News: No news is good news...

Login  |  Register

Author Topic: Iyanden Lists For Review  (Read 6338 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Gwaihir

  • Infinity Circuit
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2830
  • Country: 00
Iyanden Lists For Review
« on: March 26, 2008, 08:37:15 PM »
I will post a few Iyanden lists in this thread for review and addition to the big list of lists.  My lists are all comers lists with a focus on wraithguard units.  I will have a variety from more competive lists with some of the powerful (or "overpowered" depending on your view) units, to lists that minimize the use of those units.  Generally the lists are hybrid lists though they have a primary focus on foot units.

This first list is an 1850 list.

HQ

--Fa'alorath (Eldrad)--210 pts
--Autarch, Jetbike, Fusion Gun, Power Weapon--120 pts

Troops

--10x Wraithguard, Spiritseer with Conceal--396 pts
--10x Wraithguard, Spiritseer with Conceal--396 pts

Elites

--5x Fire Dragons, 1x Exarch with DBFlamer and Crack Shot--118pts
--5x Harlies, 3x Kisses, 1x Troupe Master with Power Weapon, 1x Shadowseer with Kiss, 1x Deathjester--216 pts

Fast Attack

--1x Vyper, 2x Shuriken Cannons--60 pts

Heavy

--1x Falcon with Star Engines, Vectored Engines, Spirit Stones, 2x Shuriken Cannons--195 pts
--1x Warwalker, 2x Eldar Missile Launchers--70 pts
--1x Warwalker, 2x Eldar Missile Launchers--70 pts

Total--1850

Thanks Moc for the suggestion below.  I'll add a few background and tactical comments.  These comments basically apply to each list I post here.  If there is a change I'll make note of it.

Fluff

My craftworld is craftworld Fa'alnor.  It is guided by farseer Fa'alorath a gifted farseer who uses his prophetic visions to actively guide the forces of the craftworld in efforts to manipulate the future.  This manipulations are often subtle and involve much more than simply conquering the foe on the field of battle.  Because of this the military forces of the craftworld generally look much different than traditional craftworld forces and are broken up into two basic forces.

One force focuses primarily on raid and hit and run tactics relying on speed to get the job done.  This force is often dispatched to capture large numbers of mon keigh.  The captives serve one of two purposes.  Some are simply used for training purposes, forced to fight so that the opposition learns how they fight.  Others are intended to be reassimlated into their native culture, and are destined to become great leaders who will turn the tide of future battles.  In this way craftworld Fa'alnor is able to avoid large furture battles, by manipulating the military forces of the other races.  Before being reassimlated the captives have their memories of the Eldar erased.  They retain the skills acquired (often specializing in fighting against a particular foe), and have false memories implanted with respect to how those skills were acquired.

In game terms, this element of the craftworlds force's fight with the rules of the dark eldar.  It has a few unique aspects whose fighting style, skills and equipment are similar in nature to those of wyches, incubi and even mandrakes.  To all but the most knowledgable, these forces are indistinguishable from the dark eldar on the field of battle.  This is an intentional effort by the craftworld, and allows it to operate without drawing attention to itself.  The primary color of these forces is dark green with a dark purple being a secondary color.

Because so many of the professional fighters of the craftworld are a part of the raiding force, the numbers of traditional aspect warriors are limited.  This leads to a significant dependance on wraith units when the force fights in a more traditional manner, and the forces will often be similar to the forces of the better known Iyanden craftworld.  It is often the case that when this force takes to the field of battle, the wraithguard and their seers outnumber the guardian and aspect warriors combined.  The primary colors of these forces are bright yellow and dark green, orange is a secondary color.

Fighting Style:

When the traditional craftworld forces fight, the battle plan revolves around the wraithguard.  Typically two units of 10 are fielded.  They are led by a warlock with conceal, and supported by Fa'alorath himself, or by two of the lessers farseers.  This forms the bulk of the army. 

Other elements are present to support the guard.  Harliquins will often accompany the guard to ensure that enemy assault forces do not tie up the guard in close combat.  The Harliquins and guard often work together to effeciently dispatch almost any foe.  The guard hold the foe in place while the Harliquins hop in sweep the kill zone then hop back out only to repeat the process until the entire enemy unit is dispatched.  This tactic can often be used to eliminate strong threats to the guard such as powerfists by focusing the harliquin assault near the fist.  The Harliquins do not run in front of the forces choosing instead to advance with the guard and their death jester lays down fire during this steady advance.

One danger the force faces is a foe who chooses to steadily retreat from the core of the force.  The falcon with its dragons, the vyper, autarch and the warwalkers all work to limit the ability of the foe to pull away.  They also focus on eliminating and/or neutralizing armored threats to the guard in the early stages of the battle before the guard can get close enough to be effective.

The power of the wraithguard units and nearby harliquins usually discourages any foe thinking of advancing.  Becuase of this the force is often forced to advance itself in order to clear the field of the enemy.

The Enemy:

The forces of craftworld Fa'alnor have a fair chance of facing just about any enemy force in the 40k universe and have battled Grey Knights, Tyranids, Tau, Necrons, Black Templars, Chaos, Marines, Sisters of Battle, Orks, Blood Angels and Imperial Guard.  Even the rare Dark Eldar are potential opponents.  Though I rarely have the time to devote to an entire day for a rogue trader tournment, my opponents are often using the lists that they use for those tournaments, and we play using scenarios that are used in the tournaments.  The force is desgined to be used in those tournmeants.

