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Main => General 40k => Topic started by: Calamity on May 23, 2020, 10:30:31 AM

Title: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Calamity on May 23, 2020, 10:30:31 AM
So Iím assuming that youíve all seen the news?  :)

Iím pretty excited myself.  Iíve been bitten by the bug yet again.  My wallet is in trouble!  ;D
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Dread on May 23, 2020, 11:35:31 AM
I've been through 7 editions, eh, so what's another one, I guess. Not trying to be a downer just I have so many worthless books now and my newest 40k rule book hasn't even lost its fresh smell yet. I'll remain optimistic. The video they put up with the sisters and necrons is amazing for sure.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Myen'Tal on May 23, 2020, 01:39:02 PM
Well, Necrons, you now have my money and my devotion, in time :).
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Wyddr on May 23, 2020, 03:49:16 PM
I'm encouraged by the note saying they won't be invalidating any codexes, so that's nice.

It does seem that every time I'm about to get around to doing Thousand Sons again, we get an edition change that nerfs the amphetamine parrot out of an already weak force.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Cavalier on May 23, 2020, 09:50:39 PM
9th edition is phenomenal. I've loved 8th edition but 9th brings back so much of the stuff I missed, cleans the game up, speeds things up very, very significantly, more flavor, and the Crusade campaign system is amazing and the only way I want to play now. I cant say enough good things about it. Its been a joy to play, cleaner, more tactical depth, faster and deeper thematic elements. Plus official, very robust rules for campaign play. I've loved it

Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Temperance on May 23, 2020, 11:22:31 PM
Iím excited.

As my posts said, I was thinking about getting back into 40k lately. This makes it seem like an outstanding time to do so!

Although all the cool new models and rules is gong to give me a big case of army-choice-paralysis again, Iím afraid.

Iím getting around it for now by just starting a kill team of Howling Griffons. That gives me a project to work on while figuring out which to -really- spend money on!

I really wish they could go back to armor values and siding. Doesnít seem to be in the cards, but any good rule fixing is always welcome, assuming they arenít changing just for the sake of change.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Sir_Godspeed on May 24, 2020, 12:08:42 AM
I was about to say it felt like 8th ed. wasn't that old, but then I looked up the age of each edition, and 3-4 years is about average, it seems.

So here's a question to the old-timers: is powercreep inevitable with stuff like this? Or does powercreep tend to happen more DURING editions, with the release of new codices and models they want to sell, as opposed to on an edition-to-edition basis?
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Temperance on May 24, 2020, 09:34:30 AM
In my experience (which doesnít include the most recent few editions), a new edition isnít about power creep so much as simply changing whatís powerful (and, often, a points decrease allowing people to buy, Er, bring more models).

Some stuff will get better, some worse. If s generally healthy to mix things up; lest we get stuck with an all-assault or all-shooting meta forever.

I guess, ideally, it would be perfectly balanced and everything would be equally viable forever. But in reality thatís clearly just wishful thinking.


Personally, I wonder what Primaris marines will do now that their whole range is out.

The most popular army is, generally, going to end up a bit more elite with a few less models o would think.

If wonder if that will make the currently ďeliteĒ eldar aspect warriors look very underwhelming, and how that will feel. Or if necron warriors will now look like a shambling undead horde in comparison. And I really wonder how todayís present horde armies will feel.

It almost feels to me like sisters are taking the place marines had. Thereís nothing wrong with that, and it gives them even more character, but I donít think theyíll ever become ďtheĒ main army, and I think it could be weird to have the new ďaverageĒ actually be really elite.

Not necessarily bad at all. But maybe weird.

Power creep could always end up making Primaris feel very average though, somehow. Although thatís a scary thought.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Cavalier on May 24, 2020, 11:42:53 AM
I dont really think in 8th edition the issue has been power creep. There were 2 books that were out of line with everything else, the Knights codex and the the 2nd Marine codex was a mistake and the big FAQ's to radically changed the way they played and has brought them largely back down to earth. They are still top-tier but its anyones game really, at least if you look at tournament numbers before the lockdown. Tyranids, Drukhari, Genestealer Cult, Sisters someone even won a GT with Harlequins.

And honestly the first Marine codex was a mistake too, as just a few months later the standard was sort of set, with Imperial Guard, Drukhari and Harlequins for very solid entries that have been competitive in all arenas of play all edition.

Also some books are simply easier to harness than others. Even before their Psychic Awakening release, Harlequins were out for 2 years before anyone really got a handle on them but they have been excellent since day 1.

Also the writers do not amp up the power on new units to sell models. The terrible state of the Marine codex when it first came out is proof enough of that. Same with Sisters which is one of the biggest releases ever, its a very balanced book that is actually very difficult to play. Same with all the new Ork stuff that came out last year. Hardly anyone plays those units because the rules are very sub-par.

IMO what we are experiencing are sort of 40k butterfly effects, where each new release, faq etc. have big impacts on the effectiveness of certain army builds, units etc. You gotta remember this model of constantly balancing the rules is very new for 40k, so shifts in power are bound to happen.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: tryanotherone - smurfernating on May 24, 2020, 01:51:05 PM
9th edition is phenomenal. I've loved 8th edition but 9th brings back so much of the stuff I missed, cleans the game up, speeds things up very, very significantly, more flavor, and the Crusade campaign system is amazing and the only way I want to play now. I cant say enough good things about it. Its been a joy to play, cleaner, more tactical depth, faster and deeper thematic elements. Plus official, very robust rules for campaign play. I've loved it

That's what people always say when a new edition is released.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 24, 2020, 03:38:02 PM
So here's a question to the old-timers: is powercreep inevitable with stuff like this? Or does powercreep tend to happen more DURING editions, with the release of new codices and models they want to sell, as opposed to on an edition-to-edition basis?

A new edition doesn't bring in power creep.  My view is that it's a consolidation of rules that have been implemented, while also giving the opportunity to make bigger changes that need more fundamental changes to work.

Power creep was a big issue from 3rd to 7th edition.  A new codex would be released and, generally speaking, it would be stronger than anything else on the market.  8th edition was the most fun I have had playing 40k in a long time because, for the most part, the rules were roughly in line with each other.  When things got out of hand, GW stepped in to make the necessary adjustments instead of letting them sit until the new edition.

My favourite part of the past edition was that GW saw how things were being used and made changes.  Certain abilities that were too powerful received necessary changes, where in the past they would have held on to them until they received a new codex in the next edition.  People started spamming individual units instead of making cohesive armies, so GW updated how to design an army.

Yeah, it leads to a lot of record keeping to be aware of everything that has changed, but at least the changes were being made instead of being told to go pound sand and deal with it for another 3 years.  That's why I'm not bothered by this edition coming.  Bring everything back to a basic starting point, and build from there.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: magenb on May 24, 2020, 06:51:57 PM
Given all the current codexes will be playable from the the start, its not ripping out any of the elements that would actually balance the game correctly.

For clarification, by balance I mean any two armies should be able to face off in a straight up kill every thing fight and either side should have a fair chance of winning regardless of going first or second.

Unless GW strips back the game back to the CAD system with no allies, then they are going to have a really bad time trying to reach that sort of balance. There are just too many combinations.

Then to add fuel to the fire, add brand new units (rather than updated sculpts), it would be a nightmare trying to get a balanced system out. Which inevitability leaves you with an unstable gaming system. In the video game scene, this is technically less problematic, updates are free, but even then, it is extremely difficult to maintain players when it happens and often leads to the game basically dying out.


GW has introduced errors into the system, perhaps they are not intended to act as sales drivers, but some of these like the dreadnaught that can offload wounds and get yet another chance of saving against them, are just obviously broken. There does seem to be some cashed up powergamers that take full advantage of this, which creates a pay to win scenario, which is a good way to tank your game.

It all adds up to a rather toxic environment regardless of how the game currently plays now. The business side of GW isn't helping this, take the current price hike of really old sculpts and rather recent sculpts in the middle of a massive global economic down turn..


