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Offline gangrel767

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Help ignoring cover
« on: October 8, 2015, 12:50:18 AM »
What tools are people using to defeat the prevalence of (re-rollable 2+) cover saves? Essentially, how are you dealing with cover saves in general? One caveat... no LOW.
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Help ignoring cover
« Reply #1 on: October 8, 2015, 05:38:17 AM »
Let's see:

- Wave Serpents shield attack.
- Artillery like the shadow weavers.
- Dark reapers ignore some cover.
- Wraithguard with D-Scythe.
- Storm Guardians with flamers.
Close combat.
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Offline gangrel767

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Re: Help ignoring cover
« Reply #2 on: October 8, 2015, 09:12:38 AM »
Sure, absolutely... and the Night Spinner, and Conceal/Reveal, Divination...

Thank you. I do appreciate your reply, but I'm hoping for a little more than a list.

I understand what tools there are, but how are people using them? I'm looking for more of gameplay tips, or preferences people have in their lists.

I have recently been playing my buddy's Dark Angels and boy those 2+ or 3+ re-rollables are brutal. I have a decent track record against him so far, but it made me think about how other Eldar players are dealing with cover saves since the prevalence and reliability of the Wave Serpents serpent shield has changed.

Don't get me wrong... we're in a good place, and I'm not be-atching about our codex at all, just curious as to what methods and implementations of these tools people have had success with so far.

Thanks again!
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Offline DCannon ForLife

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Re: Help ignoring cover
« Reply #3 on: October 8, 2015, 09:28:36 AM »
I beat Dark Angels with Perfect Timing and a unit of 5 scatbikes.

Otherwise, a well-positioned serpent (Webstriking), perhaps carrying Scytheguard, will take out the key skimmer (the Darkshroud). After that, it's a matter of stacking enough glances/pens that a couple get through.

It is a mistaken notion that Shadow Weavers (or Night Spinners) would be effective: Barrage doesn't ignore cover, cover is determined by resolving the attack as if the 'shots' originate from the center hole of the first template. The skimmers will still get their 2+ re-rollable cover save.

Offline Fenris

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Re: Help ignoring cover
« Reply #4 on: October 8, 2015, 09:31:19 AM »
Dark Angels have some auras, one from the landspeeder-like vehicle darkshroud, I've seen quite a lot of lists using this one, they then have some other guy in a land raider making all bolters within 12" twin linked or somathing like that, those lists usually then fill up the rest of the army with bikes.

Without looking in the DA book I think popping the darkshroud with Dark reapers turn 1 goes a long way, then popping the land raider with lance walkers or if the LR is aggressive a strategically deployed unit of swooping hawks, can just assault it. Just popping the LR actually makes the twin-link bubble much smaller.
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Offline haunt

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Re: Help ignoring cover
« Reply #5 on: October 8, 2015, 01:14:48 PM »
Units that ignore covers,

Dark Reaper Exarch with Tempest Launcher
Fire Dragon Exarch with Dragon's Breath Flamer (along with any flamer template weapons and psychic power)
Wave Serpent with it's Shield
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Help ignoring cover
« Reply #6 on: October 8, 2015, 01:49:04 PM »
Haunt: Gangrel is asking for how to use these units effectively against the Dark Angels, not just a list of units which are capable of bypassing cover saves :).
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Offline gangrel767

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Re: Help ignoring cover
« Reply #7 on: October 8, 2015, 02:26:26 PM »
Not just specifically Dark Angels... but thank you Irisado.

I play against a lot of Demons, MC spam, which have a lot of 2+ re-rollable cover saves as well... so it's more of a general tips and tactics vs cover.

I have been thinking of trying to run a few warlocks in 3 man jb squads merely to cast reveal on tough stuff.

Or I have debated on running a Aspect Host all in Wave Serpents for some good ignores cover.

I wasn't sure if anyone had luck with something out of the ordinary, like storm guardians with flamers and a warlock, or perhaps seer council and tying up those tough units.

Also, to note on DCANNONs comment... the night spinner does have the torrent flamer mode, so that can be very useful for denying cover too.
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Help ignoring cover
« Reply #8 on: October 8, 2015, 03:21:10 PM »
Ah, okay, thanks for the clarification.  I thought that you were specifically interested in help against Dark Angels, based on your example.

I don't play any more, but my favourite method of getting around cover saves when I used to play was to use the Storm Guardians with Flamers combined with a Warlock and Destructor.  They are a brittle unit, but mounted in a Wave Serpent, you can get them where you need them quickly, and all those templates inflict so many wounds that the opposing squad is likely to take a lot of casualties.  Maybe this option would still be reasonable under the current rules?
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Offline gangrel767

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Re: Help ignoring cover
« Reply #9 on: October 8, 2015, 03:28:57 PM »
It definitely will work, but Warlock power are randomly generated now, so you'll be depending on rolling it. they do get conceal/reveal as primaris so that helps.