Gaming Considerations:

The autarch is there in part to ensure that the support for the guard arrives quickly if required to be in reserve by the mission.  The warwalkers give early added firepower in missions where most of the force is in reserve.  The large powerful guard units are my compulsory troops and will start on the battle in any mission and in sustained attack missions it is a virtual certainty that they will only be destroyed once if at all.  Much of what is in reserve is able to move onto the board and to where it needs to be quickly because of its speed and can be useful the turn it enters play.  No units are incabable of firing the turn they enter play.

With limited units that need to hide on the first turn (the falcon, walkers and vyper) it isn't too hard to hide particularly since the walkers and vyper don't need much to hide behind.

Boards typically use the 25% terrain convention with large blocks of ruins being a very common feature.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2008, 12:06:02 PM by Gwaihir »


Read the story behind custom titles and tell us about yours.


"You cannot win tommorow, for you do not know why we fight today."  --Farseer Fa'alorath, Craftworld Fa'alnor-The Fate Weavers.

Offline moc065

  • Infinity Circuit / Necrontyr Lord / KoN Warlord
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8827
  • Country: ca
  • King of the Preemptive Strike
    • klucas.piczo.com
Re: Iyanden Lists For Review
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2008, 09:14:02 AM »
moc-score

1.. Anti-tank potential: Well every unit has some anti-tank potential and much of it is pretty serious at that, so Excellent (1)
2.. Anti-MEQ potential: Not the Standard AP=3 weaponry; but Wraithcannons, Fusion Guns, and St=6+ shooting combined with plenty of Rending and/or high strength attacks can be wicked on MEQ, Very Good (.9)
3.. Anti-Horde potential: Again not exactly what many would consider the typical anit-horde tools; but if you look close the "Holding" units can take a lot while the rest of the army works on almost any horde in the appropriate fasion, Orkz with multiple PK's could stil be an issue; but overall its Good (.8 )
4.. Ranged Firepower potential: Wicked Variety of Long, Mid and Short ranged firepower, Very Good (.9)
5.. Assault potential: Not overly assault dedicated; but it can certainly recieve a Charge and certain combo's can put out some serious assault punch (FD's, Harlies, Falcon [Leap-frog] with Autarch to back them all up), etc. so overall I think in a round about way its Average (.6)
6.. Scoring Units / point level: 8 Scoring units is a little low for 1850pts so its Slightly Below Average (.5)
7.. Durability or Resilience: No doubt this has the potential to be very resilient, especially if certain combo's come into play and/or there is a touch of terrain, so overal its Very Good (.9)
8.. Flexability: A little predictable although Big-E can certainly offset this, as well as few other nuaunses, so overall I htink its Good (.8 )
9.. Mission Capabiliy: Unless your forced to do a complete agressive style, this list has most missions covered very well, so overall I would say Very Good (.9)
10. Dynamics and/or Theme: I don't see a Wraithlord anywhere and Big-E is more Ulthwe than Iyanden in my eyes; but the supporting units are very complimentary to the troops (which are certainly Iyanden) and the dynamics certainly have potential, overall I would say its Above Average (.7 )

Rating = 8.2/10 Others may score it differently; but I would say that this list certainly has solid potential in any environment, and has enough diversity to be very effective and be fun for both players.

Oh and Gwaihir, if your posting other lists for revue, then please set up a post with your Craftworld Fluff, and tacitcs and then simply link to that post so you don't have to re-write it all everytime. 

CaHG

« Last Edit: March 28, 2008, 06:51:18 AM by moc065 »
Join POC: Saim-Hann
or Read the Guide to Eldar
or read the Guide to Necrons


And Click here if you like Magic The Gathering

Offline Chaplain Swordwind

  • Infinity Circuit | Painboy
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1849
  • Country: us
  • Faith is my shield, the Wailing Doom is my sword!
    • Click here for generic Math-Hammer tool.
Re: Iyanden Lists For Review
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2008, 10:44:51 AM »
I too will offer a Rating for your list, using the format I described in the Eldar "Big List" thread.

Moc, I must say I like your rating system.  It is much simpler than mine, but it still covers everything I do.  I'm guessings yours is not quite as mathematically based as mine is, but that just means you can evaluate lists much faster than I can.   ;)

Chaplain Swordwind's rating for this List: 

Durability:  1.5 / 2
Lethality:  1.5 / 2
Mobility: 1 / 2
Synergy: 1 / 2
Utility: 1.5 / 2

Total:  6.5 / 10

The method I used to rate this list is described in detail here.

I must say that I am suprised you list did not come out higher than that.  Just eyeballing the list I would have put it at about a 7.5 or 8 out of 10.  But then, the weakness of my rating system is that it really does not describe the interaction of units very well.  For example, I gave the Wraithguard 1 out of 2 possible points for Synergy, as they function very well on their own but provide no direct bonus to another unit.  I imagine they probably draw a huge amount of fire, thus boosting the survivability of your more fragile units.  However, that is based on decisions made by your opponent, so I really cannot quantify that in my assessment.