I hope I'm wrong, but I'm expecting more of the same from 9th ed.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Cavalier on May 24, 2020, 09:17:46 PM
9th edition is phenomenal. I've loved 8th edition but 9th brings back so much of the stuff I missed, cleans the game up, speeds things up very, very significantly, more flavor, and the Crusade campaign system is amazing and the only way I want to play now. I cant say enough good things about it. Its been a joy to play, cleaner, more tactical depth, faster and deeper thematic elements. Plus official, very robust rules for campaign play. I've loved it

That's what people always say when a new edition is released.

Sorry man, but thats just not true. I wasn't ready to let go of 2nd edition, I didnt like 5th, or 7th edition at launch either. I've played 9th ed for a long time now and I love it.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Killersquid on May 25, 2020, 12:30:20 PM
I've played since third edition. 7th edition has been the best edition for game balance without any doubt.

Yes, things at launch might sometimes be a bit bonkers, but games workshop does a great job and wrangling in the biggest issues.

It's a big game however, with a lot of moving parts. It's also not a game designed for tournament play, so it won't ever be 100% balanced. But,  it'll be close enough.

In previous editions, there was rarely faqs, and if something was absolutely bonkers, you had to just live with it until the codex got updated in 3-5 years.

As an aos player, I loved 1st edition, but 2nd edition cleaned up the game and did a great job on improving the game with subtle but important changes. I forsee the same with 9th. They've had three/four years to collect data and see how the game played, and this will be less a new edition, but a more polished version of 8th.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 25, 2020, 12:52:00 PM
Given all the current codexes will be playable from the the start, its not ripping out any of the elements that would actually balance the game correctly.
Not quite.  By allowing people to continue using their current codex, what that is saying is that the core mechanics of the game hasn't changed.  In this case, the core mechanics would be the stat lines and weapon stats.  It is the same reason you could have (theoretically) used a 4th edition codex in 7th edition (provided I'm remembering correctly and it was 4th that introduced the USRs lol).

The reason they had the Indexes at the start of 8th was because they changed how the stat lines were used, and how weapons worked.  It's the same as when 3rd was brought out and the rulebook had super basic codexes in it.  You needed something to play with while you waited on codexes to be released.

Now, as had been the case between 3rd and 7th, you have a codex that will work within the current rules set until it gets updated.  Rest assured, the updated codexes will be coming that will truly bring balance to the Force game
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: kim on May 25, 2020, 05:29:58 PM
From a lore perspective, on the NecronsÖ
My first thought seeing that picture, is we are seeing the Necron military now. Interesting.  :)
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Partninja on May 25, 2020, 11:32:35 PM
9th edition is phenomenal. I've loved 8th edition but 9th brings back so much of the stuff I missed, cleans the game up, speeds things up very, very significantly, more flavor, and the Crusade campaign system is amazing and the only way I want to play now. I cant say enough good things about it. Its been a joy to play, cleaner, more tactical depth, faster and deeper thematic elements. Plus official, very robust rules for campaign play. I've loved it

That's what people always say when a new edition is released.

I very much trust Cav here. If you didn't know he's a play tester and has been playing 9th for a while it seems.

His comments makes me very hopeful and I trust what he says.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Sir_Godspeed on May 25, 2020, 11:41:51 PM
So what do people think about the newly revealed Necron models?

I think some of them will take some time to get used to. Not the new Necron Warrior, which is basically the same but new, but some of the walkers and weirder units. A lot of them feel... slightly incongruent with the older units, if that makes any sense. I'm not sure myself, there's just something that clashes visually for me when I saw pictures of them together with the Monoliths. They just look slightly different enough for me to not feel like the aesthetics are entirely cohesive. Maybe it's the spindliness and tubes and wires everywhere on some of them... not sure.

Again, it might just be that they're new.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/05/24/warhammer-40000-more-models-revealedgw-homepage-post-3/ (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/05/24/warhammer-40000-more-models-revealedgw-homepage-post-3/)
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: magenb on May 26, 2020, 02:00:00 AM
I've played since third edition. 7th edition has been the best edition for game balance without any doubt.

because flying demon princes with 2+ re-rollable saves that can unleash devastating psychic powers and even position swap with another prince is the hall mark of a balanced game... 7th _mechanics_ were fine, it was the formations and the utter cheese in the later codexes that almost killed the game.


Not quite.  By allowing people to continue using their current codex, what that is saying is that the core mechanics of the game hasn't changed.  In this case, the core mechanics would be the stat lines and weapon stats. 

They have already said Command Points are staying and getting a boost, so I'm taking it that strats are staying. It's an interesting mechanic, but along with detachment army building it is best left in narrative games where balancing isn't as big of an issue.

I would also consider mortal wounds being a core mechanic, having an attack that is basically unsavable and that can be spammed is on the nose, you had scores of people complaining about D strength weapons in the previous editions. AoS had this toned down, but really the game can do without it entirely.

I'll give it a fair go using the free rules, but really they can thank people like Cav for that as GW is acting more like EA and Disney at this point lol.




So what do people think about the newly revealed Necron models?

The spider units look cool, but don't really fit the slow methodical army idea very well. Given how hit and miss melee has been in 8th, I hope this means they have fixed melee combat up in 9th as these could ad a fun new dynamic to Necrons. 

The new warriors faces look cartoony in a few shots, this might be more to do with image/paint though. I'm torn on the guass rifle change, the green rod is just iconic. I kind of hope they at least have the barrel being a separate piece so fans that love the look can easily swap on in.

Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Calamity on May 26, 2020, 09:01:52 AM
9th edition is phenomenal. I've loved 8th edition but 9th brings back so much of the stuff I missed, cleans the game up, speeds things up very, very significantly, more flavor, and the Crusade campaign system is amazing and the only way I want to play now. I cant say enough good things about it. Its been a joy to play, cleaner, more tactical depth, faster and deeper thematic elements. Plus official, very robust rules for campaign play. I've loved it

That's what people always say when a new edition is released.

I very much trust Cav here. If you didn't know he's a play tester and has been playing 9th for a while it seems.

His comments makes me very hopeful and I trust what he says.

I forgot Cav was a play tester!  :o

With that in mind Iím feeling very confident about 9th edition now.  :)

So what do people think about the newly revealed Necron models?

I think some of them will take some time to get used to. Not the new Necron Warrior, which is basically the same but new, but some of the walkers and weirder units. A lot of them feel... slightly incongruent with the older units, if that makes any sense. I'm not sure myself, there's just something that clashes visually for me when I saw pictures of them together with the Monoliths. They just look slightly different enough for me to not feel like the aesthetics are entirely cohesive. Maybe it's the spindliness and tubes and wires everywhere on some of them... not sure.

Again, it might just be that they're new.

http://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/05/24/warhammer-40000-more-models-revealedgw-homepage-post-3/ (http://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/05/24/warhammer-40000-more-models-revealedgw-homepage-post-3/)

You mean the War Of The World style walkers?  I liked them initially...but you have a point.  They do look odd when compared to the monolith and such. 
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Myen'Tal on May 26, 2020, 09:55:58 AM
I honestly think most of the range is about to be converted into new models. You guys are right, a lot of the current range simply does not fit in with this new stuff.

I don't think we've seen all the new stuff just yet :).
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: magenb on May 26, 2020, 06:36:55 PM
You mean the War Of The World style walkers?

Rolf nailed it :) both walker variants look kit bashed, not bad I guess.

The new destroyer looks great, I also like the look of the new monolith, but that new Ctan looks awesome, very AoS though. I'm guessing the model next to the destroyer is another lord.. and whoomp there is it.. very nice sculpts.

The unit in front of the monolith looks like a new assault unit.. they don't look right..


A few of those necron warriors have immortal weapons..

did you see the the model between the walker and monolith, just below the the flier...
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Killersquid on May 26, 2020, 06:59:40 PM
I listened to the FAQ stream today, where they answered folks questions about the new edition. Gotta say, I am even more stoked than before.

