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Offline Hypopheralcus

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Eldar armies versus monstrous creatures
« on: February 21, 2009, 05:56:13 PM »
During the last edition of 40k every Eldar had some Harlequins, Pathfinders and Fire Dragons in his force that could handle big bugs quite well. The former two however are rarely seen in 5th edition, where rate of fire rules the battlefield. I have noticed that many lists in these forums have few weapons that can actually pierce those think citin plates. This leads to the question what is the new agenda of fighting MCs.

How do you fry those oversized angry roaches?

Offline Irisado

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Re: Eldar armies versus monstrous creatures
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2009, 06:08:56 PM »
How do you fry those oversized angry roaches?

I'm sure that Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons love being referred to in that way  ;).

I can only talk about Chaos really when it comes to Monstrous Creatures, as I haven't faced Tyranids for years.  I feel that Harlequins are still a viable option against Chaos, since it makes sense for them to fielded against Chaos armies in terms of the background, and providing you have the right supporting units, you can get them to work.  It's more difficult than it was in fourth edition to use Harlequins, which is why some players don't use them any more, but I think that this is a good thing, as it rewards players who use good tactics, and stops them appearing in every Eldar army out there too (which is what prompted the statement in my signature for those who are interested in knowing these things  :)).

Rangers/Pathfinders can still work too, and against Chaos they are less vulnerable, as they won't be coming down from the skies in Drop Pods, making it easier for you to protect them.

While rending isn't as potent as it was, it's still one of the best tools the Eldar have for dealing with Monstrous Creatures.

The other options are to take the Avatar and close assault Wraithlords, and go Monstrous Creature hunting that way, or you can take Wraithguard and hope you get the chance to shoot them with Wraithcannons.

For Iyanden players, combining those two elements to take on armies which make use of Monstrous Creatures seems like a pretty good tactic to me, but I'll let Starrakatt et al expand on that one.

That's my take on dealing with them, but I'm sure there are other sneaky tactics that players will have up their sleeves.
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Offline Ahrimaneus

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Re: Eldar armies versus monstrous creatures
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2009, 06:19:09 PM »
Fire dragons are key for roasting the MC's.  On the upside, if there are a lot of MC's there are rarely many tanks, so the Dragons won't often find themselves deciding which to attack.  Of course then there's some chaos marine armies...

I've used Eldrad to take out lone MC's on occassion, but Yriel is also very good against them.  Need to be careful about instant death though.  I personally run Harlequins as well but I know most don't.

Of course our own MC's can be used against them as well (Avatar, Wraithlord), but that of course depends on the opposing MC.

I've also used Shining Spears to good effect against MC's.  Str 6/8 PW attacks do a good job of cutting into MC's.  Perhaps a Scorpions Exarch with Claw could as well but I've never tried this so I'm not sure if that's your best option.


EDIT: Totally ninja'd by Irisado  :)
« Last Edit: February 21, 2009, 06:22:12 PM by Ahrimaneus »
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Offline Raktra (So long, I guess)

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Re: Eldar armies versus monstrous creatures
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2009, 06:36:00 PM »
Against Daemon beasties (with the exception of Khorne), Warp Spiders can be a good choice. Lots of high S shots and the ability to get the beslubber out of there when they're in danger is useful. Warlocks can perform the same role when they keep their Witchblades.

Offline Big Bad Wolf

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Re: Eldar armies versus monstrous creatures
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2009, 06:44:22 PM »
I play against a 'nidzilla list all the time and one of the things I do to bring them down is to field a unit of 10 pathfinders in cover w/ Eldrad and then park a Falcon w/ Starcannon next to them w/ Fire Dragons inside.  Guide falcon and pathfinders, doom bug if it gets close.  Lots of AP1/2 w/ rerolled wounds and I can drop one a turn pretty easy.  Plus the pathfinders can park their butts to hold an objective and the fire dragons (with heavy flamer) provide plenty of punch to stop anything from getting to the pathfinders.  Granted this is an expensive set up, but this is the fire base that my army list operates around.
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Offline EldarBaller

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Re: Eldar armies versus monstrous creatures
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2009, 07:18:15 PM »
If were talking no cost concerns.  Might as well throw Jain Zar in with some harlequins.  On the charge She has S7 5 attacks and I10 plus the rending hits from the Harlequins.  All delivered with the help of the Shadowseer.

