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The Armies of 40k => Chaos Armies (Marines and Daemons) => Topic started by: Killersquid on January 6, 2018, 09:11:48 AM

Title: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: Killersquid on January 6, 2018, 09:11:48 AM
New Year, New Armies and More: Reveals from the New Year?s Open Day - Warhammer (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/01/06/new-year-new-armies-reveals-new-years-open-day)

Looks like a lot of the age of Sigmar kits will be available for thousand sons players too, which I think it's really cool. I'd love to see a vortex beast charge into a squad of space marines!

Looks like too you could play an entire army of 40k beast men as well!
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: Irisado on January 6, 2018, 09:26:55 AM
The Thousand Sons video contains some beautiful artwork.  I hope that at least some of that will find its way into the codex, as that would make it worth buying even if I never get around to playing a game.

The disappointment for me is this whole idea of Tzaangors being in a Thousand Sons codex, along with Mutalith Vortex thing.  The whole idea of Thousand Sons is that they were turned to dust to avoid mutation.  It is, therefore, blasting a massive hole through the lore to introduce further beast type units and some creature which is all about mutation.  I liked the fact that the Thousand Sons didn't have units like this, and by including these beast units, it's effectively undermining the whole character of the army for me.

As for the idea of being able to field an army of Tzeentch Beastmen, that would be okay if it were a separate army.  It should not be possible in a Thousand Sons codex.
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: Wyddr on January 6, 2018, 01:51:04 PM
Quote
The Thousand Sons will be coming back to settle old hatreds thanks to their first ever(!) codex...

First ever? I mean, yeah, I guess...technically . Though Wrath of Magnus had everything a codex involves.

Here's hoping they make Rubrics better, boost their psychic power, and do something about the prohibitive costs of everything. Either make it cheaper or make it better.
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: magenb on January 6, 2018, 04:40:07 PM

Here's hoping they make Rubrics better, boost their psychic power, and do something about the prohibitive costs of everything. Either make it cheaper or make it better.

GW seems to be dropping points rather than adjusting too many thing, that said they are already significantly better than marines so I wouldn't expect them to drop by much.
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: Killersquid on January 6, 2018, 07:50:47 PM
The Thousand Sons video contains some beautiful artwork.  I hope that at least some of that will find its way into the codex, as that would make it worth buying even if I never get around to playing a game.

The disappointment for me is this whole idea of Tzaangors being in a Thousand Sons codex, along with Mutalith Vortex thing.  The whole idea of Thousand Sons is that they were turned to dust to avoid mutation.  It is, therefore, blasting a massive hole through the lore to introduce further beast type units and some creature which is all about mutation.  I liked the fact that the Thousand Sons didn't have units like this, and by including these beast units, it's effectively undermining the whole character of the army for me.

As for the idea of being able to field an army of Tzeentch Beastmen, that would be okay if it were a separate army.  It should not be possible in a Thousand Sons codex.


It's just more options, no need to use that stuff at all if you don't want to use it. Same as the zombies in death guard.

I am excited to see a fleshed out thousand sons psychic tree, as well as what strategems and artifacts they get.  Strategems will make a huge difference on how the army compeates on the table.

The art will be in the book. The art in army books these days is really nice. 40k and AOS.
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: Irisado on January 7, 2018, 06:05:30 AM
It's just more options, no need to use that stuff at all if you don't want to use it. Same as the zombies in death guard.

Plague Zombies in a Deathguard army makes sense and has historical roots.  Mutated units in a Thousand Sons army is a contradiction of the lore.  Yes, I agree that I don't have to use them, but the very fact that such units are an option means that the army is no longer Thousand Sons, it's a Tzeentch army with some Thousand Sons in it.  If the codex were Codex: Txeentch, that would be all well and good, but it's not.
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on January 10, 2018, 12:50:47 PM
They're certainly pushing the beastmen angle in Thousand Son armies.

Vile New Abhuman Strain Spotted – The Regimental Standard (https://regimental-standard.com/2018/01/10/vile-new-abhuman-strain-spotted/)
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: Killersquid on January 20, 2018, 03:22:03 PM
So, there was a game on Games Workshops Twitch page with the Thousand Sons vs Custodian Guard. Some tidbits were learned from that.



Aspiring sorceror a can take psychic powers other than smite

Reroll 1s on the invulnerable saves is out. I didnít catch what new aura we got.

Legion Trait sounded like +6″ spell range (first cast per model).

Dark Matter Crystal (a relic) allows you to remove a unit close to the bearer from the board and redeploy the unit via deep strike.

Dark Hereticus is still in and there are plenty of more spells.

Aspiring Sorcerers can take other spells (unsure if you can take it on top of Smite or if you drop Smite).

