Topic: Dark Eldar Revisions #9 Scourges

[allconsuminghat]

And everything that can have a bright lance pays for the mobility.  Would you pay an extra ten points per dark lance so that they can move and shoot their dark lances?

Yes, actually yes I would.

[Farceseer Syranaul]

Okay then.  Add ten points to all dark lance weapon upgrades, and make it an assault weapon.  That wasn't so hard, all it took was a little help from your Craftworld cousins.

[allconsuminghat]

Yeah, great but thats never going to happen though, they've just finished making bright lances heavy weapons, they're not just going to go out and make dark lances assault weapons now, also, it'd only raise the points of the lances on scourges and warriors, otherwise its just adding points for no gain. Eldar vehices don't pay exta points for their ability to move and shoot heavy weapons, every vehicle can. And all the heavy weapon costs are going down now anyway.

[Farceseer Syranaul]

Who's they?  I thought we were talking about a 40kO revision.  I'm just trying to keep it balanced. 

[allconsuminghat]

Well, we were going to submit this to GW to give them some ideas about what the dark eldar need in our next update, its not just like the EO Harlequin "revision".

[Toad_Raider]

Hell, I would be happy with the current cost of Dark Lances on Scourges if they were assault.  Last thing they need is a furrther price hike however 

[Khira'lyth]

I'm all for a new Scourge-Only weapon.  But make it nice.  Here's my idea (generally speaking)
Give them an uber-splinter Cannon type weapon for anti-troop, and make it have an underslung Haywire Grenade Launcher for vehicles (that way it's *just* against vehicles and not a lascannon anti-MEQ squad).

For example....

Scourge Cannon (crappy name, I know, I know...)
This weapon is the trademark of the Scourges.  Essentially an upgraded Splinter Cannon, it has greatly increased strength and armor penetration capabilities.  Stabilizers built in to the Scourges' armor allows them to weild this otherwise bulky weapon as easily as its smaller cousin.
In addition, the SC (heh.. that'd get confusing...) comes equipped with an underslung Haywire Grenade Launcher, allowing them a deadly barrage against enemy armor.  Combined with their ability to move about the battlefield quickly and gain the upper hand with unequalled positioning, the Scourges can provide unmatched support to any Raiding Force.

Stats:
  Standard Cannon                 S6 AP4  Assault 4  24"
  Haywire Grenade Launcher    Sn/a AP n/a Assault 1 24" (uses Haywire Grenade special rules regarding damage to vehicles - HGL's use normal BS for the To Hit roll against Vehicles)



Totally mobile,  Gives us a new weapon (anyone else tired of the same 4 weapons in the army?), and gives scourges a real reason to exist.  Perhaps S6 is a bit much, but I didn't want to just copy the Heavy Bolter profile... although we do have a higher rate of fire (being DE and all, we're just cool like that).  S5 really would be plenty for an anti-infantry role.... but that aside (it's just a first draft afterall) what do you think? Like I said, using Haywire Grenades means we don't get an uber-lascannon squad of doom vs MEQ's, but it's nasty vs vehicles (although remember you do need a 6 to Pen).  And it gives us a real alternative to Lances vs Vehicles.  *And* with a max 24" range, they're gonna have to jump into the danger zone just a bit to pull off this attack, unlike being able to sit back and chill with a Lance.

Anyway, just wanted to throw that out there... what do you guys think?  All assault, so you can keep their current movement.  With this, I'd say the current cost is about right also.

And for the record, I wouldn't say no to a 4+ save (they're wearing bulkier armor to stablize the weapon already in this case, and they can't fleet, so a 4+ isn't *too* horrible, I don't think).  If they got the weapon and a 4+ they'd *definitely* be worht the cost, I think. 

Anyway... thoughts?

Khira'lyth

[Farceseer Syranaul]

Hell, I would be happy with the current cost of Dark Lances on Scourges if they were assault.  Last thing they need is a furrther price hike however 

Of course you wouldn't mind changing the dark lance into an assault weapon for no cost, every one wants free stuff.  However,  Dark Eldar stuff is so inexpensive to begin with it would be criminal to do it and not have to pay a little more for it.  However if the change was only for the scourges then it should be a special rule for the scourges and not a change for the weapon itself.

About the scourge cannon.  A weapon with a strength six is already able to destroy most vehicles.  Especially with the mobility of the jump packs.  The haywire launcher undermount is unnecessary.  Stick with then normal splinter cannon and give it a haywire launcher might be okay.  The range should be half of what Khira'lyth has it at for the grenade launcher..

[Khira'lyth]

Hmm..... I see a few people are saying that 24" grenade launcher is too much (as well as S6).  S5 would be fine by me for the basic gun as I mentioned earlier... and does put it within the normal "anti-infantry" scope.  However I'm not seeing the mega-death of 24" on the HWG Launcher.  Granted HW's are pretty nasty against vehicles, but Lances aren't something most people laugh at either.  4 Shots with the Launcher should give you probably 3 hits.  That's a 50% chance of a Pen Hit (or a no effect)... likely all three will be Glances.  Now three glances has a good chance to really mess up a vehicle... but compare it to 4 Lance shots.  Again 3 hits... now it's no worse than a 4 to Glance, and at most a 5+ to Pen.  So against heavy armor that's a Glance, a Pen, and a No Effect.  Less rolls, but the "guaranteed" Pen gives you much more damage potential in that one roll.
The Launcher comes into play more against Monoliths, etc, where the Lance effect is negated.  Very rare indeed.