It's a shame that you don't play anymore.. I remember conversing with you quite a bit back a few years ago...is that because of 40k itself or just a personal choice?
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Help ignoring cover
« Reply #10 on: October 8, 2015, 04:03:27 PM »
No opponents, insufficient money, and a dislike of the direction in which the rules have gone.

I still love the Eldar and give advice where I can, such as in this topic, but the core rules and the drive towards using units which belong in Epic and not in 40K (flyers, titans, and knights) are not for me.



The random power generation does make this less effective, I agree.  The good thing is that the flamers are still pretty effective on their own.  Perhaps you could try a combined approach?  You could use Warlock led Jetbike squads in conjunction with the Storm Guardians, and have reveal as a back-up as well.  As a result, you'd have the fire power from the Storm Guardians plus the Shuriken Cannon (or Scatter Laser)/Shuriken Catapult support from the Jetbikes as well.

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Offline Lyonic

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Re: Help ignoring cover
« Reply #11 on: October 8, 2015, 11:40:26 PM »
Warlocks can take the primaris reveal, however 3 bare bike is the cost of a warlock soo...

i would suggest 4 shuriken cannon bikes with a warlock +. That makes 5 bikes so if you lose one you don't run. Simply reveal then hope for bladestorm... No armour no cover gg

take 6 squads of this.

also add in 2 farseers and roll on divination. Hopefully u will get perfect timing.. Then you cast it on 1 of those 3 units of dark reaper squads i also suggest. This will really hurt MEQ armour saves as they are sufficient AP and will have ignore cover. Yes powers are random but 2 farsers should be enough!!
hope this helps.

Offline Cavalier

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Re: Help ignoring cover
« Reply #12 on: October 9, 2015, 07:04:16 AM »
Good old D-Scythes get the job done like none other, yet Stormies as Irisado pointed out are good against light hordes, but also Dark Eldar Medusae from Court of the Archon drop flamer templates at Ap3 too. They can be taken as squads, or just a single one for a cheap DE HQ for ally purposes. Not only that they can use Venoms to Deepstrike in without use of a WWP. Bit of a gamble, but I actually really like Medusae. Nothing stopping you from modelling up something a bit more Eldar for counts-as purposes if the look of the mini doesn't suit your army too.
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Offline Ibushi

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Re: Help ignoring cover
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2015, 12:36:20 PM »
This is definitely something to consider, especially on the tournament scene, and if you check out my battle reports I have a few of these match ups to showcase.

My experience is that against dark angels, one unit of dark reapers can take out a small squad per turn, which really hurts them. Then just focus fire lasers and spiders into a second squad, and assault a third with your Wraithknight. If you have mobile d-scythes, go straight for the warlord. If you have perfect timing, even better, but you don't need it.

Actually against the ravenwing bikers, if you can soften them a bit, just assault those suckers -- in combat they are just 1 wound marines again.

For a batrep you can check out my game 3 from TSHFT in August -- I'll find the link for you later.

Against flying daemons, try and take out all their obsec while keeping yours alive, and win on mission points. It's practically impossible to kill them without freakish luck unless they come to ground.

Tau are looking like the next cover save army, but psychic shriek, perfect timing, and any assault presence will just ruin them if you have a few tough elements to throw right in their face. Batrep 5 from TSHFT is a good example of this one.

Not sure what your list is, but I'll assume it is pretty mobile and has lots of shooting ;) having a Wraithknight is a big help, failing that a hemlock is also good.
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Offline gangrel767

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Re: Help ignoring cover
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2015, 02:31:28 PM »
Typically my list have been somewhere in the area of:

2 units of 2 hornets (PL)
2-4 units of 3 man scat bikes
unit of swooping hawks
1-2 units of warp spiders
Sometimes a farseer, sometimes an autarch (depending on whether or not i take the Crimson Death Formation)


My collection is over 20 years old, so I can field almost anything I want.

In 6th I was an avid WK player, but with the new codex I have been avoiding them since they seem to be the crutch unit for everyone.

I would be interested in seeing those batreps.

With the new codex, if Tau can ignore cover as easily as they can now... then... well.. that won't be fun. lol
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Offline Ibushi

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Re: Help ignoring cover
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2015, 04:33:22 PM »
The link to my batreps is here: against dark angels is page 2 three posts down, then two batreps after that is against tau.

