basically that makes them quin heavy support. This would then add more competition for the wraithlord which IMO is a good thing.
   Foootslogging Storm guardians with flamers as heavy support? That does not work for me.

Quote
A Question, not having read through this entire thread I was wondering; have there been any decent ideas that would allow the quins to continue without having a save in CC? I've come up with a few ideas but so far nothing worth mentioning, for me this would be the perfect thing to find, a rule which allows us to still own CC but that would also allow us to keep the no save thing.
   None that have worked without thingks that would make the current hid and fade, or even Furious charge and hit and fade combined look pretty lame and balanced.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: englishharlie on November 1, 2005, 06:13:22 AM
Well they have armour, which makes them heavier... But yeah just a thought.

Thought as much, my latest binned idea was to make all misses go back on the opponents. So if 10 Orks attack, they score 10 hits and hit themsleves 20 times. Bit much and yes it would make hit and fade (even the wounding version) look underpowered.

English
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 1, 2005, 06:16:55 AM
Yeah, and it is also without precedent, which makes it even worse. And yes, it would be a far too powerful ability, especially when considering that a powerfist will only hit a character on a 6, returning 83% of the high-S-no-save-hits to the marine on the other end. That would upset a LOT of people. :)

Edit:
Master Mime - considering the stats (tweak to Troupe Leader but lower than GH) and its abilities, raising the points to 80 seems fair, but higher would make it impractical to use, and it would be better to lower the statline on the thing instead.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Shas'Oink on November 1, 2005, 07:27:51 AM
i agree it might make more sense to lower the stat line of the master mime, i mean, he is supposed to be subordinate to the great harlequin, rather than his equal. though close to him in terms of capability, perhaps it will make more sense giving him the stat line equal to a shadowseer?

sorry about not realising the shrouding has already been put forward, i have only recently become very interested in this thread and have not had the time to trawl through all 40pages!!?

anyway, onwards, i can see why you might put the eldar allies as elites, if nothing else, its a reversal from the harlequins as elites in eldar armies. however, i do just feel that their numbers and weapons would warrant them being in heavy support (as mentioned above). yes, flamer guardians doesnt seem like heavy support, but a squad of 20 guardians with shuriken catapults sure does! and i know thats what id take! i think this would be necessary if you decide to swap the DJ back to elites, which is a change i am definately in favour of.

in terms of the armour and CC.
why not have the Holo Suit work as is described in the CJ39 list, but that the save is treated as an invulnerable save in combat. that way the advantages (and disadvantages) of the cover style save are kept but in combat there is a much better chance of survival given the 4+invulnerable. its simple and easy, just extending the save so it applies in combat. that might well solve the issue to the extent that the added rules for extra attacks and re-rolling misses are unnecessary, bringing it back in line with the original CJ39 rules!?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Alex of Xen on November 1, 2005, 04:52:47 PM
I've stopped playing Harlies for a while now, but I keep getting the e-mails about this thread and once again my interest is peaked.  Some suggestions that might be worth hearing, all of which are trying to keep within the theme of the CJ lists and/or 2nd Ed Harlies (as those are the two versions Im most familiar with).

-I prefer the original story background for the Shadowseers with them playing the role of Fate as opposed to "stimulating" the audiance with their powers.  It was much more badass that way.  As for the benethai?  Perhaps a Warlock retinue bestowing passive abilities similar to the retinue of an Inquisitor or even a regular Farseer's bodyguard.

-Masques are a really cool idea.  But they should probably be similar to the Kindred Traits of the Kroot Mercs.  In that the all Harlequins get x ability at y cost per model.  Example: Masque of Awesomeness, All harlequins benefit from Furious Charge however if they're within charge range of an enemy that they dont wish to assault they must first pass a ld test or they will have to.  Or Masque of Shifting Shadows, all Harlequins benefit from the Hidden Set-Up rule even during normal games and may make a Scout move without revealing what unit they are.  However the enemy will always get the first turn. 

-Death Jesters staying Elite.  Now here are some changes from the CJ but I propose that they have a Normal Trouper's stats except with BS 4 and I 5.  And instead of a Power blades their Shrieker Canon comes with a built in Executioner.  Switching the weapon out with others would be cheaper (because they'd be sacrificing that S 5 power weapon, but they'd serve a more defined purpose).

--Simplifying the core Harlequin special rules.  In keeping along with the simpler is better theme of 4th Ed. here are some suggestions.
   Preternatural Dexterity: All Harlequins benefit from the Fleet special rule and have an Invunerable save of a 6, even against shooting attacks.
   Flight Belt: Harlequins have a 3" attack radius instead of 2" and ignore difficult terrain when moving and assaulting.  Their Invulnerable save becomes a 4+ in assault.
   Holo-field: All succesfull to-hit rolls against a Harlequin must be re-rolled against a Harlequin, in both shooting and assaults.  In addition any Guess range weapons will automatically scatter, even if a Hit result is rolled.  D-fields DONT force a re-roll, they are just ONLY hit on a 6 (price would likely have to go up for that wargear).
 
-Lose Hit and Fade.

-Mimes would benefit from Preternatural Dexterity but not Flip Belts or Holo-fields.  Instead they'll have Dusk-fields that make it so that anyone wishing to shoot at them will have to roll as if it were night fight.  A points increase will likely be needed.

-Master Mime should have a stat line lower than the Great Harlies.

-Models armed with Harle Kisses benefit from Rending.  May still not be combined with Power blades (except for that additional attack).

-Keep Rive Blades as Power Weapon that auto kills on to wound rolls of 6.  And no matter what toughness they will be wounded on a roll of a 6.

-I envisioned Harlequins as the Eldar Daemonhunters, in particular they're akin to the Greyknights themselves.  As such they can be taken as allies, but can't take a whole lot of allies themselves (greyknights cant take SM allies, only Guard.  And although it would make sense for the imperium to be able to call on any old guard regiment it doesnt flow quite so well with the Harlies.)  Instead of the current slightly convoluted rules for Eldar allies their should just be a new unit.  So I present:
   Eldar Chorus.  The Chorus are well, the chorus, they sing along with the dances.  Composed of aspiring Harlequins culled from the many aspects of Eldar society, that either aren't ready to be mimes just yet or arent needed to be.  They would have the statlines of a DE Warrior (because any Craftworlders would be in a more warlike state of mind, as though they were in their aspect identity and it would only be natural that their skills will have improved because of it) but they could be armed with shuriken catapults or shuripistols and ccws.  For special weapons they would get different Edlar instruments that could prove usefull on the battle (similar to the old Eldar musicians from long ago).  For each squad of Chorus you must first have a non compulsory Troupe squad, and yes the Chorus would take up a Troop slot of its own.

-Wraithlords should NOT require a Shadowseer but instead be 0-1.  New background: When available a Masque will make use of a Wraithlord to house the spirit of an especially praised Chorus member.  Entombed within the massive frame their new role is to provide deep emanating psionic music that acts to stimulate the audiance of the dance, accompanied by spectacular light emissions and special effects projected from the great machine (essentially fulfilling the fluff capacity that the CJ Shadowseer did).  At least one Chorus squad must be present to field a Harlequin Wraithlord.

-Looted Vehicles.  Although I'm not a big fan of them, they do have a historical presidence so I think they work.

Their, I've waxed poetic for long enough now.  You can go back to your regular broadcast.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 2, 2005, 03:13:25 AM
-Masques are a really cool idea.  But they should probably be similar to the Kindred Traits of the Kroot Mercs.  In that the all Harlequins get x ability at y cost per model.  Example: Masque of Awesomeness, All harlequins benefit from Furious Charge however if they're within charge range of an enemy that they dont wish to assault they must first pass a ld test or they will have to.  Or Masque of Shifting Shadows, all Harlequins benefit from the Hidden Set-Up rule even during normal games and may make a Scout move without revealing what unit they are.  However the enemy will always get the first turn. 
   That was tried initially, but the costs started gaining complexity, and this method was instead chosen to keep things simple.

Quote
-Death Jesters staying Elite.  Now here are some changes from the CJ but I propose that they have a Normal Trouper's stats except with BS 4 and I 5.  And instead of a Power blades their Shrieker Canon comes with a built in Executioner.  Switching the weapon out with others would be cheaper (because they'd be sacrificing that S 5 power weapon, but they'd serve a more defined purpose).
   Thisi s not represented on the models though, not at all. Powerblades are small things that the model could conceivably have on them without it being too aparent, but the executioner is just a whole nother ballgame. I think we should try to stick wo WYSIWYG, at least as basic loadouts go. Executioners as options might be more interesting, though.

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--Simplifying the core Harlequin special rules.  In keeping along with the simpler is better theme of 4th Ed. here are some suggestions.
   Preternatural Dexterity: All Harlequins benefit from the Fleet special rule and have an Invunerable save of a 6, even against shooting attacks.
   Flight Belt: Harlequins have a 3" attack radius instead of 2" and ignore difficult terrain when moving and assaulting.  Their Invulnerable save becomes a 4+ in assault.
   Holo-field: All succesfull to-hit rolls against a Harlequin must be re-rolled against a Harlequin, in both shooting and assaults.  In addition any Guess range weapons will automatically scatter, even if a Hit result is rolled.  D-fields DONT force a re-roll, they are just ONLY hit on a 6 (price would likely have to go up for that wargear).
   The holo-field makes things a lot more complicated than a coversave. Imagine a large battle and having to tell your opponent that every shot he hits in the entire army against the Harlequins have to be re-rolled? It would take forever.
   In honestly, the simplest way to handle all of this is just to combine the flip-belt save and the holo-field save to a single invulnerable save. How does that sound to all of you? 5+ across the board? But then, in all simplicity, if would work against everything, to not confuse the issue any further.

 
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-Lose Hit and Fade.
  Ok. Some math then.
   Without hit and fade 10 Harlequins without special weapons charge an equal number of marines (in this case 17 of them). Let's assume that all get within killing-distance and can thus launch their 40 attacks (imagine that at +1 attack as per the suggestions above... lots of dice...) Now of those a total of 26 will hit, and out of those 8 wound. This results in 2.9, or 3 wounds unsaved. That's about 45 points. Now the marines hit back. 14 marines kill 2 Harlequins, or about 50 points. So far it looks ok, even though it does not bode well.
   If the marines charge, the Harlequins still manage to kill 3 of them before they get to strike, but with the counterblow is nastier, killing 4 harlequins, with a 5+ cc-save. If the marines have frag-grenades the numbers are bleaker; Harlequins killing 48 points of marines while the marines kill 122 points. No, you think, what's the problem? Equal points overall, right, and the marines had the edge with the fraggrenades? Seems fair, and with special weapons the numbers shift to the favour of the Harlequin. Great huh?
  That's not quite right though. The Harlequins are supposed to be really great att cc, and this is balanced by a lack of firepower. The Marines are to be a little above so-so level at both, but still manage to kill their points against Harlequins. In shooting it is a slaughter, as the harlequins can kill2 marines witha round of concentrated shooting, whereas the marines will kill 15 Harlies, or 1.5 times the points back, even with a 4+ coversave.
   Hit and fade does not help the Harlequins when they get charged, as the rules is there as an incentive to plan and launch raids rather than to get charged, or get into protracted wars. With the current hit and fade the first charge would have hit 35 iunstead of 26, and wounded 11 instead of 8, killing another marine. Now those who scream that this is wildly unbalanced, pleased, before you do, run the numbers on this, and show me how the Harlequins can remain a potent force in cc, without shifting them over to a firepower-army, without some such rule. Please?


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-Mimes would benefit from Preternatural Dexterity but not Flip Belts or Holo-fields.  Instead they'll have Dusk-fields that make it so that anyone wishing to shoot at them will have to roll as if it were night fight.  A points increase will likely be needed.
  This would be increasing complexity again. We are trying to tonedown the special rules, not add more of them at this point. Besides, wit ha Shadowseer you can get that effect for your favourite Mime-troupe.

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-Master Mime should have a stat line lower than the Great Harlies.
   He does, on all counts except S and T... He also costs more. What are you reading?

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-Models armed with Harle Kisses benefit from Rending.  May still not be combined with Power blades (except for that additional attack).
   In addition to or instead of their current rule?

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-Keep Rive Blades as Power Weapon that auto kills on to wound rolls of 6.  And no matter what toughness they will be wounded on a roll of a 6.
    At what point-increase?

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-I envisioned Harlequins as the Eldar Daemonhunters, in particular they're akin to the Greyknights themselves.  As such they can be taken as allies, but can't take a whole lot of allies themselves (greyknights cant take SM allies, only Guard.  And although it would make sense for the imperium to be able to call on any old guard regiment it doesnt flow quite so well with the Harlies.)  Instead of the current slightly convoluted rules for Eldar allies their should just be a new unit.  So I present:
   They currently can't take that many allies, and not anything overly powerful either.
   The current allies-rule is supposed to mimic the Harlequin ally-rules for other Eldar armies, but it has to be limited to avoid a lot of powergaming. How is a limited choice with limited options convoluted? Please elaborate.

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   Eldar Chorus.  The Chorus are well, the chorus, they sing along with the dances.  Composed of aspiring Harlequins culled from the many aspects of Eldar society, that either aren't ready to be mimes just yet or arent needed to be.  They would have the statlines of a DE Warrior (because any Craftworlders would be in a more warlike state of mind, as though they were in their aspect identity and it would only be natural that their skills will have improved because of it) but they could be armed with shuriken catapults or shuripistols and ccws.  For special weapons they would get different Edlar instruments that could prove usefull on the battle (similar to the old Eldar musicians from long ago).  For each squad of Chorus you must first have a non compulsory Troupe squad, and yes the Chorus would take up a Troop slot of its own.
   This would just make fora cheaper better mime, and adds nothing of the Allies-feel.


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-Wraithlords should NOT require a Shadowseer but instead be 0-1.
    The shadowseer is there to make sure that the wraithlord is not used in small-point battles, as he/she tends to drain a bit of points him/herself. A safeguard, as it were. And the spiritwalker is 0-1... Again, what are you reading? Are you readin the 3rd ed revision? If so, stop, and read the 4th ed one instead.





Now, it seems I have unfortunately taken the role of antagonist here. You all have some great ideas, and it seems I am shooting them down. This is not an indication that your ideas are bad as such, but that they either.
a) are poorly tested, or thought through, and would unbalance the game in ways you have not thought of yet.
b) breaks the Harlequins from the traditional feel that the Revision was set up to preserve. Novelty in its glory and all, but it is not what the Revision should be.

From the beginning I got a lot of feedback, and it formed the Revision into the basis of what it is currently. The majority of playtesting was performed by me and my group, and I have assumed the responsibility to safeguard the integrity of the list, as well as edit the changes that we have thought up. While the Community has helped form the Revision, I have been the one who have had to maintain it. As such, I am also stuck defending the views of previous contributors and playtesters, even though the ideas were not mine, against ideas that would thwart their hard work and unbalance or overpower (alternatively underpower) the ideas and thoughts they had.
   I don't want to have to do that, and I hope none of you are taking it personally, but really, the Revision has found a state where it is pretty solid right now, and major shifts like the introduction of new units, major changes of rules, introducing new complexities and setting precedents (yes, it is one of my principal worries) would make the list worse, not better. And I am not talking about a list-power worse, but a playablility and integrity-worse. I hope you can understand this.

