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The Armies of 40k => Imperial Forces => Topic started by: Calamity on June 4, 2017, 06:29:44 AM

Title: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Calamity on June 4, 2017, 06:29:44 AM
I don't know if anyone here saw any of the IG leaks but in my opinion we're going to be in a strong place at the start of 8th edition.  8)

I'll refrain from mentioning specific leaks but the general theme is that a lot of units which would never seen the light of day before are going to see a lot more action. 

There's some changes I wasn't keen on but these are far outweighed by the positive.  We're going to be fine.  :D
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Talon Undecided on June 4, 2017, 09:39:08 AM
It's pulling some of us out of retirement, that's for sure! My store has the indices on preview, and it warms the cockles of my heart that we may be rewarded for returning to a very 3rd Edition playstyle.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Killersquid on June 4, 2017, 09:40:36 AM
The deathstrike missile looks like a hilarious weapon to use.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Calamity on June 4, 2017, 10:59:28 AM
Yeah it all looks great doesn't it!  :D

I like how storm troopers are looking these days, plus tanks are now viable.  And it's kind of funny how commissars now help prevent you removing moraless models.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Wyddr on June 4, 2017, 09:21:19 PM
Guard infantry got better, overall. Conscripts look pretty good if you include a commissar and a priest. Stormtroopers got more reliable, etc.

I think ratlings look useable, but they don't do enough damage to make them especially good at killing characters. This is true for all snipers, though.

Ogryns are disappointing, frankly. Really wanted to like them, but I don't.

The tanks look a lot tougher, but I'm not convinced their firepower justifies their cost in most cases. The Hellhound looks good, the Hydra looks awful, etc.

The thing that came out best is probably the Taurox. Looks better than the Chimera at this point.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on June 4, 2017, 10:37:11 PM
I think ratlings look useable, but they don't do enough damage
I don't know about that.  The chances for them to kick out Mortal Wounds in addition to their regular is pretty damn spiffy.  Hell, that's what convinced me to pick up Scouts for my Dark Angels.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Calamity on June 5, 2017, 06:21:38 AM
Ratlings can now single out characters and can dish out mortal wounds to boot.  That's going to be incredibly useful.

Also there's already talk that deepstriking plasma scions are going to define the meta game.  Dare I dream that we could be heading back to the heydays of 5th?
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Wyddr on June 5, 2017, 06:29:01 AM
Run the numbers, guys. Most characters are sporting 4+ wounds, so:

10 ratlings = 6 hits = 3 wounds + 1 mortal = (assuming a decent save) = 2 wounds done.

A 5 or 6-wound character won't go down for three turns unless you're lucky. And that's with a full squad of the little guys. Annoying, sure, but any character with a few defensive boosts is going to get in combat/do what he needs to before you gun him down.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Calamity on June 5, 2017, 06:50:24 AM
Well to that I say that's what orders are for.  They're automatic now.  Give them those rerolls.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Wyddr on June 5, 2017, 07:07:54 AM
Okay, let's: 10 shots, 6 hits, re-roll 2 (optimistically) = 7 hit-ish and...the math stays basically the same. You boost your odds only a negligible amount.

You're in the exact same situation unless you happen to luck out on more 6s.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Calamity on June 5, 2017, 07:21:27 AM
Spoil sport.  :P

Well, my suggestion then is that sniper rifles need 2 damage.  Regular damage doesn't carry over so it's not too broken.  But that's the advantage of having a living rulebook.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Wyddr on June 5, 2017, 08:28:18 AM
I think sniper rifles should do 1d3 damage, myself. It seems silly that you'd need 30 snipers to kill one boss-guy.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Killersquid on June 5, 2017, 10:40:26 AM
Snipers shouldn't be too good, or no one will be able to take characters. I think damage 1 is fine for them. Especially if there is a chance for mortal wounds.

Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Wyddr on June 5, 2017, 10:45:31 AM
Snipers shouldn't be too good, or no one will be able to take characters. I think damage 1 is fine for them. Especially if there is a chance for mortal wounds.

Granted, but if snipers only have 1 ostensible job and they aren't very good at that job, people aren't going to take many of them at all.

Like, seriously, if I need something to kill a character, I'd probably be better off using conventional weapons to blow away the unit or two standing between me and the character than paying points (and slots) for a crap ton of "specialists" who can't actually fulfill their specialty with any reasonable regularity.