Glamour of Tzeentch spell gives one of your unit -1 to hit protection.

Doombolt spell does some damage and reduces target units move.
Temporal Manipulation is another spell but I have no idea of what it does.

Tzaangor Shaman is an elite choice and not HQ. The Shaman can reroll a Psychic test (probably the Elixir from AoS).

Tzaangor Enlightened can take bows and shoot magical arrows that auto-wound on to hit rolls of 6+. Assault 1d3 shots.

Lord of Forbidden Lore Warlord Trait give an additional spell.

There is a stratagem that allows a unit to set up in the webway or something like that. Deep strike. Works on Tzaangors at least.

Veterans of the Long War is still in!

Mutalith Vortex Beast buffs nearby units. Like reroll charge rolls if youíre in the 6″ aura.


Some good bits, and none of this stuff is bad. Curious to see what their psychic tree ends up like. Also, wondering what price changes there will be with the rules changes and updates. All the codex's so far have had some impressive points changes (mostly drops).
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on January 22, 2018, 02:19:42 PM
So we begin with the general whatsits.
Faction Focus: The Thousand Sons - Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/01/22/faction-focus-the-thousand-sonsgw-homepage-post-2/)
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: magenb on January 22, 2018, 04:57:47 PM
While I get they like to break in and poke around in the web way, so it's sort of fluffy, it seems a bit weird they get to use it for DS as it doesn't really feel like a reliable form of transport for them lol.
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: Irisado on January 22, 2018, 05:09:10 PM
The Webway ideas are certainly interesting and very apt for the Thousand Sons.  How effective they are remains to be seen, but at least they seem promising.  I really don't like all these Beastmen and mutation strategems, but it's no surprise that they have been included.
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: Killersquid on January 23, 2018, 07:40:13 AM
I really like the flesh change strategem. It's a very thematic power for the thousand sons, reminds me of the bl book 'A Thousand Sons'.  The fact it costs no renforcment points is a bonus. Not sure how applicable it is, but could be a fun surprise.

Webway one is fantastic for the generally slow and short ranged rubric units. Combibe that with 'warp time'and warp flame Rubrics, and you could have a pretty good time.

Curious to see what else they get. The the psychic tree will be important, as well as any points changes.
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: Wyddr on January 23, 2018, 09:56:15 PM
Yeah, Webway is clutch. I can see using Tzaangors as disposable objective holders/screeners and then dropping rubrics in the backfield to mess things up. Tempting.

Doombolt looks cool except for the casting number. That's really high. Unless there are bonuses to cast we don't know about yet, that won't see a lot of play. That was the problem with the index set of tzeentch powers. A target number higher than 8 needs to be a pretty stupendous power.
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: Killersquid on January 24, 2018, 05:15:59 PM
I feel there will be strategems and traits which will help facilitate casting. Sounds like a thing they'd have.

I'm a big fan of the Tzaangors, I think they will be a good unit for just holding ground and such. I'm excited about the Enlightened with bows too. Apparently hit rolls of 6 auto-wound, which could be really good.

So far, basic power armoured models in every marine faction are pretty lack-luster compared to other options (besides maybe Grey Knights), so I hope they find a way to make Thousand Sons stand out.

But, their two biggest deficits right now are their lack of mobility, and units for screening/holding ground, and this book gives them options to mitigate both.

Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: Wyddr on January 25, 2018, 07:29:18 PM
A lot of the problems with MEQs lies in cost to field. I'd love to drop 9 rubrics in a squad, but at a price tag north of 250 points to do that, it just isn't worth it.
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on January 26, 2018, 11:11:50 AM
Here is some the new stuff.
New Units in Codex: Thousand Sons - Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/01/26/new-units-codex-thousand-sonsgw-homepage-post-2/)
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: Irisado on January 26, 2018, 11:27:45 AM
That was, sadly, a very uninspiring read.  I was hoping that GW would release some more detailed information about the actual Thousand Sons, rather than Tzaangors.  As much as I don't like the Tzaangors at all, some of their abilities may be useful, but there's nothing about them which I find interesting.
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: Wyddr on January 26, 2018, 12:04:35 PM
I don't necessarily object to Tzaangors, but I'm not about to go out and buy up a ton of them if the core units--the sorcerers and rubrics--aren't cool.

Which they've currently provided very little info on, yeah.
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: Killersquid on January 27, 2018, 01:21:44 PM
Well, it's on pre-order. The collectors edition looks super rad, if I played thousand sons, I'd pick up one of those for sure. I always buy the limited edition books for the factions I play :-)

Sorcerous Power and Unwavering Vigilance - Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/01/27/sorcerous-power-unwavering-vigilance/)
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: Irisado on January 28, 2018, 08:14:47 AM
Collectors edition codices are too expensive for what they are in my opinion, and this one is no exception.  Besides, I prefer the artwork of the standard Thousand Sons codex.  I'll order mine once it has actually been released.
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: Killersquid on January 28, 2018, 09:02:45 AM
Collectors edition codices are too expensive for what they are in my opinion, and this one is no exception.  Besides, I prefer the artwork of the standard Thousand Sons codex.  I'll order mine once it has actually been released.