   In keeping with this I ask that before you make suggestions to radically change something; please, think it through first, do the math on it, playtest it and then tell it to us for consideration. It is easy to spout out ideas, but it leaves me in the uncomfortable position of having to pick them apart, something I am not enjoying, currently. Please have some sympathy for this.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on November 2, 2005, 12:04:03 PM
I like the idea of a standard Inv save across the board, would makes things a lot simpler. Perhaps, quins and characters get 4+ Inv and mimes get 5+ inv, to balance out point costs. would make the D-field really good, but a price hike would cover that.

If we do this, then we can remove the Always in Cover rule, as we would not need it. This then removes the problems with been charged by units with frag grenades, so supports the excellent nature of our troops in hand to hand, noone would want to fight them as we should go first in all circumstances. perhaps to ensure this, all quins should have init 6 or better and mimes 5. With the new rules needing to only kill the front line so opponent cannot fight back we have a winning scenario.

how is teh other hit and fade playtesting going, extra atack and all. the extra attack would benefit with what i stated above. balance in offense and defence.

chorus? no thanks, it a cumbersome idea. still think allies are a bad idea, as they stand now.
1 unit of specials would be nicer than guardians.

no one is complaining at you playing devils advocate Rasmus, but these boards are for ideas, and discussion, and creative genius. maths and playtesting would lose that.
The list is getting there but my opinion is it has too much complexity, too many possibilities of really souping the army up to the point of silliness.

good work though
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 2, 2005, 01:45:30 PM
I like the idea of a standard Inv save across the board, would makes things a lot simpler. Perhaps, quins and characters get 4+ Inv and mimes get 5+ inv, to balance out point costs. would make the D-field really good, but a price hike would cover that.
   The mimes are currently not enjoying any save at all. Are you saying they should get one?
 
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If we do this, then we can remove the Always in Cover rule, as we would not need it. This then removes the problems with been charged by units with frag grenades, so supports the excellent nature of our troops in hand to hand, noone would want to fight them as we should go first in all circumstances. perhaps to ensure this, all quins should have init 6 or better and mimes 5. With the new rules needing to only kill the front line so opponent cannot fight back we have a winning scenario.
   I am not sure about that, but it is a possibility.

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how is teh other hit and fade playtesting going, extra atack and all. the extra attack would benefit with what i stated above. balance in offense and defence.
   It has not turned out well. Against marines they are not gaining their points back, more people are complaining about it within the group, and it takes longer to do (which surprised me) and against many other things they are now a vast overkill, something which the re-roll does not do (against things with less armour the added attacks simply sweeps away 2x their points, where the reroll just ensures equal footing, under the charge. When they get charged the extra attack kills off too many attackers to be sensible.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Shas'Oink on November 3, 2005, 06:59:55 AM
as a side, i thought, and was under the impression that mimes, were actually better trained than troupers, well, at least just trained in a different field, not worse trained.
they play the daemons, which, technically speaking should be more difficult than plaing the chorus roles, mentally and all. plus, they are under the direct command of the master mime, who himself is practically one stop off becoming a great harlequin. i dont think that the mimes should be any worse than the troupers in all honesty.

next. if you say the all over 5+ save, that drops survival rate even lower. if it counts as inv, then you still got weapons which can ignore them, fighting against grey knights would be a nightmare. plus the template rules would be lost, which i think add to the character. like i said earlier, i think just extending the save to combat, but keeping the downs of the cover save for shooting. so you have 4+ cover which becomes a  4+ inv in combat. to make things clearer, that should all be in the holo suit entry, not partly within the flip belt entry.

i agree with rasmus on the death jesters.

im still a bit dubious about the hit and fade, and im not sure if they need it. the fact that most harlequins, especially the characters have such a high WS, and they half the enemies WS means that they not only hit easier, but they also get hit less. im no maths wizz, but i think the hit and fade rules would be perceivind as OTT. especially if the dice really go your way and you end up getting 35-40 wounding hits (taking your example!). i think im gonna go test it out though, like you said.

i also agree with rasmus on the needing of shadowseers to take wraithlords.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 3, 2005, 08:01:33 AM
as a side, i thought, and was under the impression that mimes, were actually better trained than troupers, well, at least just trained in a different field, not worse trained.
   In the RT they were trained in a different field, but with the web-release they were training-to-be-Harlequins, and this is what carried over into the Revision, as a secondary troupe-choice.

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next. if you say the all over 5+ save, that drops survival rate even lower. if it counts as inv, then you still got weapons which can ignore them, fighting against grey knights would be a nightmare. plus the template rules would be lost, which i think add to the character. like i said earlier, i think just extending the save to combat, but keeping the downs of the cover save for shooting. so you have 4+ cover which becomes a  4+ inv in combat. to make things clearer, that should all be in the holo suit entry, not partly within the flip belt entry.
   "extending the save"? The cover save? There are not coversave in close combat. But the 4+ coversave (and template/blast) along with a 4++ save in cc is ok? Is that not a lot harder than the hit and fade? It increases the survivability by 16% overall, and would be a lot harder than the 16% increase in "to hit" (not To wound) for a trouper, I think.

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im still a bit dubious about the hit and fade, and im not sure if they need it. the fact that most harlequins, especially the characters have such a high WS, and they half the enemies WS means that they not only hit easier, but they also get hit less. im no maths wizz, but i think the hit and fade rules would be perceivind as OTT. especially if the dice really go your way and you end up getting 35-40 wounding hits (taking your example!). i think im gonna go test it out though, like you said.
   The statistical chance of rolling 35-40 hits is not too bad, but wounding marines is still at 7-13 wounds, which is not too much, considering the points invested. 5+ to wound is really crippling the "awesomeness" of this CC-army. Had they been S4 overall the hit and fade would never be used at all.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Shas'Oink on November 3, 2005, 10:09:53 AM
yea, that 5s to wound is a bummer, and the reason you would need LOTS of attacks. i can your reasoning, which is why i want to test it out for myself. however, there are armies that you wouldnt need 5s to wound, but 4s. at which point the rule becomes overly weighted to the harlequins. at the end of the day, as they are specialists at chaos, we should be looking at their effects against chaos. and chaos, is not just chaos marines.... daemons, traitors etc....

in regards to the mimes; i hadnt realised that they changed the way they were doing them, (only have the rules for mimes from online, not the CJ44 article, where i assume this change was made).

   "extending the save"? The cover save? There are not coversave in close combat. But the 4+ coversave (and template/blast) along with a 4++ save in cc is ok? Is that not a lot harder than the hit and fade? It increases the survivability by 16% overall, and would be a lot harder than the 16% increase in "to hit" (not To wound) for a trouper, I think.

right, im a little confused by this sentance,,, i think... erm, what i am trying to suggest is that they harlies holo suit remains the same... in that they get a 4+ cover save from shooting, but it cant be used against temlate / blast / ord weapons or weapons which ignore cover, nor to save models from vehicles that are blown up. however, instead of the hit and fade, they are given the 4+ inv save in combat. yes, it might be harder than the hit and fade in one respect, but it also does not penalise SOME opponents just because they get wounded on 4+ rather than 5+. that would just encourage more people to use marines. of course, the save in combat, will only be for combat, so weapons which ignore inv saves would ignore their save, theres not so many of those though.

now, while your next arguemtn will probably be that the hit and fade would get combats over quicker you might want to consider the effects harlies can have on opponent leadership. they have several items which can reduce leadership or make the tests harder. meaning that its not all about killing the greatest number of models when you charge, but bout killing enough to make the enemy run, which they are then want to do. at which point the high Initiative will mean many are cought and killed, except for those pesky marines of course.

in reference to that, i would really consider a small change to the mask of fear, patroned by the troll 25. basically, the mask of fear gives a -2 to enemy leadership rather than a -1. this is basically to increase the chances of the enemy runing, and also because it seems many armies these days are almost entirely Ld 10, which they never used to be.

also, in reference to the harlies hitting range. you changed it to 3", however, the tyranids already have a precedent of this, when their rules changed, which were similar to the harlie ones, their range was changed to 4" rather than 2" (as opposed to your change to 3"). i think it should be changed to 4" too. firstly to stay in line with the other rule changes, and second to allow more models to be in range, giving more attacks, more wounds, more chances of enemy casualites, more chance for enemy to take the Ld test, more chance for them to fail and more chance of the harlies to catch and kill them...

all this using extensions or minor changes to existing rules rather than bringing in another new rule?!
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 3, 2005, 10:48:44 AM
yea, that 5s to wound is a bummer, and the reason you would need LOTS of attacks. i can your reasoning, which is why i want to test it out for myself. however, there are armies that you wouldnt need 5s to wound, but 4s. at which point the rule becomes overly weighted to the harlequins. at the end of the day, as they are specialists at chaos, we should be looking at their effects against chaos. and chaos, is not just chaos marines.... daemons, traitors etc....
   The majority of Chaos (CSM, Daemons and some of the traitors (mutants, hounds and spawns)) have T4 though. If we want to be specialist in fighting Chaos we should therefore be tooled to fight htings with T4 rather than T3, correct? Without bumping S to 4 it is simpler to make arule to make the to-wound-roll a bit easier, and this is what Hit and fade is, withing certain limitations.

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right, im a little confused by this sentance,,, i think... erm, what i am trying to suggest is that they harlies holo suit remains the same... in that they get a 4+ cover save from shooting, but it cant be used against temlate / blast / ord weapons or weapons which ignore cover, nor to save models from vehicles that are blown up. however, instead of the hit and fade, they are given the 4+ inv save in combat. yes, it might be harder than the hit and fade in one respect, but it also does not penalise SOME opponents just because they get wounded on 4+ rather than 5+. that would just encourage more people to use marines. of course, the save in combat, will only be for combat, so weapons which ignore inv saves would ignore their save, theres not so many of those though.
   They are at 5+ right now, and it has worked out fine. It would be a shame to sacrifice hitting-power offencively to increase survivability (drop hit and fade for 4+ cc-save) for an army that does not have have the fluff for it, but rather has the fluff for lighting strikes and disappearing afterwards, not get in protracted wars.

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in reference to that, i would really consider a small change to the mask of fear, patroned by the troll 25. basically, the mask of fear gives a -2 to enemy leadership rather than a -1. this is basically to increase the chances of the enemy runing, and also because it seems many armies these days are almost entirely Ld 10, which they never used to be.
   With the masks, greandes and such, is that really necessary. Most things run under Hit and fade as they are.


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also, in reference to the harlies hitting range. you changed it to 3", however, the tyranids already have a precedent of this, when their rules changed, which were similar to the harlie ones, their range was changed to 4" rather than 2" (as opposed to your change to 3"). i think it should be changed to 4" too. firstly to stay in line with the other rule changes, and second to allow more models to be in range, giving more attacks, more wounds, more chances of enemy casualites, more chance for enemy to take the Ld test, more chance for them to fail and more chance of the harlies to catch and kill them...
   I made some playtesting on this when we started on the 4th ed rework, and it was really powerful, and 3" was more than enough. However, if you want to test it and see if it needs 4" then go ahead, but with models in Btb +3 ranks behind them (that's 3") you easily get an entire Harlequin troupe (as they are never more than 10).
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Shas'Oink on November 3, 2005, 10:59:42 AM
well, its just that considering that their coherency is 4", it goes to reason that their hit range should also be 4". i mean, otherwise, when you are charging at the longer range, 5 - 6", then most of your guys are not going to get in!?

and yea, i kinda shot myself in the foot about the chaos stuff, though i still feel that the hit and fade rules will penalise the non t4 armies and units out there. and thats what i see as unfair. besides, the harleuins kisses are there to deal with the tougher stuff. as a side note, i too thought about the kisses having rending, instead of their instant death on a 6 to wound. i think rending makes them more fluffy,

in essence, i disagree with the hit and fade rules, but not for the need for them. in short, i would prefer to makes smaller changes here and there which end up with a similar result. adding a brand new rule seems to just complicate matters.

bear in mind, the 4+ cc save is not meant as a "big bulky armour", its no different to rune armour. and in effect it represents their speed of movement and the disorientation of the holo field, the enemy hitting thin air. i can see it working, and have tested both a 5+ and 4+, and think that the 4+ is really the way to go. plus it is much easier to implement.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 3, 2005, 12:36:33 PM
well, its just that considering that their coherency is 4", it goes to reason that their hit range should also be 4". i mean, otherwise, when you are charging at the longer range, 5 - 6", then most of your guys are not going to get in!?
   I will look into it.

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and yea, i kinda shot myself in the foot about the chaos stuff, though i still feel that the hit and fade rules will penalise the non t4 armies and units out there. and thats what i see as unfair. besides, the harleuins kisses are there to deal with the tougher stuff. as a side note, i too thought about the kisses having rending, instead of their instant death on a 6 to wound. i think rending makes them more fluffy,
   I think that since the majority of armies played are predominantly T4 that issue is made bigger than it really is. Riveblades could well be rending, but I am not sure on the kiss. It is made to kill multiwound-characters/monsters and should not be removed from that role, as nothing can really fill it.

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in essence, i disagree with the hit and fade rules, but not for the need for them. in short, i would prefer to makes smaller changes here and there which end up with a similar result. adding a brand new rule seems to just complicate matters.
   well do the math on a combination of rules/tweaks that lands at the same efficiency then, and then suggest it.

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bear in mind, the 4+ cc save is not meant as a "big bulky armour", its no different to rune armour. and in effect it represents their speed of movement and the disorientation of the holo field, the enemy hitting thin air. i can see it working, and have tested both a 5+ and 4+, and think that the 4+ is really the way to go. plus it is much easier to implement.
   But with the 4+ save they would severely outclass other cc-supertroops like wyches, who have a 6+/4++, whereas the harlequins have 4+(cover)/5++...
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Alex of Xen on November 3, 2005, 06:07:53 PM
Sry, I was reading the 3rd Ed. Oops, looks like I'll need to save a copy of the revision.

Responces:

-Sry, I meant to delete the comment about the Master Mime, I looked a second time and saw I was wrong.  I forgot to go back over my post however. 

-Your also right about forcing the opponent to  re-roll succesful hits.  A counter point,  following the Eye of Terror Harlequins mission I DID suggest an all around 5+ Invulnerable Save, and it was disregarded.  I know it was this forum, not entirely sure if it was this thread.
 
-As for Preternatural Dexterity applying to Mimes it at least gives them SOME protection.  And with the other Harlequins makes them even more deadly in the assault.  As for them being able to take on Wyches, Wyche weapons still shear off an attack from the Harles so it isnt too unbalanced, and Harlies do cost alot more points.  You are however right about the counting as night fighting rules.  But I would like to point out that the goal as impressed upon me by the general flow of this thread is NOT toning DOWN the special rules so much as making them SIMPLER.  And by using a special rule that already exists (see the Tau Stealth Suits) that means an already existing wording is present, and thus is simpler to playtest.

-My point about the Allies is that they don't really fit.  It would seem to be too much effort for the Harlequins to take along A small limited number of Eldar when they could just use their own highly trained members.  I can see the point in allowing them to be taken as a counterpoint to Harles being available to normal Eldar, similar to how Daemonhunters can be taken as allies in normal imperial armies.  However, Harlequins are ELITE compared to regular Eldar units, the same is not true vice-versa.  But for those that did want the option of taking a massed unit of some sort I gave them the option of Harlies in training in the form of the Chorus because it fulfills a similar battlefield role, doesnt require multiple codicies, and seems more fluffy.  Of course if no one likes it, which seems to be the consensus, it can just as easily be tossed.  It also provided a fluffy reason for the Harlequin Wraithlord i.e. Spiritwalker, which I know from the past there had been some debate about.