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Re: Eldar armies versus monstrous creatures
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2009, 08:59:21 PM »
As a Ghost Army Tactician, no MC is viable against Wraithcannons. Not that our 12 inch really scares those MC, it is the SX AP2 that trully scares all within range of Wraithguards. Yes, we can kill multi wound models, but it really doesn't matter since the armies that carries MC in their armies are Nids, usually if it has or within range of Synapse. It is immune to insta-kill. Chaos Daemons are also immune to insta-kill. The only MCs that are not immune are Eldar and Dark Eldar, kinda wierd eh?

So to sum it up, folks rarely trouble themselves against Wraithguards unless they see them in HUGE numbers. When I say HUGE numbers, I mean number that can literally block off paths to get behind your line. A unit of 3-10 wraithguards poses as a standing or walking shield for other units, while several units of 5-10 wraithguards are considered as a walking wall.
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Re: Eldar armies versus monstrous creatures
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2009, 02:23:15 AM »
Most of the units I would suggest for dealing with MC's have already been mentioned, but I will sum them up:

Seer Council:  Preferably with a Fortune Seer.  Wounding on 2+ with re-rollable invulnerable saves means they can survive long enough to get the job done.

Yriel:  I wouldn't use him unsupported, but he has the capability as well.

Avatar:  No brainer.

Fire Dragons:  A larger squad should be able to roast an MC all by themselves.  If you use a smaller squad, you might want an assault unit nearby to mop up.

Shining Spears:  Vulnerable when exposed.  Best used to finish of an MC that the small Fire Dragon's squad shot up.

Wraithguard:  Wraithcannons are good against just about anything, except for swarms.

Rangers/Pathfinders:  Rending isn't what it used to be, but these guys can hit from ranges that the other units I am mentioning can only dream of, giving them several turns to get the job done, in theory.

Harlequins:  Kisses mean they can kill just about anything, but again, Rending is not as effective as it once was.
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Offline kiddo

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Re: Eldar armies versus monstrous creatures
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2009, 04:43:25 PM »
For MC hunting I also use pathfinders (when available...) but I mostly relies on my fire dragons.

However you should consider that on doomed creatures, harlies are are actually more effective in V5 than in V4...   

Offline Raktra (So long, I guess)

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Re: Eldar armies versus monstrous creatures
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2009, 04:49:37 PM »
V4 you wouldn't even need the re-rolls though, that's how they were more effective back then.

Offline Hypopheralcus

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Re: Eldar armies versus monstrous creatures
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2009, 05:35:16 PM »
Would ignoring be a viable tactic? Many armies I see don't have many of the above mentioned troops and solely rely on a pair of prisms and a squad of fire dragons, wich may be enough for one or two MCs but for nothing more.

Offline Irisado

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Re: Eldar armies versus monstrous creatures
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2009, 05:39:36 PM »
Would ignoring be a viable tactic? Many armies I see don't have many of the above mentioned troops and solely rely on a pair of prisms and a squad of fire dragons, wich may be enough for one or two MCs but for nothing more.

I've seen a lot of Eldar armies led by an Avatar, so I would be surprised if he's not a common choice too.