That's sort of the point.

They are expensive, not for any practical reason, but because you want to show off. I love going to events with my fancy codex, while the plebs have their standard ones  ;D

But to each their own. Both covers look balling.
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on January 30, 2018, 11:51:50 AM
The Rubric Marines finally get a mention.
Eddie, Agent of Change - Part 1: Rubric Marines - Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/01/30/eddie-agent-of-change-part-1-rubric-marinesgw-homepage-post-4/)
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: Irisado on January 30, 2018, 01:18:40 PM
That's a much more useful article.  The psychic powers being highlighted look quite handy and there are some tactical ideas, particularly the section on shenanigans which look like fun.  The elephant in the room remains the cost though, which the author implies is going to remain high, so it very much depends on how high this actually turns out to be.
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: Killersquid on January 30, 2018, 01:25:18 PM
I'm going to guess the price will probably not change too much from the chaos marine codex. Hopefully,the flamer drops in points though.
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on February 1, 2018, 11:49:42 AM
Hey, Tzaangor again as who can get enough of these guys.
Eddie, Agent of Change - Part 2: Tzaangor - Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/02/01/eddie-agent-change-part-2-tzaangorgw-homepage-post-4/)
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: Irisado on February 1, 2018, 01:26:20 PM
The final paragraph sums up my concerns better than I could myself.  I fear that, for Thousand Sons to be effective, it's going to be necessary to field Tzaangors, otherwise the army is likely to suffer from similar problems to those which have afflicted it over the course of previous recent editions.  This is disappointing, but unsurprising.  I will stick to my plan of building a pure Thousand Sons army though.
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: Wyddr on February 1, 2018, 09:42:06 PM
Yup. Thousand Sons aren't going to work on their own.

Then again, they never did anyway, so that's not new.
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: Killersquid on February 1, 2018, 11:30:04 PM
Thousand sons have always been a small elite army, and those sorts of forces can be hard to play. I do appreciate the addition of tzaangors to fill some gaps in the list. If you don't like those, you can easily take a daemons detachment, or summon deamons to get other units to fill the same role.

Screens, tarpits and cheap scoring units.

I think the scarab terminators could be very scary, and deepstriking rubrics with flamers combined with a sorcerer casting wartime can be deadly.

I wonder if they'll get access to predators. Two or three autocannon/lascannons predators and a big unit of tzaangors or horrors would be a very effective support element to a rubric focused force. Some screens and ranged anti-tank. I could see that working well. 
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: Irisado on February 2, 2018, 04:51:11 AM
While I agree that small elite armies are supposed to be challenging to play well, if you look at other armies which would fit that description, notably the three other most specialised Chaos Legions (World Eaters, Emperor's Children, and Death Guard), they, to the best of my knowledge, do not have to be propped up by a Beastmen equivalent to work properly.  This is my gripe.

I do agree that taking Tzeentch Daemons is an alternative way of dealing with this and is one which I am much more attracted to.  Again though, this is still indicative of it being overly difficult to field Thousand Sons as a stand alone army, which continues to suggest a fundamental problem with the design of the army.
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: Killersquid on February 2, 2018, 07:26:01 AM
Out of the armies you mentioned, no one plays world eaters or Emperors children. Khorne beserkers are taken as part of alpha legion, as they can get turn 1 charges. Otherwise, chaos armies are built mostly with cultists. I've not seen basic chaos marines on tables, or noise marines.

Death guard armies are just plauge zombies and warmachines. Again, no one takes anything in power armour besides heros.

It's just the fact that power armour models are not resilient enough for their cost, and die too easily.

Primaris marines are more along the lines of how marines sound be stat-wise, but they lack affordable transports.

The other big reason for screens, is that so many armies can deepstrike and charge turn 1, and you need a buffer from them charging and wipeing out your valuable units, and to also fill space to limit where deep-striking units can go.

It's hard to build a list without units to either 1) block turn 1 charges, or ,2) fill space to push back the 9" deployment for deep-striking units. Units which fulfil this role need to be expendible, and fairly cheap.

Now, I do see a lot of potential in rubric thousand sons being very competitive on the table. You just need to take support for the thousand sons. It's also 100% in character for chaos warlords to bring expendible chaff to soak bullets for them :-), and some ranged support from some sort of battle tank.