-The rending on the kisses is Instead of the insta kill and always wounding.  It might make sense to make it +4 pts on a basic Trouper because in that sense its not as usefull but it could stay at 10 for a character because they get a decent enough chance of rolling those 6s.  Of course, considering that change it might be an option to keep it at +5 on the trouper but allowing Troupers the option of buying 3 or 4 kisses or power weapons per squad.  It could get a little expensive but it would really add a killer edge.  And in the case of wargear it might actually make sense to allow it to work with the power blades because then the only additional benefit the kiss gives is the auto wound on 6.  hmm...

-About the removal of hit and fade I actually had an idea to replace it that I forgot to type.  Again, sloppy posting on my part.  I do believe it was giving Harle's the Surprise Assault special rule.

-As for the Rive Blades, they would likely stay 15 points same as they are in the CJ39 armory.

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Riveblades could well be rending, but I am not sure on the kiss. It is made to kill multiwound-characters/monsters and should not be removed from that role, as nothing can really fill it.

-actually Riveblades DONT have rending.  And they DO insta-kill on to wound rolls of 6.  Both Riveblades and Kisses had the SAME purpose.  The difference?  Rive blades ignored armor but rolled off of the units Strength.  Harle kissess dont but count as Poisoned.  Under my changes the Rive would only Auto-woundon a to-wound roll of a 6, rather than a to-hit roll, so that the Rive blade could have a chance of wounding and killing those big high toughness monsters, even if its a slight one.  And in the case of the Harle Kiss, with it JUST rending (although the possible ability to work w/ powerblades) its job would actually be better suited to killing whole groups of smaller units instead.

-Although you didn't actually comment about this, I would like to reiterate that having the Shadowseer as Fate is way awesome.

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Thisi s not represented on the models though, not at all. Powerblades are small things that the model could conceivably have on them without it being too aparent, but the executioner is just a whole nother ballgame. I think we should try to stick wo WYSIWYG, at least as basic loadouts go. Executioners as options might be more interesting, though.
-Your right, its not represented on the model at all.  But neither are Powerblades.  And no they MUST be modeled on a Banshee Exarch and as such they MUST be modeled on a Death Jester.  And yet none of the previous DJs have any built on them.  An Executioner would however, provide a decent hitting punch to an army thats lacking it, and be characterful (think mini-maugetars) and easy to convert.  Again, even if just as an option that would be pretty sweet.  However the statline change is much more fitting.  First, a DJ is very competant in the assault thats true but giving him that extra WS isnt really needed, one would think that his large weapons would at least restrict his combat abilities even if he were to be as trained as a Troupe Leader.  And on the other hand, I felt strongly against ANY harlequin unit having I lower than 5.  I brought that up to GW, and was ignored, and I'll bring it up here as well.

I'm not trying to discredit anyone past work.  These were just some of my opinions/ideas.  They were radical, and I jokingly refered to that (at least that was the intent when I ended my last post with "you may now return to your regular broadcast") because they were just spit in the wind.  However, rereading all this I feel that some of them do have merit and probably deserve a closer look.  I appreciate your "shooting down" of my ideas becuase it forces them to be re-looked at.  This results in better thought, and as is the case here, better presented ideas.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 4, 2005, 01:37:41 AM
Sry, I was reading the 3rd Ed.  Where is the 4th located it havent found it on this thread? 
   In the first post. It has a link to both versions, even though the 3rd is being maintained and updated.

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-Your also right about the re-rolling of the saves.  A counter point,  following the Eye of Terror Harlequins mission I DID suggest an all around 5+ Invulnerable Save, and it was disregarded.  I know it was this forum, not entirely sure if it was this thread.
   It is something that surely needs more testing, but without a more powerful offence a lowered save will leave the Harlequins slaughtered in any cc against a 3+-save foe. That would be a bad thing for an army with virtually no firepower.

 
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-As for Preternatural Dexterity applying to Mimes it at least gives them SOME protection.  And with the other Harlequins makes them even more deadly in the assault.  As for them being able to take on Wyches, Wyche weapons still shear off an attack from the Harles so it isnt too unbalanced, and they do cost alot more points.  You are however right about the counting as night fighting rules.  But I would like to point out that the goal as impressed upon me by the general flow of this thread is NOT toning DOWN the special rules so much as making the SIMPLER.  And by using a special rule that already exists (see the Tau Stealth Suits) that means an already existing wording is present, and thus is simpler to playtest.
   But the mimes are so cheap, and adding this rule would shift them away from the role they currently have, which would be a shame, as we would have to raise their cost quite a bit to accommodate this rule. Also, in an all-Mime army it would be a mess to work with, especially in larger armies.

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-The rending on the kisses is Instead of the insta kill and always wounding.
   This radically changes the way the kiss works, and I think that would be a shame. I don't see the need to change it, and it appears that this change is for change's own sake in a way.

   Riveblades should be rending in the end, with some effect to instakill, I guess, but the kiss should not, as they then would go back to mimic eachother, with some slight twists.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Alex of Xen on November 4, 2005, 01:48:35 AM
Wow.  You must have replied right after I posted that because I modified my post a long time ago.  Before I saw your reply.  Thanks for only mentioning what you disagree with.  Anything you think might actually work? 

-And you cut the Rive blade out of your list entirely.  Both the Rive and the Harle had the same purpose.  So instead of eliminating one I changed them both so they can each have thier own unique abilities.  Thats what this list does need. All I did was give it a Universal Rule that anyone could understand.  Instead of explaining just what this widely available weapon does all you have to say is Rending.

-As for changing the Mimes, perhaps you are right.  Maybe they don't need anysave.  But adding a simple 6+ Iny save would at most result in an increase to 12 points as opposed to 10.  I already agreed that the changes to shooting werent needed, however it was an option to keep them fluffy and offer some greater survivabilty.  And in reguards to the 5+ save I only bring that up because YOU mentioned the possibility of it a few posts ago. 

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That would be a bad thing for an army with virtually no firepower.
-Virtually no firepower?  Have you forgotten about the Death Jesters and the Wraithlord?  Thats some decent firepower.  Granted their not likely to outshoot alot but they provide some fairly effective covering fire.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 4, 2005, 02:35:07 AM
-And you cut the Rive blade out of your list entirely.  Both the Rive and the Harle had the same purpose.  So instead of eliminating one I changed them both so they can each have thier own unique abilities.  Thats what this list does need. All I did was give it a Universal Rule that anyone could understand.  Instead of explaining just what this widely available weapon does all you have to say is Rending.
  I will look over the relationship between the stormglove and the kiss when I get the time, and see what can be done within the current rules for them.

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That would be a bad thing for an army with virtually no firepower.
-Virtually no firepower?  Have you forgotten about the Death Jesters and the Wraithlord?  Thats some decent firepower.  Granted their not likely to outshoot alot but they provide some fairly effective covering fire.
   That's the same as a singel devastator squad ( but a lot more expensive) and possibly a dreadnought. Compare that to a myriad of scout snipers, tactical marines, tanks and other assorted guns on the Marine side, or batteries of tank-mounted cannons for IG and you can see what I mean; for firepower we have two elements, the ones you mentioned, and that is it and all. We cannot field an army that relies on shooting. It is impossible. With that in the back of our minds, cutting out the ability to successfully negate enemy numbers in cc would be folly, don't you think?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Alex of Xen on November 4, 2005, 02:41:17 AM
Uh, I didnt say we could rely on our shooting.  Just that we have SOME.  Your damn right that the assualt is where its at.  Speaking of which I was wondering what you might've thought on the option for Troupers to take more than just 2 specialty weapons or the possibilty of a Harlequin wide Surprise Assault rule.  An idea I kicked around for a long time was that instead of making Warlocks a seperate unit, that an army with a Shadowseer would allow Troupe Leaders (likely only 3 to 4 of them) to Warlock status and they would benefit from Embolden and Surprise Assault for their psychic powers.  hmm...
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 4, 2005, 02:49:01 AM
Uh, I didnt say we could rely on our shooting.  Just that we have SOME.  Your damn right that the assualt is where its at.  Speaking of which I was wondering what you might've thought on the option for Troupers to take more than just 2 specialty weapons
   That was suggested before (all-powerweapon troupes.... *shudder*) and it is because of this discussion, and the fact that it simply didn't work out that the Harlequins got hit and fade. I really wish Furious charge would work out, but it does not...

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or the possibilty of a Harlequin wide Surprise Assault rule.
   It does not do enough. It does a bit, but the Harlequins still lose assault against equal points against CSM 9/10 times. That's bad.

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  An idea I kicked around for a long time was that instead of making Warlocks a seperate unit, that an army with a Shadowseer would allow Troupe Leaders (likely only 3 to 4 of them) to Warlock status and they would benefit from Embolden and Surprise Assault for their psychic powers.  hmm...
   Like an upgrade? Yeah, that could work. I am not sure on embolden though. Will look into it.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Alex of Xen on November 5, 2005, 02:16:30 AM
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Like an upgrade? Yeah, that could work. I am not sure on embolden though. Will look into it.

Exactly, it would be an upgrade to the already existing Troupe Leaders.

 I know it probably didnt sound this way from my earlier random as all heck posts but I did have a few goals in mind with my ramblings.  First it was to look at the original CJ lists and see what they had, and what roles the already existing units fulfilled.  Then to refine them so that they would be adapt at doing what they do best.  Next was introducing past elements of the Harlequins and even some of the regular Eldar that might've fit into the theme.  Finally, and most importanly, it was to streamline their rules as much as possible while still keeping the unique vibe the Harlies have.  Of course the all important game play balance would be the deciding factors on what would get changed and to what extent.

First, I prefered Mimes as a specialist scouting force, not Harlies in training.  And long ago I had the idea for the Chorus to fill the niche (as well as a) providing an outlet to re-introduce Eldar Musicians and b) provide a fluffy reason for the Harlie Wraithlord) of a fire base.  Because I felt that even the Harlequins needed one, even if it was restricted in numbers significantly.  Of course since that time the Revision had been started, Mimes became the trainees and the rules for Allies were introduced.  The allies idea I had occured much later after it had been talked about here and it was to allow for 0-2 Troops choices and 0-1 choice from one of everyother force organization slot of either Craftworlders or Dark Eldar (no mixing or matching) and the battle must be 1500 or higher, all compulsory slots must first be harlequin filled, and you could have no more allie squads than you had squads of regular Troupers.

And second was providing decent fire supposrt.  That was the role of the DJs but they werent really working to well for me.  Until I read the Eye of Terror mission which gave me some good ideas (one was the executioner, which was really just inspired by the fact that for the USF I was working on a Maugen Ra conversion).  Mainly the possibilty of giving them an actual armor save, but more importantly modifying the Shrieker.  My idea?  Make is 36" Heavy 2 Str. 6 AP 4.  But can also be fired as 18" Assault 2 with the same stats.  And at +10 pts it could be upgraded to fire Bio Explosive Ammo.  I still like that idea, and so my current thought is that the DJ should have the WS of 5 and Initiative 5 as well as the New Shrieker cannon and nothing else.  With a base cost of 35 or 40 points.  However, at an additional +10 points he may take either Powerblades or a weapon mounted Executioner.  And his current weapon swap costs are a bit steep (especially for that uber lame Hawks Talon).

As for the hitting power against CSM, I'll think on that one. 

For the ShadowSeer I played with him how he was under CJ 39 back in the day but I kept him as Fate and just gave his powers new names.  Misdirection became The Face of Doom and Viel of Tears became Clouded Destiny.  Of course other more Fate-ish powers would be cool.

Anyone else have any opinions on this stuff?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: DammageInc on November 6, 2005, 12:02:20 AM
Wasn't sure if riveblades were left in the 4th ed list or not, will put it on my to-do for the AB files :)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: surfingspider on November 6, 2005, 04:56:50 AM
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My idea?  Make is 36" Heavy 2 Str. 6 AP 4.  But can also be fired as 18" Assault 2 with the same stats.  And at +10 pts it could be upgraded to fire Bio Explosive Ammo.

The DJ has options to change his weapon around so I don't think altering the shrieker into a heavy heavy bolter adds anything, rather it takes away from the name of the weapon. bio-exp ammo is fun during the few times it will actually work. its just annoying that the DJ is given that as default, costs too much, and has to pay more for a weapon that is practical against a wide range of foes.

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DJ should have the WS of 5 and Initiative 5 as well as the New Shrieker cannon and nothing else.  With a base cost of 35 or 40 points.  However, at an additional +10 points he may take either Powerblades or a weapon mounted Executioner.

I4 is a tad low. i figure that if a guy has a flip belt that can let him go all over the place, the gun will have antigrav on it too and 'polearms' in cc don't have to slow one down if they're good enough, and the harlies are meant to be. Compulsory powerblades are a nuisance as well pushing the cost too high and have to go. If the DJ gets into hth the fat lady had sung for one player already. He should be out and about blasting stuff. 35p as is, is fair.

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First, I prefered Mimes as a specialist scouting force, not Harlies in training.

Totally. i don't want to model nappies on a squad especially when they're actually doing stuff Elite soldiers in the worlds armies are doing now. Who'd call the SAS trainees?

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Harlequins still lose assault against equal points against CSM 9/10 times. That's bad.

Any S3 force is going to have a hard time against higher T and a good AP. harlies are hard to play and should be because they're elite. winning is more than rolling over the opponent because of die roles. they have been left behind and need some tweaks but the list as is (CJ39+) works; requiring really good game and studied play (that i don't have) to get the best results.

now for some math: 100p of Harlies (4) vs CSM (5.5). CSM have 2 hand weapons. no one has charged.

HQ will cause 0.86% kills in a melee phase (4x3 [attacks]) x 0.66 (th%) x 0.33 (tw%) x 0.33 (sv%) or exactly 1 kill per 12 attacks
CSM will cause 2.6 kills (5x2.2 [attacks]) x 0.33 x 0.66 x 1
which aint good. against ordinary 15p SM the HQ are the same and the Marines are (6.6 men) going to cause 0.95 kills (A1). On the charge the HQ kills goes up to 1.9. If they all had power weapons it becomes 5.57 (charge) and 3.14 otherwise - so take banshees instead, the # of attacks is the same (more girlies) and they can save. all harlies need pwpn  ;D

in 'game reality' they tend to do better although even Tau drones can take a long time to crash if the dies aren't there  ;) tactic: charge where only a limited number of strikes can be returned and hope to take out the guys in 2". a harlequin shouldn't be able to, or mad enough, to jump into a base to base clump of anybodies.

ss
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 6, 2005, 05:42:33 AM
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Any S3 force is going to have a hard time against higher T and a good AP. harlies are hard to play and should be because they're elite.
  But the way they are played currently (without hit and fade) they are not elite, and are unlikely to do "their job" very well. That is the problem we are battling with here.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: surfingspider on November 6, 2005, 04:01:56 PM
elite as in their role and not their stat line. and they need a player/general that fits that bill as well (not making suggestions either way).

has anything been done on their abilities in 1st Ed list to 1st Ed opponent, or the rules under 3rd? the only big cc difference is the 2" kill zone applying to everyone instead of just them. maybe all harlies should be treated as individual characters. hehe. that will lower the number of A against them, which is really what is killing them, not the number of A they can dish out.

ss
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Alex of Xen on November 6, 2005, 10:20:47 PM
The weapon is actually based on the Shrieker rules from Troll.  I removed a shot and added a long range mode similar to the Sonic Blasters of the Emps Children.  However, I did like the exploding body parts but as opposed to having two nearly identicle wargear entries I just propsed adding Bio-Explosive ammo as an upgrade.  This way he gets two shots meaning two explosions!  Of course he's also more expensive with the upgrade and still doesnt include the special close combat weapons. 

