Topic: :o

[Marune]

Hi there,

When reading through the tactics suggested for DE armies to deal with opponents, I am always awed and shocked at how easily armies are altered to suit the tactics.

Let's face it, if I followed the suggestions, I would need 10.000 points of DE to crank out an army of 1500-2000 points for each and every type of opponent. I just need too many reserves and alternates to be able to create an army that fields the troops needed specifically for this battle and tactic!!

Why would I buy 3 (!!) Ravagers?? Just for the situation I need 3 instead of 1? I am really going to get me a squad of Mandrakes for the rare occasions these shadow boys might (not even surely) confuse my opponent? Ok, I have to hand it to the critics, you will want more then one Raider (if you choose such an army!!)

The time and money involved will be a tad over the top if I go for the 'can field all varieties' army.
I understand some 'extras' will be bought in time, as the need really arises and you are 'done' with your army, but just love to keep building (a bit more, not all the way to 10.000 points).

A good general, any general, works with what he's got and surely doesn't have the option to taylor make the army each and every time?

So, what do you think? Heretical thoughts or finally some reason for the more locally organized Kabals?

Marune

[Trunkhead]

the best thing to do is before you start buying models, deciede what type of general you are.  If you like to assualt you need lots of raiders, wyches, and reavers.  if you like to counter assualt, you need less raiders, LOTS of warriors, wyches etc etc.
because of the versatility of a warrrior squad, they should be able to fill the roll of any other type of troop in your army.  They can be a heavy weapons squad (a squad of 10 w/ 2 darklances costs 5pts less than a ravager), an assualt squad (mounted on a raider) or anything else you want them to be - you just have to be smart with them.
So again, before you start buying models, deciede what type of general you are.  If you still can't deciede, get more warriors ( you can generally buy the sprues that come in the starter box, newbies usually dont' want them and sell them cheap or even give them away)

[dark_wind]

or if you are not sure about what kind of general you are...simply buy a 'basic' force to start out with and test to see what ya like!!

[DE Player 2]

Although I understand your point, and agree with it to a certain extent, 10k for all varieties of 2k battles would require you to have 5 different armies, with no overlap between any of them.  That might be a little extreme.

What the others have said about starting with a basic Warrior force, adding some Raiders, and maybe an HQ would get you started.

A tooled up Archon / Incubi / Raider will set you back several hundred points, but you'll probably be able to use it in most of your games.

Grabbing 40 - 60 Warriors with a mixture of weapons plus a couple more Raiders should set you up with most of your troops slots.

Once you have these, the "no-brainer" models will be bought.  You should have spent 50 - 60% of your points.  Then you'll want to pick some elites, probably based on your style.  The same thing will happen with Fast movers and Heavies.

Once you get a group of Scourges, a couple of Talos's, and maybe a pair of Ravagers, you've got 90+% of your battles covered.

If anything, DE have fewer choices than other armies, so your model variety is kept to a minimum.  No need for Rhino's AND Land Raiders AND Whirlwinds AND Predators AND...  Well, you get the picture.

I'd be surprised if you really needed more than 3.5 - 4k models for any 2k battle you chose to fight.  On the other hand, I'd be interested to see your army lists for various battles to see if 10k is a more accurate number...

[Marune]

Granted, the HQ is a valid choice, but even then one can have a wide variety of units (Incubi with or without assault weapons, hardly ever one of each, but two of the same) If you want this to look good, paint 'em up nicely, you have a nice array of incubi that you might not always use if you do the sizing game for eacht fight. Same goes for warriors if you want to have them stand out from the regular grunts (they are the better ones after all), they will not be just warriors but a specially painted unit.

So, even the no brainers can give you some variety (remember, we are talking about looks too, not just performance, so 'just' taking warriors doesn't count, gotta be devoted to what kind and where)

After the no brainers, your list diversifies quite fast. Though I agree 10k points was over the top, I still feel 50% if for flexibility's sake only and not because you truly like it. This only gets worse if you decide the HQ could either be Incubi or warriors. I favour 80 to 90% to be 'steady' and always. Make tactics for that.