The main idea is to give them an anti-tank weapon other than a lance without giving them a Lascannon. 
The shorter range (proposed 24") of the Launcher balances with the Assault type, so that the wings can really be used, and overall leaves the Scourges as a mobile support squad.


If you've got reason to restrict the range, feel free to list your reasons... but as far as I see, comparing it to the alternative (dark lance) I don't see a need for such a limited range.  24" on an anti-tank weapon that *only* effects tanks is already fairly low.

Khira'lyth

[allconsuminghat]

Hell, I would be happy with the current cost of Dark Lances on Scourges if they were assault.  Last thing they need is a furrther price hike however 

Of course you wouldn't mind changing the dark lance into an assault weapon for no cost, every one wants free stuff.  However,  Dark Eldar stuff is so inexpensive to begin with it would be criminal to do it and not have to pay a little more for it.  However if the change was only for the scourges then it should be a special rule for the scourges and not a change for the weapon itself.

No! What we are saying is that scourges are so unbelievably bad that they NEED new upgrades and abilities for free, they CAN'T pay the points for them because they are already WAY too much, terminator cost for a t3, 5+ model with no mobility just doesn't work, scourges ARE NOT inexpensive. We already did give scourges a special ability where they can shoot heavy weapons even if they move but only at half range but I don't know where that went off to, we gave them a 12" jump move in the assault phase provided only if they didn't move in the move phase and gave them disintegrators, that was fine, they were ready.

[Farceseer Syranaul]

I know what you are saying, but I say it is bull.  The suggestion of halving the range on heavy weapons, and making the dark lance into an assault weapon is to much.  The latter affects the whole army, which is another thing that wouldn't be right.  The assault move I was against as well for the same reason.  Pick one and that would be fine, but do not add a whole load of amphetamine parakeet.

Make up your mind on what they need changed first.  Is it more resilience, or mobility?  Then choose a way to fix it.

[Le Cruel]

I personally agree to make them a stable firing platform, and mabye reduce the cost of the weapons by 5 points.  That's really all they'll need to make them a devestating, fast but fragile heavy weapons squad, which is what they're meant to be.

Mabye change their basic weapons to an assault weapon, but that should be about it.  We don't want to change them too much, just make them a viable choice.

[allconsuminghat]

I know what you are saying, but I say it is bull.  The suggestion of halving the range on heavy weapons, and making the dark lance into an assault weapon is to much.  The latter affects the whole army, which is another thing that wouldn't be right.  The assault move I was against as well for the same reason.  Pick one and that would be fine, but do not add a whole load of amphetamine parakeet.

Make up your mind on what they need changed first.  Is it more resilience, or mobility?  Then choose a way to fix it.

No, the latter does not affect the whole army, none of the revisions we made affected anything but scourges! Its just they can move and shoot HEAVY weapons, but if they do this, they can only shoot them at half range, not that the weapons ranges are halved and they become assautl weapons. The assault move fits in with their theme and the combination of both fixes their problems, what more do you want? Lances were useless on them, insert move-shoot heavy weapons, lances sort of work, deepstrike was useless, again, this fixes this, their fragility which was too much even for dark eldar was slightly ammended by their jump move - which is fluffy, and they were given another weapon option which they should have always had and so they can do other things. They were fixed, but you keep argueing with everything.

[Toad_Raider]

I know what you are saying, but I say it is bull.

Hate to break it to you, but you have *no idea* what he is saying.  Otherwise, judging by your posts, you wouldn't be complaining so much.  My fault really... ambiguous statement earlier.  Sorry about that.  As Tenozuma & I have tried (and evidently failed) to say, the changes are to the Scourges, not the Dark Lances.  Hell, this is a Revision thread for the Scourge, not Dark Lances!

So, Tenozuma pretty much has it down pat.  The problem is not Dark Lances themselves, but Dark Lances on Scourges.  They are ridiculously expensive for their limited use, and don't fit the Scourge theme at all IMHO.

If Scourges can move & shoot heavy weapons at half range, it fixes Dark Lances' uselessness as an option!  That simple!  The cost of this new ability would already be factored into the exorbitant cost of Scourges with Dark Lances.

[faithlessmonkeigh]

alright, please please do not make this hard... i would like that every member before they post here go to the revision thread and read about what  i have said about scourges, if that sounds ok to you, then please do not post in this thread anymore!!

lol

and if you have problems with the scourges then pm me, we have got to get these revisions moving along, i want to get these done and send them off.
remember GW has probably started on the prelim work for DE now

faithless

[ArchonDragomyr]

Ok, I freely admit I read and skimmed most of this.  Most of the ideas are sound, and I agree with the majority on all points, but I think I can add an ideas as well.   I always felt this unit was based off of Swooping hawks, and shoved into Heavy Support with Dark Lance options.  Having said that, the Haywire launcher that has been bandied around is a worthy choice.  Swooping Hawks get grenade packs, it would be cool and fluffy to swoop from the skies and drop a template on a squad or vehicle to start things off.  Of course it scatters and well may not do anything, but it is just a suggestion.