The Harlequins are Elite already.  When I played with the original CJ 39 list they did decently enough against Chaos (I tied most games) of course, Chaos has had a new codex since then.  Hmm... the obvious answer would to be just give Harlequins as a whole Rending, but that would be perhaps to powerful and all too ubiquitous as that seems to be the favorite special rule these days (although I'm still saying it would be extra nifty if Kisses had it...lost cause, I know).  But Rasmus does have a point, they do need that extra UMPH against CSM.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 7, 2005, 02:51:37 AM
elite as in their role and not their stat line. and they need a player/general that fits that bill as well (not making suggestions either way).
  So an army that can't harm their principal opponent is still elite then? Care to elaborate on that? If we do not have the statline to back it up all we have are stories and "they should"s, but still the Harlequins will not do in the game what they were placed there to do.

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has anything been done on their abilities in 1st Ed list to 1st Ed opponent, or the rules under 3rd? the only big cc difference is the 2" kill zone applying to everyone instead of just them. maybe all harlies should be treated as individual characters. hehe. that will lower the number of A against them, which is really what is killing them, not the number of A they can dish out.
   There was not a lot we could do about it, except increase the kill-radius a bit, and compensate for the loss of this excellent rule in other ways. Hit and Fade in 4th ed has become a LOT more important than it was in 3rd ed, when the kill-radius of the Harlequins was unique.

The weapon is actually based on the Shrieker rules from Troll.  I removed a shot and added a long range mode similar to the Sonic Blasters of the Emps Children.  However, I did like the exploding body parts but as opposed to having two nearly identicle wargear entries I just propsed adding Bio-Explosive ammo as an upgrade.  This way he gets two shots meaning two explosions!  Of course he's also more expensive with the upgrade and still doesnt include the special close combat weapons. 
   The Troll-list is a scenario-list, and despite my best efforts I have been unable to incorporate most of the things in that list into the basis that is CJ39/44/50. If you want to try to make a stand-alone list out of it, go ahead, but my experience has told me that the math becomes really troublesome unless you are willing to ditch a lot of the balance in that scenario-list. Oh yeah, try playing that 750-point-list at 1500 points. It is a slaughter. The Harlequins get hacked and blown up like there was no tomorrow against most opponent. It was terrific.
   I personally think that while it was a  good idea to have a scenario with the Harlequin in the EoT (as they belong there) the list was really poorly made and oversimplified, and did not do the Harlequins justice. A "Pirates of the vampire-coast"-type list would have been so much better, but GW didn't want to invest that time into it.

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The Harlequins are Elite already.  When I played with the original CJ 39 list they did decently enough against Chaos (I tied most games) of course, Chaos has had a new codex since then.  Hmm... the obvious answer would to be just give Harlequins as a whole Rending, but that would be perhaps to powerful and all too ubiquitous as that seems to be the favorite special rule these days (although I'm still saying it would be extra nifty if Kisses had it...lost cause, I know).  But Rasmus does have a point, they do need that extra UMPH against CSM.
   Rending across the board is FAR too powerful (it has been discussed before) but did facilitate the Fell blade-introduction to stem the tide of "let's all get powerweapons!"-arguments that kept cropping up.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Alex of Xen on November 7, 2005, 03:02:38 PM
Actually I never played that list above the 750 points suggested.  I didn't expect it to fair well in anything higher.  I just liked how they handled the DJs Shrieker Canon. 

As for all power weapons and hitting power and whatnot I'm sure theres something that can be done. I'm not really a big fan of Fell Blades as Heavy Weapons just don't seem very Eldar-ish.  One idea of course is to give them a variation of the poisoned weapons as standard equipment, perhaps they keep the plus +1 A for two weapons but they wound on a 4+ or better.  Except against units with a base T of 5 or better in which case they can only Wound on a 6 or not at all.  Hmm... 
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 7, 2005, 03:51:06 PM
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As for all power weapons and hitting power and whatnot I'm sure theres something that can be done. I'm not really a big fan of Fell Blades as Heavy Weapons just don't seem very Eldar-ish.  One idea of course is to give them a variation of the poisoned weapons as standard equipment, perhaps they keep the plus +1 A for two weapons but they wound on a 4+ or better.  Except against units with a base T of 5 or better in which case they can only Wound on a 6 or not at all.  Hmm...
   It is pretty eldarish; cutting through armour as if it wasn't there. Don't mix fluff with rules, like Koonitz states. :)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Shas'Oink on November 7, 2005, 04:52:55 PM
the kroot mercs have a unit which have a rule regarding "poisoned" weapons. the unit can forgo all of their attacks (including bonuses from charging etc...) to instead make a single attack that will wound on a 4+ regardless of toughness. perhaps this can be used / adapted.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 8, 2005, 02:53:03 AM
Would you trade 4 (or 5) attacks that wound on 5+ (resulting in 1.65 wounds) for a single one that wounds on 4+ (resulting in 0.5 wounds) if you hit all of them? It does not seem to be the ticket. It would be good against high-T things like Plaguebearers and greater daemons, but that's what kisses are for, after all.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: surfingspider on November 8, 2005, 04:33:21 AM
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So an army that can't harm their principal opponent is still elite then? Care to elaborate on that? If we do not have the statline to back it up all we have are stories and "they should"s, but still the Harlequins will not do in the game what they were placed there to do.

I doubt way back when, as my figs are about 13 years old, that harlies were as murderous as you think. they were expensive then, fragile then, and still needed 5+ to wound a marine. power weapons back then increased S. but i'd still be hiding them behind a wall of blind grenades because plenty could wipe them out. chaos marines aren't pansies in hth either, give them their credit.

next time i take mine out, in need of paint stripping and a new do, i'll will try, opponent willing, a contact only attack against the harlies in melee and to remember that unless we're both in cover or they've got frag, i'm I10. I'll stll try playing them as is correctly. they aren't bad, neither should they be the best. have to leave some scope of generalship and not the Rule & Dice Gods.

ss
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 8, 2005, 05:03:45 AM
In 2nd ed Harlequins cut through Marines in cc, and had a lot of backup from very very hard characters. As these are now gone, and with the direction of the CJ-articles, we have to try to make them at pleast plausible as an elite cc-force against the principal enemies of hte game; the CSM and the multitude of armies we will face, the SM.
2nd ed is not a good guidance for how the army is supposed o work, I think. I'd rather refer to the RT-list and extrapolate to 3rd from there, wit hteh tone-downs that would entail (long-gone are the eras of the psychic Solitaire, after all :) )
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Shas'Oink on November 8, 2005, 07:46:09 AM
i believe it is wrong to make an army better at killing a certain type of opponent simply because they are the majority of opponents we face.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 8, 2005, 07:49:08 AM
So do I, but I believe that it is justifyable to make them a balanced force against those we come up against, and better at handling certain foes, like the CSM in this case.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on November 8, 2005, 01:24:53 PM
would having a rule that simply stated that the minimum that a harlequin needed to wound anything was a 4+. That way we are not overbalancing against T3 armies by adding rules, as we wound them on 4 anyway but balanced against ALL other things we face T4, T5 and higher, that could represent skill with blade and locating soft spots on any opponent. that way we would not need hit and fade and all the other suggestions here.
The hand to hand equivalent of a sniper rifle. I love the idea , fluff wise, of harlequins vaulting over carnifexes stabbing at chinks in the armour.

And no one could complain in the slightest as the opponent who take all T4 or higher (nurgle, wraithguard) cannot call you beardy as they are doing the same thing, by having a high toughness.

this also supports the kiss, which wounds on a 2+ which is then a natural extension of this skill.

simple answer to troublesome problem. combine this with the current power weapons, kiss amounts, and fell blades we are the hand to hand army, as we have the high init, and holosuit rules, making us better then anyone else.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Alex of Xen on November 8, 2005, 03:09:10 PM
Your right that would make us better than anyone else.  Too much better.  What I proposed was a whole different ball game, that it would wound on 4+, include their total attacks but only work against units with a certain toughness.  However, even that seems to powerfull, or at least to complicated.  A change then, Rending, but without the armor ignoring.  Any to-hit roll of a 6 would autowound but the enemy is still allowed any regular armor saves available to them.  Something like "strategic blow" or whatnot would be an appropriate enough title.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 8, 2005, 03:37:07 PM
would having a rule that simply stated that the minimum that a harlequin needed to wound anything was a 4+. That way we are not overbalancing against T3 armies by adding rules, as we wound them on 4 anyway but balanced against ALL other things we face T4, T5 and higher, that could represent skill with blade and locating soft spots on any opponent. that way we would not need hit and fade and all the other suggestions here.
The hand to hand equivalent of a sniper rifle. I love the idea , fluff wise, of harlequins vaulting over carnifexes stabbing at chinks in the armour.

And no one could complain in the slightest as the opponent who take all T4 or higher (nurgle, wraithguard) cannot call you beardy as they are doing the same thing, by having a high toughness.

I think that could work well, especially if it was wound on 4+ on the charge, so to give an incentive to not get stuck in protracted wars. I will run some tests and see how it turns out.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on November 8, 2005, 03:47:32 PM
To Alex of Xen,

i totally disagree,
marines basic wound 50% of armies on a 3+ and 90% of the rest on 4+. They can have power weapons, hidden powerfists and they don't flee from hand to hand. also they are ten points cheaper than our base, with power armour, and t4. combined with Ws 4 they kick butt. let alone the specialists such as trait additions (furious assualt), and such things.

the quins are supposed to be amazing in hand to hand dishing out and with the frailties its fair.
making wounding always on a 4+ means we are equal on everything except grots. a statement of our abilities at handling all comers. combined with the current hand to hand rules i think this would work.

its easy, much easier than a precedent of a semi rending rule, and as stated above no-one can complain. in fact many players will see it as a blessing in comparison to several of the suggestions put here. make it quins and charcters only. mimes do not get this.

one the note of wyches and others.

we could add that a line stating "that harlequins are masters of hand to hand and as such no abilities which affect WS or number of attacks work on them. These include tau photon grenades, wych powers, slannesh powers or nightbringers tempest"
this way we always fight to our best potential as we should. because it works on everyone its fair.


these two suggestions should replace hit and fade.

its all about the points. quins are expensive and frail. they need to be able to do stuff effectively against all armies, but without having a big advantage over weaker ones.

and fighting chaos ,which is supposed to be our thing, why not have a free upgrade in points (harlequins when fighting chaos are allowed to take one extra free upgrade per squad).

Rasmus,
ok, i will do the same, i will let you know. one the charge seems fair. but protracted wars happen especially against marines, beacuse of "know no fear" so try the always 4+ as well. problem with been just on the is that if you fail to kill that carnifex, wriathlord etc you are stuck against it with nothing.

maybe always wound on a 5+/4+ on the charge
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 8, 2005, 03:57:03 PM
How about making it "planned assault" so that it works on the charge and second turns, but never on the turn they are charged? Again reflecting the planning and tactics preferred by the Harlequins.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on November 8, 2005, 04:56:51 PM
i like that idea. if a squad of quins has not killed or driven off a foe after two rounds of combat then they deserve everything they get ;) 

Ok how about this, as a replacement to Hit and Fade.
Planned Assault
Harlequins are considered to be the best melee fighters in the galaxy and as such are masters of locating and exploiting their opponents weaknesses. Rarely, if ever, do they enter combat without a grand design to bring even the most powerful foe to its knees. To represent this units of harlequins and harlequin characters(not mimes) have the ability to wound ANY opponent on a maximum of 4+ in the first TURN of combat if they charge. This is for the round of combat that they charge and the following combat round in the harlequins opponents turn. After this the opposing unit has stalled the initial assault and wounding reverts to strength vs toughness as normal. This does not work, if the harlequins are charged, as part of a sweeping advance, consolidation and is not affected by cover, photon grenades or use of any special powers (the harlequins would take this into account when assaulting). This ability is in addition to any other special harlequin rules, such as holosuits, and use of grenades.

blimey rasmus, you and i appear to be singing from the same hymn sheet


i noted above that someone else think guardians do not fit in.
Has anyone tried using 0-1 aspect (dark reapers disallowed) , or wyches, etc.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Shas'Oink on November 9, 2005, 08:23:51 AM
to be honest, it seems odd that any other eldar would fit into a harlie army. i mean, why would a random unit of eldar guardians be wandering around with a harlequin band? the same applies to other units too!?

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 9, 2005, 10:18:33 AM
The Harlequins are almost mythical in Eldar/DE society, and those who can sneak off to try to join the ranks of thse warriors. The Allies-unit lacks fluff, but it is what it is all about.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on November 9, 2005, 12:10:50 PM
i prefer to see it as the harlequins coming to a craftworld and selecting the best to enter their ranks to train, which is why i think it should only be the best (aspects) who should be present. that way it doesn't give the quins a big unit, and keep the force expensive but very effective.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: chrsjxn on November 9, 2005, 02:52:22 PM
Seems to me, fluff-wise, that the Aspect Warriors would already be very dedicated... to their aspect, and, as such, would be much less likely to join up with a Harlequin Troupe than the more lowly guardians.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 9, 2005, 04:00:02 PM
That's why you can't take Aspect Warriors as allies, after all. Neither can you take Wyches, for the same reason. And they are crazy.

Update posted; Hit and fade re-written. Stormglove altered and Warlocks changed.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Farceseer Syranaul on November 9, 2005, 07:55:53 PM
A few corrections may be needed.  Hit and Fade says "All Harlequins wounds on 4+.....blah blah"  It should be "All Harlequins wound on 4+...."  This way the sentence is worded to be the action of wounding. 
     The Stormglove will always wound on roll of 5+.  But hit and fade says the wound on a 4+.  You will want to clarify this.  Stormglove also says "Models hit by a harlequin using a Stormglove may not take a saving throw."  This should be "....May not take a normal saving throw."   
     Now onto the Shadowseer and Warlocks.  The Shadowseer can have a bodyguard of 1-3 Warlocks.  See below.  See where below?  You should say something like See Harlequin Troupe Character options below.  Something like that.  Can a Shadowseer with bodyguards take a jetbike wargear?  If so can the bodyguards also take that wargear?  Also can you take the max bodyguards and put 3 Warlocks in 3 separate units?  I would suggest that the Warlock bodyguards be named  Benathai, and you may have up to 4 having each one give the Shadowseer the powers of the Familiar Group wargear.  Then be rid of the wargear altogether. 
     On a different note.  Has any one tried to capitalise on the Shrieker cannons and bio-ammo?  Like puting a Great Harlequin and Shadowseer on a jetbike with a shrieker cannons, and the bio-ammo.  Join them up with a Harlequin Troupe with a leader with bio-ammo.  Then have some Death Jesters join the same.  Something to that sorts.  I am tring to see it that would be abuse or not.

~Siranaul

P.S. Rasmas, the date on the EO Harlequin revision needs to be updated as well.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 10, 2005, 03:05:46 AM
I will get on those. Mostly typos, it appears.

the s is dropped, and wording on stormglove tightened.
The warlock-entry has been amended.