As for ignoring Monstrous Creatures, I don't really think you can, especially not if they are Daemon Princes with Wings and Lash of Submission or Wind of Chaos, so if you find yourself up against a force which includes two or more Monstrous Creatures, I feel that they will have to be taken out sooner or later.
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Offline Kaminari

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Re: Eldar armies versus monstrous creatures
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2009, 02:55:56 AM »
Another valid tactic for the mech lists are the Serpents/Falcons.
Either armed with Brightlances/EMLs or by sheer volume of fire with S6 shots are sufficient to get after the big ones. If you are able to field either Eldrad or Yriel in the game, even better.
I do use concentrated fire to get rid of a specifice threat in one turn. If there is an abundance of big creatures, then focus on the biggest threats for your army (e.g. quick ones) and ignore the rest. For example get the Dakkafexes and the (Winged) Hive Tyrant early, but ignore the Support Carnifexes altogether. Another alternative is focussing just on the scoring units if they appear to be low / badly protected.
It has shown worthy in all-comer tournies and I have not lost against Tyranids, Daemons in 5th yet.  :)

Nevertheless this depends on the setup of the rest of your army / your army idea. We might also continue this discussion on Fanworld then.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 03:06:43 AM by Kaminari »

Offline Fire_Vyper

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Re: Eldar armies versus monstrous creatures
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2009, 03:36:36 AM »
my pathfinders vs MC's has let me down even with just six of them ive mangaed to dowm anything from C'tan gods to GodFexes they only trouble they have evr had is when the MC's have wings(God dam hive tyrants!) and get to them before they can really do dmg,

 fire dragons arnt the best for me becuase you are pretty much putting them in CC range of the MC and anynearby troops meaning they will be shot/torn apart fairly quickly after that.

Warlocks are really good against MC's(duh) but i find against nids they get bogged down afterwards by the smaller stuff and get cut down eventualy but do better if supported by scorps or something.

Offline flatland69

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Re: Eldar armies versus monstrous creatures
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2009, 03:42:22 AM »
Arg! Ninja'd, you took all my points I was about to make! Here it is anyway...

I've always found my rangers/pathfinders to be fantastic at killing MCs, especially when doomed! Rangers are better when the MC has an invulnerable save, but if there is only a regular save, pathfinders are fantastic. My problem with fire dragons is that you have to be very close to that carnifex, and if it survives...

Offline Farseer Amidas

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Re: Eldar armies versus monstrous creatures
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2009, 06:01:33 AM »
It's not anything that I have personally tried, but to get around the short range of the wraithguard 5 could be mounted in a wave serpent with warlock. Could give you the potential to get near a big bug. Though for the points you may as well take fire dragons. Has anyone ever used wraithguard in tanks?

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Offline Fire_Vyper

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Re: Eldar armies versus monstrous creatures
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2009, 07:36:00 AM »
Sorry flatland but thats life ;)

wraithgaurd arnt a bad choice for sticking in transports but it starts getting very pricey after awhile and once the MC dies they dont have much to do afterwards if you are against nids and they will probably be far more expensive than the MC they are killing anyway a 5 man squad with a tranport come close to 300 points where as most carnifexes arnt more than 200 pts.

another problem as with the fire dragons is the range problem as even though they are much tougher than fire dragons they are twice the points and will be quickly outnumbered and killed.

fire dragons and wraithgaurd in a transport could be great MC killers if the enemy player was dumb enough to leave his MC's unsupported and exposed somewhere but unfortunately that doesnt happen often enough in my games  :-\

Offline Alerian

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Re: Eldar armies versus monstrous creatures
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2009, 09:48:49 AM »
Like others have mentioned, I use my Avvy, FDs, Council and pathfinders to kill MCs.

However, my favorite has to be SL WWs.  24 S6 shots from 36" (especially on a doomed MC) tends to put the hurt on, and keep my WWs safe.  All the others (except pathfinders) have to get close the the MC and it's supporting units.

Offline Starrakatt

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Re: Eldar armies versus monstrous creatures
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2009, 10:49:45 AM »
As Alerian (and others) mentions, many STR 6+ shots will also take down Greater Daemons/Daemon Princes no end, especially Doomed ones, although it may get more difficult to kill 2+ Saves Tyranids, a too common occurence.
Alternatively, some Starcannon Warwalkers, although pricier, work well to take MCs and Feel No Pain models alike, although I never tried them myself.