Why use an elite slot for ratlings when you can use a Scions squad to drop right next to a character and blow him away with plasma guns? Granted, the ratlings can target the character more easily, but at an opportune moment you can get the Scions to do the job in one shot. And even if they don't get the opportunity, you can actually get the scions to do other things that are also useful. Pinging a mortal wound every six wounds in a world where everything has a billion wounds is not that amazing.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Killersquid on June 5, 2017, 11:20:42 AM
My main concern about making snipers better, is that they don't cost a lot of points. A 5 man squad of ratlings is less then 50pts. That they can do mortal wounds and pick out characters at that points cost is fantastic.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Wyddr on June 5, 2017, 11:35:37 AM
My main concern about making snipers better, is that they don't cost a lot of points. A 5 man squad of ratlings is less then 50pts. That they can do mortal wounds and pick out characters at that points cost is fantastic.

I'll agree that they are fairly pointed for their abilities. My point is that their abilities are not all that spectacular. They are about 50 points worth of spectacular.

I'm just tired of snipers who suck, is all.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Killersquid on June 5, 2017, 11:43:14 AM
I don't think a unit needs to one hit kill everything to be good. If ratlings do one or two wounds to any character, the player will have to be more cautious with it.

Also, mortal wounds means that these guys are fantastic for plinking the last wounds or two off of monsters and vehicles.

Being less then 100pts for 10 of them, these would be an auto include if I played guard.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Wyddr on June 5, 2017, 12:18:55 PM
I don't think a unit needs to one hit kill everything to be good. If ratlings do one or two wounds to any character, the player will have to be more cautious with it.

Also, mortal wounds means that these guys are fantastic for plinking the last wounds or two off of monsters and vehicles.

Being less then 100pts for 10 of them, these would be an auto include if I played guard.

I'm not really asking for 1-hit kills. I'm just asking for a team of 5 snipers to have a plausible chance of taking out a character (say, 50/50) in 2 turns of shooting or less. If you aren't going to give them any AP or much Str, you could *at least* let them do a consistent amount of damage. The slot-machine style of play here turns me off a lot, since I never seem to roll freaking 6s when they would be useful.

To pivot the discussion though: How about them Wyverns, eh? At least *some* anti-infantry blasts have kept their teeth. (also a shout-out to Manticores).

I'm thinking that Battlecannons/Demolishers/Basilisks will be of greater use against large models than against infantry. This seems ass-backwards to me, but that's what the numbers seems to say. Rather take the odds of doing 2-6 wounds to a vehicle than kill 2 infantry, you know? 

Edit: I was going through the numbers last night. It really shouldn't be very hard to get a full battalion formation in a list. I guess whether you do or not depends on how much you like a ton of command points.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Talon Undecided on June 7, 2017, 04:27:47 AM
The Ratlings do another job in the game - they occupy the midfield from turn 1 so that enemy units that attempt to arrive within 9" of the main gunline has to contend with them there.

Same thing for Scout Sentinels, imo. But I've had a soft spot for counter-infiltrating Ratlings since 3rd Ed.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Wyddr on June 7, 2017, 06:03:39 AM
That's a good point and I've used Ratlings (and other infiltrators) the same way before. They're so cheap, it makes them particularly good at it.

Just wish they had better guns, is all.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Calamity on June 7, 2017, 01:26:36 PM
I really think sniper rifles need D3 damage.  Especially with zero AP, mortal wounds or not.  But this aside, ratlings are looking pretty sweet now.  We just need a plastic kit with a leader model and a vox caster and we're in!  ;D

EDIT:

It's closest equivalent in AoS, the hochland long rifle, does 2 damage.  How about that as a compromise?
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Wyddr on June 7, 2017, 02:06:31 PM
2 damage is actually better than 1d3 damage *most* of the time. If you consistently do 2 damage over a long period of time and compare it to doing 1d3 damage, the 2s will net you about 25% more wounds done.

It is for this reason that Autocannons may still be worth it and that I'll be firing my plasma on overcharge whenever possible. It is also the reason why Bullgryns with Mauls and slabshields sound like great counter-charge units.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Killersquid on June 7, 2017, 03:58:33 PM
I think leman Russes have a new lease on life. Super tough. I'd take them with 3 heavy flamers and burn the amphetamine parrot out of things and then battle Cannon something else.

The fact you can fire different weapons at different targets is really sweet.

Earthshaker cannons look amazing, as do the manticore.

Bullgrins look like a lot of fun too.

