Topic: Whats that smell... aka cheese from the codex.

[magenb]

So what cheese nuggest have you stumbledd on so far?


Fire Dragons+Webwaystrike.... So you suddenly have a lot more points to spend since you don't have to take the wave, so why not take  full squad to pop that Predator turn 1 lol.

[The Mattler]

So what cheese nuggest have you stumbledd on so far?


Fire Dragons+Webwaystrike.... So you suddenly have a lot more points to spend since you don't have to take the wave, so why not take  fulkl squad to pop that LoW turn 1 lol.

It depends on the Lord of War you want to pop.  Moreover, point for point, 40 Guardians deployed via Webway Strike is a lot scarier than 20 Fire Dragons to most lists.  Heck, you can take 40 Guardians and a Crimson Hunter for the price of 20 Fire Dragons w/2 Exarchs.  Let's see how they compare against Marine stats.  I threw in 3 Fire Prisms using Linked Fire just for fun; the Fire Prisms are only using their Prism Cannons in the following examples because I assume they're hiding at range and only exposing themselves one at a time to use Linked Fire.

vs. Marines
40 Guardians + Crimson Hunter: 15.37 dead Marines, 31.32 pts/kill
40 Guardians: 13.33 dead Marines, 24.00 pts/kill
20 Fire Dragons w/2 Exarchs: 11.30 dead Marines, 42.49 pts/kill
3 Fire Prisms (Linked, Dispersed): 13.83 dead Marines, 34.71 pts/kill

I separated the Guardians to show how efficient they are at killing infantry.  Over half of the work done by the Shuriken Catapults against Marines is from their rending, and when you shoot at anything squishier than Marines with the Guardians, it just becomes a blenderfest. Note that the versatility of the Fire Prism is roughly comparable to the combined arms of the Guardians + Crimson Hunter.  On the other end of the spectrum, here's what happens when these units shoot a vanilla Wraithknight.

vs. Wraithknight (no Scattershield)
40 Guardians + Crimson Hunter: 11.41 wounds, 42.08 pts/wound
40 Guardians: 7.41 wounds, 43.20 pts/wound
20 Fire Dragons w/2 Exarchs: 27.68 wounds, 17.34 pts/wound
3 Fire Prisms (Linked, Focused): 20.13 wounds, 25.31 pts/wound

As expected, the Dragons are excellent against big targets, although you still need two full squads to kill a Wraithknight (almost three full squads if the WK had a Scattershield, by the way).  Yeah, there's a bit of overkill with the Dragons, but I'm not concerned about it, at least not enough to split fire from the second squad if I was trying to bring it down the Wraithknight in a single turn.  Unfortunately, they're much easier to kill compared to 40 Guardians and a Crimson Hunter, and they don't benefit from Celestial Shield.

Despite only wounding on 6s, the Guardians are almost exactly as efficient at killing Wraithknights as a Crimson Hunter.  Let that sink in.

Also, Fire Prisms are finally good!  However, they require a CP and half movement every turn to be worthwhile.  I used Focused instead of Lance because it's slightly better unless the Wraithknight was in cover, although the higher random damage of Lance could lend itself to more profitable CP re-rolls.

Having said all of that, the single scariest thing I've found with the new Codex is the sheer ease of alpha-striking, which has been the biggest problem in 40k for its entire history.  Aeldari just happen to be even more amazing at it than usual.

[SeekingOne]

As a side-note: when we call something "cheesy" or "OP", we should remember that it's a very relative thing, strongly depending on where you set the standard. For instance, compared to the current Deathwatch Index, pretty much everything we have is at least cheesy and at most totally broken. However, compared to the new Astra Militarum codex, nothing that we have - not even Hemlocks! - even remotely qualifies as "cheesy", and at least half of the stuff that we consider good is actually not good at all.

@magenb

Fire Dragons+Webwaystrike...

I wouldn't call this cheesy because:
1) multiple other armies have the similar thing, so it's almost a commonplace option now;
2) it consumes CP, which are a very limited and, considering other stratagems available to us, a very valuable resource;
3) protecting against this tactic by bubble-wrapping most valuable vehicles with cheaper units is very easy now.

But it's surely a valid and strong option.

@The Mattler
Good breakdown, thanks for posting it!

Also, Fire Prisms are finally good!  However, they require a CP and half movement every turn to be worthwhile.  I used Focused instead of Lance because it's slightly better unless the Wraithknight was in cover, although the higher random damage of Lance could lend itself to more profitable CP re-rolls.

I'd say, Prisms can finally be good - provided you're prepared to take at least 2 of them and spend CP on their stratagem. Lance mode is just bad - in order to be a valid alternative to Focussed it should be doing at least the "roll 2d6 and discard the lowest" type of damage, if not straight 2d6.

Having said all of that, the single scariest thing I've found with the new Codex is the sheer ease of alpha-striking, which has been the biggest problem in 40k for its entire history.  Aeldari just happen to be even more amazing at it than usual.

IMO, even if it is so, it is kind of counterbalanced by the fact that CWE armies will almost invariably have lots of units, and so will be going second in about 2/3 of games (using the Chapter Approved roll-off system).

[The Mattler]

As a side-note: when we call something "cheesy" or "OP", we should remember that it's a very relative thing, strongly depending on where you set the standard.

True, and that's GW's problem; every negative play experience stemming from the rules needs to generate a complaint to GW.  The fact that GW can't seem to get the relative balance of the Codices within at most 10% of each other after three decades of development boggles the mind.  Having said that, I would hope that the egregious imbalances are short-lived in play groups; crushing victories aren't nearly as rewarding when the armies vary widely in efficiency.

I'd say, Prisms can finally be good - provided you're prepared to take at least 2 of them and spend CP on their stratagem. Lance mode is just bad - in order to be a valid alternative to Focussed it should be doing at least the "roll 2d6 and discard the lowest" type of damage, if not straight 2d6.

Agreed.

IMO, even if it is so, it is kind of counterbalanced by the fact that CWE armies will almost invariably have lots of units, and so will be going second in about 2/3 of games (using the Chapter Approved roll-off system).

Not quite.  You're right about the roughly 2/3 when it comes to the chances of getting to choose first turn when you finish deploying first.  However, since the player going second can (and probably should) attempt to seize the initiative, the chances of he player who finished deploying first actually going first is more like 56%.