But I wish to delve a bit more on some other ways to kill MCs here, please bear with me...
For Iyanden players, combining those two elements to take on armies which make use of Monstrous Creatures seems like a pretty good tactic to me, but I'll let Starrakatt et al expand on that one.
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Quote
Rangers/Pathfinders can still work too, and against Chaos they are less vulnerable, as they won't be coming down from the skies in Drop Pods, making it easier for you to protect them.
Much so, although I would add the Harlequins to the vulnerable units to Deepstrike lists, as I found out recently - Academic knowledge is nice, first hand disaster make you learn...

Quote
While rending isn't as potent as it was, it's still one of the best tools the Eldar have for dealing with Monstrous Creatures.
And Doom is an absolute must have if you decide to use our Snipers and local Clowns to get at MCs, but not necessarily worth it if used 'only' to help them. But then, there's plenty of (relatively) low strength units/guns in our armies (Troops and CC stuff) that can benefit of that power, so...

Another thing to consider is that both of these are highly vulnerable to fast lists and/or drive by rapid fire (include Flamers) squads in addition to the Deepstrike lists, so you when you build your own force you really have to take this factor into consideration and make heavy use of synergistic units to protect your investment - The reason why I am slowly relegating my Rangers/Pathfinders as supplementary units for bigger games as I want to keep my lists entirely mobile for that purpose.

Quote
The other options are to take the Avatar and close assault Wraithlords, and go Monstrous Creature hunting that way, or you can take Wraithguard and hope you get the chance to shoot them with Wraithcannons.
How nice of you Irisado, my very favorites, thank you. ;)

Consider this list, which include many of the units listed as very good at taking out MCs (and all will understand why I do not have much problems with the biggies):

HQ: 145 Pts
- Farseer W/ Spirit Stones, Runes of Warding, Fortune & Doom – 145 pts

ELITE: 190 Pts
- Harlequins X 7 W/ 6 Kisses, Shadowseer & Death Jester – 190 pts

TROOP: 802 Pts
- Wraithguard X 10, Spiritseer W/ Conceal – 396 pts
- Pathfinders X 6 - 144 pts
- Avengers X 10, Exarch w/Dual Catapult & Bladestorm - 152 pts
 + Wave Serpent W/ Twin Shuricans, Spirit Stone - 110 pts

HEAVY: 290 Pts
- Wraithlord W/ 2 Flamers, EML & Brightlance – 155 pts
- Wraithlord W/ 2 Flamers, EML & Scatter Laser – 135 pts

FAST: 70 Pts
- Vyper w/ Scatter Laser & Shurican

TOTAL: 1497 Pts

Last time I played Bugs with this, both Wraithlords engaged respectively a Tyrant and a Carnifex in CC, one being eventually killed by the Tyrant (not before taking 2 wounds of it) and the other slaying the Fex. Then the Tyrant got erased by the surviving Wraithguard that I used to hold off half of the Tyranid army while the Harlequins killed the swarms locked in CC with the Wraithguard by the dozens with Fearless Combat Resolution.

The Harlies died afterward to a Dakka Fex, but then my opponent had to chose between Assaulting the Wraithguard or killing the Harlequins - He chose the clowns then the Dakka Fex got Wraithcannoned (new verb!) to death.

Rangers/Pathfinders traditionally performed well enough for me against MCs but were of little use this game as I used them more as a bait unit and to camp an Objective.

It's not anything that I have personally tried, but to get around the short range of the wraithguard 5 could be mounted in a wave serpent with warlock. Could give you the potential to get near a big bug. Though for the points you may as well take fire dragons. Has anyone ever used wraithguard in tanks?
I do often enough, although with only 5 shots against 4 wound MCs is stretching luck to the extreme. Best to use them to finish off the wounded ones. A good choice for me is mounting Yriel with them - Increase their versatility in AT, CC, anti-MC/MEQ/Hordes capabilities to a surprising level of hurt when taking into account the option for him to leave the WG and bomb almost any unit with the Eye of Wrath...
Note that by using Yriel or one of the high strength Phoenix Lord (of which I found Jain Zar complement the Wraithguard the best) you palliate the unit's weakness against CC retaliation from the MC.