If I had left my system as rounding to whole numbers, instead of half numbers, your list would have rated higher.  So would my own.   :-\  I just thought that rounding to half numbers instead of whole numbers would provide a more precise evaluation.  One thing that would have boosted your rating in my system would be to pair the Warwalkers into a single FOC.  But that reduces their flexibility.  So there you have it; my system is not perfect, and that is why there are three of us doing this rating thing.   ;)

EDIT:  By the way I just wanted to point out that your Fire Dragons should cost 113, not 118.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2008, 03:23:09 PM by Chaplain Swordwind »
"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the unprepared.

Join the Swordwind!


My Eldar Project

Chaplain Swordwind is right about, ehm...everything.

Offline Gutstikk

  • Infinity Circuit | Title here to be dreaded 'til further notice. Rummy's Deepstriking Pylon
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7829
  • Country: 00
  • I am a Wolf.
Re: Iyanden Lists For Review
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2008, 08:34:30 PM »
Your list has been selected for inclusion in the Big List of Eldar Lists project! You will be receiving a score from me using the 5/5 system as outlined in the Big List of Eldar Lists in the stickies on this board. Following is the critique I have given:

Background: 1
Consider me impressed. This reads more like a tactical article on how to use a specific Iyanden army than as a simple army list. Your material is innovative and new, and your unit selection and fighting style make sense given the nature of the army. You also include your reasons for selecting each unit, along with a description of where you play and what sort of environment you play in. You've covered all aspects of this area fully, and I greatly enjoyed reading the story behind the force.

Composition: 1
Your points are very evenly distributed across your FOC, with the exception of fast attack. That makes sense though, as you are primarily focusing on an infantry army with some mobile support and end up fielding exactly that. Except for your Vyper your units are capable of damaging every potential enemy, but hordes are going to give you a hard time as you lack volume of fire and won't make many swings in combat. Still, given the constraints you've set on yourself by choosing to have your Wraithguard outnumber the rest of your models, you've probably hit as close the mark as possible. A scatterlaser in place of the second EML on the walkers might not be a bad move.

Utility: 1
The Harlequins are probably the one over-upgraded unit in your army, and it's mostly due to the inclusion of the Troupe Master. As they do not seem to be working directly with the Autarch, those power weapon hits seem to lack some decided punch; throwing the Autarch into the same combat changes this dramatically. The rest of your army is as economical as it can be, and I think that overall you've done a good job of squeezing every last ounce of effect from the points you have available with a judicious hand.

Flexibility: .5
The main problem with this list is its limited variety of units, due to the massive investment required to field the double-guard unit. With so many points tied into Wraithguard there is not much else present, and with the proper usage of a limited quantity of units this army will get beat up very quickly. You will need to act immediately against fast enemy assault squads; a single bike team with a power fist will eat through the wraithguard; add to that a single AT team and the combination could prove disastrous. You only have one Harlie squad to bail out both wraithguard teams and they cannot be in both combats at once, so you'll have to use them quite carefully. Additionally, because so much of your army is wraithguard, the enemy only needs a single unit that is effective against whatever in your army is not Wraithguard to effectively shut its target down. Play carefully.

Ingenuity: 1
You've offered a good account of how you will use the units to work together, as well as considering some of your weaknesses. You could take this further by highlighting what you'd do given the worst-case scenario match, especially given the wide variety of opponents you are likely to face. With so many threats to consider and so many of your models sharing a single weakpoints it's necessary to consider a range of strategies. Fortunately, you've outlined a couple different approaches, and this gives me confidence in your ability to consider where you might take hits during the game. Some of your combos are pretty interesting as well, and I like that you use the Harlies to aid your force, rather than to be pivotal in it - especially as they are quite good at getting rid of the powerfists your wraithguard so rightly fear.

Total Score: 4.5, for an excellent list
This army list made for a great read, made me think about some approaches to the game I don't normally consider [lacking the practice], and made me feel that I could pick up your army and expect to perform fairly well by following your proposed gameplan. In short, it contains just about everything you'd want in an army list. Well done.
« Last Edit: April 1, 2008, 08:10:06 AM by Gutstikk »

Offline Gwaihir

  • Infinity Circuit
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2830
  • Country: 00
Re: Iyanden Lists For Review
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2008, 09:31:21 PM »
I thought about it a bit and there isn't really a point in having the modified first list which was the same but for the addition of a few extra points.  The following is a 2000 point list which differs in some significant ways from the first, though many of the elements are the same.

The following list is an effort to really focus on the wraith theme, avoid the typical "overpowered"/"broken"/cheesy units, yet maintain a solid and competitive list.  In this list I have deliberately avoided Falcons and Eldrad.  These being two things that draw much ire from many opponents, and being units that some Eldar players feel dirty about using for various reasons, I have attempted to adjust the support around my core wraithguard troops units.  I have left the harliquin squad which does draw some ire, but without the Falcon transport doesn't quite inspire the same level of loathing.

Dropping Eldrad, but still considering fortune to be indispensable for both wraithguard squads, I am essentially forced to take two farseers.  This means that the autarch has to be dropped which makes the list moderately less effective in missions that involve escalation of some sort.  Also the fortune casting is a bit less reliable and there is the ever present threat of a farseer blowing up his own head.  On a positive tactical note, the two squads can operate more independantly without losing the benefit of fortune.