All you'd need is one squad of something just to keep your opponents honest, and it'd help keep you away from 'gotcha' moments. I know you hate the tzaangors (for whatever reason), but there are other options. Cultists, horrors come to mind. Even chaos spawn can work in a pinch.



Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: Irisado on February 3, 2018, 06:35:14 AM
It's not possible to claim that nobody plays an army.  To make such a claim would require a sample size that none of us on this forum has access to.  I prefer an evidence-based approach to making claims about who plays what, so the argument that you're making is essentially that nobody who you know of plays World Eaters and Emperor's Children.

I would find the current state of the game that you've outlined to be very depressing were it to be widely replicated across gaming communities.  Khorne Berzerkers don't have any business teaming up with Alpha Legion in the lore, and Chaos armies relying so heavily on Cultists might be okay for certain types of Chaos army, but for this to be the case across the board is concerning.  Death Guard and Plague Zombies at least makes sense, but it should not be at the expense of the actual Plague Marines.

If turn one charges are the way in which the game is played now and cheaper screening units of expendable chaff are the only way small elite armies like Thousand Sons can survive such attacks, then there is a massive issue with the rules mechanics and overall game balance in my opinion.

As for hating Tzaangors, that's way too strong, I just don't like them in a Thousand Sons codex or context.  As I've explained previously, they don't fit the narrative of the Thousand Sons at all and no amount of shoehorning by GW is going to be able to gloss over this issue.  I absolutely take your point that other units can be used in place of Tzaangors to fulfil a similar role, and it would be Tzeentch Horrors for me, since at least this can be explained logically, but being essentially cajoled into going down that route because of the current way in which the game plays seems an unsatisfactory state of affairs to me.
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: Wyddr on February 3, 2018, 02:13:42 PM
Irisado, Killersquid is right from a competitive and strategic perspective. Very few people (better?) play Emperor's Children and Berzerkers because power armored troops are just not good enough for the cost. This is a side-effect of the move from all-or-nothing AP to armor modifiers.

He is also right that speed-bump units are basically essential in order to prevent nasty, nasty first turn strikes against key units. This is a side-effect of the deletion of the scatter die and the advent of guaranteed first turn reserves.

These comprise the major problems the edition is dealing with (plus one more: the neutering of blast weapons) that have made horde armies fantastic and elite armies really, really hard to play.

Tzaangors are an attempt by GW to make Ksons more playable (while *also* selling more models). Personally, I would prefer that they simply make elite armies *more elite* (like Custodes) without bumping their per-model cost by much. That strikes me as a delicate beast, however, so I won't hold my breath for them to get that balance right.
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: Irisado on February 3, 2018, 03:42:16 PM
I'm sure that he is right from a competitive perspective, but as you will no doubt recall, I rarely look at the game from that perspective alone :).  That's why I made the points which I did.  Incidentally, very few is much better, yes ;).

Like you, I'd rather that the balance were sorted out to address issues such as this that small elite armies, such as Thousand Sons face, in lieu of the decision that has been taken to add horde units to the codex as cannon fodder.  I agree that achieving this balance has always been difficult, but the rules mechanics seem to have made things more difficult for the Thousands than they were before, at least based on the material that GW has posted thus far.  The evidence, as always, will have to wait for in game experience.

I'm just disappointed because even in the sort of non-competitive games that I play, I can't see a way around the deep strike first turn attacks without using some kind of screening cannon fodder.  This is not the way I was intending to play this army.
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: Killersquid on February 4, 2018, 08:59:10 AM
There are other ways to mitigate the first turn charges by other means,than using hordes.

Just gotta play with how the deepstrike rules work. Units have to be deployed over 9" away from your units, so by using other units to create 9" no go zones can protect your army.

Three single chaos spawn,or a couple of rhinos will be able to do the same thing. Just place them within 18" of eachother and your army core, and no enemy models can deploy anywhere nearby. At the very worst, they'll kill a chaos spawn.

This helps against folks who want to drop and rapid-fire, as well as drop and charge. The reason hordes are preferable, is that they last longer, and can do the job with less units.

Doesn't help against folks who can just run across the table conventionally, but as long as you don't deploy too far forward, you'll just shoot amphetamine parrot dead.

Thousand Sons don't have wealth of firepower, but their shooting is potent, and are very durable to both high ap, and small arms fire. 

If you get in rapid fire range, those inferno bolts will tear things apart.


Also, I have a copy of the book, if you folks have any questions. The art is pretty great in it!
Title: Re: Thousand sons next ish
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on February 5, 2018, 03:05:36 PM
Always time for a puff piece on the boss
Eddie, Agent of Change - Part 3: Magnus - Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/02/05/eddie-agent-of-change-part-3-magnusgw-homepage-post-4/)