The date? No, it was written yesterday, 05-11-09, so it is correct. It is not my fault you are reading it backwards. :)

As for the shriekers. Yes, but it never pans out. The characters tend to kill more in hth than with the guns, but with bikes I tend to try to give out shriekers whenever I can. Shriekrs have bio-ammo too, you don't add them later on.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Farceseer Syranaul on November 10, 2005, 03:24:23 AM
But you can equip an IC with a shurikin pistol and give it bio-ammo and toss him on a shrieker jet bike.  Sounds fun, if I would ever get the chance.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 10, 2005, 04:59:29 AM
Of course. It cuts the range down a bit, but on a bike it is not such a big issue. Yes, it is a lot of fun too.
Title: Phase-field
Post by: Farceseer Syranaul on November 10, 2005, 10:01:22 AM
I have a few ideas to bring the Phase-field out of its uselessness.

1) The Phase-field adds 2d6 inches to the movement of the Independent Character.  Cannot be worn with a Flight Belt or be used with a Jet Bike.  Nor may the Independent Character be able to use the Fleet of Foot special rule.

2) Gives the Independent Character a 4+ Invulnerable save.  Idea taken from the Necrons.

3) Can be used as the Warp Spider's Jump Pack.

4) Any combination of the above.

    Since I think that all Eldar should have funny rules, because they all use planning, timing, and finesse.  I would give the 1st idea something like.  "Should the rolled distance place the independent character within 1 inch from or into an enemy squad.  That character catches the enemy by surprise.  In such an occasion an Independent Character equipped with a Phase Shifter may still shoot and charge, and have +2 attacks on the charge instead of the normal +1.
     Any other ideas?

~Siranaul
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 10, 2005, 10:15:25 AM
You are talking about the Phase-field?
I often wondered why GW introduced that at all, when the flightbelt would have done just as well. Personally I would just as soon drop it in favour of the classsic flightbelt, but since it is in CJ 39 it is left in the Revsion as well.
Your first idea seems to make the field worse than it is right now. What would be your motivation for that?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: englishharlie on November 10, 2005, 10:32:28 AM
How is 6+2D6 worse than 3D6??

I thought it'd be nice to have the movement be freely allocated, so use some in movement phase and then some in assault phase. But pop-up(out) attacks from DJs would then become all too common and the cries of cheese would drown out even the harlequin laughter.

You could make it so that on a max roll (max distance must then be moved aswell) that the cover save is increased by 1. The Dj has moved so far that the enemy have trouble pinpointing his exact new location etc etc.

Random thoughts....

English
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Farceseer Syranaul on November 10, 2005, 10:35:48 AM

1) The Phase-field adds 2d6 inches to the movement of the Independent Character.  Cannot be worn with a Flight Belt or be used with a Jet Bike.  Nor may the Independent Character be able to use the Fleet of Foot special rule.

Yes, Phase-field.

The 2d6 inches would be added to the 6 inch move that all footsloggers have naturally.  So instead of a randome 3d6 and be stuck with the 3 ones you rolled.  You would have 6 inches plus the 2 ones you rolled.

~Siranaul
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 10, 2005, 11:17:17 AM
I missed that part. Yeah, that would be better. It would mean a pretty steep increase in cost either way.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on November 10, 2005, 11:50:39 AM
i like the phase field as it is. but if you want to improve it two ideas spring to mind.

1: increase to 4d6. mad but so scary, and means people might take the risk of the poor dice instead of safety of a rocket pack.

price 30points.

2: make it into a veil of darkness type thing. can disappear and deep strike , with scatter and all that. can assault from it. makes it really risky but really effective and really fun. as its just the one guy then not so bad as whole unit, but benefits are worth the risks . if someone wants to port their 210pt solitaire let them.

cost 40 points
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: englishharlie on November 10, 2005, 11:57:53 AM
Well it depends on how well you think the current phase works. Personally I don't like the idea of being able to get 18" whilst having the risk of 3". Ok so the average is greater than 6" but when do you see the average when you need it e.g. Charged 6 CSMs with 7 harlies, 1 dead CSM, 3 dead harlies, CSM swept me up. So no average roll there then!!

So yeah whilst it might seem like a big change it all depends on how useful the phase was in the first place. Personally as it's big risk I don't take it and so making it 6+2D6" would make me consider using it. I think it's worth testing at 15 points at least, I just can't see it breaking anything is all.

As for my ideas they are un-thought through ideas nothing more. They're for consideration and then either modding and using or outright binning, which is where most of my ideas end up before they even leave my head!

\/ Tarrin: Those ideas sound nice but the cost is way too much, not saying the cost is wrong but just too high for my taste. I do think though that the 4D6 could be cheaper, the DS sounds right but again it's almost 2 harlies or a DJ, too expensive.

English
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Farceseer Syranaul on November 10, 2005, 12:02:42 PM
I missed that part. Yeah, that would be better. It would mean a pretty steep increase in cost either way.

     I don't think so.  Unless you allowed the use of Fleet of Foot like the Flight Belt does.  At most it would be 20 points.  15 sounds good to me, as there is still the slight uncertainty with the roll of the dice.  Keep the difficult terrain rules you have with the Flight Belt.  To help balance, and price.
    So a recap of what we have:
1) +2d6 to movement
2) Flight Belt rules for difficult terrain.
3) Can't be worn with a Flight Belt or Jetbike
     Options to be considered
1) Fleet of Foot or no
2) Invulnerable save or no
3) Warp Spider move during assault or no.  (I'm think a NO, but we can discuss it)
4) Surprise Assult or no

i like the phase field as it is. but if you want to improve it two ideas spring to mind.

1: increase to 4d6. mad but so scary, and means people might take the risk of the poor dice instead of safety of a rocket pack.

price 30points.

2: make it into a veil of darkness type thing. can disappear and deep strike , with scatter and all that. can assault from it. makes it really risky but really effective and really fun. as its just the one guy then not so bad as whole unit, but benefits are worth the risks . if someone wants to port their 210pt solitaire let them.

cost 40 points
    I thought about that also, but as the Harlequins are the HtH masters, and you can't assult after deepstriking.  I wouldn't think that the purists out there coughRasmuscough would go for it.  

~Siranaul
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: chrsjxn on November 10, 2005, 02:13:54 PM
     I thought about that also, but as the Harlequins are the HtH masters, and you can't assult after deepstriking.  I wouldn't think that the purists out there would go for it.  coughRasmuscough

Lictors always deploy via deepstrike, and they get to assault afterwards...
So there is a precedent.

Though I personally prefer the 6+2d6 move myself. Especially as that is statistically better than the flight belt, though more unpredictable.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: SeaMonKeigh on November 10, 2005, 03:08:28 PM
I like the veil of Darkness idea.  I think you could incorporate it into the fluffy parts by describing it as an Eldar version of the Ronco Personal Portable Warp Portal TM.  This would allow the IC to zoom around the board.  I think the deep strike and scatter risks (imagine loosing your solitaire because he scattered off the board) would offset the benefit.
You could also have a 'Super Size' version that would allow the IC to transport a squad with him/her.

My other thought is to have it as a wargear item that would save the IC from insta-death attacks.  For example if they are about to be killed by a rampaging Dreadnought's powerfist, the Phase-field kicks in and randomly jumps our hero to safety by 2D6 and a scatter dice from their current location.
Or in a less random manner it "phases him out of real space preventing his untimely demise, but at a cost.  The character takes a wound.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 11, 2005, 03:07:57 AM
I think reintroducing the old 2nd ed Displacer-field is a bad idea, but making the field more usable with 6+2D6 is ok at a pointincrease. As for the no-instakill; this is again lifting out something that is such a major weakness for the Harlequins - most other armies have or will have units/characters you cannot instakill, but the Harlequins cannot have one (save the spiritwalker) and I think this adds to the flair, and forces you to plan a bit more. It is part of the character of the army, as it were. See?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: englishharlie on November 11, 2005, 05:03:03 AM
Totally agree with the instakill thing. It isonly the spiritwalker that is safe from instakill and this is the way it should stay. Personally I don't think the spiritwalker should be in the list but I really don't wanna start that, I'm happy to not select it and be done with it. The idea of having each and every model instakillable is good for me, I like the challenge and am not playing harlies for my win record.

So no anti-instakill whatever, nice idea but no.

As for 6+2D6, I don't see an increase as necessary IMO, ok so it's more reliable than the original but the question is was the original costed correctly?? Personal opinion is no, 15 points was too expensive for the risk and lack of FoF, so IMO 15 points with 6+2D6 and no FoF would be just fine.

English
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Farceseer Syranaul on November 11, 2005, 05:57:24 PM
Let's compare the Flight Belt and the Phase-field.

Flight Belt:
1) Has a 12 inch base move.
2) Ignores terrain.
3) User can Fleet of Foot .
4) Can Deepstrike.
5) Flight Belt Troupes can use the Pack Grenade Launcher.
6) Costs 20 points for Independent Characters.
7) May cause a wound if movement stops in terrain.
8 ) Has a better chance of surviving than others in the above circumstance.

Phase-field:
1) Has a 6+2d6 inch base move.
2) Ignores terrain.
3) Can't use Fleet of Foot.  (Yet)
4) Doesn't have to worry about dangerous terrain tests.
5) Costs 15 points for Independent Characters.
6) Must nominate direction before rolling for movement.  (For now)

     Both have a possible move of 18 inches, but the Flight Belt, with the Fleet of Foot, will most often move farther.  However, you can still shoot when using the Phase-field.  Since the Harlequins are the "assult masters" shooting isn't their thing.  I personally would like to see more firearm options, just to have the options there, but that has already been discussed.  I also really don't like having to nominate what direction I want my guys to go before rolling for movement.  All in all.  Unless you put in something like the ability to always to move, even while stuck in combat.  15 points is right. 
     If we were to make an elite unit based on this.  Would you put some special trick like the Flight Belt Troupe's Pack Greade Launcher?  I was thinking of a poloarm weapon that shot a laser in the shooting phase and gave a +2 to strength in the assult phase.  Maybe call it a Riveblade.  I know.....I know.  What are your ideas?

~ Siranaul
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 12, 2005, 05:16:57 AM
That adds a new unit, which is something the revision is not about though, so it would have to be something separate. However, the field itself can be modified. 6+2D6 without FoF seems ok, as it adds some flexibility for an IC.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: DammageInc on November 23, 2005, 09:50:27 PM
Hrmm, could allways (and in the "spirit" of 4th ed's "simplistic" style) just make it so they can shoot and FoF, would save a lot of headaches for people remembering to FoF and not to FoF differant units, all they would need to remember is "oh, this one can shoot as well". Maybe lighten the points cost a lil too, as it would only then be a 6+d6.

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 24, 2005, 01:58:13 AM
That would set precedent though, as nothing in the game can do that. We are trying to stay away from that.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Farceseer Syranaul on November 24, 2005, 09:23:15 AM
That would set precedent though, as nothing in the game can do that. We are trying to stay away from that.

So.... wounding on a 4+ on the charge isn't setting precedent?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 24, 2005, 11:49:10 AM
No, there are a few "fixed" to-wounds in the game allready, so not really. It does not break any specific rules, as "Shoot AND FoF" would. There is a difference there.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: DammageInc on November 26, 2005, 02:06:20 AM
I meant in regards to the phase field, not for the whole army, but yeah, i catch your meaning.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: DanceOfTheLaughingGod on November 26, 2005, 02:21:48 AM
Greeting Master Avatars & Mimes,

I have read though this thread (most of it) ::) and I'm impressed with the through thought put into the development of a 4e Harle Codex, though unofficial it still seems. 

I see this thread & codex has been in the works for several years now.  I also have heard rumors, also for the past several years, which GW does plan to retool the Eldar Codex and with it revitalize the Harlies.  Seems this may occur in the next year, we can only hope. 

But I was wondering, has the EOL Harlie Codex received and sort of feedback from GW, or GW 'unofficially' discussed or added their input or passing approval of was Rasmus and other have developed here within the EOL Harlie Codex?

***

Additionally, I was also wondering what fluff is behind and the foundation for the NightShade special character?   Can this be found in past CJ's?  It would seem more appropriate to have a special character for the Avatar of the Laughing God, not dissimilar to the Avatar of the Bloody Handed God, in the Harlie case 'Masquerading' as a normal Harlequin until he (she?) makes their present known in a battle.

Salute
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on November 26, 2005, 04:33:19 AM
I have read though this thread (most of it) ::) and I'm impressed with the through thought put into the development of a 4e Harle Codex, though unofficial it still seems. 
    And is likely to remain.

Quote
I see this thread & codex has been in the works for several years now.  I also have heard rumors, also for the past several years, which GW does plan to retool the Eldar Codex and with it revitalize the Harlies.  Seems this may occur in the next year, we can only hope. 
  The Eldar is getting a 4th ed codex next year, by most accounts, byt the Harlequins? No, not on the horizon as of yet.

Quote
But I was wondering, has the EOL Harlie Codex received and sort of feedback from GW, or GW 'unofficially' discussed or added their input or passing approval of was Rasmus and other have developed here within the EOL Harlie Codex?
   No, none of the letters or mails have gotten any response at all. They are aware of its existence, and some may even have read it (I have sent it to enough people, to be sure, at some personal expense I might add) but have chosen not to comment on it at all.

Quote
Additionally, I was also wondering what fluff is behind and the foundation for the NightShade special character?   Can this be found in past CJ's?  It would seem more appropriate to have a special character for the Avatar of the Laughing God, not dissimilar to the Avatar of the Bloody Handed God, in the Harlie case 'Masquerading' as a normal Harlequin until he (she?) makes their present known in a battle.
   There was just a drive to make a special character, and most suggestions centered around super-combat-characters and the NIghtshade was jsut a counterpoint to it, to show that a Harlequin sc didn't have to be "the chosen Solitaire" or such. I wanted to make a grand strategist, but I didn't have a model for it.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: InfinityCircuit on January 15, 2006, 06:29:23 PM
Hit & Fade has been fixed.  I'm very proud/impressed with whoever came up with this idea.  By the way there is a typo in the rules there (it should say "armed with a Harlequin's Kiss" not "armied...").

EDIT: Upon further playtesting and number crunching I believe it is actually too much to work on the charge as well.  It still seems to inordinately favor the Power Weapon over the Harlequins' special weapon.  However, I don't think it should be cut.  My tentative idea is to make it only work on turns after the Harlequins have been charged--this would encourage a whole new slew of tactics.  The issue is that such a change would make the name Hit and Fade a joke, along with most of the fluff.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on January 16, 2006, 02:58:27 AM
I will fix the typo, and I have found the currnet rule to work really well as well. People go "ouch! that is terribly powerful!" and then they open up with the bolters and see 35-point models mowed down like so much gretchin...

edit: fixed and uploaded. Entered a slight clarification on Phase-fields as well.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: DammageInc on February 10, 2006, 01:10:49 AM
Will work it into the harley armybuilder file i am working on, been on a bit of a hiatus so far as w40k is concerned, working in sales over cristmas/new years took its toll on my free time ;(
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on February 10, 2006, 02:35:59 AM
We had an older one, but I think it needs a major overhaul. Good luck and get back to us when you're done.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on March 10, 2006, 07:26:23 PM
The reading of hit and fade does not mention the charge rasmus.


When they charge all harlequins for the first round of combat wound on no.....
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on March 11, 2006, 06:50:52 AM
Wow. It fell out in editing. Will correct it. Thanks for spotting it.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: celestial.dragon on April 10, 2006, 04:22:47 AM
Hello.