Even rough riders look like they would be fun to use and pretty amazing.

I'd definitely want to run a huge screen of conscripts with a commissar nearby 'encuraging' them
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Calamity on June 7, 2017, 05:53:53 PM
@ Wyddr

D3 it is then!  A possible 3 wounds and 1 mortal wound from one rifle though...is that too much?  :-\

@ Killersquid

Yes it's all great isn't it!  Though I hear that the battle Cannon struggles to reliably inflict damage.  But at least the tanks are a serious contender now.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Killersquid on June 7, 2017, 06:16:28 PM
@ Wyddr

D3 it is then!  A possible 3 wounds and 1 mortal wound from one rifle though...is that too much?  :-\

Not if the models are triple the price lol. Ratlings are great for the price (dirt cheap). Any better their guns get, means the models should be more valuable too.


Yes it's all great isn't it!  Though I hear that the battle Cannon struggles to reliably inflict damage.  But at least the tanks are a serious contender now.

Has a random number of hits, but those hits hit hard, great for targeting multi-wound models. And when it also has 3d6 heavy flamer hits, it's going to be all aboard to the pain train.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Wyddr on June 7, 2017, 07:05:17 PM
Triple Heavy Flamers looks nice. The Battlecannon? Meh. At that modest BS, you just aren't going to connect that often, and 1d3 dmg, while nice, isn't a game changer. When we factor in the new toughness chart, the whole affair seems mediocre.

The Earthshaker is a bit better and has the distinction of being cheaper and stronger. I'll need to test it out a bit, but again you're only looking at 2-3 dead infantry a volley or 3-4 wounds done to a vehicle/monster. Meh.

If you're facing crisis suits/termies/bikes or other mid-range multiwound models, that will be handy, but it won't be great elsewhere. Blast weapons have weirdly become pretty bad against most infantry.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Calamity on June 8, 2017, 06:20:59 AM
If 40k had AoS's spill over damage mechanic then the new blast weapons would be pretty good against hordes.  But since excess damage other than mortal wounds doesn't carry over, that damage is wasted on 1 wound models.

Lets say you manage to score three hits on a unit of space marines (which statistically means that you got lucky and rolled a 6), those will likely turn into three wounds, but with it's AP, you're likely to only kill two.  There's no point rolling for damage either.

I'm reluctant to criticize them because apparently they play tested the hell out of it but I think some units (the battle cannon Russ for example) need a little work.  But the good news is, the mechanics are sound.  They just need tweaking.  Before it was hopeless.

And what I always try to keep in the back of my mind is, the days of simply deleting units via shooting are over.  They had to stop it.  So I don't want to make a battle cannon too dangerous.  Especially since the Russ can happily shoot all of it's other weapons too.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Wyddr on June 8, 2017, 08:29:42 AM
I can see what you're saying, but on the other hand, I'm a guy who has played armies that "delete units via shooting" as their exclusive tactical option (Imperial Guard, Tau, Thousand Sons), and have done so for years and years. You'll pardon me if I'm a little grouchy that now I need to figure out how to get Tau to weather assault just so the Dark Eldar feel better about themselves.

I'm sure it will work out in the end, but it's all looking like a lot of my models are getting shelved just because they can no longer do the job assigned.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Calamity on June 8, 2017, 10:11:04 AM
Well if it's any consolation, the new system means that things can be fixed quickly.  I hear Tau are still pretty deadly though.

If the battle cannon took a leaf out of the Earthshakers book and picked the highest result out of two 2D6 then maybe that would be acceptable.

Also, the Vanquisher is a bit mediocre too.  And weirdly, the Genestealer cults have a better one, with access to better smoke launchers too!  :o 

Their one has higher strength.  Maybe they're using their connections to siphon off the best shells for themselves.

I would take the cultist statline for the Vank, but it's best for the IG smoke launchers rule to be used.  Get onto it GW!
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Wyddr on June 8, 2017, 11:33:48 AM
Also, the Vanquisher is a bit mediocre too.  And weirdly, the Genestealer cults have a better one, with access to better smoke launchers too!  :o 

Yeah, the Vanquisher is really pretty bad at the moment. I certainly wouldn't take one.

My takes on the Leman Russ variants at the moment:

-The Punisher is actually totally fine. It lost the ability to move and shoot everything without penalty, but it's only a scant few points more expensive and basically just as effective as it ever was. It won't be glancing Rhinos to death anymore, but no huge loss there.