The main thing, is that I CANNOT WAIT to play crusade campaigns.

They said that the core rulebook will have heaps of stuff for it, but each new codex will expand on the crusade system for it (for that particular army). If your captain gets super hurt, he can be interred in a dreadnought, you can have thousand sons hunting for lore, or Dark Angels seeking the Fallen. Having injuries and achievements for units just sounds super cool. Also, the campaign system seems to follow how the campaign system for Warcry is done, so each player has their own crusade, it's not linked to other players. 100% stoked.

For the other things, here are some of my standouts.

1) Deathwatch is getting lots of exciting stuff, right after 9th edition drops.

2) Rules which apply to vehicles (like shooting in combat), also apply to monsters.

3)Sounds like you can apply keywords to terrain, some of which make the whole terrain block LoS.

4) Both players start with same amount of CP (based on game size). You spend CP like you do now, but also for putting units in reserve, or getting other detachments and/or allies. Also sounds like reserves will be more dynamic

5)overhaul to how overwatch and falling back work (along with new universal stratagems to deal with that)

6) Crusade sounds freaking amazing! My local group are already committed to playing crusade leagues. The new models look absolutely outstanding. the new necron warriors are a huge improvement over the existing ones. I also need at least one set of all the new primaris models for my Space Wolves. In my group, we have two necron players already, who are pretty hard for the new stuff lol.

I've not been this excited for a new edition, since AOS 2nd edition.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Partninja on May 26, 2020, 07:24:56 PM
Mage- In one of the snippets they said they're changing how stratagems are used. Or something to that effect. I don't remember seeing they are going to be more powerful. They even mentioned how armies are built around them and they want to adjust that.

That and the changes to terrain (to make terrain more important and useful) have me the most excited.

Not excited about buying tons of new Necrons...I'll probably get the big winged C'Tan thing and The Silent King for sure. They're just awesome. Going to hold off on the rest. For now. I have limited room for more Necrons.

Luckily I have enough spare Gauss Blasters I should easily be able to convert some Flayers to whatever the new gun they can get is.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Dread on May 26, 2020, 08:36:17 PM
Hey everyone.

First off I have to tell ya'll, I hated 6th  ed but despised 7th ed. Only played because my group played. 6th ed destroyed my have fun armies. It turned my group into power players and 7th just added fuel to the fire. 8th is such a reprieve from that. I enjoyed 2nd ed but you had so much home work. 3rd was a breath of fresh air, 4th was good but 5th was fun, broken yes, but could have some fun games. 8th was so much fun from the get go, unfortunately power creep started but still a good time. So if Cav says it's gonna be good, I believe him.

Now on to my beloved Necrons. Excited yes but broke money wise already so will be very picky. I already have a big army so adding a bit here and there will be ok, money available that is. Illuminor for sure only because I usually run him and my failcast one is bad, really bad mold.

Marine stuff stopped being exciting for me during 6th. All that made my Dark Angels unique got given to all chapters, rules, toys, etc. Now my Grey Knights, love them, different. Really fun to try and win with them.

I'm really not ready for a new edition, as I said before, my rule book for 8th still smells new. If the new ed box is what they say, I'll have to find someone to split it with just for the new Necrons.  We'll see.

Happy gaming! 8)
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Radec on May 27, 2020, 12:45:19 PM
 I'm very interested in seeing what changes they made with morale - new interactions etc. I've had only a couple of games since 7th, but when I did leadership seemed to me as the stat for 'how much more damage you take if you take a lot of damage'. It's true that its primary role since 3rd has been to tell if a unit runs away or not but there is so much more that can be done with it 
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Wyddr on May 27, 2020, 03:14:10 PM
Honestly, Leadership has been a dump stat for so many armies for decades. Even back when units could run away, it almost never happened since it could be avoided by, like, a dozen special rules available to everyone but a few certain factions. At least 8th Ed morale makes a difference in games more often.

I'm excited to see how they can streamline the game and make things more interesting. Evening out Command Points is a great idea and I'm looking forward to that, particularly.

Here's hoping psychic powers get a little more interesting, but that's a perennial complaint of mine. I just want Thousand Sons to have more interesting options than "light them on fire" or "light them on fire more" or "light one specific guy on fire."
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 27, 2020, 03:55:30 PM
I would love to see Leadership become useful, especially for armies that use the stat as their main ability *coughNightLordscough*

I had seen some chatter that Leadership was being changed in a way that would make the Night Lords and other armies that affect Morale to have a larger impact.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Calamity on May 27, 2020, 04:06:00 PM
Iím curious as to what theyíre doing with leadership too. 
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Radec on May 28, 2020, 03:27:55 PM
I've already negotiated a split of new box when it comes out. At the rumoured price of 120 quid (not confirmed by any source, though) it will be a very lucrative deal :D
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Calamity on May 29, 2020, 08:03:50 AM
I've already negotiated a split of new box when it comes out. At the rumoured price of 120 quid (not confirmed by any source, though) it will be a very lucrative deal :D

Oh nice!  :D

Anyone know of the changes to the rules yet?
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Cavalier on May 30, 2020, 07:12:26 PM
What I can tell you is the game plays much faster and cleaner. Reserves make a massive impact on the game, as does terrain, so defensively there are a lot more tools at your disposal.

Because of reserves and certain other elements, T1 flows much faster, as in all my games at least, everyone took as full advantage of reserves as possible. Because it comes at a CP cost its not an easy choice, but very important. The way reserves works is very different than previous editions. Its hard to describe without giving away too much, but its very dynamic and markedly different than previous iterations of reserves.

The game in general is much, much faster. There are a couple of habits you need to develop to keep it fast, but myself and playtesting partners barely had to crack the rulebook after the first 2 turns. So the game is fast, and the familiarity with 8th is still very much there.

The terrain rules are super important and will really be a hobbyists delight. If you've got a guy in your group that loves making terrain. You will be happy.

I found my unit selection for 9th has been very much different, but for the better. I felt 8th rewarded the long time collector of single faction, way more so in 9th. I feel really rewarded for sprucing up all my old favorite models/units to my current painting standard.

At times I've felt really jaded about having to reconfigure my collection, but if you've had a somewhat measured approach to collecting and have your core really solid, you'll hit the ground running. 

On the purely subjective side, there are a lot more stratagems and special abilities that really get the blood going thematically. In playtesting there were a lot of moments, where I was just like "YES! This is what my army is supposed to feel like/do!" Its hard to describe and I'll be able to get into on my podcast eventually, but there are some really awesome fist pumping stratagems that just scream rule of cool and are very good but not game winning on the table. 

Finally Crusade is just incredible. All the competitive guys in my team have dropped tourney play for Crusade because its so damn addictive. Its fun, easy to get going and all you need is a very basic story for the campaign to just sort of take off. The way armies interact with Crusade will very much help craft the story for you. When more is revealed I'll point to exactly what I'm referring too, but if you've longed for a great campaign system, to have a high stakes and meaningful series of games Crusade is your jam. There is a weird cross-over with tournament play in that, you feel like you are playing for that big win in every game and the time between sessions is almost as fun as the games themselves.

I know a lot of that is vague but I do have a very serious NDA on what I can say. And for those of you guys who've chatted with me throughout the years, you know all this comes from the heart. If I didnt think 9th was good, I'd be silent. There are things that still rankle me, but on the whole Im in love it, its my fave edition thus far.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: magenb on May 31, 2020, 03:21:29 AM
Thanks Cav, sounds like they have made a lot of interesting changes. I'm eager to take a look at the crusade system, our group is a fan of campaigns add its sounds like this is really going to add to them.


I do wish GW would stop the drawn out hype train, it would be great for them to go hey were are releasing 9th ed and here's the free rules to get you started, instead of months of speculation.. at very least it would make decisions about what units to buy next easier.

Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Blazinghand on May 31, 2020, 03:52:58 AM
Thanks for the review Cav, this looks really interesting. I'm excited for 9e!
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Radec on May 31, 2020, 03:56:16 AM
"Free rules now, everything else later" was what happened more or less with AoS on lunch. I prefer that they drop the whole package at the same time. Releasing rules piecemeal would only feed the internet hate machine (which, despite lack of concrete rules, is going even now...)
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Cavalier on May 31, 2020, 06:58:14 AM
No problem guys!

@Mage- No problem bud. Honestly if I were you just make sure you have a good balanced list/collection. My general rule of thumb is do I have a few 1500-2000pt mono-build lists with my fave faction that can shift between a more anti-infantry slant and anti-tank. I've literally added nothing to my collection, just repainted stuff so it looks spiffy.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Alienscar on June 2, 2020, 06:10:10 AM
I felt 8th rewarded the long time collector of single faction, way more so in 9th. I feel really rewarded for sprucing up all my old favorite models/units to my current painting standard.

Talking of long time collectors, did your play testing include non-Primaris models?

Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Cavalier on June 2, 2020, 08:08:08 AM
I cant get into specifics but we are very deep in the process and I can only reiterate what I said previously, all long time collectors will feel very rewarded. I'm looking forward to circling around on this topic both on my show, but here on the forums as well.

Somewhat related but beyond even armies and datasheets I'd say this edition is a hobbyists dream edition. Terrain is so dynamic now and if you like build terrain, you are going to have a field day. How you play with and around terrain is a major feature of the game now, and different styles of boards make for radically different games. I'm actually interested to see how this impacts army construction.

Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Killersquid on June 2, 2020, 10:04:30 AM
I'm so excited. My local group is already talking about running a crusade league.


Quote

Talking of long time collectors, did your play testing include non-Primaris models?

Why wouldn't it? Lol.


Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Cavalier on June 2, 2020, 10:21:46 AM
Crusade is so damn fun KS. Honestly its the only way I want to play going forward. Its so easy to get going and easy to track that I can easily imagine people having individual campaigns with individual players. I've been able to track my entire army on just about 2 pieces of paper. Its the choices in terms of battle honors, requisitions, or taking battle scars where it gets complicated- but thats only complicated mentally, in actually tracking it, its super easy and very fun.

I think people are gonna be pretty blown away in just how far you can push Crusade. It is a permanent part of the game now and tons of time has been spent on it.

I'm intrigued to see if it gives tournament play a run for its money, simply because it offers that high stakes series of games similar to a tournament, and it has hard and fast rules now. Its such an easier way to get in a high stakes series of games, instead of grinding out 5 games in a day
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Killersquid on June 2, 2020, 10:24:39 AM
Crusade is so damn fun KS. Honestly its the only way I want to play going forward. Its so easy to get going and easy to track that I can easily imagine people having individual campaigns with individual players. I've been able to track my entire army on just about 2 pieces of paper. Its the choices in terms of battle honors, requisitions, or taking battle scars where it gets complicated- but thats only complicated mentally, in actually tracking it, its super easy and very fun.

I think people are gonna be pretty blown away in just how far you can push Crusade. It is a permanent part of the game now and tons of time has been spent on it.


One of the guys in our club is a warhammer store manager, so I know he's seen the rules. He hasn't told us anything, but we both have the same attitude on how we like to play. He's really excited about it, so I know it's something I'm going to enjoy too.

I'm 3/4 of the way repainting my Harlequins right now, so I'm hopefully going to have them ready for 9th and all the good times to come!
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Cavalier on June 2, 2020, 10:37:20 AM
Bro those new Harlequin rules are so legit. I've been ripping the ever loving guts out of my opponents outside of playtesting with just regular Harlequins (helping out my Asuryani) I cannot wait to get new Harlies on the table.

The Soaring Spite Troupe Master is an absolute freaking monster now with the disembark after moving warlord trait, the mortal wound Pivotal role and Cegorach's rose? Good freaking night. He's got 50" threat range and Damage 4 in melee with Murderous Entrance, plus mortal wounds on top it. Give him a fusion pistol and party
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Killersquid on June 2, 2020, 10:53:55 AM
There is a lot of cool stuff! Spring spite seems the obvious choice, so I want to run something different lol. Might do dreaming shadow, or veiled path rules for a change. Since the release of the plastic kits mine were painted as midnight sorrow, now I'll be able to experiment!
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Dread on June 2, 2020, 01:42:00 PM
Bro those new Harlequin rules are so legit. I've been ripping the ever loving guts out of my opponents outside of playtesting with just regular Harlequins (helping out my Asuryani) I cannot wait to get new Harlies on the table.

The Soaring Spite Troupe Master is an absolute freaking monster now with the disembark after moving warlord trait, the mortal wound Pivotal role and Cegorach's rose? Good freaking night. He's got 50" threat range and Damage 4 in melee with Murderous Entrance, plus mortal wounds on top it. Give him a fusion pistol and party

Oh my! This is getting me excited for sure, can't wait to get back to playing the game myself. Hit a little hiccup this week so will be a little longer wait. Thanks Cav!
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: magenb on June 2, 2020, 08:01:00 PM
..He's got 50" threat range..

This is the problem with 8th, soo many rules that sound immediately awesome with little regard to game mechanics. Melee units threat range should not out reach standard infantry weapons, let alone super powered anti tank weapons and out pace vehicles, including skimmers that don't even need to worry about terrain..

40k rules used to have _some_ connection to real life, such as movement was restricted because you didn't know what was around the corner, uneven ground, rounds wizzing all over the battlefield, etc. It was close enough that you could actually use real strategies.

If this was a PvE game, it would be fine, but its a PvP game, a rule like that is going to leave someone salty and I wouldn't blame them, it not fun to have things like that used against you. It feels more like a cheat code than being out played.


Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Killersquid on June 2, 2020, 08:27:25 PM
I think your expectations are a bit unrealistic. 40k is never going to be a real life simulator, it's a board game.

For the harlequin trick, it sounds good on paper, but there are always ways to mitigate or negate them with smart deployment. They are also super fragile. A single harlequin character in the middle of your army will die fast.


Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Cavalier on June 2, 2020, 09:22:04 PM
Mage the threat range is because he's allowed to advance and charge, out of a Skyweaver that is also advancing and charging. You can kill him with a single unit of Guardsmen.

If you think a Harlequin Troupe Master disembarking and charging out of a vehicle is cheating, I think you gotta re calibrate your settings. That makes total sense within the lore and in game turns, its a move where you are giving up Warlord (and critical character) to take out another character or a small squad.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: magenb on June 3, 2020, 12:51:13 AM
Mage the threat range is because he's allowed to advance and charge, out of a Skyweaver that is also advancing and charging. You can kill him with a single unit of Guardsmen.

If you think a Harlequin Troupe Master disembarking and charging out of a vehicle is cheating, I think you gotta re calibrate your settings. That makes total sense within the lore and in game turns, its a move where you are giving up Warlord (and critical character) to take out another character or a small squad.

Yes jumping out a skimmer and fly kicking something in the face is very Harlie lore wise, but not over that distance. Most lore is effective written from a PvE perspective and they still don't go
that bonkers (most of the time lol).  (Player verse Environment)

While there is no official time frame per phase, the game mechanic does have a time component.  You can move forward with caution, or you can go full tilt, this reduces the amount of time you have to aim. Infantry carrying heavy weapons used to move or fire, due to how long it would take to set it up again, and so on. How far something moves is related to its potential speed, you can't have speed with out time. that' 50 inch coverage is a significant distance...


In a gaming system where it is PvP rather than PvE, the mechanics need to be a bit more like tic-tac-toe, in that for every move there is a a counter move. For example Feel no pain in previous edition could be bypassed with power weapons or double T, strength weapons, because feeling no pain is not really that useful when you've been chopped in half or taken an anti-tank rocket to the face, mind you that is also why high S weapons could out right kill multi wound models :) This also meant every army could be built to have a counter to any units that had it, you then had a dance of one side trying to deploy the beef cake units away from the counter, or trying to take out the count before it could hit them. There was a reasonable chance for either side to deal with it.