I am attempting to build an army list to hopefully play test this Saturday, but I have a few questions first. Forgive me if they have already been answered in the past 44 pages in this tread.


1) Would combining eldar kins really be that bad?

I'd imagine eldar who would follow the harlequins and their cause would probably be willing to put their past grudges aside for the harlequin's goals, much like the harlequins themselves. I'd personally enjoy having both kins alongside my harlequin forces if it wouldn't mess up your testing.

2) Is the army builder file posted still current with the updated rules?

(These next two are more fluff type questions.)

3) Why are eldar allies looked down upon, and why would an eldar look down on harlequins as foolhardy?

From the fluff I've read the harlequins are looked at with great respect even from the Dark Eldar. I'd imagine that many of the ones who choose to follow the harlequins might have thoughts or hopes of trying to help save their race.

4) Would the Eldar allies be welcomed by the troupe and allowed among them? Or would they be kept separate and not communicated with?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on April 10, 2006, 06:08:55 AM
1. Well, they have been mortal enemies for a long time, and the Harlequin reunification-plans are not developed enough to combine or reconsile them yet. Sooner or later they will, but not right now.

2. If the one is the first post is not updated then no, I don't think so.

3. What makes you think they are looked down upon?

4. They would be kept separate, as they do not understand, and don't have the training. Of course you would communicate with them (or battle for them would be swift and fatal) but they would be kept as their own unit, as they just don't understand the Harlequin plan. Yet. :)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: celestial.dragon on April 10, 2006, 06:30:04 AM
1) I see. Maybe after play testing a bit I'll throw in a mixed combination for my own fun games, but I'll be sure to play them properly.

3) In your fluff it says "Most other eldar look down upon the warriors who seek to join the Harlequins in battle, since the Harlequins are so unpredictable and often seen as foolhardy.". I guess I misunderstood.

4) I find that a sad way to live. Being exiled and kept alone by the one's you gave up everything to protect.
:-\
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on April 10, 2006, 01:05:58 PM
The Harlequins are not looked down upon, but they are ... odd to the eyes of other Eldar, and anyone wanting to join them will be treated sort of people uprooting themself and wanting to join... The amish, or something, right out of the blue.

As for being separated "All their wars are merry, all their songs are sad" perfectly illustrates the point, I think.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Starliner on April 12, 2006, 06:34:01 PM
hey, i've been playing alot of games with harlequins (but only with a limited army list, i couldn't get to the pdf file of the EO revision, but when i did, i found alot of holes in it (they referred to other places) so i wanted to know if it would be wrong to make a copy of it all, putting all the stuff together and then maybe putting it on this forum (most likely somewher else on the actual forum though) and one other note , what happened to the mimes? i know they are ten points now, but when i got all the journals and stuff it had them listed at twenty five, so im unsure of all their stats, along with the Mimics, so i was wondering if i could get that part down, other than that i find that the eldar are an exceptional army and they do well if you can shove em into close combat quick enough (before they shoot you)
i was gonna put notes here but i have to leave ( will leave notes on gameplay another time)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: celestial.dragon on April 12, 2006, 06:45:16 PM
Hey Starliner.

I think that this would not be allowed on the site, since the Citadel Journals containing the harlequin rules are copyrighted. I'm guessing that this is why Rasmus did not adding anything from them on his pdf. He only added updates to the rules and his/40konline's own ideas for the rules.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Farceseer Syranaul on April 12, 2006, 07:12:51 PM
Rasmas sees the mimes as harlequins in training.  Something I am not keen on myself, but he has creative licensing.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on April 13, 2006, 03:15:55 AM
1. No, a complete copy, incorporating the CJ 39-44 lists would be a major breach of copyright, and will not happen here. Sorry.
2. The mimes in the revision are not my idea, but in the earliest release of the current CJ-article, released on the web back in 98. I just recreated them for CJ 44, which the editor messed up, and I tried setting it right for CJ 50, but it didn't work out either, but the Revision-version is the one closest to the GW-version released back in 98.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Starliner on April 13, 2006, 12:11:49 PM
lol, ok, that complicates things, but, how bout this, can someone give me a link to a copy of the C.J. so i can have a review on the mimes , one thing though, it cant be on the E.O. site (it's blocked here) so i cant get to it, it's one reason it took me forever to get a copy in the first place.
and no, i dont have a compy of my own, so i cant just go get it at home XD but yeah, anyways, on other news, ill be (hopefully) playtesting against blood angels (i think) so yeah, if i do ill give a report on how that goes..
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: celestial.dragon on April 16, 2006, 01:02:51 AM
I have just gotten back from my local store, and I thought I'd share my thoughts on this list.

After reading the EO rules, and reading a number of posts on this site about them being too unbalanced I decided to not use any of the upgraded rules or equipment from the list. Instead I chose to only use the rearranged army roster, and the new unit choices (rangers, Guardians, and a looted Leman Russ). I felt that for me the harlequins were already fairly balanced, but lacked any real kind of support fire, or any successful way to take down tanks/vehicles. Because of this I felt that taking allies would be perfectly fair and fun.

I enjoyed the battle, but adding these units seems to have had the strange affect of turning my harlequin army into a shooty army. I was extremely surprised when I defeated his Necron army without having to assault him in close combat.

Although I must point out that this was probably his 5 or 6 game of 40k. Considering that he lumped all 1750 points of his Necron army into one medium sized area of difficult terrain (probably for the cover save) this game might not be an accurate example to judge my army by. His units were literally shoulder to shoulder, and if my Leman Russ Demolisher was able to get in range with it's demolisher he would have fazed out that very turn.

Here is the list I used:

HQ:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unit Name                       

Shadowseer (HQ)                 
                               Independent Character; Psychic Powers:
                               Misdirection, Veil of Tears; In a Night Fight,
                               the Seer & unit can only be seen at half the
                               normal range; Harlequin's Kiss (x1); Shuriken
                               Pistol (x1)
  Plasma Grenades             
  Powerblades                 
  Domino Field                 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Elites:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unit Name                       

Rangers (Troops)               
                               Infiltrate if allowed; Roll an extra dice in
                               difficult terrain; Cameleoline cloaks; Shuriken
                               Pistol; Ranger Long Rifle

Guardian Defender Squad (Troops) 
                               Shuriken Catapult
  Grav Platform & Crew         
                               Move and fire; Shuriken Catapult (x2); Bright
                               Lance (x1)
Solitaire (Elites)             
                               Independent Character; never joins a unit;
                               Spiritless; Blitz Attack; Harlequin's Kiss (x1);
                               Shuriken Pistol (x1)
  Plasma Grenades             
  Powerblades                 
  Domino Field             
  Phase Field                 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Troops:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Harlequin Troupe (Troops)       
                               Plasma P. & CCW (x2); Shuriken P. & CCW (x2);
                               Shuriken P. & Kiss (x1); Shuriken P. & Power
                               Weapon (x1); Haywire Grenades; Plasma Grenades

Harlequin Troupe (Troops)       
                               Plasma P. & CCW (x2); Shuriken P. & CCW (x2);
                               Shuriken P. & Kiss (x1); Shuriken P. & Power
                               Weapon (x1); Haywire Grenades; Plasma Grenades

Mime Troupe (Troops)   
                               Superb Infiltrators; Shuriken P. & CCW (x8);
                               Shuriken P. & Kiss (x1); Shuriken P. & Power
                               Weapon (x1); Plasma Grenades
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fast Attack:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Venom (Heavy Support)           
                               Fast; Skimmer; Open-Topped; Carries 6 Harlequins
                               plus one Independent Character; Twin Shuriken
                               Catapults

Venom (Heavy Support)           
                               Fast; Skimmer; Open-Topped; Carries 6 Harlequins
                               plus one Independent Character; Twin Shuriken
                               Catapults
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Heavy Support:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wraithlord (Heavy Support)     
                               Implacable Advance; Fearless; Holo-Suit; Mask of
                               Fear; Flamer (x2); Star Cannon

Death Jester (Elites)           
                               Independent Characters;
  Powerblades                 
Death Jester #1               
                               Bright Lance
    Powerblades     
           
  Death Jester #2               
                               Missile Launcher
    Powerblades               

Leman Russ Demolisher (Heavy)   
                               Battle Cannon; Hull Lascannon; Heavy Bolter
                               Sponsons
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I know that this does not help the EO project, since I did not use it properly. However it was a fun game.


Edit:

I just realized that I did not even use the Mimes I listed.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on April 16, 2006, 12:13:43 PM
lol, ok, that complicates things, but, how bout this, can someone give me a link to a copy of the C.J. so i can have a review on the mimes , one thing though, it cant be on the E.O. site (it's blocked here) so i cant get to it, it's one reason it took me forever to get a copy in the first place.
  Please read the stickied posts.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on May 3, 2006, 06:25:45 AM
So Guys, Any joy with the play testing of the two guns rule i suggested.

i haven't played with it much as my harlies have been 8500 miles away from me, but a couple of the guys have played with it and found it to be rather good. Basically the extra gun allows CCW in combat and twin linking, much as seraphim have it and it gives the double gun figures a role in the army.


ayone else done this.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Hybrid 9 on May 13, 2006, 05:06:57 AM
I don't know if this already has been asked and been debated, but why is it impossible to take walkers as looted vehicles?

I would personnaly love to take either an eldar warwalker or an imperial sentinel. I think they would fit in nicely. Though I would understand why they could not be upgraded with a holofield. I don't know too many other walkers, I believe there is one of the orks. And I don't know if crisissuits are accounted for as a walker.

Please Rasmus add some walkers... pretty please :D
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 13, 2006, 05:12:13 AM
I don't think there is any specific reason, only that they are smaller, and harder to convert for the Harlequins, I suppose. The upside of this fluff is also that the adding of Warwalkers would unbalance the firepower of the list. It would upset the lack of firepower in the list overall.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Farceseer Syranaul on May 13, 2006, 11:47:08 AM
If you gave the war walkers the same rule that you can only take one vehicle and not squadrons.  I don't see the harm of allowing one war walker.

A War Walker would upset the balance, but a Land Raider wouldn't?  Okay, sure. ::)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Hybrid 9 on May 13, 2006, 01:33:14 PM
well, that was my point. Just one, so not a squadron and not a walker and a tank or something like that

I mean the vyper is in the list of lootables and that thing can dish out some firepower. So why not have a sentinel with a multilaser instead.
These are even more vulnerable as they:
a) don't get the glancing protection, which skimmer get after +6" moves
b) they cannot install a holofield on it
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Arven on June 21, 2006, 06:49:44 AM
Hi Rasmus. I have read your Codex pfd, and it's really amazing! I'm very impressed. It's professionally layed out and it seems pretty well balanced.

I do have some constructive comments though. (I hope this means that this will not be considered as digging.)

Here are my thoughts, starting from the top...
On using Harlequins in other armies, is it appropriate that an Eldar player can take, say just a Great Harlequin in his/her army, with no other Harlequins? This could be abused. Imagine an Eldar player taking his already cheesy list containing an Avatar and 3 WL and then takes a Great Harlequin, Shadowseer and a Solitaire as Elites!

I like the Flip belts revision. The first paragraph is a perfect transition into 4th Ed, and the Invulnerable save was sorely needed (clever how the invulnerable is justified by the flip-bets and not the holo-field so that Spiritwalkers don't benefit). The second paragraph, though... 4" is terribly far for. Considering that a Harlequin 4" away from an ally in base-to-base is really 5" away from the enemy model, it seems almost silly that the Harlequin, as acrobatic as he may be, can jump that far and strike will full efficiency. I tried a combat with this as 3" instead and it seemed more appropriate, imo.

Acrobatic dismount is great, Hit & Fade is a bit powerful at first glance, but they needed that little combat push, imo.

In the Mime Disruption table, for results 2 & 3, you say that Fearless units are unaffected. In 4th edition, Fearless units still need to take Target Priority tests, so it would be justifiable to allow these results to affect Fearless units. I see that the table is based on the Alaitoc Pathfinder table, and you may want to keep parallels, but that table will be gone with the 4th edition Eldar Codex, so I'm sure that a little revision on your part here would be ok.

The Jetbike changes are good too, but do the Familiars need to be Twin-linked? Why not make them BS4 instead for simplicity, or increase the number of shots they have? Although I have no idea what Benathi look like, so I am not the best judge for this.

In terms of moving with the Phase Field, you explain about difficult and impassible terrain, but not about combats or enemy units. And what happened to Riveblades? Why did you decide to rename it Stormglove? Also the Tanglefoot grenades revision is perfect.

The Masques are cool... I can't remember where I first saw them though. I think that the Masque of the Last Laugh is a little weak for all those points. I would suggest 20-25 pts. Also maybe the Masque of the Laughing God would have an effect on Daemon Instability, such as reducing their Ld during such tests, when within 12" of the Great Harlequin (as always)?

The Psychic powers are cool, although for the Hunt, the wording at the end might be better. I don't think 40k deals with psychology as such. Maybe "This power has no effect on vehicles, or units immune to pinning (such as Fearless units), or deemed to automatically pass such tests." I think that better distinguishes between effects to Fearless and Stubborn units.

That's all I have for now, Rasmus, as I don't have the time to write it all in one go, but I have more comments on the army list.

EDIT:
The following topic may be of interest too: http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=117130.msg1393863
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Tamashii on July 19, 2006, 01:42:30 AM
I like what you have done, some of it is similar to what I've playtested before, In the version I've done Harlequins where more like DE Witches Cult, sense the Harlequins recruit from both Eldar and Dark Eldar with Access to the technology of both and with harlequin's gear, having the +2 cover save from range attacks for the holofield and in HtH a 4+ Inv dodge, they also had Dance routines that a Troupe leader would perchuses giving them similar abilities as the drug injectors. And could take a raider transport making a troupe a FA choice.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Joker_Of_Hearts on July 21, 2006, 08:32:50 PM
Alright!  Well, I sort of skipped over all alot of the 45 pages, but i am going to post my feedback.  So here we go! ::)

  Alright, First off I love the codex.  It is uber.  I am going to use this when the new eldar codex comes because I love my harlequins that I want them to stay their own army and not some allys to eldar.  But here are my 2 cents.

1. Frankly the Masque where the harlequins can teleport.  i loved this one.  I beat my friend on turn two.  Outright... he had nothing left.  So all my friends have deemed harlequins the cheapest army and it took me awhile to convince them that they are not cheep.  So i really wasn't sure what the argument was against that, I am just throwing that out there.  ;D.

2. I don't understand why people would ever use the Phase-Field.  I just don't see its use.  What I always do, and its only 5 points extra, is use the flightbelt.  It gaurentees the movement of 12 inches automatically during the movement phase.  Then on top of that you can roll  your fleet of foot.  There is no rule stating against it so it is legal.   So I just don't see a point to a phase-field when you are locked into moveing 3d6 which could end up less than 5 inches, when you can use the flightbelt to move atleast 12.

3.  The +5 invuln save?  I semi agree, but I also dissagree lol.  Its our only save, so everyone has to make that 5+ save.  Its awefull.  I miss the old 4+ save.  But I agree because a whole army of CC deamons getting 50/50 chance to live ANY attack is alittle unfair.  Again I was just throwing this out.  ::)

4.  Oh, i love this.  Mime army list = Anti Tau list.  You have Nightshade, two mastermimes and then three mime troupes with some deathjesters = 1000 pts of a whole harlequin army infiltrating.  I love it.  Thanks for that.  I was just stating this if anyone hasn't noticed it before.  Lots of fun.