This list still fits well with my craftworld's background as described in the first post of this thread.  There is still a minimal use of aspect warriors and guardians.  Wraith units and their psycher support outnumber guardians and aspect warriors 26-14 (harliquins not added to the total as they are neither aspect warrior nor guardians).

This list involves a solid core comprised of the wraithguard units and wraithlords which is supported by faster elements capable of assault and harrassment of the enemy.  The harliquins and shining spears are the cc specialists.  Their ability to use hit and run effectively is enhanced when fighting in concert with wraithguard holding units.

The List:
HQ
*Farseer, Fortune, Runes of Warding--100 pts
*Farseer, Fortune--85 pts

Troops
*10x Wraithguard, Spiritseer with Conceal--396 pts
*10x Wraithguard, Spiritseer with Conceal--396 pts
*3x Guardian Jetbikes, Shuriken Cannon--76 pts

Elites
*5x Harliquins, Shadowseer, Troupe Master with Powerweapon, Deathjester, 5x Kisses--224 pts

Fast Attack
*3x Shining Spears, 1x Exarch with Shuriken Cannon and Withdraw--192pts
*Vyper with 2x Shuriken Cannons--60 pts
*Vyper with 2x Shuriken Cannons--60 pts

Heavy
*Wraithlord with 2x Flamers, EML and Scatterlaser--135 pts
*Wraithlord with 2x Flamers, EML and Scatterlaser--135 pts
*2x Warwalkers, 4x EMLs--140 pts


Game Play:

This list gives a bit more freedom of movement and independant operation of the wraithguard squads compared to the first.  Both squads have farseers to escort and fortune them.  Both can also be supported by either the harliquins, shining spear or both as well as a wraithlord each.  Essentially the larger force can fight on the battlefield as two smaller forces--one consisting of a guard squad with attached farseer supported by nearby harliquins and a wraithlord, and one consisting of a guard squad with attached farseer supported by nearby shining spears and a wraithlord.  These blocks have a good mixture of ranged firepower, hard hitting cc strength, devastating close ranged fire and staying power in cc.

The two smaller forces are further supported by jetbikes, walkers and vypers which should make careful use of terrain to limit incoming fire while still helping to fend off of thin out opposing forces.  They can also be used to hold objectives and/or make quick boosts to contest objectives near the end of the game.

Of course it is not necessary to split the force and if the situation on the battlefield dictates, the entire force can steadily advance as a solid block.  Again the harliquins and spears provide cc support while the lords and walkers lay down ranged fire.

Hordes can be a bit of a challenge for this force of limited numbers, but some sneaky tricks with vypers or the jetbike unit can be useful in slowing the advance of the hordes.  The wraithguard can also hold large units in place while the spears and harlies hop in and out taking few casaulties and repeatedly gaining the benefits of charging.

I suspect that some may question giving the shuirken cannon to the spear exarch, and I have to say that doing so does go against my natural inclinations in some ways.  That said, there are some significant benefits to giving the squad the cannon.  The Eldar jetbike rule allows the exarch to fire then hide.  He has great BS so will hit often.  Of course the strength of the squad is assault, not shooting. 

On the other hand, assault can be a bit of a weakness as well particularly in the round after charging.  If the squad gets into assault too quickly and has no place to hit and run to, or doesn't go far enough, it will be lost.  The better solution is to be patient, keep the squad hidden, and advance with the guard.  The guard can pin enemy units in place and provide a line of sight blocking combat behind which the spears can hide.  If they wait until the guard lock up the enemy, they can jump out of cc immediately, avoid return fire and charge in the next turn if need be.  The cannon allows them to be useful until it is time to charge.

The backup plan proved useful in a recent game where the squad was able to get behind a dreadnaugh and fire the cannon at the rear armor destroying it.  A charge may have succeeded, but if it didn't the retaliation would have been painful.  I still could have charged had the shooting failed.  There were no good targets for assault, so the shooting proved useful.

The same general reasoning supports the inclusion of the deathjester.  Since 1000 points (guard squads plus seers) are spent on 12" guns, it is helpful to squeeze in as much supplemental firepower into the rest of the list as possible.  Since the cannons for the deathjester, vypers, bikes and spears are so cheap, they are a good way to supplement the mid ranged firepower that otherwise would be lacking.
« Last Edit: April 7, 2008, 10:13:13 AM by Gwaihir »


Read the story behind custom titles and tell us about yours.


"You cannot win tommorow, for you do not know why we fight today."  --Farseer Fa'alorath, Craftworld Fa'alnor-The Fate Weavers.

Offline Gwaihir

  • Infinity Circuit
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2830
  • Country: 00
Re: Iyanden Lists For Review
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2008, 09:47:00 PM »
Thank you for the comments Chaplain Swordwind.  I can't say that I strongly disagree with your assessments based on the criteria you evaluate. 

While I view the list as being very durable, I expect the dragons, harlies, walkers, vyper and to a lesser extent autarch to all be killed in any given game.  One the other hand, the guard squads, eldrad and falcon (around 1200 points) are rarely dropped to half points and even more rarely killed outright.  This is a bit above half the point being likely to survive, but certainly not everything is real hard to kill.  I disagree with the score in this category a bit, but do understand it.