Now you could counter a 50inch charge by dropping a character in the middle of a unit, but how easy is it to remove any non-horde unit, even 10 primaris marines isn't that difficult to remove, or to make a big enough dent to create an opening.. especially if your using a soup.. so if you want to protect your self from that move you basically have to castle up around your character... You really shouldn't be able to cover that much ground on a battlefield unhindered. 


Games ultimately need to have a sense of fair play. While some people will get salty because they are snow flakes, some actually get salty because something happens that breaks that sense of fair play. The more that sense of fair play is broken, the less they are willing to continue playing. Ultimately I would feel rather crappy about pulling this sort of move on someone else, let alone if it was pulled on me. So, to me, this like a lot of other things in 8th, breaks that sense of fair play. 8th is also the first edition where I've heard people apologizing for a legit move before they do it, I guess that is both positive and negative in that its good people bad rules lol.


Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Killersquid on June 3, 2020, 07:46:16 AM
The 50" charge has existed since the Harlequins codex came out years ago, it's clearly not that big of a deal, as not many people know about it. You sacrifice your warlord, to try and get warlord/ another character. It's risk vs reward.

Gotcha moments can exist, but it's just good sportsmanship to warn your opponent of those sorts of things, so they are not caught off guard by it. It's impossible to know all the rules, so it's unreasonable to expect your opponent knows all yours. I always let my opponent know of any of the tricky things my army does, as I hate creating gotcha moments.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Cavalier on June 3, 2020, 08:30:17 AM
Mage the counter move to every move does exist, and it exists in more lore reflective ways than the bogus universal special rules mechanics that hamstrung all 13+ codices to a handful of mechanics, and if those mechancis didn't reflect your armies lore you were SOL.

Removing 10 Primaris Marines is easily done? Honestly man, I play one of the most high octane fire power based lists and if I have to remove 10 Primaris Marines, especially if they are in cover, its a considerable investment of fire power.

And in the SPECIFIC example of Harlequins, burning through chaff/screens is their biggest issue. Chewing through 10 Primaris Space Marines before combat is a huge task for them and if you make that opening with Harlequins you should absolutely have game mechanics to pull off such a move. If you pulll it off you've traded a knight for a queen and thats how Harlequins roll.

And as for this tic-tac-toe dynamic you want its never going to exist in a game with 13 factions and hundreds of units nor is anything resembling that the aim of the design team. Their goal is to bring the narrative to life, and in that their is going to be assymetry. Its not a barrier to play, its a challenge to overcome. Especially with Harlequins which are one of the most difficult to play armies and the game (and they should be).

I understand you want to go back to the days of 5th edition, which IMO were frankly terrible if you didnt play Grey Knight (which had 75% representation at tournaments at the end of the supposedly halcyon era of 40k) IG, Space Wolves or Drukhari. But lets not derail this thread any further. We can start a debate thread over the merits of 8th elsewhere. Lets keep this a place to talk about 9th edition
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Radec on June 3, 2020, 08:58:53 AM
@Cavalier can you answer this in light of your NDA:
In 9th,does fire direction matter (aside from maneuvering for LOS). No details needed(whether it is built in the core rules or the new specific terrain keywords), yes or no would suffice. Thanks
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Cavalier on June 3, 2020, 09:47:36 AM
Sorry Radec I can't answer that. I wish I could. But in general 9th is a continuation of 8th, with more refinement in terms of core rules, less shenanigans, more narrative and tactical depth in regards to terrain and stratagems. Thats as much as I can say.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Radec on June 3, 2020, 09:55:13 AM
Np, thanks  :)
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Cavalier on June 3, 2020, 12:28:59 PM
Thank the Gods they announced higher points totals. It was gonna be hard to doing these previews without that bit of information.

It makes for such a better game. Smaller armies, reserves, blast weapons, better vehicles makes for such a faster game, in addition to the already streamlined rules.

It really incentivizes support vehicles in my experience. Land Speeders, Vypers, Hornets etc. are great in this edition because they are low points models that fit a nice little niche and they are great Reserve options as well.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Partninja on June 3, 2020, 09:57:14 PM
I can't wait to see the terrain changes. My group has always played a good helping of various types of terrain on the board.

I was already playing games using the "always counts in cover" with longer Shuriken range and was loving it in semi-competitive games. It actually makes an army full of Avengers, Vypers and Windriders really good.

It sounds like these terrain changes put a lot more emphasis on it. Can finally live my dream of a Shuriken Ninja Craftworld list.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Cavalier on June 4, 2020, 07:44:49 AM
In my experience, the changes to terrain put a HUGE emphasis on Eldar mobility and maneuvering for both offensive and defensive reasons. In the past year, I've reconfigured my lists, to play more to my style, with more of an emphasis on speed and offense, as opposed to just overwhelming offense and its paid off in spades for me and has translated perfectly to 9th. Especially with how matched play secondaries work now (which I've incorporated into games of Crusade at times). 

I know it sounds like a hollow term, but dynamic, is the best way to describe 9th edition. You are interacting with the terrain, you are interacting with objectives (as described in the new article pertaining to actions), the way reserves work now drastically re-shapes the table.

Its just a lot of damn fun. Also because there are less models on the board (due to higher points and reserves) there is more of a feeling out phase in Turn 1 which really helps the game IMO. But I'm looking forward to see how things go in the wild... anyway as you guys can tell I'm very excited
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on June 6, 2020, 04:47:51 PM
Damn it, they're redoing Aeronautica. Just when I was trying to get out they suck you back in again.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Partninja on June 6, 2020, 06:13:07 PM
I very much like the change to command points being tied to the army size.

Cav - Not sure if you give any hints but the new stratagem cut them down they previewed. How does that affect units with hit and run type abilities? My Shining Spears finally get it back and now they'll take mortal wounds using it ?
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Cavalier on June 6, 2020, 06:38:38 PM
@Ninja- Hey bud I've played a LOT of 9th and I have to admit, no one has popped that strat on me. It might be, because I'm dropping my Spears later in games where CP are at a premium and players are saving them for better strats, or I'm just straight up murdering whatever they go into.
 
Bear in mind, I'm using Spears as my primary assault tool because of increased points and still and no one is using that strat, so I wouldn't worry about it honestly. The only time you are dealing with that, is when you send them into hordes, and because of blast weapons there are less of them.  Also sending Spears in against hordes is always a scary movebecause they are only T4... so yeah I wouldn't worry about it. CP demands are intense in 9th because of reserves, buying detachments and the strats are really juicy.

So yeah, CP expenditure is up, its kinda of a desperation strat, and my opponents have all been saving their CP for bigger moves. Against hordes its a problem, but Spears are not what you want to send into hordes anyways. So I wouldnt worry about it in that particular match-up
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: magenb on June 8, 2020, 11:25:59 PM
Cav have you played on the new min area sizes? I realize this is _Min_ lol. Given the point charges is it crowded? Did they they adjust movement to compensate for the reduction?
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Cavalier on June 9, 2020, 12:31:57 PM
I actually haven't. Leading the Narrative Playtest team, my job is making sure the lore translates in game mechanics to the tabletop, thats about as much as my NDA will allow to elaborate on.

I have pretty strong feelings on this one. I know that the ITC is taking GW's lead on that choice, and I understand why. I think its easier on new people who can on game on their kitchen tables with smaller mats, it syncs up with Kill Team which allows you to just push two of those mats/boards together which is very fan friendly and its easier on FLGS and events in terms of space. All of this is very much customer friendly which is a major theme of everything GW has been doing. They are really trying to make it easier on the gamers and not have it be this massive investement of resources just to play games. This applies to new and old gamers and the biggest sign of this is yet to come.