5.  What the heck is with the fellblade?  No harlequin player in their right mind would put fellblades in their army.  That basically means a harlequin that attacks last.... Don't think so.  We don't last that long lol.

6.  The looted vehicle test?  You have to roll it everyturn?  So basically the vehicle doesn't move, or moves 2d6 forward...  I just don't understand that at all...

I can't think of much more to say, but I love this army list.  I find this list the most fun to play of any army out there.  I was just posting about somethings that are on my mind and also a thanks! I love it!  Its a great army to play and I try to get as many harlequin players out there to try it.  I also advertise harlequins because they are so much fun.  We are a dying race and there are few of us out there.  Again, thanks.

-Joker_Of_Hearts
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Farceseer Syranaul on August 30, 2006, 12:49:45 AM
With the emergence of the Harlequins in the new Eldar codex.  Will the 40KO Harlequin revision be redone to take into account of the new rules and gear?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Wuestenfux on August 30, 2006, 01:49:45 AM
Quote
Eldar Codex: Harlequins: Elite choice. They may be WS5 BS3 S3 T3 W1 A2 I6 Ld9 Sv 5++ and 18 pts in units 5-10 (may gain Furious Charge USR). Harlequins still have flip belts which allow them to ignore difficult terrain tests. They may choose to upgrade CC weapons to the Harlequin Kiss at +4pts per model (rending CC weapon). They can upgrade one Squad member to a Shadow seer, Shadow seer will have “Veil of Tears” Physic power (use night fight rules to see the unit he is with)and he gives them Hit and Run USR, he can take Hallucinogen(Plasma) grenades and allows the squad that he’s with to gain them also. Upgrade one member to a Troupe Master (Power Blades and +1A +1LD). Upgrade one member to a Death Jester at +10pts, The Death Jester is Equiped with Shreiker Cannon (same stats as Shuriken Cannon and gains pinning).
Wave Serpents cannot transport Harlequins.
As can be seen, Harlequin troupes in the new Eldar Codex will be a bit different from the 40KO revision. Maybe a new 40KO revision should take this into account.

I'm inclined to include a Harlequin troupe into my BT army like this:
5 Harlequins w/ kiss (x5)
Shadow Seer
transported in a Falcon.
With Shadow Seer's power VoT, the Falcon can safely shoot during the first few turns before the Harlequins are deployed to take on their target.

The 'hit and run' rule is a bit weird for a unit that usually advances 2D6, not 3D6.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Arven on August 31, 2006, 11:34:04 AM
Hmm, the quoted official rules seem a little disappointing, especially the change to the Kisses, and the loss of grenades like Tanglefoot, etc.

The 'hit and run' rule is a bit weird for a unit that usually advances 2D6, not 3D6.

Maybe Flip Belts will allow them to fall back 3D6, they did in the CJ rules didn't they?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Farceseer Syranaul on August 31, 2006, 01:38:35 PM
Hit and run gives the unit the ability to fall back 3d6" when they use the rule.  The flip belt did give them the 3d6" fall back anyway.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Wuestenfux on August 31, 2006, 02:14:19 PM
Falling back 3d6 is awesome.
But the Harlequins dodge save, 5++, is a bit weak; should be same as that of the Wyches!
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Farceseer Syranaul on August 31, 2006, 08:10:12 PM
They have the 4+ cover save, and only the EOonline codex gives them a save in close combat.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Wuestenfux on September 1, 2006, 08:18:20 AM
The point is that Eldar player might consider Harlequins if they would benefit from a 4++ dodge save.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on September 1, 2006, 08:42:28 AM
I'm going to have a lot of input on this list once we finally know how Harlequins for 4th ed turns out.

Rumours have it the shadowseer will go from being one of the most potent psykers in the entire game, and fluff, to being a squad upgrade.

My solution to this will be to have Shadow Seers range from champion to Mighty Hero, 4 individual levels of skill. It has to be that way.

We have to streamline the concept more to the 4th ed "vision" of Harlies, with what we expect them to be, along with how GW has made them.

It will be fun :) (and a lot of work)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Wuestenfux on September 1, 2006, 02:57:02 PM
I concur. It will be a lot of playtesting, thinking, work and fun to make a Harlequin squad a useful integral component of a 4th Eldar army.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Dinendal on September 1, 2006, 03:05:23 PM
Something you've missed...

Harlies won't be able to be transported in falcon/serpent... and at the moment there is no venom in the codex... according to what I saw in the thread and what was reported...

We so much need more informations... but it looks like people skip the harly part each time they check the codex...

Dinendal
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Wuestenfux on September 2, 2006, 02:34:43 AM
According to Tamashii, Serpents cannot transport Harlies.
I guessed that Falcons can transport Harlequins.
As Harlies cannot deepstrike, there are two other options: Scout or infiltrate ability.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Roy on September 4, 2006, 04:49:36 AM
Why, oh WHY didn't they include the Venom?

Oh well, we can :)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Wuestenfux on September 9, 2006, 02:28:06 AM
The rumors say that in the new Codex:Eldar, Harlequins will be 0-1 unit and will get a 5++ cover save plus a 5++ dodge save. This will make them a less useful option in an Eldar army. I'm a bit disappointed.  :-[
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Wargamer on November 21, 2006, 12:18:41 PM
Any chance we can get these links fixed!? :o
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Vuren on February 27, 2007, 03:33:58 AM
Any chance we can get these links fixed!? :o


seconded!
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on April 15, 2007, 06:16:10 AM
I will see what I can get going on getting hte link working again.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 13, 2007, 01:05:12 PM
Ok, the files are now rehosted. They should work ok now.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Whitehat51 on February 22, 2008, 12:20:06 AM
What is a heavy close combat weapon?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on February 22, 2008, 04:18:27 AM
It is listed under the wargear. Read it.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Whitehat51 on February 23, 2008, 02:27:58 PM
It is listed under the wargear. Read it.
I don't see it.  It just says a Fell Blade counts as a heavy close combat weapon.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Killersquid on February 23, 2008, 08:10:22 PM
It is listed under the wargear. Read it.
I don't see it.  It just says a Fell Blade counts as a heavy close combat weapon.

Check out the 4th Edition rulebook, under the section about close combat weapons. It's there.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Whitehat51 on February 24, 2008, 06:48:36 PM
Does ANYONE else have Heavy Close Combat weapons?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Killersquid on February 24, 2008, 07:12:31 PM
Does ANYONE else have Heavy Close Combat weapons?

After the latest Ork Codex, no.

But the rules are in the 4th Edition Rulebook.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Whitehat51 on February 24, 2008, 07:33:16 PM
Ah.  That's the ones that add to your strength, right?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Heretek on February 24, 2008, 07:46:46 PM
No, Whitehat. But perhaps if you read the rulebook like Rasmus and Squid suggested, you'd know.

I suggest starting with page 46.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Farceseer Syranaul on June 10, 2008, 12:49:23 AM
When the new rulebook comes out.  Does anyone want to work on refurbish the EO Harlequin list?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on June 10, 2008, 01:57:48 AM
I am guessing once I get the new book and revise what changes have been made to rules. However, as for retesting it I will have to leave it to other. My Harlequins are out on loan at the moment.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: earthpiggy on June 24, 2008, 06:21:40 PM
Sorry if this is an obvious question, but the Harlequin Wraithlord listing currently doesn't have any mention of Wraithsight. Does it still suffer from Wraithsight, or does something in the fluff make it exempt from this?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on June 25, 2008, 02:12:41 AM
When the entry was made the Wraithlords did not suffer Wraithsight, only Wraithguards did. Since they did not there was never a reason for the Harlequin variant to suffer it either.
This may be modified in the 5th ed update.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on August 16, 2008, 12:09:32 PM
I am considering revising this for 5th ed, but doing the new layout without some serious violation of copyright is going to be very very tricky.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: IGBunker (-Hela - Finnail-) on September 12, 2008, 10:58:19 PM
good to here that you are doing a 5th ED one, cant wait for it. im thinking of playing harlequins cause they are so damn cool ;D
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on December 26, 2008, 05:46:38 PM
I got hold of another copy of 5th ed (my last one was misplaced somewhere) so I will get on making a 5th ed rendition of these rules when I get the time, if there is still interest in it.
Also, there was a Pirate-list made a while back - I wonder if I should go through the effort of adopting it to 5th ed as well or just leave it? Harlequins and Squats are first up in either case.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Wuestenfux on December 29, 2008, 02:04:17 PM
Well, 5th ed updates would be welcome.  ;D
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on December 29, 2008, 02:15:15 PM
I have been looking into this. There are basically two paths to go:

1. Adapt the current list to 5th ed, disregarding the Codex Eldar entry completely
or
2. Adapt the codex to be an expanded entry from the Codex.

Both have advantages, but it is a LOT of work regardless of pick.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Khain Mor (/kharandhil) on January 17, 2009, 08:27:52 AM
I have been looking into this. There are basically two paths to go:

1. Adapt the current list to 5th ed, disregarding the Codex Eldar entry completely
or
2. Adapt the codex to be an expanded entry from the Codex.

Both have advantages, but it is a LOT of work regardless of pick.

I would say that second is a bit better.

The flip belt and dance of death are a bit better in the eldar codex.
A invuln 5+ save is better than 4+ cover save.
You simply can't always use your cover face.

The dance of death rules are pretty good, so no reason to be mad about those.

The 2 main things that concern me are the point costs and weapons.

I wouldn't change too much or add too many units...

GW didn't pul out those new rules out of their butts, they've been tested and they are somewhat reliable. Ignoring these new rules would be a terrible waste.

btw are you planning on doing an update any time soon? My harly force is getting nicely big, up to around 1700 pts lol (with the old rules)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on January 17, 2009, 05:58:00 PM
Yeah, I should be able to start crunching some numbers in the coming week or so. It will be a while longer after that that it starts to make sense, but now that the Squat-list is just tuning, and not refitting at every revision, I should have more time.

Edit: What I can tell you right now is that the Harlequins have been hit hard with a nerfing-bat, as the profile in the Eldar codex and the options they have been given (and the dropping of several special rules for "simplicity's sake") is a LOT weaker than they were in CJ 39, let alone in RT. So far I have worked out the points for some units, and they are a LOT cheaper than the CJ-list was. I don't want to hype them back up either, but stick to that profile as a base, so that it can be somewhat more accepted than the "omg! 10 10 10 10 10 10!"-statlines that I have seen proposed for some of these units. I have so far just gone through some basics, and the task is made a LOT harder, as a LOT of it has to be cut and reworded not to breach IP. My copy, so far, is an extrapolated copy of the Eldar Codex, breaking apart that entry to make the basis of an armylist.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on January 19, 2009, 01:38:30 PM
Ok, posted a premilinary math for 5h Ed. Copyright-note at end.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Zemanova on January 20, 2009, 07:34:25 AM
OK, posted a preliminary math for 5h Ed. Copyright-note at end.

I've had a look at ur 5th Ed revising and compile a few comments.

Most of ur characters have an I of 7 which is equivalent to that of  Phoenix lord. This seems a little to high. I would recommend u remove one point of initiative & tag it on to BS instead.

The cost of the shuriken cannon on the venom seems a little steep & the fusion gun one the bikes a little cheap. I'd recommend making all of these 10 points.

I think your Jetbikes are to cheap. I had mine costed at 35 when they only had one hand weapon. With 2 I think they are worth closer to 50 (similar to warlock bikers anyway).

Death Jesters are spot on.

Spirit Lord too.

I think the venom could be upped to BS 4 & still justify a price cut to 35Pt's (ala Rhinos & Orc Trucks) I think u could probably remove any references to BS 3 from a Quin list.

Mockingbird also has BS 3 - I'd up it to 4 for an extra 10 Pt's (BS 3 is for guardians).

Are the mimes really meant to be without holo-suits or flip belts?


All in all - good work
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on January 20, 2009, 07:47:02 AM
The cost of the shuriken cannon on the venom seems a little steep & the fusion gun one the bikes a little cheap. I'd recommend making all of these 10 points.
  This was what was the cost in 4th ed. As none of stuff is tested I am sure those can be adjusted.

Quote
I think your Jetbikes are to cheap. I had mine costed at 35 when they only had one hand weapon. With 2 I think they are worth closer to 50 (similar to warlock bikers anyway).
  Maths are simple that way. Craftworlder Bike = guardian + bike. Remove cost of guardian to get he pure bike, add a Harlequin and you get the base cost of a Harlequin jetbike. Then this gets tested, and we can see how well that holds up. What would you base it on that the cost is too low?


Quote
I think the venom could be upped to BS 4 & still justify a price cut to 35Pt's (ala Rhinos & Orc Trucks) I think u could probably remove any references to BS 3 from a Quin list.

Mockingbird also has BS 3 - I'd up it to 4 for an extra 10 Pt's (BS 3 is for guardians).
   Fair enough, seems they learned how to shoot, simply.

Quote
Are the mimes really meant to be without holo-suits or flip belts?
Yes indeed.

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Zemanova on January 20, 2009, 09:13:29 AM
Quote
I think your Jetbikes are to cheap. I had mine costed at 35 when they only had one hand weapon. With 2 I think they are worth closer to 50 (similar to warlock bikers anyway).
  Maths are simple that way. Craftworlder Bike = guardian + bike. Remove cost of guardian to get he pure bike, add a Harlequin and you get the base cost of a Harlequin jetbike. Then this gets tested, and we can see how well that holds up. What would you base it on that the cost is too low?

A guardian bike costs 14 but a warlock bike cost 20 & Autarch bike costs 30.

As a rule of thumb the cost of the bike seems to increase with the potency of the rider.

Also - If u give 5 Quins, bikes, kisses & a troupe leader & do the Math hammer in both offence and defence then absolutely dump on Shining Spears - which should then suggest that they cost more than said Spears for balance.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: cythron on January 20, 2009, 08:25:02 PM
Not a bad 5th ed revision that  :) I have a few questions though....
1), Will you be including the Benathai again? Little touches like these guys give the masque a bit of flavour (plus I've still got my models from CJ 17 - it'd be a shame for them to go to waste!)
2), As we don't have much in the way of ranged firepower, will you be giving the Spiritwalker the option to carry a heavy weapon too? The downside of this is that he'd become a static fire platform and wouldn't benefit from wraithsight from the Shadowseer, unless you gave the SS the option to become a spiritseer too.
3) While I'm on the subject of heavy weapons, how about giving the Mockingbird the option to carry a twin-linked weapon turret like the Wave Serpent? Or even create a similar new vehicle to fill this role and put it in the Heavy Support section?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on January 20, 2009, 11:22:09 PM
1. Yes
2. My bad - it does, the list is just incomplete due to copyrightissues.
3. The Mockingbird is rare in that it fits perfectly into the fluff and the list. It is subtle in fluff and excellent in execution. I doubt I could ever cobble together anything half its brilliance. Sad VDR are out the window or you could try yourself. In the end though - the Harlequins do not rely on heavy weapons, so adding more of them makes very little sense. It is not what they are about.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Khain Mor (/kharandhil) on January 21, 2009, 08:01:10 AM
the Harlequins do not rely on heavy weapons, so adding more of them makes very little sense. It is not what they are about.

There's no reason why harlequins should remain the samen, I find their fluff incomplete so far.

LIke the black library, it's a craftworld, if harlequins have such a thing as a craftworld, why wouldn't they have some falcons, or something similar to that. I still do understand your point, harlies are not about waging war on a big scale...