Wraithgaurd aren't a bad choice for sticking in transports but it starts getting very pricey after awhile and once the MC dies they dont have much to do afterwards if you are against nids and they will probably be far more expensive than the MC they are killing anyway a 5 man squad with a tranport come close to 300 points where as most carnifexes arnt more than 200 pts.
And that is the crux of it, especially if you invest in a pricey charcter to lead them, which lead us to this:
Quote
...another problem as with the Fire Dragons is the range problem as even though they are much tougher than Fire Dragons they are twice the points and will be quickly outnumbered and killed.

Fire Dragons and Wraithguard in a transport could be great MC killers if the enemy player was dumb enough to leave his MC's unsupported and exposed somewhere but unfortunately that doesnt happen often enough in my games  :-\
It means that if you decide to use mechanised Wraithguard you effectively have to build your army with that particularity in mind, either by going with a mostly mechanised force (then a Fortuneseer nearby would be invaluable for the Wraithguard) or with a mixed list with the appropriate mechanised and/or footslogging/long range backup to support the fast part of your force.

Without delving deeply into mathhammer here, lets consider this mechanised Wraithguard/IC unit:
ELITE/HQ: 510 pts
- Wraithguard X 5, Warlock W/ Destructor - 210 pts
- Jain Zar (W/ Executioner, Silent Death, etc...) - 190 pts
 + Wave Serpent W/ Twin Shuricans, Spirit Stone - 110 pts

Advantages (vs 10 WG on foot):
+A) This unit will dish around the same amount of damage to any MEQ unit as a full volley from a 11 strong WG unit TROOP (Spiritseer included).
+B) Should inflict MORE damage to any Horde unit due to Destructor.
+C) Much meaner in CC against MEQs and MCs due to the IC's inclusion, about equivalent against Hordes.
+D) About as resilient than their 11 strong unit counterpart, and that due to Jain Zar's superior save, particulary with wound allocation from shooting (Majority Toughness rules!)
+E) More mobile, versatile and abilty to contest far in th enemy DZ.

Disavantages:
-A) Very high pts cost.
-B) Harder to support.
-C) Fortuning them effectively mean adding more points to the fray, usually meaning flying the Farseer in another transport - May as well make a full mech force in that case. See HERE, second list.
-D) NOT scoring.

As you can see the cost is steep if you add the PL, but it quickly decrease if you decide to use Yriel or a standard Autarch (W/ Fusion Gun/Powersword - 90 pts) but the lesser the IC, the lower the unit's resilience will usually go down, along with CC potential (although Yriel is usually even better than a PL to inflict hurt).

So yes, while a mech Wraithguard (or Dragons) effectively expose themselves to many a nastyness once disembarked, there are ways to counteract them to be overwhelmed if they are given adequate support and backup, either from afar or close by with fellow mech unit(s).
The important thing to remember is to build you army around the concept of mutual support, especially when dealing with very expensive units - as we should always do as Eldar players, whatever what we use. ;)

Sorry for the long winded speech, hope it helps.

   Starky
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 10:50:58 AM by Starrakatt »

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Offline Tethesis

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Re: Eldar armies versus monstrous creatures
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2009, 11:12:13 AM »
I once took out a Daemon Prince just by shooting at it with my squad of 10 Stormies :P. They had 2 Fusion rifles, but even se it was a lucky shot I reckon :P. I've also eliminated Carnifexes just by charging them with a 10 Banshee squad (the Carni just so happened to be nearby, and it's always better to charge than be charged).

Fire Dragon I never use, not to fond of 1-hit wonders tbh. But Shooting enough shots at thos biggies always helps, plant a 3 Warwalker squad with 6 Multilasers and anything will go down (except for stuff with Armour :P).


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