-The Demolisher is pretty bad now, simply because the main gun is, on balance, no stronger than the Battlecannon (double the damage except half the shots at 1/3 the range) except in the rare instances you're shooting at more than 5 T5 multiwound models. Which, sure, that might happen sometimes, but often?

-The Executioner (with Plasma sponsons) is now only usable if you make it a tank commander and fire on Overcharge all the time (while using the re-roll order). Yes, it will probably still explode, but at least it can kick out a decent amount of damage before it does.

-The Exterminator is a cheaper, more reliable, but less potent form of the Executioner, basically.

-The LRBT, stock, is okay, but as mentioned the Battle Cannon is fairly "meh." It isn't terrible, but I think you might be better off with a Basilisk. Depends on how useful you feel the sponsons would be. I can see driving one around as a Heavy Flamer caddy, I guess.

-The Eradicator is pretty terrible now. Ignoring cover at it's AP is really not that much better than the Battlecannon in any way, except lower strength and shorter range. 
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Calamity on June 8, 2017, 11:42:38 AM
I agree, all around.  I'll have to wait until I get the book but I think I'll be returning to the forge.

Oh, and it turns out Wyrdvane Pyskers are still crap.  And they aren't in the IG list anymore either, along with the telepath and the primarus.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Wyddr on June 8, 2017, 12:28:06 PM
I agree, all around.  I'll have to wait until I get the book but I think I'll be returning to the forge.

Oh, and it turns out Wyrdvane Pyskers are still crap.  And they aren't in the IG list anymore either, along with the telepath and the primarus.

Oh, man the Astropath is pure gold. A psyker for that cheap? He can't cast Smite worth a damn, but for the price it's a damned bargain. He still gets access to one of the other powers and can still attempt to deny enemy powers AND he can deny cover saves. Too cheap *not* to take!
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Lt_PliskinAJ on June 8, 2017, 05:01:41 PM
I know I plan on jumping back into 40k with IG. I have I think 7+ sentinels (They have been in a box for years) ready to use again and they just were rarely used because I would rather have Helhound or Valks in my force.

From the leaks I couldn't tell but did they get rid of the top hatch rule of the Chimera? Either way I have played essentially the same army of IG now for 3 editions. Time for a bit of change.

Loosing the template is a bit hit for me as I loved killing 70+% of a marine squad with a well placed demo charge or battle tank round but while I loved it I could see my opponents die inside and they put up their whole squad. Likewise I would have people spend forever spreading out their squads to a maximum in an attempt to weather the storm of pie plates making me wish I was watching paint dry.

With the new rules for moving and shooting I think bolter boats might be a thing again. Heck artillery basically became a burst fire HK missile so that will be different.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Wyddr on June 8, 2017, 05:34:41 PM
Nothing that I've seen allows shooting out Chimera hatches, no. A bit of a loss, but not the end of the world. Biggest issue is Chimeras cost 50% more.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run) on June 8, 2017, 07:14:19 PM
If 40k had AoS's spill over damage mechanic then the new blast weapons would be pretty good against hordes.  But since excess damage other than mortal wounds doesn't carry over, that damage is wasted on 1 wound models.


While that is true, there are a few horde units that really benefit ( :o) from a battle cannon's attention.

For example, razorwing flocks - A max sized flock is looking at 32 wounds over 8 models.

Or a Ripper swarm... 27 wounds over 9 models.

Your Battle cannon will just about erase either of those squads, and the other weapons on the vehicles are gonna be able to shoot at whatever they want to and not waste shoots too.

These weapons have different targets now. If they are worthwile or not is still yet to be seen.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: Wyddr on June 8, 2017, 08:06:35 PM
Ultimately that becomes a matter of metagame. If multiwound small models become commonplace, then the Battlecannon and Demolisher are back in. We'll see if it happens, though. Rippers/Nurglings/Razorwings/Scarabs are a bit of a niche.
Title: Re: The Imperial Guard in 8th
Post by: faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run) on June 8, 2017, 08:35:51 PM
I know a considerable number of DE players are looking at razor-wing flocks. They are quite cheap, and can easily be used to act as a screen unit for a umber of things.

That is what I think most of these swarm units will be used for - screening units. Area denial. Quick charges to tie up shooting units. Smite absorbers.

Being able to look at a unit of that and erase it will really mess with an opponents plans.

It will be very interesting to see what meta develops.