The lethality score also makes some since since the list is limited in cc potential and cc has the potential to be the most lethal aspect of the game.  I sometimes struggle against lists that try to play keep away so I definately understand not getting full points here.

I can't argue with the mobility score, though I might quibble a bit about the weight given to mobility--I am not sure a full two points is warranted for this aspect of a list compared to others.  The list does have some mobility, everything can move and shoot, but the bulk of the force is quite slow.  A middle of the road mobility score makes sense.

The synergy score is the one I disagree with the most, and I think you have missed the impact the guard have on other units particularly the harliquins.  The harliquins are vulnerable to sustained combat, yet if they hop out, they become vulnerable to shooting.  The guard can stay in combat for a long time without taking significant damage.  The harliquins benefit by charging, sweeping their kill zone thereby taking no return attacks, then hopping out while the guard hold the enemy in place and the combat blocks line of sight to the harlies.  The next turn the harlies can hop in again.  This combo has worked very effectively for me many times.

Scoring lists is tricky.  I have played around with my own scoring system and found that developing it is quite tough.  Thanks for the input.


Read the story behind custom titles and tell us about yours.


"You cannot win tommorow, for you do not know why we fight today."  --Farseer Fa'alorath, Craftworld Fa'alnor-The Fate Weavers.

Offline Chaplain Swordwind

  • Infinity Circuit | Painboy
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1849
  • Country: us
  • Faith is my shield, the Wailing Doom is my sword!
    • Click here for generic Math-Hammer tool.
Re: Iyanden Lists For Review
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2008, 11:50:43 PM »
Thank you for the comments Chaplain Swordwind.  I can't say that I strongly disagree with your assessments based on the criteria you evaluate. 

While I view the list as being very durable, I expect the dragons, harlies, walkers, vyper and to a lesser extent autarch to all be killed in any given game.  One the other hand, the guard squads, eldrad and falcon (around 1200 points) are rarely dropped to half points and even more rarely killed outright.  This is a bit above half the point being likely to survive, but certainly not everything is real hard to kill.  I disagree with the score in this category a bit, but do understand it.

The lethality score also makes some since since the list is limited in cc potential and cc has the potential to be the most lethal aspect of the game.  I sometimes struggle against lists that try to play keep away so I definately understand not getting full points here.

I can't argue with the mobility score, though I might quibble a bit about the weight given to mobility--I am not sure a full two points is warranted for this aspect of a list compared to others.  The list does have some mobility, everything can move and shoot, but the bulk of the force is quite slow.  A middle of the road mobility score makes sense.

The synergy score is the one I disagree with the most, and I think you have missed the impact the guard have on other units particularly the harliquins.  The harliquins are vulnerable to sustained combat, yet if they hop out, they become vulnerable to shooting.  The guard can stay in combat for a long time without taking significant damage.  The harliquins benefit by charging, sweeping their kill zone thereby taking no return attacks, then hopping out while the guard hold the enemy in place and the combat blocks line of sight to the harlies.  The next turn the harlies can hop in again.  This combo has worked very effectively for me many times.

Scoring lists is tricky.  I have played around with my own scoring system and found that developing it is quite tough.  Thanks for the input.


I confess that the synergy score is based largely on my opinion of each unit, but then again I state quite clearly that nothing in my rating system factors in actual tactics.  The way you describe your Wraithguard protecting your Harlies is definitely a good example of synergy in action, but only because you play it that way.  I cannot work out that sort of detail just by reading the list itself, and that is a major shortcoming of my rating system.  As I said, just by eyeballing your list and guessing how units would work together, I would have rated it higher.  The whole is always greater than the sum of its parts.

As for mobility carrying as much weight as it does... well, that's just my preference.  Mobility creates tactical options, and to me that is significant.

On the whole I think my rating system is balanced, though perhaps too rigid.  Your list is one of many that I am sure are much stronger than my numbers will suggest.  As a matter of fact, I am relatively sure I won't see any lists that score higher than 8 on my system, simply because every unit has to compromise somewhere, so none of the units in our codex do well enough at everything to max out the score.

Even if my system were perfect, and the relative strength of every list could be calcuated precisely by using it, it still wouldn't matter.  Sound tactical decisions and gaming experience are far more important than the power of the list itself.  And that right there will win you plenty of games I'm sure.   :)
"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the unprepared.

Join the Swordwind!


My Eldar Project

Chaplain Swordwind is right about, ehm...everything.

Offline moc065

  • Infinity Circuit / Necrontyr Lord / KoN Warlord
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8827
  • Country: ca
  • King of the Preemptive Strike
    • klucas.piczo.com
Re: Iyanden Lists For Review
« Reply #7 on: April 3, 2008, 03:05:47 PM »
Quote
HQ
*Farseer, Fortune, Runes of Warding--100 pts
*Farseer, Fortune--85 pts

Troops
*10x Wraithguard, Spiritseer with Conceal--396 pts
*10x Wraithguard, Spiritseer with Conceal--396 pts
*3x Guardian Jetbikes, Shuriken Cannon--76 pts

Elites
*5x Harliquins, Shadowseer, Troupe Master with Powerweapon, Deathjester, 5x Kisses--224 pts