Like harlies back in the 4th were playable, you could have done apoc with them. In the game it was possible, according to their fluff it wasn't.
Though I know you'll disagree with me on this I do think that harlies will ask somekind of help in bigger battles...

Maybe you can just come up with a harlequin troupe datasheet, with great harlequin, solitaires, mimes, etc... These would just be a part of an apoc eldar army. That's actually what my plan is, but the datasheet will be available for both eldar and dark eldar, as the old fluff did say that harlies visit commoragh...
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on January 21, 2009, 08:04:53 AM
the Harlequins do not rely on heavy weapons, so adding more of them makes very little sense. It is not what they are about.

There's no reason why harlequins should remain the samen, I find their fluff incomplete so far.
  That is as you may think, but that is not what this project is about. This is just about making the original RT-list of the Harlequin playable in the current edition, in one form or another (through 2nd ed codex, CJ-list and now C:E-listing). If you want something else, feel free to make it, but it is not what this thread is about, sorry.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Zemanova on January 21, 2009, 12:11:31 PM
Will you be including the Benathai again? Little touches like these guys give the masque a bit of flavour

What were the Benathai??
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: cythron on January 21, 2009, 03:49:38 PM
Will you be including the Benathai again? Little touches like these guys give the masque a bit of flavour

What were the Benathai??
When the Harlequin update appeared in Citadel Journal 17, they included a familiar group for the Shadowseer, small creatures called the Benathai that added to his powers and defended him. If you check out the EO 3rd ed Harlequin Revision Rasmus has included them in it and gives a bit of a description of their powers etc :)


3. The Mockingbird is rare in that it fits perfectly into the fluff and the list. It is subtle in fluff and excellent in execution. I doubt I could ever cobble together anything half its brilliance. Sad VDR are out the window or you could try yourself. In the end though - the Harlequins do not rely on heavy weapons, so adding more of them makes very little sense. It is not what they are about.
I haven't got the 5th ed rulebook yet, but I'm led to believe that Vibro-cannons aren't so good anymore...
Vibro's used to be the weapon of choice but getting the arrival of 5th Ed and -3 to any rolls on the vehicle damage chart pretty much killed them off in most lists.
I never made a Mockingbird for my 4th ed Harly list, so I don't know how they fared in battle sadly..





Serial-posting is bad. Use the modify-button to add contents to an existing post rather than post another in response to yourself.
Posts cleaned.
Have a nice day
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on January 22, 2009, 02:21:38 AM
What were the Benathai??
The benathai are the symbols of the last Eldar Deity to die during the Fall, the Heavenly eagle which sacrificed itself to allow teh Laughing god to escape. In the list they are familiars to the Shadowseer. If you read the revision for 4th ed they are in there.

I haven't got the 5th ed rulebook yet, but I'm led to believe that Vibro-cannons aren't so good anymore...
They are actually quite decent, especially against big units of infantry, or heavy tanks. I have had great luck with mine, and it serves the purpose for which it was designed very well. It is not a falcon, and when people use it as such it tends to fail miserably, but when used for what it is then it works like a treat.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Zemanova on January 22, 2009, 12:17:27 PM
What were the Benathai??
The benathai are the symbols of the last Eldar Deity to die during the Fall, the Heavenly eagle which sacrificed itself to allow teh Laughing god to escape. In the list they are familiars to the Shadowseer. If you read the revision for 4th ed they are in there.

Ok I've had a look & it has to be said I'm not sure I like them as I can see Chaos having familiars but not Eldar.

Also, can u expand on "symbols of the last Eldar Deity to die during the Fall" i.e. where did this come from & how did it arise?

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on January 22, 2009, 12:32:23 PM
I will put a blurb in the 5th ed list when I work out the math.

Edit: Benathai are in, Masques are back, and I am working on some fluff. Should be up tomorrow if not my day goes wrong.

Edit: 1.1 is up, including some basic background, Masques, Benathai, and the lost weapon-options of the Solitaire.
THe Masques, if you didn't know, were part of GW playtest-codex before the #39-list, and I have had to tweak them a bit as some of the mechanics they used to modify are now gone. They have also been significantly toned down.
Title: Harlequin 5th ed army list
Post by: Farseer Amidas on February 11, 2009, 06:01:55 AM
Hi all.

I was looking threw the Harlequin army lists. In the 5th edition there is no mention to looting vehicles. Is this still an option?

Thanks

FA
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on February 11, 2009, 06:56:17 AM
Due to the way the rules have changed this option has been removed pending further testing. If you have a suggestion as to a working rule for it, please do post it.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Farseer Amidas on February 11, 2009, 06:59:08 AM
Not sure Rasmus. Was just looking forward to having a Lemon Russ, may get a looted one for Apoc anyway.

Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on February 11, 2009, 07:04:44 AM
I have a loted Leman Russ myself, but it is better to get working rules for it rather than botch something togetehr just to field the model, no matter how pretty it is.
 Like this (http://www.rasmushome.com/wh/e/pics/n/ha_o_l.jpg). :)
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Farseer Amidas on February 11, 2009, 07:13:20 AM
That is a cool model. Could you not field it in apoc with the breakdown table?? Sorry I don't really understand what didn't work about the rules.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on February 11, 2009, 07:15:47 AM
Apoc rules are for... wait for it... Apoc games.
That means that while they may work they are not well suited for normal 40k games, just as little as Apoc blasts work really well in standard 40k.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Farseer Amidas on February 11, 2009, 08:00:37 AM
Sorry if I confused the issue. I know apoc and normal games are very different. I would not try to mix them.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: 2quiet on February 11, 2009, 11:51:05 PM
Brilliant list, I am really enjoying it.

The only issue I have is that it is not stated anywhere (unless of course I missed it), that neither the Solitaire or the Great Harlequin are 0-1 choices. Being able to field three solitaires straight out feels wrong, and same to for multiple Great Harlequins (despite how much I would love to stack the effects of multiple Masques- probably further reason to restrict it though).

The same thing may be said for the Shadowseer, but given the new Codex:Eldar ruleset, I don't feel these ought to be portrayed as that rare, at least if they can only grant one squad VoT.

Can't wait to playtest it. *Goes back to writing my list*
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on February 12, 2009, 02:31:33 AM
You are of course right. I will put those back. They are in my "full" list, but somehow it slipped when I edited out all the copyright-information.

Edit: 1.2 is up, has the limitation and fixed some other small errors.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Scyrex Deledras on April 2, 2009, 02:10:31 PM
I have a question on the existing 5th ed Harlequin rules:

1. Will we be creating an FAQ section for it?

If so, then...

2. How do we regard the Mockingbird's Sonic Cannon for Weapon Destroyed purposes? Is the entire thing lost, or does it just count as having 2 vibro-cannons?

And

3. The Masque of the Red Death gives all Harlies in 12" Furious Charge. Don't Harlequins automatically come with Furious Charge anyway?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on April 3, 2009, 03:42:14 AM
1. It only has the one weapon - the Sonic Cannon. If it is destroyed it is destroyed. You cannot argue that a twin-linked weapon that gets a Weapon Destroyed simply becomes a single-type of that same weapon, either.

2. Odd. Will look into that.

Edit: Typos and tweak fixed. Uploaded new version.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Nileez on April 17, 2009, 05:29:41 PM
Quick question, is there a reason that VoT is a +0 point upgrade? If it were me I would just list VoT in the special rules and give the option to also take misdirection for +[whatever the number]points.

But then again I'm not the one writing the book :)

Nice job BTW
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Farceseer Syranaul on April 18, 2009, 02:24:21 PM
The links are down.  At least at this time.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on April 21, 2009, 05:31:39 AM
Quick question, is there a reason that VoT is a +0 point upgrade? If it were me I would just list VoT in the special rules and give the option to also take misdirection for +[whatever the number]points.

But then again I'm not the one writing the book :)

Nice job BTW
It is just a way to straighten the bookkeeping, and not force anyone to have VoT. Of course, under normal circumstances it would not make sense not to get it (seince it is free) but still. :)

The links are down.  At least at this time.
The 5th one is up at least.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run) on April 21, 2009, 06:28:17 AM
Once this is finished, is this going to be submitted to GW? I am thouroughly impressed with what has been done here, and would love to see this become offical.

Also, can we get Rasmus on the GW staff by any chance? Then we may actually get something done :-\
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on April 21, 2009, 06:50:51 AM
Once this is finished, is this going to be submitted to GW? I am thouroughly impressed with what has been done here, and would love to see this become offical.

Also, can we get Rasmus on the GW staff by any chance? Then we may actually get something done :-\
I have submitted several versions during 3rd and 4th ed, and of course nothing happened. The days of fanmaterial (in CJ or CA) are gone, I'm afraid.

and I will never make staff. I like the game more than I like making money off the game.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run) on April 21, 2009, 07:39:03 PM

and I will never make staff. I like the game more than I like making money off the game.

Which is exactly why I would want you on staff - that is what we need, someone who cares about the game rather than the money. This was me at my old job - I taught Tae Kwon DO. I cared about the traditions and the art, my boss cared about the money and the buisness. I taught on the floor, and he ran the the business aspects of it. It worked out pretty well, although we did clash on some things (I was more willing to do things for free than he was).

This is my point, we need some people in the company to focus soely on the game aspect, and some soely on the gaming aspect.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Frost.fire on April 26, 2009, 04:34:06 AM
Some of the statlines and equipment are completely gone from some sections, mainly just Troupes.  Was this on purpose to just fill it in with the CJ statline/equpiment by ourselves or is it not wholely finished yet

EDIT :: Ok, I got to the final paragraph.  Knowing I need my Eldar.  It's a very impressive list/codex.  I got the ok to use it at my local GW
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on April 26, 2009, 05:38:23 AM
I have a version with all the statlines, but of course it  would violate GW copyright, so the version I am publishing on the web is blank, and just referring to the Eldar Codex.
I am glad you get to play it. It is fun to play the list, I found, and if you find anything in playtesting I have missed, let us know.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: 2quiet on April 28, 2009, 04:23:43 AM
I played a game with this list a while back, but after that my internet stopped working and I subsequently forgot to put up feedback from it. This has now reminded me to do so, however being from a while ago my mind is a bit fuzzy on it. I'll put anything else I remember up as I think of it, but for now, this is what I recall:

As has been said, the "Furious Charge" ability has been confused. When I played, I played without Furious Charge at all, assuming I didn't have it (as otherwise the Masque makes no sense). That seemed to hurt the harlequins a lot.

I brought the harlies in through deepstrike, due to my Masque, but had an odd thought as I did. The harlequin flip belt rule says that they ignore difficult terrain. There appeared to me no place where it qualified when they ignore difficult terrain as there is with some units, so we wondered whether the harlequins were able to ignore difficult terrain during deep strike. My opponent was happy to allow it, stating that "if anyone would be able to, it would be the Harlies", but I opted to take any tests as were required. I was relatively lucky with that considering we were playing on a fairly terrain dense board, but it still hurt a fair bit, and considering the high risk of bringing in harlies from deepstrike anyway (scatter one way and your out of charge range, scatter the other and your within 1") it might be fair to allow them to ignore terrain when deepstriking. I'm not sure still though.

Ok, thats all I can remember for now. Oh, except for don't charge a solitaire alone at a fortuned squad of striking scorpions with a farseer. (I wanted to "throw him in the deep end" just to rule out for sure he wasn't uber-broken. He's not.).

It was a fun list to play with, even if I got them horribly slaughtered.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on April 28, 2009, 08:00:18 AM
I will look into the Deep-strike-into-dense-brushes-thing. Thank you for pointing it out.
The Furious Charge-issue has been fixed now by the way. :)

Edit: I made some alteration to the document, but I am not uploading it just yet, in case more feedback arrives.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Scyrex Deledras on April 28, 2009, 09:56:29 AM
A friend and I just played a MASSIVE battle using the Harlie dex. I'll probably post it in the batrep section just as soon as my laptop gets fixed.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on April 29, 2009, 12:01:17 PM
Lovely. It is always fun to see what sort of battlefield-testing the list can go through.

Edit: Version 1.12 is now uploaded.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Fenix7729 on May 14, 2009, 07:21:49 PM
Hi everyone, haven't been on for awhile, (maybe about a year or 2 now) and I was reading up on the 5th edition.  I have a question about the Masque of the Red Death.  When it say a unit, does that mean it is stating for any army, or just the Harlequins?
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 15, 2009, 02:39:38 AM
It is a Harlequin unit. I will clarify that.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: headfirst on May 16, 2009, 07:08:47 PM
Thanks Rasmus, this is AWESOME!
Just a few things to point out (blue is problems, yellow suggestions IMO):
1. In the Master Mime fluff, he is called a 'Mast Mime'.
2. All monstrous creatures have move through cover, adding this USR to Spiritwalker does nothing.
3. The benathai says +1 to spotting distance. Would this make enemies see more? Enemies can see (2D6x2+2)" if I have two Benathai, or is it supposed to be (2D6x2-2)"?
4. Jbikes already have TL-catapults, they come with them, see in the CWE dex.
6. Masque of the SS: First few pages of 5th ed say you must always abide by second result if re-rolling. You could keep it like it is, or make it roll 3D6 for fall back and discard 1D6 of your choice.
5. You blank out Spiritwalker stats in Forces, but not in the army list.
7. IMHO, the Suspender-fitted SR should just make DJs have 'relentless' USR.
8. Question: If I kill 8 enemies and win the combat by 3, what does the Dread Mask double? the 8, or the 3? -6Ld or -11?
9. I miss DJs with Powerblades. :( I remember them shredding marines in combat.
Thanks. Like I said, this is a brilliant project, best Harlequin codex I've seen. Keep it up!
I'm gonna go playtest this soon.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: Rasmus on May 17, 2009, 04:56:47 AM
Thank you for your feedback. I am happy that there are still typos and inconsistencies found, because at this point I have stared myself blind at them. :)

1. Not on my original document, but it has beeen fixed in the published version now.
2. Ah, of course, silly me.
3. Claridfied
4. Simplicity - a good thing.
6. And so important that it comes before 5 even, and fixed.
5. The trouble with maintaining two documents.
7. Which is what it amounts to. Again, simplicity is a good thing. Fixed.
8. Clarified.
9. Powerblades are no longer in the list at all, so fitting it on the DeathJesters really seems a bit silly, sadly.
Title: Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
Post by: headfirst on May 17, 2009, 07:18:13 AM
Thanks Rasmus, its pretty cool to see all those changes.
2. Does Misdirection count as a Warlock power (like VoT does)?
5. Benathai attack does not have type (i.e. add heavy or assault)
0. For Dread mask, doublechecking: lose with two wounds=-4 Ld, or by two wounds? I r still confoosed. EDIT:Maybe say '-2 Ld penalty becomes -4 Ld pemalty'
9. Do Spiritwalkers/mimes get FNP from Mo/RedDeath?
9. Mo/ShiftingShadows: only apply for troupe(troop) choices?
4. a suggestion to help distinguish between Harlie troupes and all Harlies: For Mo/LastLaugh put "...all models within 12" that have Dance of Death..."
A. So basically, benathai make me more visible to the enemy, so there's no point in getting only one unless I have misdirection.

I guess I'm just obsessed with the idea of a perfect Harlequin Codex.  ;D


I'm a fan of the EO 'Quin list for 5th ed, but I also love gav's edition. I think it would be cool to add some of the old wargear (simplifying and updating it), So I've added three items here. They are not the same as in the original.

This is only a pa