But I honestly have zero intention of playing on a smaller gaming surface. I actually feel like the game for the first time in decades has breathing room. There is a feeling out process, as the table is not packed to the brim with models, movement and range are really important on a larger gaming table with less models and its not smash face from word-go with all weapons in range as soon as the game starts. And aesthetically it just look better

I'm not against it, its just not what I'm going to do. I also hope that other 40k players realize they do not need to be in consensus with each other. A plurality of play and ideas is so good for the game and that is also a big theme for the game now. The game is designed and thoroughly tested to play at low points and high points, and if you play Crusade you are HIGHLY encouraged to play at lower points values in the early goings and those games are brilliant!

So no I've not played on the smaller size mat, and its not something I plan on doing either. I think the game plays much better on the 6x4
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on June 9, 2020, 01:23:33 PM
I can see the table size from both perspectives.

Most of my games rarely use the full 6' length.  The only time it really gets used is when someone is playing a hoard army, and those are few and far between.  Most games are primarily played within 5'

It'll be interesting to see how my LGS adapts.  We have 6' boards, but we may cut 1' off and just use that as the reserves / dead pile area.  Or we might not adapt and just keep it at 6'.  It's really hard to say.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: magenb on June 10, 2020, 01:07:47 AM
I have not seen a GW store with 6x4 table in Aus in a rather long time, most are 4x4, which is fine for an introduction game, but really limits the battle sizes and causes problems for mobile armies that need breathing room. Most of the GW stores here have back to back 4x4 tables, so it gets super cramped, really off putting.

Since Tournament's are already looking into the smaller size, I don't blame them, it means potentially quicker games, more tables and therefore more players and potentially more $$. I suspect that non-GW store owners would also find this attractive but with the added bonus of having tournament players wanting this size to practice on.

I guess I can see with no technical reason for stores having to go max size, more will go the cheaper route and down size.


6x4 has been a bit of an odd size table wise, but a couple of 6 foot folding tables is less than a box of Banshee's now. Hindsight and all, but they could have just made the kill team boards divide evenly into the 6x4 format as well. If GW was really concerned about lowering the entry bar for new players, then you know, making the game cheaper than buying a video game console would be a better idea lol... Interesting observation though, video games have become cheaper than buying half a unit. Yet we all still throw our money at them bahahaha.


Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Killersquid on June 10, 2020, 09:46:45 AM
My local GW store has a bunch of 2x4 tables, which are moved around to make painting, or gaming tables. I will say, that I always loved playing smaller games on a 4x4, more than a big game on a 6x4. Takes less time, and always feels more tactical.

I've always wanted to get the cool Moon Base/Azyr ruins game board boxes GW sells, but the dimensions were always a bit off from regular gameplay, now seems like a great time to get those, as they fold up small, and can be broken down into the different gameplay sizes.

I'm pretty ambivalent about moving away from the 6x4. I do have a 6x4 fat mat, but I've never used it. I do like how with the Kill team/warcry boards, you can have an easy to set up, and customizable board size.

Having a 6x4 table is still great though, as now you have room to put dice/ models off the play surface, which I'll really enjoy.


 If GW was really concerned about lowering the entry bar for new players, then you know, making the game cheaper than buying a video game console would be a better idea lol

You don't need to spend $400+ to play Warhammer. Games Workshop has playstyles without as much investment (killteam, soon combat patrol come to mind). It's pretty easy to start playing for less than $100.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Partninja on June 10, 2020, 11:18:03 AM
The changes to Heavy weapons, and vehicles being able to shoot in CC is a huge game changer for me.

Baal Predators will be absolutely gross now.

My Taurox Primes can actually transport my Scions instead of sitting in place all game to by anti-tank gun turrets.

My Eldar become mobile again with more weapon options. I'm looking forward to being able to run Star Cannons on War Walkers, non-Saim-Han Vypers and even Wave Serpents.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Calamity on June 10, 2020, 12:48:31 PM
I havenít been keeping up with developments.  Now Iím sad.  :P
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on June 10, 2020, 01:41:41 PM
The changes to Heavy weapons, and vehicles being able to shoot in CC is a huge game changer for me.

Baal Predators will be absolutely gross now.

My Taurox Primes can actually transport my Scions instead of sitting in place all game to by anti-tank gun turrets.

My Eldar become mobile again with more weapon options. I'm looking forward to being able to run Star Cannons on War Walkers, non-Saim-Han Vypers and even Wave Serpents.

I am loving the penalty to hit only applies to infantry.  For my Ravenwing, it makes them much more effective while maintaining mobility.  It will also save on Command Points as I don't need to use Heroes of the Chapter to get a Warlord trait to negate the movement penalty.

Also, my Plasma Cannons are happy now!  A unit has 6+ models in it?  MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: magenb on June 10, 2020, 06:48:53 PM
You don't need to spend $400+ to play Warhammer. Games Workshop has playstyles without as much investment (killteam, soon combat patrol come to mind). It's pretty easy to start playing for less than $100.

I'm referencing the cost of getting into the 40k game, not the 40k universe. KT is actually the expensive way to get into the the 40k game, as you have to buy additional rules sets, codex, etc.



Tanks not having a penalty for moving and shooting makes sense as they stop to shoot. Although, it does seem a little more real if fliers that are not hovering hard a neg to their shooting.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Cavalier on June 11, 2020, 05:49:53 AM
Yeah Blast Weapons are great. I can say from experience its another reason the game is a lot faster. The games in my experience is built around mech MSU and its a much faster and tactically tight game. Most of 8th I played against just mobs and mobs of infantry, primarily because vechiles were just not reliable. Not so anymore.

That being said I'm still playing with a good deal of 9 man units, whether it be scatter laser Windriders (who can move and shoot freely) at 9 strong, or my Shining Spears at 9 strong.

The way I made this work is keeping them in reserves, taking out the blast weapons (or as many as I can) in the turns before they drop. This becomes a fun game within a game, and makes for some very tense moments as you really want those units coming in as soon as possible.

I failed to mention this previously but I thought it was worth noting, that in regards to Reserves, close-quarters specialists that have previously been to work intensive, as opposed to their long range counterparts are really very good now. Units like Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, combi-melta Sternguard which I think will be really popular, guarding the flanks for vehicles coming in out of reserves. The reason being, is they aren't shielded behind multiple layers of infantry. Parking those units in a handy transport like a Wave Serpent, Falcon or even a Razorback is really useful. Since vehicles can take full advantage of their movement and still maintain their accuracy, you can still get good firing angles, while protecting your flanks against in coming reserves. If you've got infantry popping up the flanks to you can obviously have close-combat units in there too. The main point being you dont need to bypass your opponents multi-layered front-lines to get cloee-quarters specialists into the fray now. Its really a lot of fun
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Partninja on June 11, 2020, 10:42:17 AM
I really wish they'd preview these new reserves rules because I'm not quite getting what you're putting down without reference.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Wyddr on June 11, 2020, 03:05:08 PM
So, am I alone in thinking that the new rules for Blast weapons, while better, are not really that impressive? A minimum of 3 shots is more-or-less what you'd be averaging anyway with most blasts. I can see how it's pretty great for Plasma Cannons and Thunderfire Cannons and stuff, but beyond that? Eh. My Basilisk is still riding the shelf here.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Myen'Tal on June 11, 2020, 03:12:53 PM
So, am I alone in thinking that the new rules for Blast weapons, while better, are not really that impressive? A minimum of 3 shots is more-or-less what you'd be averaging anyway with most blasts. I can see how it's pretty great for Plasma Cannons and Thunderfire Cannons and stuff, but beyond that? Eh. My Basilisk is still riding the shelf here.

Minimum of 3 shots for 10 models. Anything over 10 gets the maximum shots, I believe?
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on June 11, 2020, 03:59:56 PM
So, am I alone in thinking that the new rules for Blast weapons, while better, are not really that impressive? A minimum of 3 shots is more-or-less what you'd be averaging anyway with most blasts. I can see how it's pretty great for Plasma Cannons and Thunderfire Cannons and stuff, but beyond that? Eh. My Basilisk is still riding the shelf here.
You're right in that three shots is the average for a d6 blast weapon.  It's not a super powerful rule, but it makes blast weapons more reliable.