I fully agree that you need to decide what it is you like (I for one am not a Talos man, no matter how useful it is) and I have done so. This step is quite normal. My point was that the various formums or solutions do not take this simple thing into account and just collect away.

Remember, Eldar are pirates. I never saw any pirate fighting with one vessel, but having an entire fleet back at anchor just so he can choose another vessel each time. If you have a frigate, good show, but tough against the smaller ones. Have a sloop? Good against the smaller ship (can ovetake 'em) but adjust against the galleons. I feel this elelement is not highlighted enough in DE tactics and culture. The need to adjust simply because....that's all your force is and has to offer. unlike the Tau or IG or SM, DE are a fragmented force that does not stand together....at least a lot less then the others do.

I have appreciation and like a lot the fact that the eternal 'DE are weak' myth is swept away by a good number of articles on the Eldar on line site and formums though. Good show!

Marune

[Invidious]

In stark contrast I am a Talos man.  I love them.  I love the models.  and i love what they have the ability to do on the battlefield.  However, I know several people who insist that they suck.  so this is a major difference of opinion, so our armies are always different.  

I have decided to gear my Kabal twards what the DE excell at: SPEED and FIREPOWER.  I think reavers are close to gods right now, yet a few months ago i never took any.  My opinion shifts regularly about what makes my army formidable, and this is a good thing.  This uncertainty about my army always keeps my opponents guessing at what I will do next.  This can be a pretty good advantage against armies like Space Marines that pretty much take the same thing every game.  

DE can be just about anything you want them to be.  They can be a firepower army, a close combat army, a speed army,  or any kind of a combo of those you can think of.  They can NOT be an armored army, dont even try.  

The variety of models is to keep people guessing.  Say you nail someone with a talos or two in a game and slaughter him mercilessly.  The next game dont take a Talos if you can, your opponet will probably remember his humiliating defeat and take some "anti-talos" weapons.  If you take a squad of scourges or something than that basically wastes lots of those points he just spent tooling up his Devs with Lascannons.  Dont take the same army twice if you can aviod it.  Variety is the spice of life.

Of course you will undoubtedly find something that you think "This thing is Godlike!"  and want to take tons of it.  Go ahead.  find something you like and gear your army twards it, but dont discount variety.  

Like it or not your army will be molded by the armies you face.  If you face a close combat army like Tyranids then you will find yourself gearing up for a shooting war.  Example: I never face Chaos.  No one plays them (that I know) so i have rarely fought them.  So my army is not geared to counter  chaos things.  Deamons can be somewhat of a problem for me (but arent they for everyone?).  Fortunately Chaos are a lot like Space Marines, so i still do ok against them.

good luck and good hunting

Wasp-58

[Harle]

i fing the best DE army i have eber played with is my basic one.  a Archon with everything two raiders with 10 warriors, a ravager with 10 warriors and two talos

if you have extra point go for mandrakes and wyches

[Marune]

 

A ravager with warriors on board?? Can't only Raiders move da troops?

Wasp-58. I agree the experiences will shape your army and that, to me, is the source of flexibility I will incorporate.

Can't argue with the idea you should alter a winning army in anticipation of your opponent gearing up to meet the one you used previously. I guess that does make for a very good reason to add more points (provided you like the models, still no Talos man!).

In WH40K, I only have Dark eldar nd some 'nids, but with the release of the new Chaos space Marines coming, I am tempted to starting some Chaos. Love the models!

Marune

[Harle]

thw wariors were separate, i guess i worded it wrong, sorry i meant a ravger and 10 wariiors

[Invidious]

they are releasing new chaos modles?  what a bummer.  I hope they dont screw with Noise Marines, they are like the coolest model in the game.  The idea of making someones innards explode by means of an electric guitar is about the best thing GW ever came up with.

Wasp-58