Fast Attack
*3x Shining Spears, 1x Exarch with Shuriken Cannon and Withdraw--192pts
*Vyper with 2x Shuriken Cannons--60 pts
*Vyper with 2x Shuriken Cannons--60 pts

Heavy
*Wraithlord with 2x Flamers, EML and Scatterlaser--135 pts
*Wraithlord with 2x Flamers, EML and Scatterlaser--135 pts
*2x Warwalkers, 4x EMLs--140 pts

moc-score

1.. Anti-tank potential: Every unit has dedicated anti-tank potential or can support with side/rear armour potential so this department is fully covered, Excellent (1)
2.. Anti-MEQ potential: To the untrained eye this list looks week here; but if you pick out all the "Rending", AP=3 or better shooting, Power Weapons, Mass high Str shooting/assault you will see that this department is actually very well covered, Very Good (.9)
3.. Anti-Horde potential: There are a few units (although small) that can be used to slow a horde down, and there is a decent mix of ranged, mass fire, and assault potential units to fill out most things to deal with Hordes, Good (.8 )
4.. Ranged Firepower potential: Aside from the Wraithguard, the whole army has a working range of 30+" so I would say that its dependant on how its used but overal its, Good (.8 )
5.. Assault potential: The Harlies and Spears can both be very offensive assault units while the WG, can certainly deal with most assaults that come at the army, the trick will be to coordinate the faster units with the slower ones; but overall this army has assault fairly well covered, Good (.8 )
6.. Scoring Units / point level: 10 Scoring Units at 2K is about, Average (.6)
7.. Durability or Resilience: There are some "soft" units like the Vypers; but in general the units are very resilient or have the capability to use range, terrain to avoid the enemy, so overall its, Very Good (.9)
8.. Flexibility: Now here I do see a few issues, certain very fast enemies will run circles on this list and pick away at it from the parimiter. Of course this requires some tactical expertice by the opponent but in compitition you better except its relative slow speed and set-up and work to off-set for it. Overall though I think the army is fairly flexible and I rate it as, Above Average (.7)
9.. Mission Capability: I don't see it having too many missions that it can't deal with, so I would say its, Good (.8 )
10. Dynamics and/or Theme: I really like the fact that there is not a "Big-E" figure leading this army, and because it uses a lot of the "Old School" hard Iyanden style along with very synergetic 4th Ed ways to make it come together, I feel that not too many players could say its far out of theme. The Shining Spears are the only Aspect (and I wish they weren't there in this regard; but they add too much to be outright chopped, and a second Harlequin Unit would not really be that fittig either). So overall I would say that this list is easily recognized as "Iyanden" and it certainly has dynamics and synergy, so overall I rate it as, Very Good (.9)
 
Rating = 8.2 Others may score it differently; but I think this list is certainly battler ready and that it would be fun to use and probably win a lot more games than it looses. It does not have as high a "Massacre" potential as some lists; but its also won't get "Wiped-out" very often either.

CaHG

« Last Edit: April 7, 2008, 06:41:07 AM by moc065 »
Join POC: Saim-Hann
or Read the Guide to Eldar
or read the Guide to Necrons


And Click here if you like Magic The Gathering

Offline Gutstikk

  • Infinity Circuit | Title here to be dreaded 'til further notice. Rummy's Deepstriking Pylon
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7829
  • Country: 00
  • I am a Wolf.
Re: Iyanden Lists For Review
« Reply #8 on: April 3, 2008, 04:19:10 PM »
Your list has been selected for inclusion in the Big List of Eldar Lists project! You will be receiving a score from me using the 5/5 system as outlined in the Big List of Eldar Lists in the stickies on this board. Following is the critique I have given:

Background: 1
Once again you have included a wealth of information as well as rational support for the selections in your list in light of your background restrictions and the needs of your army list. In reading this, many players would be able to get a feel for the tactics implemented as well as the feel of the army, and understand why it has been designed as such and how it should be used. I think you have addressed this area very well.

Composition: 1
Very careful unit selections to keep in line with your background material and yet every part still works together quite well in relation to the whole. In some ways your list benefits from the loss of Eldrad. You've got 4 good assault units between the wraithlords and the spears and harlies, which is good enough at this level. You've got some mobility to make up for your slower squads, allowing you to take advantage of your movement phase, and you have quite a few good shooting units, making up for quantity with higher strength and mobile mid-ranged shots. This list should perform well in a wide variety of missions and mission levels, in all game phases, and against most armies.

Utility: 1
In this list it is difficult to buy unnecessary upgrades, and when you have bought upgrades [such as secondary wraithlord weapons or in the harlie squad] their inclusion has been justified, and still kept on the affordable side. The list has a very streamlined feel to it and should be very efficient, making the implementation of tactics come a little more freely in the heat of battle.

Flexibility: 1
Where this list might face problems is it's vulnerability through low model count and the inclusion of models that are susceptible to the ever-present threat of powerfists. At this level it wouldn't be too hard for a few units with powerfists and some AT rounds to hit your lines and do some severe damage, provided they were mobile. The units that are more mobile in this army are still low in numbers, making every casualty painful. All units except for the jetbike team and vypers are capable of handling any potential threat. You will not like the Ork Biker army should you have to face it, though it also will not like you due to your weaponry. These criticisms aside, against almost any other enemy you should expect not to lose much ground, and weather a lot of damage, so all in all, I think you get high marks here.