Apparently there is some confusion going around because the rule that was previewed said the weapon gets a minimum 3, whereas on the stream they said you get a minimum 3 per dice rolled.

Honestly, I look at this and want to include two more minimum size plasma cannon dev squads in my Dark Angels

Everything they've previewed so far has made me excited for this edition.  There hasn't been a single bad rule so far.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Partninja on June 11, 2020, 04:52:50 PM
I'm liking the terrain rules. Makes things much slicker and less confusing. Wasn't as huge of a change as I was expecting but I like the way it works now.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on June 11, 2020, 06:29:19 PM
Agreed, I like how they've done the terrain.  Especially having the one trait that if it's tall enough, you can't see through it, but you can see into it.

No more of this "let's play ITC where the bottom floor blocks LOS crap"

Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: magenb on June 11, 2020, 06:41:38 PM
I really wish they'd preview these new reserves rules because I'm not quite getting what you're putting down without reference.

I'm guessing, but it sounds like the old outflank rule, where you can bring units in from the side of the table instead of your own deployment zone.

so if try to move your tank up on a flank, say within 12 of a board edge, Fire dragons could pop out of no where and nuke it. You'll have to pay very close attention to what people are holding in reserve and know their threat ranges.. basically GW wants you to move everything into the middle of the board so its a mass offering to Khorne :)


Its sounding like you'll be able to make charges from reserves too.




Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Wyddr on June 11, 2020, 09:15:00 PM
So, am I alone in thinking that the new rules for Blast weapons, while better, are not really that impressive? A minimum of 3 shots is more-or-less what you'd be averaging anyway with most blasts. I can see how it's pretty great for Plasma Cannons and Thunderfire Cannons and stuff, but beyond that? Eh. My Basilisk is still riding the shelf here.

Minimum of 3 shots for 10 models. Anything over 10 gets the maximum shots, I believe?

True, true, but *most* (like, vast majority) of the units I face these days are either 10 models or less or 30 models or more. 6 shots (that you have to hit with still) sort of sucks.

This will be great for certain units (LR Executioners, Demolishers, BTs for instance, or anything with Blast d3), but on balance I'm unimpressed. I'd still argue blast weapons are too weak and a lot of units that used to rely on the pie plate or flame template to be relevant are still just *not* relevant.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Cavalier on June 12, 2020, 07:03:20 AM
Wydrr, I played against IG more than any other faction in my playtesting of 9th and Basilisks are incredible. They are just brutal, as is the Wyvern. I just stopped running larger units that I couldn't reserve or webway because they just got hammered by IG artillery.

It makes them a top priority target. But some of the new terrain rules which weren't featured makes them even better. Cant say more. But blast weapons are a huge deal.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Wyddr on June 12, 2020, 08:27:00 AM
Wydrr, I played against IG more than any other faction in my playtesting of 9th and Basilisks are incredible. They are just brutal, as is the Wyvern. I just stopped running larger units that I couldn't reserve or webway because they just got hammered by IG artillery.

It makes them a top priority target. But some of the new terrain rules which weren't featured makes them even better. Cant say more. But blast weapons are a huge deal.

Well, then I look forward to seeing what else drops. Because 6 shots hitting on 4s? Unimpressive at the best of times.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Cavalier on June 13, 2020, 07:40:34 AM
6 shots hitting on 4's with virtually unlimited range firing from out of line of sight (with much more LOS blocking terrain available) is great, especially when taken in multiples. Given the strength, AP, d3 damage they are beyond deadly to large units of Marines, Shining Spears, Windriders, Marine bikers or any multi-wound infantry or cavalry units most of which want to be max size for stratagem, psychic power efficiency and to still have punch when losses are taken. When you layer relics, and regimental bonuses Basilisks are fantastic. They are also great against vehicles. I dont see whats not to love.

I've had to deal with them all edition in 8th and they'll be more popular now. All the Guard artillery is incredible.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Wyddr on June 13, 2020, 09:57:44 PM
If 40k follows AoS in that multiwound hits carry over to new models, I'll agree with you. As it stands, the best Basilisk shot you can hope for will kill 2-3 Marines in a volley (you know, *presuming* there are more than 10 marines in a unit for some reason, though who knows how) and take *maybe* 4 wounds off a vehicle. You can do more with the guard for half the price in a half dozen places. Do they kill bikes? Sure, but then bikes are pretty easy to kill.

I don't want to derail this into a discussion about Basilisks exactly, though. I have the same opinion of Battlecannons (*unless* you're a Russ that can fire twice) and Demolisher cannons (which are pretty solid antitank weapons, but not much else) and I stopped worrying about Prism Cannons ages ago and have never really regretted it and the Tau Ion Accelerator Cannon is a complete waste of points. Frag Missiles remain singularly uninspiring, Frag Grenades doubly so (unless the whole unit gets to throw them, so thanks Stratagems!) and just making it so that you get max hits against big units doesn't really mitigate any of the math that goes into making single 1d6 Blast weapons virtually useless for shooting at big units.

So, okay, sure - I'll take your word for it for now. But unless there's something else Blasts are getting besides the modest bump as described, I still consider them vastly inferior weapons to your run-of-the-mill multishot conventional guns. I'll take three or four heavy bolters over a Basilisk any day of the week.     
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Cavalier on June 14, 2020, 10:02:32 AM
Wydrr I'm sorry man, but Prism Cannons, stock Battle Cannon Leman Russ are some of the the most represented big guns in the game, especially at a competitive level before 9th edition. Fire Prisms have been outstanding ALL edition long and an absolute steal and have been a staple of competitive Eldar lists all edition long in an edition where tanks have hardly ever taken. Same thing with Leman Russ and all Leman Russ can double tap their turrets much like the Prism. They absolutley hammer vehicles and infantry and are premier weapons against Primaris Marines, Shining Spears, Skyweavers and other elite multi-wound models which absolutely rule the day presently.


And Brandon Grant won the LVO pure Guard list built on the back of 3x Battlecannon Leman Russ a single Basilisk and a Wyvern and of course an obligatory unit Bulgryn.

And I'm sorry but I am still not seeing your perspective on Basilisk. 200+ inch range, phenomenal AP and Strength, you can shoot it out of line of sight, and you'd rather have heavy bolters? I just dont see why.

Demolishers I can agree on. I believe the Ad Mech codex came out before the IG dex, and they instituted a minimum number of shots for the Dune Crawlers which should have been an institutionalized across many datasheets after that.

Anyways, we could probably go on, and on about this. I guess we'll just have to disagree and I dont want to clutter up the thread with my endless opposing views... but IMO fear the Basilisk  ;D ;D ;D ;D lol!
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Radec on June 17, 2020, 02:43:47 PM
New overwatch rules are out. I'm pretty pleased as overwatched always seemed so artificially introduced into the game to combat the charge distance of 2d6 in 6th which was also another bulload of gak IMO. Most interesting was the activatable terrain bonus. All in all - an interesting reveal
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on June 17, 2020, 03:42:02 PM
I'm getting a kick out of the comment sections on Facebook where everyone is going on about how the Tau are going to get what's coming to them.  Except they all seem to miss the line about units that have an ability to allow them to overwatch can still overwatch without using the stratagem.

What do the Tau have?  An army wide rule for Overwatch.

I've never been against Overwatch, as much of 3rd to 5th was the race to get into combat.  I do think it swung too far as it can be an incredible challenge these days to make a charge while still being potent enough to break the unit.  Making it into a stratagem will definitely change the balance and make combat a viable source of combat again.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: magenb on June 17, 2020, 07:03:52 PM
The universal stratagems so far have been interesting, in that they are not game breaking like being able to double attacks, etc. If the new codexes cut out all the overwhelming abilities, it could be a much more interesting game to play.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Radec on June 29, 2020, 01:43:55 PM
The new coherency rule ,leaked today, is all the rage. Basically ,as I am reading it, if you want to run  a line longer than 6 models you'll be forced to deploy as much more as a second row otherwise the unit will go poof. As it is written the longest lines will be atleast 2 ranks deep which effectively kills the conga line.
Also , if you want to maintain a certain length you'll have to invest in a third rank of models.
This rule is so good that I'm betting it will make its way in AoS
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Wyddr on June 29, 2020, 02:26:34 PM
Totally agreed on that. That rule looks great and long overdue. Conga-line shenanigans (as much as I have shamelessly benefited from them over the years) are stupid and I'm glad they're limiting their effect.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on June 29, 2020, 04:44:28 PM
I love the coherency rules now!  I missed the days of previous editions where you had to move back to coherency if it was broken.  The most fun was with 4th when you could call shots if you did enough wounds, and put a wound on random guy in the middle of a line of devastators to make them move.

