Topic: Let's talk about troop choices and the FOC

[Arufel87]

I have used rangers a few times so far and they have proved to be reasonably effective. The problem is that they are so static that they offer very little outside of plinking the odd wound off something. It also doesn't help that Illic is a much better purchase if you're looking to deal with minor buffing characters. Altogether they suit a list that sits back and lets the enemy come to them and work best as MSU's as you can't expect 5 of them to achieve very much.

[LiRM35M4419]

Ok guys I'm a little confused.  I have read all the talk about DA's being massively overpriced, and in the Xenos 1 index I bought today they are listed as 2 points more than your basic guardian.  Am I missing something, or has all the gnashing of teeth been the result of a typo?

[SeekingOne]

You have to add the cost of all basic wargear. Avenger shuriken catapult has a cost, and that cost is crazy high.

[Blazinghand]

Ok guys I'm a little confused.  I have read all the talk about DA's being massively overpriced, and in the Xenos 1 index I bought today they are listed as 2 points more than your basic guardian.  Am I missing something, or has all the gnashing of teeth been the result of a typo?

They also have to pay for their wargear, the Dire Avenger Shuriken Catapult, which raises the price to over 2x the cost of a Guardian Defender with a regular (very very cheap) Shuriken Catapult.

10 DAs, Exarch has 2x catapult: 177 pts
20 Guardian Defenders with 1x Shuricannon plat: 177

[LiRM35M4419]

Thanks for the clarification; that does make them stupidly expensive.

[Blazinghand]

I suspect with the Codex we will get some price corrections, as it seems the Space Marines codex is giving some overpriced things (like the Land Speeder for example). We may also get Bladestorm back which would make DAs better.

How good is it to give Storm Guardians a couple flamers? 8 of them with two flamers is like 75 pts. I remember back in the day, a way you could run Storm Guardians would be 10 + 1 Warlock with Destructor, 2 of them have Flamers, and this was reasonably good. Are Flamer Storm Guardians usable now?

[Partninja]

They're not unusable by any means. It's just flamers don't have the same impact as they used to (cover is different), and catapults are just really good currently. Also, flamers can be inconsistent with their rolls.

8-10 models, with chainswords, two flamers and possibly two power weapons would be a decent cheap assault unit to work as clean up for a unit of Defenders.

Don't think I would include Warlocks anymore unless you need the cheap HQ choice. Enhance/Drain would be useful if you can actually cast it.

[Blazinghand]

Are power swords a good idea on such a bad frame? Might be better just to pack more Storm Guardians, if the math works out.

2 Storm Guardians with Power Swords is equivalent in cost (pretty much) to 3 Storm Guardians with Chainswords. How do these options compare?

Cost
3 Guardians with Chainswords costs 10% more than 2 Guardians with Power Swords

Effectiveness vs Marines
2 Guardians with Power Swords vs Marines: 4/3 hits, 4/9 wounds, 10/27 wounds post-save
3 Guardians with Chainswords vs Marines: 4 hits, 4/3 wounds, 4/9 wounds post-save (12/27), 20% more damage

Effectiveness vs Orkz
2 Guardians with Power Swords vs Ork Boyz: 4/3 hits, 4/9 wounds, 4/9 wounds post-save
3 Guardians with Chainswords vs Ork Boyz: 4 hits, 4/3 wounds, 10/9 wounds post-save, 150% more damage
Effectiveness vs Guardsmen
2 Guardians with Power Swords vs Guardsmen: 4/3 hits, 2/3 wounds, 2/3 wounds post-save
3 Guardians with Chainswords vs Guardsmen: 4 hits, 2 wounds, 4/3 wounds post-save, 100% more damage

Seems like "more Guardians with chainswords instead of aeldari blades" outdo Power Swords, price for price, on average, against most typical troops.

So maybe 10 Storm Guardians: 8x Chainsword, 2x Flamer?

[Partninja]

How does that compare to equal points of defenders shooting with their catapults?

[Blazinghand]

How does that compare to equal points of defenders shooting with their catapults?

Hmm, so let's say "Defenders shooting catapults then charging" vs "Storm Guardians shooting pistols + flamers then charging"? This might be a good way to see how it works out.

These two units cost the same:
8 Storm Guardians: 6 Chainsword+Shuriken Pistols, 2 Flamers
10 Defender Guardians

My guess is that against Space Marines would hold up better to the 2 flamers, 1 grenade, and 5 pistols than they would to 1 grenade and 9 catapults, but attacks from the Storm Guardians in cc might close the gap.

My guess is that the rending from the Catapults is less useful against say, Guardsmen or Kroot or something with bad saves, relative to extra close combat attacks and flamers, and so the Storm Guardians might be better in that situation.

[Partninja]

That the problem though. The catapults are quite a bit more universally useful as bladestorm is scarier to even more heavier armored infantry.

[Blazinghand]

That the problem though. The catapults are quite a bit more universally useful as bladestorm is scarier to even more heavier armored infantry.

The bladestorm exarch power  ( and its aspect shrine equivalent) is not in this edition and defenders never had it. Rending, if that's what you mean, is crucial and the difference-maker vs marines.

[SeekingOne]

How does that compare to equal points of defenders shooting with their catapults?

I compared 10 Defenders to 8 Stormies w/6 chainswords and 2 flamers
Using flat averages, it looks like this:

Vs T4 3+:

	Wnd from Shooting--	Wnd in Melee--	Total
Defenders--	3.33	0.74	4.07
Stormies--	2.17	1.04	3.2

Vs T3 5+:

	Wnd from Shooting--	Wnd in Melee--	Total
Defenders--	6.67	2.22	8.89
Stormies--	5.11	3.11	8.22

Vs T4 6+:

	Wnd from Shooting--	Wnd in Melee--	Total
Defenders--	5.93	1.85	7.78
Stormies--	4.69	2.59	7.29

As you can see, Defenders do substantially better against Marine-type targets. But even against the least armoured targets Defenders still do more damage (although the difference is very small in that case).

A funny fact is that even Stormies still do substantially more damage with shooting than in melee. This also goes indirectly in favour of Defenders.

Personally, the only case when I'd consider fielding Stormies is when using an 8-elf squad with 2 fusions as a "poor man's" Dragons replacement.

The idea of using MEQ, GEQ, and other acronyms is to avoid posting the stats, so I have removed the stats accordingly - Iris.

EDIT
Replaced acronyms with params, because otherwise it's unreadable.

[Partninja]

That the problem though. The catapults are quite a bit more universally useful as bladestorm is scarier to even more heavier armored infantry.

The bladestorm exarch power  ( and its aspect shrine equivalent) is not in this edition and defenders never had it. Rending, if that's what you mean, is crucial and the difference-maker vs marines.

Yes, I'm referring to the current "rending" bladestorm as that is what it is now, and has been for a while.