GT list to think on


Looking at your army, I can see why you would struggle with cover save shenanigan armies, as you have a decent quantity of high quality shooting, but are terrified of getting too close to the enemy, except with warp spiders.

So use your warp spiders to shoot then charge and tie up enemy units, hit & run out on their turn and do it again.

Have you fielded the Crimson Death against Flying Daemons and whatnot yet? In terms of raw damage output against FMCs it literally cannot get better than that, so I'm curious to find someone who has actually played that matchup to hear how it went.

In terms of Tau, my meaning was that with the Ghostkeel etc. they will have absurd cover saves just like ravenwing and nids, with 2+ cover and countermeasures making you snapfire at them, so it will be another army to add to the list to deal with.

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Offline The Reborn

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Re: Help ignoring cover
« Reply #16 on: November 2, 2015, 10:12:19 AM »
My answer would be to assault these units, rather than wasting firepower on them.   There's a useful CC thread on this board right now in fact that gives a few ideas on how to make Eldar CC work for you. :)

Offline Partninja

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Re: Help ignoring cover
« Reply #17 on: November 2, 2015, 05:24:02 PM »
Thank you. I do appreciate your reply, but I'm hoping for a little more than a list.

I understand what tools there are, but how are people using them? I'm looking for more of gameplay tips, or preferences people have in their lists.


I'm a little confused about this. You're asking how we are getting around cover saves. The immediate answer is the items/units with access to tools that do this. Wanting to know HOW to use these seems like a silly question. You move them towards the enemy, and shoot. I would assume this goes without saying.

You then list units you normally use, none of whom have cover ignoring weapons.

This is why listing the tools is the only answer.

6x Dragons with a Dragon's breadth flamer Exarch is an excellent unit. 5 vanilla dragons can pop a tank just fine, then the Exarch has the heavy flamer template to ignore cover. Dual purpose unit to get a template weapon in there but can still hunt armor just fine.

A unit of Storm Guardians with 2x flamers (I always suggest a Warlock even with random powers) in a Serpent is an excellent objective clearing unit. The serpent shield and flamers will easily remove squads from objectives in terrain, and then claim it themselves (obsec helps here). Serpent keeps them alive as well as contributing to the damage when the shield is dispersed at that crucial moment. Throw a Lance or EML on there and the serpent does double duty as well.

I always like to include a unit of 6x Swooping Hawks in my lists lately. One of them usually an Exarch with the Sun Rifle. Their grenade packs ignoring cover, combined with the amount of shots that come from the las blasters can do some damage even to T4 models.

Offline Rx8Speed

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Re: Help ignoring cover
« Reply #18 on: November 3, 2015, 11:28:08 AM »
I've been running a hemlock, a couple farseers on bikes each with psychic shreik and a unit of d-scythe wraithguard. I put the wraithguard in a waveserpent and usually get out and blast someone by turn 3. Turn 2 or 1 if there is anything close by (like nearly anything coming out of a drop pod). The farseers advance from one LOS blocking terrain to the next and will jump out and shriek at something dug into cover and then hop back behind LOS blocking terrain. The hemlock just flies around being a d!ck. Drop nukes on a vehicles and then shriek at an infantry unit.

Offline gangrel767

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Re: Help ignoring cover
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2015, 08:54:53 AM »
Thank you. I do appreciate your reply, but I'm hoping for a little more than a list.

I understand what tools there are, but how are people using them? I'm looking for more of gameplay tips, or preferences people have in their lists.


I'm a little confused about this. You're asking how we are getting around cover saves. The immediate answer is the items/units with access to tools that do this. Wanting to know HOW to use these seems like a silly question. You move them towards the enemy, and shoot. I would assume this goes without saying.

You then list units you normally use, none of whom have cover ignoring weapons.

This is why listing the tools is the only answer.

6x Dragons with a Dragon's breadth flamer Exarch is an excellent unit. 5 vanilla dragons can pop a tank just fine, then the Exarch has the heavy flamer template to ignore cover. Dual purpose unit to get a template weapon in there but can still hunt armor just fine.

A unit of Storm Guardians with 2x flamers (I always suggest a Warlock even with random powers) in a Serpent is an excellent objective clearing unit. The serpent shield and flamers will easily remove squads from objectives in terrain, and then claim it themselves (obsec helps here). Serpent keeps them alive as well as contributing to the damage when the shield is dispersed at that crucial moment. Throw a Lance or EML on there and the serpent does double duty as well.

I always like to include a unit of 6x Swooping Hawks in my lists lately. One of them usually an Exarch with the Sun Rifle. Their grenade packs ignoring cover, combined with the amount of shots that come from the las blasters can do some damage even to T4 models.

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