Ahhhh... the rage from that was golden lol.

But this change is perfect to get rid of ridiculous congalines stretching out to cover two objectives while also being in range of a unit buff.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Calamity on June 30, 2020, 05:09:20 AM
Iím particularly interested in seeing the wording of this new coherency rule too.  Both for 40k and for wider implications.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Lachdonin on June 30, 2020, 11:25:28 AM
I’m particularly interested in seeing the wording of this new coherency rule too.  Both for 40k and for wider implications.

They were actually just shown in the preview.

All models in a unit must maintain a 2" horizontal, 5" vertical coherency with one other model in their unit. If a unit consists of 6 or more models, it must maintain coherency with at least 2 other models in it's unit.

So, you can still build screens out of large units, it's just a little harder to do so. The most practical way would be to do a staggered line, but... I mean... You're still really only looking at Orcs, Tyranids and Chaos Cultists that are going to have enough bodies to really pull it off.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on June 30, 2020, 04:02:26 PM
Iím particularly interested in seeing the wording of this new coherency rule too.  Both for 40k and for wider implications.
The information can be found here (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/29/faction-focus-genestealer-cults/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=40k&utm_content=40kGenestealerCults29June20&fbclid=IwAR3RIIHRnCcLyS9Dfm5t51bM03xWnV1OUsXtKgbbgBVreAquF-kTKUcMpFk), about 2/3rds down the page.  They detail both coherency, as well as how to handle the coherency check, which appears to happen at the end of the Morale phase.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run) on July 1, 2020, 09:05:19 AM
Have to stop lurking and chime in here.

I have been tentative about 9th and the hype around crusades for a bit...

Then in the GSC article  (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/29/faction-focus-genestealer-cults/) they showed actions and one example...

Holy amphetamine parrot.

I feel that for ages GW has tried to make narrative objectives and missions. Too often these have not been balanced, or required too damn much bookkeeping for little return, or were just not fun.

From the small bit shown here, it feels to me that someone finally sat GW down and said, "Ok, tell me what you want to do. Good, now here is how we write that..."

I am actually stupidly stoked about this. Small units of troops that have, forever, been simply tax, now have a purpose again. And unlike in the ITC, where you have to nominate your engineers pre game, so they can get insta targeted, any infantry unit can Raise the Banners.

If the rest of the secondary objectives are done like this, I am very, very excited


Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Calamity on July 1, 2020, 11:11:31 AM
I know itís great isnít it?  The end of tax, and these units finally have a purpose again!
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Radec on July 2, 2020, 07:00:25 AM
The full core rules have been posted by Games-Workshop and can be found here (https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Lw4o3USx1R8sU7cQ.pdf)

Edit:  We do not condone the use of leaks.  As GW has posted the core rules, I updated your post to reflect that. --- GML

Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on July 2, 2020, 10:53:19 AM
Since GW has posted the core rules, what are people's thoughts?

For me...

Overall, I am quite happy with how this rules set looks and I can't wait to see what the FAQs are going to do for armies to make them work with them.

Edit:  Killersquid pointed something out to me on Facebook that I am not a fan of and hope will get FAQ'd lickity beslubbering split.

Dice can not be modified below a 1.  A weapon's AP modifies the die roll, not the model's armour value.  1+ saves are possible...
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Killersquid on July 2, 2020, 11:47:43 AM
The +1 save thing has been confirmed by gw to ve intended, as that is how it works in age of sigmar.

However, nothing says that terminators are getting 1+ saves yet. The leaked rules for the blade guard vets shields might just belong to them. We just don't know.

Needless to say, I'm excited for the new edition.

For the charging things,  if you have Units which always strike first, they could potentially interrupt your opponents charging units,  which is a bit wild lol. Ynnari anyone?


*edit

Oh my God, 1+ save on custodes with storm shields. Jezzzus.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on July 2, 2020, 12:14:01 PM
The +1 save thing has been confirmed by gw to ve intended, as that is how it works in age of sigmar.
I'm going to wait to see official confirmation in an FAQ.  While that is how things work in AoS, these are still two different games.  You know they are going to have tons of people asking if this is legit lol.

However, nothing says that terminators are getting 1+ saves yet. The leaked rules for the blade guard vets shields might just belong to them. We just don't know.
If that were the case, then their shield would have been named something different.  They'd call it a Blade Shield or something like that.  Labelling it as a Storm Shield means that it will have the same rules across the board.  I think it's going to be clear that this is how they work now.

Oh my God, 1+ save on custodes with storm shields. Jezzzus.

Assuming they receive a huge price jump, I think a safe number would be 25 Sword and Shield Custodians + 2 Shield Captains + a Vexilla for 2000pts.  That's 77 1+ save wounds on Custodians.

Marines need an average of 40 St6+ shots to kill a Custodian Guard.  53 if they are covered by the Vexilla Magnifica.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Killersquid on July 2, 2020, 02:39:13 PM
The wording for how ap and saves work, is exactly the same between the two games. The interaction is the same.

We'll see if the storm shield change happens, and if so, there might be wording for the wargear mentioning you can't do better than a 2+ save. We'll see, but I wouldn't draw conclusions until the rules are officially released, as this is a lot of assumptions.

But,  mortal wounds still kill this stuff dead!
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: magenb on July 2, 2020, 05:49:22 PM
1+ saves are possible...

err so since an unmodified roll of 1 is always a failure.

So I would expect this mechanic to work like

1+ save
No AP weapon: saves on a roll of 2+
-1 AP weapon: saves on a roll of 2+
-2 AP weapon: saves on a roll of 3+

Is that right?
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Killersquid on July 2, 2020, 07:43:34 PM
1+ saves are possible...

err so since an unmodified roll of 1 is always a failure.

So I would expect this mechanic to work like

1+ save
No AP weapon: saves on a roll of 2+
-1 AP weapon: saves on a roll of 2+
-2 AP weapon: saves on a roll of 3+

Is that right?

No, as you modify dice, not the save, and dice can never be reduced to less than a 1.

So, when you roll the dice you would get 1,2,3,4,5,6 as options.

With ap -2, you get on a dice roll the possibility of 1,1,1,2,3,4
 

The worst you can ever roll is a 1, which for a 1+ save is always a success.

Only the unmodified roll of a 1 on the dice (the literal 1 pip side) will be a fail as unmodified 1's always fail.

This is the same as the bastilidon in Age of Sigmar.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on July 2, 2020, 08:38:08 PM
The more I look at that rule, the more on board with it I get.  Terminators and Custodians needed a buff, there is no argument there.  What's the simplest way to buff them without a complete redesign?  Change the Storm Shields.

My only problem is that I don't have enough Thunder Hammer / Storm Shield terminators!  Ah well... I've always wanted an excuse to complete my Deathwing Army!
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Partninja on July 5, 2020, 10:44:01 PM
I've been watching batreps of channels allowed to use the 9th rules now.

Heroic interventions aren't super safe for characters anymore. I like this change.
Title: Re: The Big 40k Announcement
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on July 6, 2020, 01:37:33 AM
I've been watching batreps of channels allowed to use the 9th rules now.

Heroic interventions aren't super safe for characters anymore. I like this change.
That is a change that needed to be implemented.  It never really made sense that you would HI into a unit that charged and couldn't be attacked.