Ingenuity: 1
I could do with a bit more mention of how you handle the enemy powerfists sans mindwar, but since you address some of your susceptibilities [hordes] and the weaknesses of some units [spears and harlies], as well as outlining in great detail the general approach to playing this army on the field, you've earned high marks [and hopefully inspire others to address their weaknesses!]. Which means:

Total Score: 5, for a perfectly-presented list!
However, this does not make you invincible. What it does mean is that most players should be able to read your army list as you've rpesented it and expect to get a high degree of success in using it, which is especially helpful considering how much such an army would cost outside of Ebay. You've done a great service for Iyanden and Iyanden-ish armies everywhere!

Congratulations on what I believe is my first perfect 5 awarded! Others may be comfortable missing a half-point or so to ensure they retain their fingertips.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 01:10:27 PM by Gutstikk »

Offline Chaplain Swordwind

  • Infinity Circuit | Painboy
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1849
  • Country: us
  • Faith is my shield, the Wailing Doom is my sword!
    • Click here for generic Math-Hammer tool.
Re: Iyanden Lists For Review
« Reply #9 on: April 3, 2008, 11:12:21 PM »
The List:
HQ
*Farseer, Fortune, Runes of Warding--100 pts
*Farseer, Fortune--85 pts

Troops
*10x Wraithguard, Spiritseer with Conceal--396 pts
*10x Wraithguard, Spiritseer with Conceal--396 pts
*3x Guardian Jetbikes, Shuriken Cannon--76 pts

Elites
*5x Harliquins, Shadowseer, Troupe Master with Powerweapon, Deathjester, 5x Kisses--224 pts

Fast Attack
*3x Shining Spears, 1x Exarch with Shuriken Cannon and Withdraw--192pts
*Vyper with 2x Shuriken Cannons--60 pts
*Vyper with 2x Shuriken Cannons--60 pts

Heavy
*Wraithlord with 2x Flamers, EML and Scatterlaser--135 pts
*Wraithlord with 2x Flamers, EML and Scatterlaser--135 pts
*2x Warwalkers, 4x EMLs--140 pts

Game Play:

This list gives a bit more freedom of movement and independant operation of the wraithguard squads compared to the first.  Both squads have farseers to escort and fortune them.  Both can also be supported by either the harliquins, shining spear or both as well as a wraithlord each.  Essentially the larger force can fight on the battlefield as two smaller forces--one consisting of a guard squad with attached farseer supported by nearby harliquins and a wraithlord, and one consisting of a guard squad with attached farseer supported by nearby shining spears and a wraithlord.  These blocks have a good mixture of ranged firepower, hard hitting cc strength, devastating close ranged fire and staying power in cc.

The two smaller forces are further supported by jetbikes, walkers and vypers which should make careful use of terrain to limit incoming fire while still helping to fend off of thin out opposing forces.  They can also be used to hold objectives and/or make quick boosts to contest objectives near the end of the game.

Of course it is not necessary to split the force and if the situation on the battlefield dictates, the entire force can steadily advance as a solid block.  Again the harliquins and spears provide cc support while the lords and walkers lay down ranged fire.

Hordes can be a bit of a challenge for this force of limited numbers, but some sneaky tricks with vypers or the jetbike unit can be useful in slowing the advance of the hordes.  The wraithguard can also hold large units in place while the spears and harlies hop in and out taking few casaulties and repeatedly gaining the benefits of charging.

I suspect that some may question giving the shuirken cannon to the spear exarch, and I have to say that doing so does go against my natural inclinations in some ways.  That said, there are some significant benefits to giving the squad the cannon.  The Eldar jetbike rule allows the exarch to fire then hide.  He has great BS so will hit often.  Of course the strength of the squad is assault, not shooting. 

On the other hand, assault can be a bit of a weakness as well particularly in the round after charging.  If the squad gets into assault too quickly and has no place to hit and run to, or doesn't go far enough, it will be lost.  The better solution is to be patient, keep the squad hidden, and advance with the guard.  The guard can pin enemy units in place and provide a line of sight blocking combat behind which the spears can hide.  If they wait until the guard lock up the enemy, they can jump out of cc immediately, avoid return fire and charge in the next turn if need be.  The cannon allows them to be useful until it is time to charge.

The backup plan proved useful in a recent game where the squad was able to get behind a dreadnaugh and fire the cannon at the rear armor destroying it.  A charge may have succeeded, but if it didn't the retaliation would have been painful.  I still could have charged had the shooting failed.  There were no good targets for assault, so the shooting proved useful.

The same general reasoning supports the inclusion of the deathjester.  Since 1000 points (guard squads plus seers) are spent on 12" guns, it is helpful to squeeze in as much supplemental firepower into the rest of the list as possible.  Since the cannons for the deathjester, vypers, bikes and spears are so cheap, they are a good way to supplement the mid ranged firepower that otherwise would be lacking.

Rating Pending
"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the unprepared.

Join the Swordwind!


My Eldar Project

Chaplain Swordwind is right about, ehm...everything.

Offline Gwaihir

  • Infinity Circuit
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2830
  • Country: 00
Re: Iyanden Lists For Review
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2008, 02:47:07 PM »
Quote
I could do with a bit more mention of how you handle the enemy powerfists sans mindwar,

If there are several in a unit, I can have a bit of a problem.  The harlies generally are quite useful here though and can help in a couple ways.  One is to get the harlies in BTB with the fist and have no guard models in BTB with it.  This forces the attacks onto the harlies with their invulnerable saves. 

Another is to use a targeted charge having the harlies contact only one enemy model ensuring a powerfist is in the kill zone, but limiting the number of other models in the kill zone.  The harlies will often kill enough to force removal of the fist.

I have also found that fists aren't as bad as they may seem.  The model still has to roll to hit and will usually only hit half the time.  I have on a number of occassions been charged by good sized termie squads with plenty of fists and managed to grind them down.  Being fearless really helps since they have to all be killed before the combat clears.  Meanwhile harlies are hopping in and out causing much devastation while facing little retaliation.  They hide behind the combat between rounds.

Guard are so tough that the fists generally have to do all the work and it takes a while for a fist to plow through guard.  The harlies are usually able to deal with the chargers quickly enough to limit the danger presented by the fist.

The spears also can help in many of the same ways.

I have only had to deal with an ork bike squad once so far and managed to make it run after the first round of shooting.  The missile launchers are useful for denying the FNP roll, the spears also will do significant damage on the charge likewise denying the FNP.  Also, if shooting drops the numbers enough to make them vulnerable to leadership tests then plasma missiles can be used to force pinchecks.

Vypers and the jetbikes can be used to block movement and slow them a bit if necessary.  In the game where I faced the ork bikes the jetbikes stayed with them to keep them running then cut off their retreat and they were killed.

None of this is fool proof though, and a large number of rending or powerfist attacks is one of the things I fear the most with army.

Quote
Congratulations on what I believe is my first perfect 5 awarded!

Thanks.


Read the story behind custom titles and tell us about yours.


"You cannot win tommorow, for you do not know why we fight today."  --Farseer Fa'alorath, Craftworld Fa'alnor-The Fate Weavers.

Offline f.desrochers

  • Wraithlord
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1339
  • Country: ca
  • Lazerous Penguin
Re: Iyanden Lists For Review
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2008, 11:40:34 AM »
Well, here is my list:

Points: 1700
Scoring Units: 8 units

Headquarters

- Farseer Ihr'Vessen w/ ghosthelm, shuriken pistol, witchblade (included), spirit stones, Fortune and Guide

Troops

- Wraithguard x 10
Spirit Seer el-al' Farris w/ shuriken pistol, witchblade (included), Enhance

- Dire Avengers x 10
Exarch al' Dakkar  w/ power weapon and shimmer shield, Bladestorm
Wave Serpent w/ twin-linked shuriken cannon, shuriken cannon, spirit stones, vectored engines

- Guardian Defenders x 10 w/ EML
Spirit Seer el-al' Malladri w/ shuriken pistol, witchblade (included), Conceal

- Pathfinders x 6

Fast Attack

- Vyper w/ shuriken cannon, shuriken cannon, spirit stones

- Warp Spiders x 10
Exarch al' Rakkir w/ powerblades, Withdraw

Heavy Support

- Wraithlord al' Ydrin w/ flamers x 2, wraithsword, brightlance

- Wraithlord al' Qagiri w/ flamers x 2, wraithsword, brightlance

Strategy:  The Farseer goes with the Wraithguard, oft-times flanked by one or both Wraithlords.  The Wraithguard make a bee-line for a central piece of terrain and use it to block incoming fire until they can set-up a 12 inch 'bubble,' ready to draw incoming fire from the opponent's army and receive any charges while in cover.  The Wraithlords keep to terrain for Cover unless required to advance onto objectives or support the Wraithguard.  Deployed behind terrain during deployment, they wait for armour to pop into the open and move forward to engage; the flamers have worked wonders for horde control while the wraithsword helps mitigate their CC abilities.

The Defenders and Pathfinders typically take up positions of support in the back, the Defenders sometimes advancing with the Wraithguard.  The Defenders are almost always ignored and hug terrain to limit incoming fire, while ensuring they have LOS with the EML to enemy armour.  The Pathfinders are golden in hard terrain, picking off elite troops and monstrous creatures.  The Spiders, Vyper and Wave Serpent-borne Avengers are the mobile element for flank rushes, setting up a refused flank, etc.  With a plethora of S6 fire coming from these units, there is little they can't put a major dent into.  The Avengers almost always deploy into hard cover and create a Bladestorming firebase for one turn, the Wave Serpent keeping charges away.  The Warp Spiders can become a counter-assault unit in a pinch, Withdraw allowing them to get out of combat at the end of the enemy's turn.  The Vyper buzzes around terrain in a support role (covering the Serpent's rear-end, etc) or objective grabbing.

The list gives me 8 Scoring Units to play with, a fair amount of firepower and rate of fire for horde control, along with a decent amount of anti-tank weapons.  The footsloggers are resilient if slow, while the mobile portion packs a punch and can move quickly to support changes according to the enemy's intent.  It is a versatile, "all-comers" list - there isn't an army I would not face off with.

;francois
« Last Edit: April 16, 2008, 07:26:04 AM by f.desrochers »
;f.desrochers

 


Powered by EzPortal